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Sansa's first impressions of Daenerys?

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1 hour ago, Qyburn's helper said:

So, with the WW's about to attack WF, and doom near certain, the Northerners are going to be pissed at Jon for bending the knee to Dany, whose help might actually give them a fighting chance to live?

Do you also forget Jorah was on the White Hunt, and seen the threat with his own eyes? 

Jamie shows up to WF and tells them Cersie is about to double cross them and attack as well?

Jon and Rob's "mistake" are not even close to being comparable. Stop with that. Jon wasn't already committed to marrying another. 

 

Really?

"We know NO KING but the King in the North whose name is STARK."

 

I absolutely think little Lyanna Mormont is going to be pissed that Jon decided Dany would be a better ruler of the North than whomever they chose. She told Stannis to take a hike; Dany is going to get the same treatment if she insists that they bend the knee to her.

Jon and Robb made a very similar mistake. They even changed show Robb's plot from the books, so Jon could have this parallel. Jon is doing the same dumbass thing by falling in love with a foreign woman from Essos which is one reason they became disillusioned by Robb. Now, imagine if Robb had knelt to Stannis or another ruler at the same time he decided to marry whomever he wanted.

Jon's not breaking a "vow" but he definitely looks like he's being tone deaf as usual. He unilaterally decided that Dany deserves the North and that the Northerner's  sovereignty is less important than pleasing the hot lady he's crushing on.

Jon/Jorah/Daario/Robb - don't really see the difference here. All dumbasses who are thinking with their dicks instead of their heads. Jon doesn't learn anything from prior experiences or other people's errors, just continues to make the same mistakes over and over.

It's kind of amazing to me that they would write Jon as making the same mistakes as Robb, Ned ("honorable to a fault"), and JON HIMSELF - when he got killed for not paying attention to his own people's reactions to his decisions. He's also making the similar mistake as past Jon by falling in love with a woman who invades Westeros, just like Ygritte but 100x worse. One thing's for sure: GRRM isn't doing this. 

And about timing - the WW battle isnt going to be lasting from episodes 1-6. The series isnt just about a zombie vs. humans war, otherwise we'd be watching the Walking Dead. There will be a lot of political drama from the R+L=J fallout and Jon's actions, as described above. I anticipate that the Northerners could even elect Sansa as Queen in the North. I'm sure Dany would love to learn that she has zero allies, zero territories, Cersei has lied about the truce (duh), and Dany has no way to claim the North except by burning them all.

I doubt Cersei is going North, by the way. She told Jaime she was going to take back what was theirs (alluding to Casterly Rock) and let the monsters kill Jon and Dany. Why would she send soldiers up North to do that when she expects the AOTD to do that for her? At this rate, Show!Cersei is smarter than everyone. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

"We know NO KING but the King in the North whose name is STARK."

 

I absolutely think little Lyanna Mormont is going to be pissed that Jon decided Dany would be a better ruler of the North than whomever they chose. She told Stannis to take a hike; Dany is going to get the same treatment if she insists that they bend the knee to her.

Jon and Robb made a very similar mistake. They even changed show Robb's plot from the books, so Jon could have this parallel. Jon is doing the same dumbass thing by falling in love with a foreign woman from Essos which is one reason they became disillusioned by Robb. Now, imagine if Robb had knelt to Stannis or another ruler at the same time he decided to marry whomever he wanted.

Jon's not breaking a "vow" but he definitely looks like he's being tone deaf as usual. He unilaterally decided that Dany deserves the North and that the Northerner's  sovereignty is less important than pleasing the hot lady he's crushing on.

Jon/Jorah/Daario/Robb - don't really see the difference here. All dumbasses who are thinking with their dicks instead of their heads. Jon doesn't learn anything from prior experiences or other people's errors, just continues to make the same mistakes over and over.

It's kind of amazing to me that they would write Jon as making the same mistakes as Robb, Ned ("honorable to a fault"), and JON HIMSELF - when he got killed for not paying attention to his own people's reactions to his decisions. He's also making the similar mistake as past Jon by falling in love with a woman who invades Westeros, just like Ygritte but 100x worse. One thing's for sure: GRRM isn't doing this. 

And about timing - the WW battle isnt going to be lasting from episodes 1-6. The series isnt just about a zombie vs. humans war, otherwise we'd be watching the Walking Dead. There will be a lot of political drama from the R+L=J fallout and Jon's actions, as described above. I anticipate that the Northerners could even elect Sansa as Queen in the North. I'm sure Dany would love to learn that she has zero allies, zero territories, Cersei has lied about the truce (duh), and Dany has no way to claim the North except by burning them all.

I doubt Cersei is going North, by the way. She told Jaime she was going to take back what was theirs (alluding to Casterly Rock) and let the monsters kill Jon and Dany. Why would she send soldiers up North to do that when she expects the AOTD to do that for her? At this rate, Show!Cersei is smarter than everyone. 

 

 

First of all, if your looking for parallels, look up Torrhen Stark, and stop with the Rob Nonsense. Jon has forged a treaty that will keep his people alive, while Rob forged a treaty, then broke it, that ultimately got him killed. They couldn't be anymore of a polar opposite if you tried. The only mistake Robb made was not honoring his word to Lord Frey, and now your saying Jon should do the same with Dany, which is the epitome of stupid. 

Jamie is coming to warn Jon, Cersei is sending the golden company to fight Jon, timing is pointless. And while the North may not be fighting zombies throughout season 8, it is pretty clear that they will be fighting them really soon, so not sure your point (if you ever had one). 

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1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

First of all, if your looking for parallels, look up Torrhen Stark, and stop with the Rob Nonsense.

I would absolutely love a Jon/Torrhen parallel. To get there, we would need evidence that Jon, like Torrhen, made a politically calculated decision to bend the knee and that love/worship/lust/whatever had nothing to do with it.

We'd also have to say with a good degree of certainty that Jon, like Torrhen, has enough currency among his (former) bannermen that if he kneels to a Targaryen, they will kneel too. Somehow I don't think that's possible, for the following six reasons: 1) Jon said they would never accept a southern ruler, 2) they're pretty insistent on only a Stark or a son of Ned as their leader, 3) Dany has burned Lords who refused to kneel, making them even less likely to trust her when they get that news, 4) They already know that a Targaryen can't be trusted and they aren't going to be happy about Jon making her their new overlord when they warned him not to go south in the first place, 5) They were ready to overthrow Jon when he was taking too long in the South, so his political capital is already shaky as it is, 6) Dany is terrible with PR and branding so I'm sure she'll manage to piss them off even more. 

I would absolutely love a Jon/Robb contrast. To get there, we would need evidence that Jon, unlike Robb, has made smarter decisions in the South that didn't include: risking his bannermen's support because of a night of passion on a boat (Catelyn warned Robb about making a poor decision based on a night of passion in the woods), Jon didn't go south and lose his kingdom and take up with a foreign whore (exactly what Glover says about Robb. Hate that term, but that's what it looks like Jon is doing), and that Jon still has respect for the values of Northern Independence (Ned, Robb) and the North Remembers (also includes Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna). Hopefully, he gave up his kingdom because Dany wouldn't fight beside them otherwise. Not simply because he wanted to fuck a Targaryen and used his kingdom to show her how much he adores her and wants to give her prizes. 

What I hope would happen is that we actually get a rare Jon/Cersei parallel:

Cersei: "I'll say anything to ensure the survival of our family."

Jon: mood

But I'm not betting on it. 

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5 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I would absolutely love a Jon/Torrhen parallel. To get there, we would need evidence that Jon, like Torrhen, made a politically calculated decision to bend the knee and that love/worship/lust/whatever had nothing to do with it.

We'd also have to say with a good degree of certainty that Jon, like Torrhen, has enough currency among his (former) bannermen that if he kneels to a Targaryen, they will kneel too. Somehow I don't think that's possible, for the following six reasons: 1) Jon said they would never accept a southern ruler, 2) they're pretty insistent on only a Stark or a son of Ned as their leader, 3) Dany has burned Lords who refused to kneel, making them even less likely to trust her when they get that news, 4) They already know that a Targaryen can't be trusted and they aren't going to be happy about Jon making her their new overlord when they warned him not to go south in the first place, 5) They were ready to overthrow Jon when he was taking too long in the South, so his political capital is already shaky as it is, 6) Dany is terrible with PR and branding so I'm sure she'll manage to piss them off even more. 

I would absolutely love a Jon/Robb contrast. To get there, we would need evidence that Jon, unlike Robb, has made smarter decisions in the South that didn't include: risking his bannermen's support because of a night of passion on a boat (Catelyn warned Robb about making a poor decision based on a night of passion in the woods), Jon didn't go south and lose his kingdom and take up with a foreign whore (exactly what Glover says about Robb. Hate that term, but that's what it looks like Jon is doing), and that Jon still has respect for the values of Northern Independence (Ned, Robb) and the North Remembers (also includes Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna). Hopefully, he gave up his kingdom because Dany wouldn't fight beside them otherwise. Not simply because he wanted to fuck a Targaryen and used his kingdom to show her how much he adores her and wants to give her prizes. 

What I hope would happen is that we actually get a rare Jon/Cersei parallel:

Cersei: "I'll say anything to ensure the survival of our family."

Jon: mood

But I'm not betting on it. 

Your wrong on so many points I don't know where to begin......................

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1) Jon said they would never accept a southern ruler,

Jon also said he had no desire to be King of Westeros. As long as the North is left pretty much to it's own devices, they will be fine with Dany as Queen. A simular arrangement was made with Tohrenn, The arrangement worked pretty well, right up until the Mad king. What is their alternative? Fight the WW's on there own, then fight Dany's army, and then Cersei too? Come on man....

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2) they're pretty insistent on only a Stark or a son of Ned as their leader,

Well, he is neither, and see point one.

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3) Dany has burned Lords who refused to kneel, making them even less likely to trust her when they get that news,

Twisting things to suit your fantasy again I see. She burned a lord that just committed treason against his own liege lord, and in the process killed one of Dany's allies. it's called war, read up on it. 

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4) They already know that a Targaryen can't be trusted and they aren't going to be happy about Jon making her their new overlord when they warned him not to go south in the first place,

Well, for starters, Jon is a targ, so there is that. Do you think they would rather trust Cersie? They seem to have accepted the freefolk....

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5) They were ready to overthrow Jon when he was taking too long in the South, so his political capital is already shaky as it is, 

Oh, you mean when Jon was down South, trying to come up with a plan to save their a$$? Jon's political capital will be just fine, did you forgt about the WW's?

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6) Dany is terrible with PR and branding so I'm sure she'll manage to piss them off even more. 

Right up until she throws her life on the line trying to save their sorry butt's. Yeah there will be some grumblings etc, which will last about one episode, when the WW's show up they will be kissing Dany's........

 

All your babbling ignores what is coming to WF, because, well, you have to. Again, Dany is the North's only hope, not sure what part of that you don't get?

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10 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Right up until she throws her life on the line trying to save their sorry butt's. Yeah there will be some grumblings etc, which will last about one episode, when the WW's show up they will be kissing Dany's........

All your babbling ignores what is coming to WF, because, well, you have to. Again, Dany is the North's only hope, not sure what part of that you don't get?

I will have to disagree with this sentiment.  I don't think Dany's dragons will be that effective on the Night King or the Whitewalkers.  I really doubt that Dany is the North's only hope.  I think the savior of the North is Bran

Also didn't the Night King take down a dragon?  Can't the Night King just kill the rest of the dragons if he really wanted to?

I would also think it will not be easy for Dany's armies who are used to the conditions akin to Egypt to fight in conditions akin to Russia. 

 

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7 hours ago, goldenmaps said:

I will have to disagree with this sentiment.  I don't think Dany's dragons will be that effective on the Night King or the Whitewalkers.  I really doubt that Dany is the North's only hope.  I think the savior of the North is Bran

Also didn't the Night King take down a dragon?  Can't the Night King just kill the rest of the dragons if he really wanted to?

I would also think it will not be easy for Dany's armies who are used to the conditions akin to Egypt to fight in conditions akin to Russia. 

 

I agree with you. All Dany's army does is to ultimately provide additional wight soldiers for the NK. There is no way the humans can win this war until a way is found to kill the NK or make a deal with  him to return back to the North (like was done the first time the WW's invaded thousands of years ago when a deal was made with them involving the Last Hero and the COTF). I agree Bran is the key figure and probably we will see the COTF also get involved as well. Bran as the Three Eyed Raven should be able to go back in time and find out what the deal was that resulted in the WW's agreeing to return North with the Wall being built the first time they invaded. Perhaps this is the way we will find out why the NK is invading again.

The NK is probably immune to fire, dragonglass, and Valyerian steel. Probably the only thing that can kill him is the sword Lightbringer. Dany's dragons, although immune to regular fire, may not be immune to Viserion's blue flame. We don't know whether Visarion is immune to regular fire. But even if he can be killed you still have the NK to deal with. And as you mentioned the WW's do have anti-aircraft ice spears to take down Dany's dragons. Additionally have you ever tried to gallop a horse in the ice and snow-it is almost impossible unless you want to commit suicide. 

I have said this before in other posts but I believe Dany suffers from a split personality disorder (the Breaker of Chains Savior alternating with the ruthless Khaleiesi with the philosophy that in order to obtain and sustain power you need to instill fear and terror in your subjects and kill all your enemies mercilessly) coupled with her obsessions with power and fire. She can do good or bad things depending on which personlity she happens to be in. Her personality therefore is inherently unstable. Perhaps not the most dersirable person to have as a ruler, depending on your perspective.

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5 hours ago, goldenmaps said:

I will have to disagree with this sentiment.  I don't think Dany's dragons will be that effective on the Night King or the Whitewalkers.  I really doubt that Dany is the North's only hope.  I think the savior of the North is Bran

Also didn't the Night King take down a dragon?  Can't the Night King just kill the rest of the dragons if he really wanted to?

I would also think it will not be easy for Dany's armies who are used to the conditions akin to Egypt to fight in conditions akin to Russia. 

 

Disagree all you want, but your wrong in doing so. Dany is the North's only hope, end of story. In case you have forgotten, there is just not WW's, but over 200k wights in the Nk's army. It takes men to defeat the wights. Do you think the NK is just going to walk up to Jon and request man to man combat? No, you have to get through the wights first. It takes numbers to do that, and Dany has numbers. 10k dothraki screamers on horseback would make fast work of a whole lot of wights.....

And yes the NK brought down a dragon, albeit while standing on a mountain so he could actually hit the dragon. I doubnt they will make that mistake again, getting to close to the NK. In case you forgot, the dragons were incredibly effective against the wights, which is about 95% of the problem. 

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Agreed, I dont think the dragons will work in the Long Night. They won't like the weather, they can get shot down, and they weren't necessary to push back the Others the first time.

I dont think the Dothraki or Unsullied will be able to fight in extreme Siberian conditions. If Stannis' men couldn't do it, then they definitely can't. Jon is correct in his statement that a Southern army can't handle the weather. Speaking of which - I wonder if Jon knows that Cersei's "promise" to send troops ain't happening because he said they wouldnt make it North anyway?

Jon is risking a lot with this crazy plan. He's hoping that he can use these nukes and that they won't turn on him or that they'll even work. Bryan Cogman calls Jon going to Dragonstone a "crazy, risky plan" and it was. With Jon's track record, it's bound to backfire. 

Jon is carrying 100k jars of wildfire north, hoping this thing will all work out. Then there's another bomb ticking under the table with R+L=J that he doesnt even know about.

 

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21 hours ago, Error-504 said:

All your babbling ignores what is coming to WF, because, well, you have to. Again, Dany is the North's only hope, not sure what part of that you don't get?

Dude, don't get mad at me, get mad at the Northern Lords. That's what the TV show is portraying - foreshadowing for them not being happy at all with what Jon has done. If they don't want Dany to rule over them, she can save their lives anyway. A real hero shouldn't have to get a crown at the end. 

There's a strong Northern Independence movement going on right now and even if there is a threat, they have a right to choose whom they want to lead them. That's a dilemma that the show is conveying. I'm just repeating reasons why I think they won't accept her. But for some reason you're acting super hostile, like I shot your dog?

 

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1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Agreed, I dont think the dragons will work in the Long Night. They won't like the weather, they can get shot down, and they weren't necessary to push back the Others the first time.

I dont think the Dothraki or Unsullied will be able to fight in extreme Siberian conditions. If Stannis' men couldn't do it, then they definitely can't. Jon is correct in his statement that a Southern army can't handle the weather. Speaking of which - I wonder if Jon knows that Cersei's "promise" to send troops ain't happening because he said they wouldnt make it North anyway?

Jon is risking a lot with this crazy plan. He's hoping that he can use these nukes and that they won't turn on him or that they'll even work. Bryan Cogman calls Jon going to Dragonstone a "crazy, risky plan" and it was. With Jon's track record, it's bound to backfire. 

Jon is carrying 100k jars of wildfire north, hoping this thing will all work out. Then there's another bomb ticking under the table with R+L=J that he doesnt even know about.

 

The dragons worked just fine on the wight hunt, if not for them they would have all perished, so it is quite clear they work perfectly well in the cold. Yes, they can get shot down if they are unpiloted and careless, and there just happens to be a night King perched way up on a mountain nearby. As for the dothraki and the Unsullied, all they need is some appropriate clothing. The dothraki horse back riders will keep fairly warm from the body heat of the horses they are perched upon. would they be better fighters in warmer weather? Of course they would, but they are not fighting a Northern human army, they are fighting wights. 

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1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Dude, don't get mad at me, get mad at the Northern Lords. That's what the TV show is portraying - foreshadowing for them not being happy at all with what Jon has done. If they don't want Dany to rule over them, she can save their lives anyway. A real hero shouldn't have to get a crown at the end. 

There's a strong Northern Independence movement going on right now and even if there is a threat, they have a right to choose whom they want to lead them. That's a dilemma that the show is conveying. I'm just repeating reasons why I think they won't accept her. But for some reason you're acting super hostile, like I shot your dog?

 

I will stop being hostile as soon as you start using common sense. Jon went to dragonstone because he knew the North had zero chance alone, and it's something you just refuse to grasp. As for the Northern Lords possibly disapproving of Dany, that is because just like Cersei, they don't really believe the WW threat is real, or just don't grasp how big a threat it really is. So I am sure there will be a lot of grumbling when Jon and Dany arrive at WF, and as I keep saying that will stop as soon as word hits Winterfell that the wall has been breeched. 

Over and over and over you keep spouting about what a terrible plan it was, the north won't except Dany, yada yada yada. And again, it was Jon's only hope, and the Norths only hope. 

As for any "foreshadowing" the wights will be dealt with in episodes 2-3, possible part of 4, so it appears Dany's help will work fairly well. 

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22 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

I will stop being hostile as soon as you start using common sense. Jon went to dragonstone because he knew the North had zero chance alone, and it's something you just refuse to grasp. As for the Northern Lords possibly disapproving of Dany, that is because just like Cersei, they don't really believe the WW threat is real, or just don't grasp how big a threat it really is. So I am sure there will be a lot of grumbling when Jon and Dany arrive at WF, and as I keep saying that will stop as soon as word hits Winterfell that the wall has been breeched. 

Over and over and over you keep spouting about what a terrible plan it was, the north won't except Dany, yada yada yada. And again, it was Jon's only hope, and the Norths only hope. 

As for any "foreshadowing" the wights will be dealt with in episodes 2-3, possible part of 4, so it appears Dany's help will work fairly well. 

I don't make you respond that way. You choose to respond that way. Attack people on their ideas. Don't attack them personally. So let's try again . . . 

It's quite a leap to say that Dany's help has "worked" when S8 hasn't even aired. We don't even know for certain what Dany is doing except some "weird shit."

The Northern Lords were wary of their king going off to treat with a Targaryen. They are scared of her and worried about Jon going south like Ned. I can't blame them. At any moment Dany could have burned Jon alive like Randyll because he didn't kneel. Cogman was going to call S7E2 the "Mad King's daughter" because that's how they see her: The Mad King with nukes. 

And I don't foresee Dany winning them over. They might fight with her but they're still not going to trust her.  The Northern Lords aren't that easily impressed. They'd kneel to Jon before the knelt to her. They might even choose an overlooked darkhorse with Sansa. Everything Dany's wanted, she's been able to get because her dragons. In Westeros, the opposite appears to be happening. People would rather support Cersei than support her. Her dragons can't solve this political problem. It's one Tyrion was very wary of. It will come up again after the fighting is over.

The reason I think Jon is making a mistake is because he's Aragorn thinking he can use Smaug to defeat Sauron. He's hoping he can overcome the Godzilla threshold. He's taking a risk and bringing an even greater threat to his doorstep because Fire is just as dangerous as Ice. Dany and the Others are the two threats facing Westeros. This is built into the original outline GRRM wrote in 1991 and he's repeated it in interviews. If Mel thinks Dany will play a role, I have to laugh because her track record is terrible. 

Tolkien did not write a story just about orcs vs. the good guys; after the ring was destroyed they had to deal with Saruman on their home turf. They also had to deal with distractions in their ranks like Denethor, who saw Aragorn as a threat because he was the heir. Then he decided to have a mental health freakout in the middle of a crisis. That's another path Dany might go on, especially if she loses another dragon.

The LOTR ended with a major irony which GRRM has praised for its poignancy and surprise factor. The hobbits' home was destroyed even as they left the Shire to save it. That's why I can see it playing out similarly in S8: Jon is attempting to save the North from Ice but he loses it to Fire. That's why I think Fire won't "save the day." It's just another threat. As others have said, Bran is a major player because he's the most similar to the silent, overlooked heroes like Frodo and Sam. 

This is my theory. You can politely disagree. Or, click on "ignore user" if that would help.

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10 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I don't make you respond that way. You choose to respond that way. Attack people on their ideas. Don't attack them personally. So let's try again . . . 

It's quite a leap to say that Dany's help has "worked" when S8 hasn't even aired. We don't even know for certain what Dany is doing except some "weird shit."

The Northern Lords were wary of their king going off to treat with a Targaryen. They are scared of her and worried about Jon going south like Ned. I can't blame them. At any moment Dany could have burned Jon alive like Randyll because he didn't kneel. Cogman was going to call S7E2 the "Mad King's daughter" because that's how they see her: The Mad King with nukes. 

And I don't foresee Dany winning them over. They might fight with her but they're still not going to trust her.  The Northern Lords aren't that easily impressed. They'd kneel to Jon before the knelt to her. They might even choose an overlooked darkhorse with Sansa. Everything Dany's wanted, she's been able to get because her dragons. In Westeros, the opposite appears to be happening. People would rather support Cersei than support her. Her dragons can't solve this political problem. It's one Tyrion was very wary of. It will come up again after the fighting is over.

The reason I think Jon is making a mistake is because he's Aragorn thinking he can use Smaug to defeat Sauron. He's hoping he can overcome the Godzilla threshold. He's taking a risk and bringing an even greater threat to his doorstep because Fire is just as dangerous as Ice. Dany and the Others are the two threats facing Westeros. This is built into the original outline GRRM wrote in 1991 and he's repeated it in interviews. If Mel thinks Dany will play a role, I have to laugh because her track record is terrible. 

Tolkien did not write a story just about orcs vs. the good guys; after the ring was destroyed they had to deal with Saruman on their home turf. They also had to deal with distractions in their ranks like Denethor, who saw Aragorn as a threat because he was the heir. Then he decided to have a mental health freakout in the middle of a crisis. That's another path Dany might go on, especially if she loses another dragon.

The LOTR ended with a major irony which GRRM has praised for its poignancy and surprise factor. The hobbits' home was destroyed even as they left the Shire to save it. That's why I can see it playing out similarly in S8: Jon is attempting to save the North from Ice but he loses it to Fire. That's why I think Fire won't "save the day." It's just another threat. As others have said, Bran is a major player because he's the most similar to the silent, overlooked heroes like Frodo and Sam. 

This is my theory. You can politely disagree. Or, click on "ignore user" if that would help.

This is GOT not LOTR. 

Dany did not force Jon to kneel, as a matter of fact, Dany promised her help before Jon knelt. Never once in her presence was Jon at all threatened by Dany, not once. Oh, and btw, Jon is half targaryen himself.

The north has two known REAL threats, The Others, and Cersei. According to you, they should ignore these known threats and refuse to ally with Dany, who by your speculation is only a "maybe" threat, and would  only be so after defeating two of the Norths "known" threats. Your posts continue to defy logic, by conjuring up a succession of ifs, buts, and nuts your trying to dream up a scenario in which the North allying with Dany would be worse that going it alone,  first the WW's, and then, if they made it through that (which they wouldn't), what ever is left to fight Cersei and the golden company. Oh, and then they would still have Dany to deal with as well. 

Jon made the right decision, one that at least gives the North a chance, to live to fight another day. I am amazed by your failure to recognize this, or by your refusing that the Nothern Lords will come to see it the same way. 

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8 hours ago, Error-504 said:

This is GOT not LOTR. 

Dany did not force Jon to kneel, as a matter of fact, Dany promised her help before Jon knelt. Never once in her presence was Jon at all threatened by Dany, not once. Oh, and btw, Jon is half targaryen himself.

The north has two known REAL threats, The Others, and Cersei. According to you, they should ignore these known threats and refuse to ally with Dany, who by your speculation is only a "maybe" threat, and would  only be so after defeating two of the Norths "known" threats. Your posts continue to defy logic, by conjuring up a succession of ifs, buts, and nuts your trying to dream up a scenario in which the North allying with Dany would be worse that going it alone,  first the WW's, and then, if they made it through that (which they wouldn't), what ever is left to fight Cersei and the golden company. Oh, and then they would still have Dany to deal with as well. 

Jon made the right decision, one that at least gives the North a chance, to live to fight another day. I am amazed by your failure to recognize this, or by your refusing that the Nothern Lords will come to see it the same way. 

- Jon made the best worst choice in a range of terrible choices. But he also didn't need to make things worse for himself back home. The fact that Jon immediately jumped to "I'D BEND THE KNEE BUT..." and said it so quickly is quite foolish. I hope he was lying to her because it was so unnecessary (He did throw a "but" in there). If he's not, he gave her the North for no reason other than he wants to be her loyal servant. If that's the case, Jon deserves another shanking for such stupid move. It will unnecessarily piss off his own bannermen. He's made Sansa's job harder as well because she will have to do damage control for him. Robb got killed for thinking with his dick, not his head, and Jon got killed for being too trusting and blind to how people respond to what he's doing. 

 - Dany refused to let Jon return home on his own volition. He didn't go there to bend the knee; he was seeking an alliance. She tried to intimidate him into bending the knee. Drogon charged at Jon twice. Dothraki gave him the evil eye. She took his ship so he couldn't leave. He said he came to Dragonstone knowing she could burn him alive. When she's going on scary tirade to burn down the Red Keep, Jon would rather leave. When she commands him to stay and demands that he give her advice, he guards his words carefully. When she returns and says she has fewer enemies, Jon says he doesn't know how to feel about that. He doesn't know what she did, but he knows she can take thousands of lives within 2 seconds. We don't have a heart rate monitor to know if he's scared or not, but Jon looks uneasy around her in the majority of their scenes. His body language and facial expressions are troubled, standoffish, and tense. Everyone is afraid to tell the truth around her. Tyrion says she has a temper and look how she responds - with anger. I'm not surprised if we hear that in S8, Jon has to walk on eggshells around her.

- Jon was ready to leave Dragonstone and fight without Dany. Twice. So most likely, he had a preparation plan that involved the Wall. But the Wall has fallen now because Dany wouldn't help them when Jon asked. Thus far Dany hasn't helped anyone. She's only made it harder. She should clean up her own mess. So yes, Dany most definitely hsa to help them now.

- I'm not trying to dream up a scenario where allying with Dany is worse. I'm saying that there are a lot of dominoes that are going to fall in S8 that will push her to a breaking point and she will turn on them. Some of these are outside of Jon's control. I think she will return to her role as one of the 2 threats facing Westeros. Whether its during the zombie battle, or after, it doesn't really matter. Jon has to fight both Ice and Fire. 

- I'm sure Dany will help them with the wights for a while, but what if they keep coming? What if it takes longer than expected? In S7, dragons were only North of the Wall for like 10 minutes max. What about several weeks? How will they handle it then? There is book evidence that they can't even handle the rain. The Northern winters break even the strongest men, and the White Walkers are bringing even colder weather with them. The first Long Night was a bleak apocalyptic nightmare where people were so desperate for food and warmth they strangled their own children in their cribs. This isn't just easily solved by throwing some furs on a Dothraki. Their horses could die. Yes, they could eat the horses, but now they have to walk in the snow. What if they dont have the right shoes? Is Sansa going to sew proper clothing for 40k horse lords? The issue of feeding all of these armies was made worse by the fact that Dany burned the food in her loot train attack. More evidence that she creates more problems than she solves. 

Edited by Guest

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I'd like to return to the issue of Sansa's impressions of Daenerys. Sophie Turner's interview this past weekend may have a clue:

Quote

“I know I say this every season, but Sansa really comes into her own this season. The past few seasons for her and the whole series for her, she’s kind of been somewhat lost as a matter of where she wants to be, who she wants to be, who she wants to surround herself with, and this season she is very very self-assured. She knows what she wants. She knows what she stands for. She knows who she wants to be around, and she faces threats to that this season. But, well, we’ll see how that goes.” - Sophie Turner, NYCC 2018

She has also said:

Quote

"This season, there’s a new threat, and all of a sudden she finds herself somewhat back in the deep end. And without Littlefinger, it’s a test for her of whether she can get through it. It’s a big challenge for her, without this master manipulator having her back. This season is more a passionate fight for her than a political, manipulative kind of fight." — Sophie Turner, Variety, 2017

Assuming that she's not trolling, we have:

  • a new threat 
  • this threat involves who she wants to be around
  • a passionate fight
  • not a political/manipulative fight 

Is anyone else reading this and thinking that Sansa and Dany will be at odds?

Edited by Guest

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On 10/7/2018 at 8:15 PM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I'd like to return to the issue of Sansa's impressions of Daenerys. Sophie Turner's interview this past weekend may have a clue:

She has also said:

Assuming that she's not trolling, we have:

  • a new threat 
  • this threat involves who she wants to be around
  • a passionate fight
  • not a political/manipulative fight 

Is anyone else reading this and thinking that Sansa and Dany will be at odds?

Sansa would be inclined to distrust Dany, simply because she is the daughter of the mad king. And on top of that, Jon has bent the knee without consulting anyone in the north. 

I've always thought that it won't be smooth sailing for Jon and Dany. Maybe having Sansa oppose Dany would complicate things for them. It is possible Sansa would want to keep the north independent. Maybe that's what Sophie Turner was alluding to.

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On 10/7/2018 at 9:06 PM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Dany refused to let Jon return home on his own volition. He didn't go there to bend the knee; he was seeking an alliance. She tried to intimidate him into bending the knee. Drogon charged at Jon twice. Dothraki gave him the evil eye. She took his ship so he couldn't leave. He said he came to Dragonstone knowing she could burn him alive. When she's going on scary tirade to burn down the Red Keep, Jon would rather leave. When she commands him to stay and demands that he give her advice, he guards his words carefully. When she returns and says she has fewer enemies, Jon says he doesn't know how to feel about that. He doesn't know what she did, but he knows she can take thousands of lives within 2 seconds. We don't have a heart rate monitor to know if he's scared or not, but Jon looks uneasy around her in the majority of their scenes. His body language and facial expressions are troubled, standoffish, and tense. Everyone is afraid to tell the truth around her. Tyrion says she has a temper and look how she responds - with anger. I'm not surprised if we hear that in S8, Jon has to walk on eggshells around her.

- Jon was ready to leave D

Again, your watching a different show, Jon was never ready to leave, and not nearly as much time had passed as your alluding too. Dany specifically stated Jon was not a prisoner. And Jon sure as **** wasn't going to leave without the dragonglass. Would Dany really allow Jon to mine resources for the North's personal use? No. So can we really say Jon is not allowed to leave Dragonstone when he has only been on the island for a day, a few days at max, hasn't yet formally asked to leave, has been given free range of the island, and has even been given permission to mine resources from the island? 

Edited by Error-504

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I fully expect there to be some conflict between Sansa and Dany at the beginning of the season. Sansa will likely be adamant about the idea that Jon shouldn't have bent the knee, and she'll probably be embroiled in making sure this decision doesn't blow up in everyones' faces with the Northern lords. Not sure what she can do on that front, but I have a feeling that's going to be her task at first. It will make her resent Dany until Dany can prove her worth. Do I think things will blow over between them? Yes. I think it won't be until after the NK attacks WF though... Perhaps Dany's conduct during said battle will get Sansa to realize what she's there for, that she's trying to make common cause with the living.

The question is does Bran reveal Jon's parentage early on, or is it a later reveal? Because that in itself will be a big revelation, and will give people a lot to mull over - is Jon even the leader they want in the North? Should the North remain independent? What does this mean for Jon/Dany as individuals and as a relationship?

My gut feeling for Sansa's reaction to this info would be that she would be at first shocked, but then pensive. I think it will take time, but she will continue to support Jon as her family, even if he is just a cousin, not a half brother. I think family has become increasingly important for Sansa over time, and it would take a lot to shake that for her now. I expect her to be loyal.

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This will depend on which Sansa is she portraying in that scene. If one character is suffering with Multiple Personality Syndrome thanks to the show writers, it is Sansa.  With that being said, she seems to want to be the Head Woman up there so Dany showing up and no doubt she will expect everyone to bend the knee to her, Sansa will not like it and I cannot blame her. I cannot wait till she finds out that Jon is not even her father's son and has no real claim on Winterfell and the North because of it. 

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The idea that the show will depict conflict between Sansa and Dany is most likely correct. 

But, logically, why?

Unless Sansa has her sights set on the Iron Throne herself (which has never been alluded to), then logic dictates she will have to support someone. Would she rather support Cersei, someone that has killed, doubled crossed, and just plain made life miserable for every Stark she has ever met, or Dany, who is risking everything to help the North, has saved Jon's ass already once, and if paired with Jon, gives the North more voice than ever before in the kingdom? 

Remember, not only are the WW's still on their way to Winterfell, but Jamie is as well with news of Cersei's betrayal, and her plan to conquer a weakened North (after the North's battle with the WW's) with the golden company. 

Edited by Error-504

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