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Ellard Stark

Does Roose love Ramsay ?

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I'm not sure if he actually cares for his son or he just mildly tolerates him.

 

The way he talked to Theon about Ramsay's origins and Domeric seemed like he was annoyed by the subject but he couldn't find a way out.

 

He doesn't seem amused at the posibility of Ramsay killing Walda's children but he didn't say what he'd do in that case.

 

At times he acts like keeping with Ramsay's actions is a burden for him.

 

Maybe i'm just misreading or perhaps not.

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15 minutes ago, Ellard Stark said:

I'm not sure if he actually cares for his son or he just mildly tolerates him.

 

The way he talked to Theon about Ramsay's origins and Domeric seemed like he was annoyed by the subject but he couldn't find a way out.

 

He doesn't seem amused at the posibility of Ramsay killing Walda's children but he didn't say what he'd do in that case.

 

At times he acts like keeping with Ramsay's actions is a burden for him.

 

Maybe i'm just misreading or perhaps not.

Roose is a sociopath. He doesn’t/can’t love anyone. He just needs an heir to make his plans work. We’ve seen him in the past use his son’s cruelty to his advantage and then distance himself from the actions by blaming Ramsey’s “bastard blood.”

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Is that a joke? Of course he doesn't love him. His "personality" is summed up perfectly by Barbrey Dustin. 

Quote

"Roose has no feelings, you see. Those leeches that he loves so well sucked all the passions out of him years ago. He does not love, he does not hate, he does not grieve. This is a game to him, mildly diverting. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with men. You and me, these Freys, Lord Manderly, his plump new wife, even his bastard, we are but his playthings."

 

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I think that he despises him but he still needs him. Roose doesn't seem like a peerson that loves anyone but he still feels like he appreciates intelligence and he probably believes that Ramsay can end their line. It feels to be like there will be a race between Ramsay and Roose for dominion over House Bolton. They just use each other for now but when the time is right, they will try to backstab each other.

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2 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

I think that he despises him but he still needs him. Roose doesn't seem like a peerson that loves anyone but he still feels like he appreciates intelligence and he probably believes that Ramsay can end their line. It feels to be like there will be a race between Ramsay and Roose for dominion over House Bolton. They just use each other for now but when the time is right, they will try to backstab each other.

Unlike the show i cant see that going well for ramsey

Roose correctly points out all ramseys men are really  his and while strong no one ever taught ramsey how to handle steel correctly ....roose will fuck him up if the swords come out

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52 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Unlike the show i cant see that going well for ramsey

Roose correctly points out all ramseys men are really  his and while strong no one ever taught ramsey how to handle steel correctly ....roose will fuck him up if the swords come out

I agree. Show Ramsay was an evil genius, that's Roose in the books. Book Ramsay is just an incredibly sadistic piece of shit. Ok, his whole gambit with Theon shows a degree of cunning, but it's pretty apparent that he isn't on Roose's level. It's like Amory Lorch taking on Tywin.

Unlike the show, the books actually care about feudal practises- even if Ramsay was a genius, it would be incredibly hard for a bastard, even a legitimised one, to overthrow his father. If he did kill Roose, everyone would see a great opportunity to stamp out the Boltons altogether and slice up their lands, not bow to him as Warden of the North.

I think the thread question is easy to answer. If Ramsay stops being useful to Roose, he will be disposed of. I wouldn't take everything Roose is saying to Theon at face value. He's telling Theon what he wants Theon to know/think. I'm sure the bare bones are true, but I have serious doubts over whether he really will let Ramsay kill any kids he has with Fat Walda. Yes, boy lords are a problem, but so are madmen. 

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12 hours ago, Ellard Stark said:

I'm not sure if he actually cares for his son or he just mildly tolerates him.

 

The way he talked to Theon about Ramsay's origins and Domeric seemed like he was annoyed by the subject but he couldn't find a way out.

 

He doesn't seem amused at the posibility of Ramsay killing Walda's children but he didn't say what he'd do in that case.

 

At times he acts like keeping with Ramsay's actions is a burden for him.

 

Maybe i'm just misreading or perhaps not.

Are you familiar with the theory of Roose knowing the end of the world is coming?  That's why he's dispassionate about life.  He knows winter is coming and he knows it can't be stopped.  He plans to wait out the winter.  He knows civilization is coming to an end. 

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12 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

Is that a joke? Of course he doesn't love him. His "personality" is summed up perfectly by Barbrey Dustin. 

 

I love the Barbrey quote too but I think it gets used as kind of a gospel on Roose and that this might not necessarily be valid. People are complex and I doubt Roose is any different. Even Ramsay has depth to him, I think. I would say that the way Roose talks about Domeric's accomplishments in comparison to Ramsay's faults implies some presence of emotion on Roose's part. A longing perhaps? Regret at the loss of a capable and respectable heir? Grief at the loss of a son he hardly got to know? It is possible. He does say that the leeching takes away all the anger, all the pain. So assuming he is speaking truthfully at all, and he might not, it would indicate that under the surface Roose has some pretty strong emotions going on. Even if you believe the theory that the "old man" in the dungeons of the Dreadfort is actually Domeric, and that Domeric was a bastard of Brandon Stark, Roose could still lament his loss of a capable heir. It could even be that he kept the boy alive in part because he couldn't quite bring himself to end the life of the young man he thought was his son. He didn't kill Ramsay, after all, though I think it is a stretch to imagine Roose would hesitate to end anyone if he thought it was the most expedient course of action.

Let us consider that in public he has a very strange demeanor, always whispering and emotionless. Downright weird at times. However in his scenes in private with Theon and Ramsay he is pretty casual. He is a bit sarcastic and has a sense of humor. Roose is a bit more 'normal' in private. I don't see any reason why he couldn't be ruthless and manipulative of his subjects and rivals and also have at least some genuine affection for his family. Admittedly it is very hard to tell with him as his statement about Walda's children would conflict with that, but then we know that he knows that Theon is a creature to Ramsay and will report all he says, so how are we to interpret anything he says?

His situation and thus motivations are tricky to figure out. He took a huge risk to win power for himself and presumably his dynasty, but in so doing he also exposed his dynasty to the not-so-small prospect of immediate annihilation upon his death. Does a man who maneuvers so carefully through the game of thrones truly not care what comes after? He does think about it with the way he mocks Ramsay's presumed desire to rule the North in light of his open brutality.

Some other observations about Roose would be that he does take it upon himself to reward "Nan" for helping in the capture of Harrenhal. He even knows a bit about how to talk to children, asking her if she likes animals when referring to the Lannisters, Starks, and Lorch. He is also patient with her, even when she is defiant and disrespectful. He threatens to remove the tongue from an eight-year-old who speaks out of turn, but would he really go through with it? Arya seems to think so but that's just her POV. Roose did cut the tongue from a serving man at arms who swore in his presence, but that is a man grown who ought to know better and not a small child.

Now Roose is my favorite character in part because of all these questions about him though I can't say I know the answers. I imagine the truth about him is somewhere in the middle. A human being who has participated in, even orchestrated, some very monstrous and callous acts in a very monstrous and callous world.
 

In the case of Ramsay... no, he definitely doesn't have any love or affection for him. Ramsay has perhaps proven a useful tool in the Bolton rise to power but he is equal parts a burden. A source of rebellion among his new vassals. Likely the murderer of Roose's trueborn heir, a young man who might have been less ruthless but more useful in the long run because of he was well behaved than he could have married "Arya" and not alienated the rest of the North by abusing her. Nor would he have fermented rebellion by terrorizing the very people he expected to one day bend their knees to him. As is said by Galbart Glover, I believe, most men can stomach bending knee to Roose because while manipulative and ruthless he is not a savage beast. I'd imagine they would have an easier time bending knee to Domeric, presuming he was a nicer man than his father. Almost certainly not a worse man.

As well, Ramsay's tales about his father and Reek specify the concept of Roose loving his bastard son and that being the reason for him sending Reek to raise him in the first place. The truth is obviously different and Ramsay knows it... but he wishes otherwise. I think the fact that Ramsay has to tell tall tales about his own backstory regarding his relationship with his father is proof that there is no loving relationship there or any level of genuine concern beyond utility.

Perhaps ironically, I do think there is good reason to suspect that Roose himself is wrong about the identity of Domeric's murderer.

Edited by Sourjapes

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Im one of the very few people who believe Ramsey is innocent of killing Domeric, why would he? His brother seeks him out and is actually intetested in his well being when before he had absolutly noone besides reek. 

 

Ramsey has NO way whats so ever of knowing killing Domeric makes Roose bring him to the dreadfort. Roose is young and can re-marry at any point and produce more legit heird, killing your only way into the family that turned its back on you seems stupid and un needed. 

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1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

Im one of the very few people who believe Ramsey is innocent of killing Domeric, why would he? His brother seeks him out and is actually intetested in his well being when before he had absolutly noone besides reek. 

 

Ramsey has NO way whats so ever of knowing killing Domeric makes Roose bring him to the dreadfort. Roose is young and can re-marry at any point and produce more legit heird, killing your only way into the family that turned its back on you seems stupid and un needed. 

Whilst Domeric lives, then Ramsay has absolutely no chance of inheriting; with Domeric dead there is a slim chance. It's not much of an improvement in his status - but it IS an improvement. And the longer Ramsay lives, and the longer it takes Roose to get new legitimate heirs, the easier they are to kill off in turn. Domeric is the difficult one.

As far as I can see, the only way Ramsay didn't kill Domeric is if Reek did it first.

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20 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I agree. Show Ramsay was an evil genius, that's Roose in the books. Book Ramsay is just an incredibly sadistic piece of shit. Ok, his whole gambit with Theon shows a degree of cunning, but it's pretty apparent that he isn't on Roose's level. It's like Amory Lorch taking on Tywin.

Unlike the show, the books actually care about feudal practises- even if Ramsay was a genius, it would be incredibly hard for a bastard, even a legitimised one, to overthrow his father. If he did kill Roose, everyone would see a great opportunity to stamp out the Boltons altogether and slice up their lands, not bow to him as Warden of the North.

I think the thread question is easy to answer. If Ramsay stops being useful to Roose, he will be disposed of. I wouldn't take everything Roose is saying to Theon at face value. He's telling Theon what he wants Theon to know/think. I'm sure the bare bones are true, but I have serious doubts over whether he really will let Ramsay kill any kids he has with Fat Walda. Yes, boy lords are a problem, but so are madmen. 

Its hard to see what he wants ...he doest seem.to show emotion much except anger...his reaction to ramseys 'games' hint hes secretly much worse!   His casual attitude to the future ruin of his house seems at odds with such a political strategist

Yeah books have the bolton rule.of the north on tenderhooks 

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14 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Im one of the very few people who believe Ramsey is innocent of killing Domeric, why would he? His brother seeks him out and is actually intetested in his well being when before he had absolutly noone besides reek. 

 

Ramsey has NO way whats so ever of knowing killing Domeric makes Roose bring him to the dreadfort. Roose is young and can re-marry at any point and produce more legit heird, killing your only way into the family that turned its back on you seems stupid and un needed. 

Bastards usurping legit kids is a known thing in the asoiaf world

Cats entire reaction to jon is sorta based on the threat he poses there , we hear of hornwoods bastard being possibly legitimised to take control etc

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On ‎9‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 12:35 AM, Ellard Stark said:

I'm not sure if he actually cares for his son or he just mildly tolerates him.

 

The way he talked to Theon about Ramsay's origins and Domeric seemed like he was annoyed by the subject but he couldn't find a way out.

 

He doesn't seem amused at the posibility of Ramsay killing Walda's children but he didn't say what he'd do in that case.

 

At times he acts like keeping with Ramsay's actions is a burden for him.

 

Maybe i'm just misreading or perhaps not.

Roose doesn't love anybody. He is thousands of years old, so to him all humans, even his own children, are like mice to us: they come and go and simply breed more mice. Lady Dustin has it right, but even she does not fully understand why:

Quote

"He does not love, he does not hate, he does not grieve. This is a game to him, mildly diverting. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with men. You and me, these Freys, Lord Manderly, his plump new wife, even his bastard, we are but his playthings."

 

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23 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Unlike the show i cant see that going well for ramsey

Roose correctly points out all ramseys men are really  his and while strong no one ever taught ramsey how to handle steel correctly ....roose will fuck him up if the swords come out

I agree on that. I also prefer a villain with more depth like Roose rather than a bloodthirsty psychopath with no brain like Ramsey so I do hope Roose comes on top...

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1 hour ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Bastards usurping legit kids is a known thing in the asoiaf world

Cats entire reaction to jon is sorta based on the threat he poses there , we hear of hornwoods bastard being possibly legitimised to take control etc

Cats fear is DUMB, she has 5 true born children for F sakes, one of them is 15 and handsom whos obviously gonna get married sooner or later and produce even more heirs. 

 

Killing Domeric does what exactly for Ramsey? At this point Ramsey isnt an acknoweleged bastard like Jon Roose has hidden the fact from the public so why would killing Domeric help him? It would do the opposite you would think lol Roose knows Ramsey killed Domeric because who else could have or would have reason to? So Ramsey commited Westeros greatest crime in the form of kin slaying and usually would have had his head removed but Roose is a sick son of B so he instead rewards his bastard. 

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3 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

I agree on that. I also prefer a villain with more depth like Roose rather than a bloodthirsty psychopath with no brain like Ramsey so I do hope Roose comes on top...

I feel hes sent him out to stannis to die really

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3 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Cats fear is DUMB, she has 5 true born children for F sakes, one of them is 15 and handsom whos obviously gonna get married sooner or later and produce even more heirs. 

 

Killing Domeric does what exactly for Ramsey? At this point Ramsey isnt an acknoweleged bastard like Jon Roose has hidden the fact from the public so why would killing Domeric help him? It would do the opposite you would think lol Roose knows Ramsey killed Domeric because who else could have or would have reason to? So Ramsey commited Westeros greatest crime in the form of kin slaying and usually would have had his head removed but Roose is a sick son of B so he instead rewards his bastard. 

She and others feel bastards are treacherous.....having loads of kids just means more for a lil sneak to kill

 

He has no proof ramsey killed him and if he kills ramsay himself hed be a known kinslayer whonacted on 0 proof  with 0 heirs in his increasing old age ! No ramsey killed off anything that could usurp him without drawing too much suspicion  leaving himself the only possible heir....til the freys jump in

Edited by hodorisfaclessman

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