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US Politics: Donnie and the Mystery of the Anonymous Op-Ed


davos

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40 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

When did the “okay” handsign become a white power hand sign?

Ah, so I see this isn't even a widely known connection in the USA.

It's a bit like Pepe the Frog. I see it in some places and I have a hard time interpreting the person's intent. Are they using it to Troll? Are they using it to signal that they are part of the neo-Nazi movement or sympathetic to it? Are they using it to try to take it back and remove it from its anti-Semitic association? Are they totally unaware of the anti-Semitic connection and just think it's an amusing image? I see it and I have to think, do I judge this person to be an arsehole I should disassociate from or not? And a lot f the time I can't answer because I have no additional information to make a decision. But there is a possibility I have a connection, however indirect to an anti-Semite / neo-Nazi and that makes me feel icky.

 

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21 minutes ago, SkynJay said:

Gamergate, with it's numerous death threats.  The Incel movement, connected to the Toronto attack.  The driving force behind the alt-right.  Yes, it is a cesspit.  And one that hides behind the 'just trolling' defense and anonymity.  

The news goes nuts when a midwest white girl gets recruited by ISIS and overlooks the indoctrination going on in 4chan forums.

 

I quite liked the Contrapoints video on Youtube about Incels. Have you seen it? I'm more inclined to see Incel as a mental health problem distinct from things like racism and misogyny. Though clearly there's serious misogyny as part of it, it goes much deeper to self-esteem, negative self-image, depression, suicide. It's not too dissimilar to a community that develops around self-harm practices. It's a horrible sub-culture, but I think of that list of communities Incels could actually be helped though constructive engagement, unlike the others.

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1 hour ago, SkynJay said:

Gamergate, with it's numerous death threats.  The Incel movement, connected to the Toronto attack.  The driving force behind the alt-right.  Yes, it is a cesspit.  And one that hides behind the 'just trolling' defense and anonymity.  

The news goes nuts when a midwest white girl gets recruited by ISIS and overlooks the indoctrination going on in 4chan forums.

 

Though it's also where the Anonymous movement took root.. it can be linked with occupy wall street, if I remember correctly.

The cesspit is not homogeneous, but anonymity and lack of moderation will draw out speech usually repressed, which will draw in assholes with loathsome worldviews, and impressionable minds can be influenced in a bad way, but it would not be correct to think those forums have any cohesion or even one representative that can defend the actions of one user or another.

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2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

An interesting point.
Are you familiar with Bourdieu's criticism of neo-liberalism? Have I posted this here before?
https://mondediplo.com/1998/12/08bourdieu

No, I have not seen this before -- but it is very good. He foresaw a great deal of what neo-liberalism would do long before these ideas were common.

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Anyway, drawing on Bourdieu's arguments I'd say that today we have a rejection of the very concept of a public interest, and an attempt to define politics exclusively through the individual lense. I'm sure it isn't completely new and that an accomplished historian could find traces of this individualist ideology at various points in the past, perhaps even as far back as ancient Rome or something. But it is very influential today and I think it poses a threat to the fabric of society that is somewhat new because it uses modern consumerism and materialism to prop its twisted philosophical basis.

As to the bolded, the ship may have sailed but like the Titanic, it isn't as unsinkable as it is said to be. The very success of neo-liberalism makes it harder to hide from the masses.

I'm not sure the rejection is due to individualist philosophy so much as a complete lack of trust towards nearly all institutions. Whenever somebody says "public interest" my first thought is that they're trying to appropriate public resources for some private benefit. The same issue gets in the way of fighting neo-liberalism: it's not hidden at all now (there are entire cottage industries analyzing its consequences), but to actually do something about it, the people who would need to all act together are divided along multiple axes (race, gender, controversial positions such as guns and abortion, etc.) with each of the resulting groups distrustful of the others and each one concerned above all with getting what they want. And if there wasn't enough division, both the US and Western Europe are importing more of it. Barring some kind of once-in-a-century leader, it's basically impossible to unite all of these people or even a decently large majority of them and without that, they'll mainly be fighting each other rather than against the 1%.

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I've seen both of those videos with the OK sign. I think the coast guard one was intentional. He glanced at the camera and then casually flashed it and moved his hand  to a different position. The other I was confused about. I couldn't believe it would be intentional in that setting, but I thought it was a very strange position to hold your hand. Then I noticed myself doing the exact same thing just last night. For me it's because I was playing with my fingernails and I realize I kind of do that a lot.

Internet assholes are the worst assholes.

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An essay by Hillary Clinton. Worth a read.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/09/american-democracy-is-in-crisis/570394/

Quote

t’s been nearly two years since Donald Trump won enough Electoral College votes to become president of the United States. On the day after, in my concession speech, I said, “We owe him an open mind and the chance to lead.” I hoped that my fears for our future were overblown.

They were not.

In the roughly 21 months since he took the oath of office, Trump has sunk far below the already-low bar he set for himself in his ugly campaign

 

Quote

There is a tendency, when talking about these things, to wring our hands about “both sides.” But the truth is that this is not a symmetrical problem. We should be clear about this: The increasing radicalism and irresponsibility of the Republican Party, including decades of demeaning government, demonizing Democrats, and debasing norms, is what gave us Donald Trump. 

 

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On Feinstein's treatment of the Ford letter:

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article218542315.html

Quote

“We do think that Feinstein did well by her, and we do think that people took this decision away from her, and that’s wrong,” Ford’s lawyer, Debra Katz, told the New York Times on Sunday.

 

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Why Erick Erickson is a conservative idiot and needs to be generally told to fuck off.

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/17/17869672/supreme-court-brett-kavanaugh-sexual-assault-allegations

Quote

Conservative commentator Erick Erickson put it this way: “The left is perfectly willing to destroy a man’s reputation in order to keep destroying children. They will use a 35 year old uncorroborated, single sourced, 35 year old claim of a woman who first made the accusation in 2012 after Kavanaugh’s name had circulated in the press as a possible Supreme Court pick for Romney in order to protect the right to kill girls in utero.”

So in other words, "the left" by taking Ford's allegations seriously and stating that they deserve a a full and fair hearing is in the wrong here?

What a conservative idiot, though saying "conservative idiot" might be redundant.

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5 hours ago, Altherion said:

I'm not sure the rejection is due to individualist philosophy so much as a complete lack of trust towards nearly all institutions. Whenever somebody says "public interest" my first thought is that they're trying to appropriate public resources for some private benefit. The same issue gets in the way of fighting neo-liberalism: it's not hidden at all now (there are entire cottage industries analyzing its consequences), but to actually do something about it, the people who would need to all act together are divided along multiple axes (race, gender, controversial positions such as guns and abortion, etc.) with each of the resulting groups distrustful of the others and each one concerned above all with getting what they want.

That's kind of my point though. In my view, people defining their interests primarily in terms of gender or race for instance subscribe to a form of identity politics that is fundamentally individualistic. Or at least, significantly more individualistic in outlook than "great narratives" like nationalism or marxism.

And this is part of neo-liberalism. The constant need to redefine the identity of individuals along various axes, most of which will seem materially true. By that I mean that gender and ethnicity have a concrete existence, while nations and classes seem abstract on the surface. Hence the recent successes of ethno-nationalism, which is often easier to grasp than universalist-national narratives.

And the suspicion towards notions of public interest is part of it. While it is true that there are many demagogues out there, one cannot deny that there is such a thing as public interest at various geographical levels: local (city, region), national, and global. The suspicion may have been sown in an insidious way over decades, but in my view anyone who distrusts the very notion has already become a neo-liberal at heart by interiorizing the destruction of society that was put forward by the likes of Thatcher.

And no offense, but I think you are a pretty good example of that. You claim to despise neo-liberalism or identity politics but you have in fact, over several years, been using the rhetoric of neo-liberalism and identity politics on this forum. While I agree with you that the usual liberal-conservative divide is much more artificial than it seems, and somewhat designed to preserve the socio-economic status quo, I still feel that you have been much closer to the neo-liberal doctrine than most contributors here. But I digress, perhaps...

Anyway, neo-liberalism is very good at dividing people. But over time people can only realize that concepts that seemed abstract at first, like class, are actually just as real as race and gender. More real perhaps, in today's setting. As the middle-class keeps shrinking, it becomes harder not to see that the wealth is being sucked from above rather than from below. At least, that's what I want to believe. You might say I'm too optimistic about the intelligence and empathy of the common man.

5 hours ago, Altherion said:

 And if there wasn't enough division, both the US and Western Europe are importing more of it.

That's a very cynical and rather inaccurate way to describe what is happening. The division isn't coming from the outside, it's being fostered from the inside by people who define the public interest in rather narrow terms and fail to see (or deliberately ignore) the bigger picture.

5 hours ago, Altherion said:

Barring some kind of once-in-a-century leader, it's basically impossible to unite all of these people or even a decently large majority of them and without that, they'll mainly be fighting each other rather than against the 1%.

I don't think it's that difficult. But it's different in each country. More importantly, when you talk of a once-in-a-century leader... You are considering sudden change and turmoil. While I'm thinking in terms of slow evolution and gradual awakening. What I mean by that is that the politicians we know are not that remarkable: people like Sanders, Trump, or Ocasio-Cortez represent deeper movements within American society rather than are exceptional leaders*. In the long-run, what Trump represents is far weaker than what Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez do. It's just that i) we might not live to see the outcome of some political confrontations and ii) there may be great darkness before the dawn.

*Ironically, Obama had all the attributes of a great leader. But it turned out he really didn't stand for radical change after all... Or perhaps the time wasn't right yet. He alone would know I suppose.

 

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5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Why Erick Erickson is a conservative idiot and needs to be generally told to fuck off.

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/17/17869672/supreme-court-brett-kavanaugh-sexual-assault-allegations

So in other words, "the left" by taking Ford's allegations seriously and stating that they deserve a a full and fair hearing is in the wrong here?

What a conservative idiot, though saying "conservative idiot" might be redundant.

Do you feel that Karen Monahan’s accusations have been taken seriously?  Does she deserve a full and fair hearing the same as Ford?

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12 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

When did the “okay” handsign become a white power hand sign?

That was actually a good question. I know it has been answered, already so no point in going back to it.

I just felt like saying that in Italy that sign has a somewhat different meaning, which is kinda more fitting for white supremacists.

 

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49 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

Do you feel that Karen Monahan’s accusations have been taken seriously?  Does she deserve a full and fair hearing the same as Ford?

It sounds like they haven't been taken seriously by the Dems and they should be.  

It may be worth noting that Monahan hasn't asked for more of a platform or a 'full and fair hearing', and that she also hasn't asked Ellison to withdraw or for people to not support him.  

I'm glad I'm not a MN voter.  

It's also worth noting that unlike Ellison, Kavanaugh isn't running for office, he's been nominated for a lifetime appointment to the highest court in the US.  Also unlike Ellison, Kavanaugh has the blessings of the part of this country that want to take away women's bodily autononomy.  

So yes Monahan deserves to be believed and heard but unless I'm missing something this seems like whataboutism.  Would you have brought her up in this thread without the accusation against Kavanaugh?  

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5 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

That was actually a good question. I know it has been answered, already so no point in going back to it.

I just felt like saying that in Italy that sign has a somewhat different meaning, which is kinda more fitting for white supremacists.

 

Different cultures ascribe different meanings to various hand signs.  I’d just never heard that the “okay” handsign was a white power hand sign before it was mentioned here.

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Ah, I see the conservatives in here are doing what aboutism and are as oblivious as ever. 

Kavanaugh shouldn't be a judge at any level given how much of a scumbag dirty corrupt piece of shit he is, and because he attempted to rape someone like the smug preppy 80s teen movie villain he comes across as, let alone a judge with a supreme court seat. 

The rape apologism going on to defend him is not shocking, but still no less disgusting.

 

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13 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

When did the “okay” handsign become a white power hand sign?

What others have said, plus it’s also been in the Twitter handle of famous neo-Nazis. It used to be in Richard Spencer’s, for example. And on that note:

This is the heart of the game. If you want to understand Trump’s support, and conservative politics writ large, understand this.

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12 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

She really really wants to vote for him even if it ends her politcal career,  perjury be damned, what’s a little teenage assault? 

If she doesn’t vote for him she loses out on tens of millions in salary and benefits at a cushy conservative “consulting” post senate gig. She wants the millions in bribes  she’s been promised if she puts him on the court.

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Trump’s Penis Looks Like Toad From Mario Kart, Says Stormy Daniels

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-penis-looks-like-toad-from-mario-kart-says-stormy-daniels?ref=home

Quote

“He knows he has an unusual penis,” Daniels writes in a book fittingly titled Full Disclosure. “It has a huge mushroom head. Like a toadstool… I lay there, annoyed that I was getting fucked by a guy with Yeti pubes and a dick like the mushroom character in Mario Kart... It may have been the least impressive sex I’d ever had, but clearly, he didn’t share that opinion.” 

 

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