Regarding Cersei Lannister

[Sourjapes]

I really liked how her character was established in the first book and continued in in A Clash of Kings and a Storm of Swords. Her POV chapters in the following books were entertaining but I have always had one gripe with them: the prophecy thing. I feel that it ruins her character in a way. It is not a necessary addition to make her actions and perspective relatable or believable. I think that everything we need to know about her baseline as a person was very believably put together in A Game of Thrones. She loses her mother at a young age with the birth of her deformed younger brother whom even her father hates. She has a close bond with her twin who is groomed for leadership while she is groomed only to be a wife, despite her desiring so much more and she and her twin being indistinguishable to most people at a young age. When she first meets Roberte she is impressed and awed by this great hero but on their wedding night her humiliates her by whispering the name of another woman. Throughout their marriage he never loves or cares for her or even respects her, instead giving into drunkness and whoring and likely depression. Worse, when drunk or angry he physically abuses her and, medieval notions of married sex aside, forces himself up on her, often as a means of humiliate her brother as well. I think it is no surprise at all that with her backstory and environment for the last 15 or so years she has grown into a cynical, mean, angry, ruthless woman. Her children are hers ans fulfill her revenge fantasies against her husband. As a mother it is only natural that she'd do anything to protect them. When her son is betrothed to a naive little girl I believe the reader can also see how she might have content for her to-be daughter-in-law for being so innocent and ignorant, and perhaps even resentful of this girl for being allowed her silly dreams for so long. In some sense her hostile attitude toward Sansa might also reflect a belief that it is for her own good; Sansa needs to learn the reality of the world and not the songs.

 

Now at no point did I mention the prophecy about her children and a younger, more beautiful queen. I didn't mention it because it isn't necessary. It does two things: makes Cersei a likely murderer from a young age, which means she was probably always a psychopath, and it also gives us a very blunt reason for her to be hateful, paranoid, and downright crazy. Cuz magick. Why? I don't think the prophecy has much depth and it isn't interesting.

 

Thoughts?

[Jeeves]

Most of the view point characters are killers.  The difference I have with Cersei are her reasons for killing.  It's not the deed, it's the coverup.  The coverup nearly killed Brandon Stark.  The deed itself is not that bad when you consider Robert's unfaithfulness.  What Robert was doing is humiliation for Cersei.  But the consequences of the deed is death for her, Jaime, and the children.  A lot of innocent bystanders will get hurt because of the choices Cersei and Jaime made.  

The threat of the valonquar is an example of how prophecy can bite people from behind.  It's like how faith and religion can push people to do horrific things.  Cersei becomes paranoid upon hearing.  It makes her more hateful towards a brother she never liked.   

[Aline de Gavrillac]

Robert was a jerk.  He would still bed other women even if Cersei had been the perfect wife.  But cuckolding your king is a bad choice because it involves the welfare of many people.  It's not only about Jaime, Cersei, and Robert.  The suffering she endured from Robert didn't make her a better person.  I don't blame her for hating him.  But I cannot excuse her cuckolding of him.  Don't even get me started on Jaime.

The prophecy served to further feed the cruelty that she had in her.  She was already a cruel child.  The prophecy simply amplified that cruelty to her little brother.  Pinching his dick in front of their guests is one example.  But I see where you're coming from.  The prophecy was not necessary to set her on this path.    

[Giant Ice Spider]

Tbh, I'm not really that happy with the direction Cersei took in AFFC.

In the first three books, Cersei is portrayed as evil, ruthless, manipulative, but also maternal. She plots against Ned Stark to protect her children, she cries when she finds out Myrcella will be sent to Dorne, Catelyn Stark thinks about how Cersei probably has a maternal instinct, in ASOS Cersei begs Jaime to reconcile with Tywin so she isn't separated from Tommen. We have pretty good evidence that she has a human side, that she does care about her children. Then in AFFC we're told "nope, she's just a power-hungry bitch". She becomes a boring, one-dimensional character, and I almost slept through her chapters.

Anyway, that's my two copper stars.

[Sigella]

I like the prophesy, or what it does for Cersei. It adds a nightmarish quality to her chapters. 

[Geddus]

14 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

When she first meets Roberte she is impressed and awed by this great hero but on their wedding night her humiliates her by whispering the name of another woman.

She had slept with Jaime that same day, before the wedding, and was planning on doing it again after that. Robert saying Lyanna didn't humiliate her, it was just a hit that her enormous pride couldn't take.

And Robert did try to respect her and get close to her (he invited her to go hunting or riding with him) but at that point the damage was already done, Cersei had decided to hate him for the "Lyanna" thing. Bobby B was a dreadful husband, but Cersei was way worse as a wife.

[The Sleeper]

At the start of Feast Cersei finds herself, with more or less everything she wanted. Through her own machinations and fortuitous circumstance, she finds herself the Queen Regent, her illegitimate children on the throne and having prevailed in her rivalry with Tyrion. The price is steep however as in the process she lost a son, Tyrion for all his hatred of Cersei was a staunch supporter of the Lannister cause and she finds her own replacement waiting in the winds. Thus the ambitions and fears that have motivated Cersei become the seeds of her downfall.

The prophecy takes all these elements and wraps them in a supernatural bow, notwithstanding the fact that it is largely self-fulfilling. It is meant to draw our attention to these elements and create visceral impact where such might not have existed with the various disparate threads. The supernatural elements adds the sense of inevitability and the horror atmosphere that Martin loves to splash so liberally. Like Melisandre's shadowbaby and Cat's reanimation. 

Whether it works or not is more or less a matter of taste. 

[argonak]

7 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Tbh, I'm not really that happy with the direction Cersei took in AFFC.

In the first three books, Cersei is portrayed as evil, ruthless, manipulative, but also maternal. She plots against Ned Stark to protect her children, she cries when she finds out Myrcella will be sent to Dorne, Catelyn Stark thinks about how Cersei probably has a maternal instinct, in ASOS Cersei begs Jaime to reconcile with Tywin so she isn't separated from Tommen. We have pretty good evidence that she has a human side, that she does care about her children. Then in AFFC we're told "nope, she's just a power-hungry bitch". She becomes a boring, one-dimensional character, and I almost slept through her chapters.

Anyway, that's my two copper stars.

I don't think its that big of a turn.  We only see her from other people's perspective until then.  We hear how what she loves most about Jamie is that he looks like her.  We see her bedding Lancel because he's a poor woman's Jamie.   Cersei sees her children as an extension of herself, and thats why she loves them.  I think she's a classic Narcissist who finnally in AFFC gets all the power she's always wanted, and lets it consume her. 

But she was always nasty, even as far back as the first book over Jeoffrey getting slapped around by Arya and Mycah.  Cersei is the reason Mycah dies, and Sansa's wolf.  Sansa who never did anything, and is going to marry her son.  That is enough to tell you all you need to know about Cersei.  She murders her future step-daughter's dog over a children's brawl.

 

[zandru]

9 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

In the first three books, Cersei is portrayed as evil, ruthless, manipulative, but also maternal. She plots against Ned Stark to protect her children, she cries when she finds out Myrcella will be sent to Dorne, Catelyn Stark thinks about how Cersei probably has a maternal instinct, in ASOS Cersei begs Jaime to reconcile with Tywin so she isn't separated from Tommen. We have pretty good evidence that she has a human side, that she does care about her children.

This apparent maternal side appears to be part of Cersei's facade. Tyrion notes at some point (I apologize for not having the reference) that Cersei can turn on the waterworks at will. In the later books, we actually get inside her head and learn the truth, at least about how Cersei thinks. She doesn't change all that much, but what we the readers know about her does.

[Giant Ice Spider]

14 hours ago, zandru said:

This apparent maternal side appears to be part of Cersei's facade. Tyrion notes at some point (I apologize for not having the reference) that Cersei can turn on the waterworks at will. In the later books, we actually get inside her head and learn the truth, at least about how Cersei thinks. She doesn't change all that much, but what we the readers know about her does.

Perhaps. It may just be that I mislike the character itself.

[thi4f]

On 9/9/2018 at 8:08 PM, Sourjapes said:

I really liked how her character was established in the first book and continued in in A Clash of Kings and a Storm of Swords. Her POV chapters in the following books were entertaining but I have always had one gripe with them: the prophecy thing. I feel that it ruins her character in a way. It is not a necessary addition to make her actions and perspective relatable or believable. I think that everything we need to know about her baseline as a person was very believably put together in A Game of Thrones. She loses her mother at a young age with the birth of her deformed younger brother whom even her father hates. She has a close bond with her twin who is groomed for leadership while she is groomed only to be a wife, despite her desiring so much more and she and her twin being indistinguishable to most people at a young age. When she first meets Roberte she is impressed and awed by this great hero but on their wedding night her humiliates her by whispering the name of another woman. Throughout their marriage he never loves or cares for her or even respects her, instead giving into drunkness and whoring and likely depression. Worse, when drunk or angry he physically abuses her and, medieval notions of married sex aside, forces himself up on her, often as a means of humiliate her brother as well. I think it is no surprise at all that with her backstory and environment for the last 15 or so years she has grown into a cynical, mean, angry, ruthless woman. Her children are hers ans fulfill her revenge fantasies against her husband. As a mother it is only natural that she'd do anything to protect them. When her son is betrothed to a naive little girl I believe the reader can also see how she might have content for her to-be daughter-in-law for being so innocent and ignorant, and perhaps even resentful of this girl for being allowed her silly dreams for so long. In some sense her hostile attitude toward Sansa might also reflect a belief that it is for her own good; Sansa needs to learn the reality of the world and not the songs.

 

Now at no point did I mention the prophecy about her children and a younger, more beautiful queen. I didn't mention it because it isn't necessary. It does two things: makes Cersei a likely murderer from a young age, which means she was probably always a psychopath, and it also gives us a very blunt reason for her to be hateful, paranoid, and downright crazy. Cuz magick. Why? I don't think the prophecy has much depth and it isn't interesting.

 

Thoughts?

I agree, she was perfectly fine as a character in AGOT-ACOK-ASOS.

[The Sleeper]

Just to put the idea out there, but what if the prophecy about the valonqar strangling her is not about her killer but the murder weapon? The hands of the valonqar could refer to Tyrion's chain of office, which was made of little golden hands, in other words she is going to die like Shae did.

[argonak]

9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Just to put the idea out there, but what if the prophecy about the valonqar strangling her is not about her killer but the murder weapon? The hands of the valonqar could refer to Tyrion's chain of office, which was made of little golden hands, in other words she is going to die like Shae did.

I think it'd be really hilarious if the prophecy doesn't pan out at all and her last thoughts are realizing she let some fake witch's mumblings consume her whole life.

[The Sleeper]

2 minutes ago, argonak said:

I think it'd be really hilarious if the prophecy doesn't pan out at all and her last thoughts are realizing she let some fake witch's mumblings consume her whole life.

Sorry, prophecies come true in ASoIaF. 

[argonak]

5 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Sorry, prophecies come true in ASoIaF. 

We've seen many do so.  But it would be just like GRRM to have a few fake prophecies mixed in with the real ones.

[The Sleeper]

1 minute ago, argonak said:

We've seen many do so.  But it would be just like GRRM to have a few fake prophecies mixed in with the real ones.

I would ask you to name one, but the whole point of them is introduce foreboding. A fake might be passed around, but not from the genuine articles. They seem to take their business seriously.