Elia Martell: Yes, another Septa Lemore speculation

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

But the second sense I just clicked to: we always talk about House Martell, and forget the full style is House Nymeros-Martell. The SUN was Nymeria's arms, the SPEAR was for (Mors) Martell. I think this saying is also indicating that the women of the family (the suns) are more deadly than the men (the spears)

There is zero doubt that the Martell women are deadly. Oberyn's daughters in particular. Just based on what we know of Arianne and her cousins, two of whom are working under disguises (Sarella at the Citadel and Tyene as a septa in King's Landing), I think Elia may well be like them. I don't think being nice and kind or being sickly makes a person meek or helpless. I think those women are all cut from the same cloth.

Also, your earlier post about rising with the sun and all that was very neat.

[Crona]

Interesting theory! I like the connection of the Rhoyne. Do you think there was any significance of the gigantic turtle that bellowed at the shy maid? Tyrion thinks the turtle arises because he found out that Young Griff was Aegon

Quote

water that rocked the Shy Maid sideways.
       It was another turtle, a horned turtle of enormous size, its dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with water moss and crusty black river molluscs. It raised its head and bellowed, a deep-throated thrumming roar louder than any warhorn that Tyrion had ever heard. “We are blessed,” Ysilla was crying loudly, as tears streamed down her face. “We are blessed, we are blessed.”
       Duck was hooting, and Young Griff too. Haldon came out on deck to learn the cause of the commotion … but too late. The giant turtle had vanished below the water once again. “What was the cause of all that noise?” the Halfmaester asked.
       “A turtle,” said Tyrion. “A turtle bigger than this boat.”
       “It was him,” cried Yandry. “The Old Man of the River.”
       And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.

 

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But look at Lemore's behavior with Tyrion. After he is fished out, she is the one who saves him by giving him CPR, not Haldon Halfmaester. And she is the one who bathes him in vinegar, not Haldon. Her behavior is that of a mother.

As in - he saved her son, so as a way of thanking Tyrion for that, she took care of him afterwards?

Septa Lemore really could be fAegon's mother, which doesn't mean, that he is Aegon Targaryen, and she is Ellia Martell. She could be Lady Jayne Swann, and he could be her son, a Blackfyre.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

33 minutes ago, Megorova said:

As in - he saved her son, so as a way of thanking Tyrion for that, she took care of him afterwards?

Possibly. Jon Connington does let some of his guard down afterward. As @Rufus Snow pointed out in one of this posts, if Lemore is Elia, then Elia met Tyrion shortly after he was born. 

Lemore comes off as more than a septa in the way she treats Tyrion after he is out for a few days. 

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 Septa Lemore really could be fAegon's mother, which doesn't mean, that he is Aegon Targaryen, and she is Ellia Martell. She could be Lady Jayne Swann, and he could be her son, a Blackfyre.

I don't mean to sound rude, but if you wish to discuss this, you should really start your own thread. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Crona said:

Interesting theory! I like the connection of the Rhoyne. Do you think there was any significance of the gigantic turtle that bellowed at the shy maid? Tyrion thinks the turtle arises because he found out that Young Griff was Aegon

I don't know. But what I find interesting is that we don't have Lemore's reaction on this at all even though she is on deck with Tyrion.

[Crona]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't know. But what I find interesting is that we don't have Lemore's reaction on this at all even though she is on deck with Tyrion.

She was swimming before the turtle came up. 

And I don’t know how revelant it is, but I did notice that Lemore swims when the sun rises and Doran watches the water garden till the sun sets and reads the letter that says Oberyn is dead.

Also, Doran sort of reminds me of a turtle too 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Crona said:

And I don’t know how revelant it is, but I did notice that Lemore swims when the sun rises and Doran watches the water garden till the sun sets and reads the letter that says Oberyn is dead.

That's very nice symbolism, Crona. It might be reaching, but if the sun's son is significant and the sun rising in the west and setting in the east is important, then I don't think we should dismiss this type of symbolism either.  

I have been rereading ADWD in the past couple months and I think might need to go back to those Tyrion chapters. 

[The Map Guy]

Great theory if assuming fAegon is the real deal.

I would like to add some symbolism to this theory.

The trial by combat between Oberyn & the Mountain was really about Tyrion, but lets scratch Tyrion out for now.

Before the eyes of the gods, Oberyn accuses Gregor if he raped Elia and killed Aegon.....and Oberyn loses and dies.

Even though Gregor confessed publicly, he may still be protecting Elia & Aegon's fake deaths.

 

So, in the eyes of the gods, Gregor is not guilty of this crime he is accused of (thanks Seams)....and if Elia is Lemore, what is Elia's disguise? A Septa. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Great theory if assuming fAegon is the real deal.

I would like to add some symbolism to this theory.

The trial by combat between Oberyn & the Mountain was really about Tyrion, but lets scratch Tyrion out for now.

Before the eyes of the gods, Oberyn accuses Gregor if he raped Elia and killed Aegon.....and Oberyn loses and dies.

Even though Gregor confessed publicly, he may still be protecting Elia & Aegon's fake deaths.

 

So, in the eyes of the gods, Gregor is not guilty of this crime he is accused of (thanks Seams)....and if Elia is Lemore, what is Elia's disguise? A Septa. 

So I very much disagree that Gregor had any knowledge of a fake Aegon or a fake Elia. And who knows if the combat had been allowed to stretch a little longer, if Gregor wouldn't have said the name of the person who ordered the murders of the children.

But one thing, though, with Oberyn's accusations.

Not Oberyn Martell. "You raped her," he called, feinting. "You murdered her," he said, dodging a looping cut from Gregor's greatsword. "You killed her children," he shouted, slamming the spearpoint into the giant's throat, only to have it glance off the thick steel gorget with a screech. (Tyrion X, ASOS 70)

Gregor is at the very least innocent of one of the accusations. Rhaenys died at the hands of the very brave (said sarcastically) Amory Lorch. 

The trial by combat is interesting and Tyrion involvement with the Martells does become more interesting.

[Sigella]

But Lemore swims in the Rhoyne every morning. Doesn't seem wise (or likely) for someone who's frail and sickly. If Lemore was Elia its sloppy writing and I don't think GRRM errs on stuff like this.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

37 minutes ago, Sigella said:

But Lemore swims in the Rhoyne every morning. Doesn't seem wise (or likely) for someone who's frail and sickly. If Lemore was Elia its sloppy writing and I don't think GRRM errs on stuff like this.

I think we ought to give Elia more credit than that and perhaps start considering her resiliency. She was bedridden after Rhaenys was born and she recovered. And giving birth to Aegon almost killed her, but she recovered. 

I don't think swimming or washing in the river is going to harm her. And it's not like she's overextending herself on the Shy Maid. Her tasks are nowhere near strenuous. 

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Not Oberyn Martell. "You raped her," he called, feinting. "You murdered her," he said, dodging a looping cut from Gregor's greatsword. "You killed her children," he shouted, slamming the spearpoint into the giant's throat, only to have it glance off the thick steel gorget with a screech. (Tyrion X, ASOS 70)

Gregor is at the very least innocent of one of the accusations. Rhaenys died at the hands of the very brave (said sarcastically) Amory Lorch. 

That is a very good observation. Does Oberyn know ?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

27 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

That is a very good observation. Does Oberyn know ?

He is told. He doesn't believe it.

"Men are seldom as they appear. You look so very guilty that I am convinced of your innocence. Still, you will likely be condemned. Justice is in short supply this side of the mountains. There has been none for Elia, Aegon, or Rhaenys. Why should there be any for you? Perhaps Joffrey's real killer was eaten by a bear. That seems to happen quite often in King's Landing. Oh, wait, the bear was at Harrenhal, now I remember."
"Is that the game we are playing?" Tyrion rubbed at his scarred nose. He had nothing to lose by telling Oberyn the truth. "There was a bear at Harrenhal, and it did kill Ser Amory Lorch."
"How sad for him," said the Red Viper. "And for you. Do all noseless men lie so badly, I wonder?"
"I am not lying. Ser Amory dragged Princess Rhaenys out from under her father's bed and stabbed her to death. He had some men-at-arms with him, but I do not know their names." He leaned forward. "It was Ser Gregor Clegane who smashed Prince Aegon's head against a wall and raped your sister Elia with his blood and brains still his hands." (Tyrion IX, ASOS 66)

[Rufus Snow]

11 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

That is a very good observation. Does Oberyn know ?

Tywin told Oberyn that Lorch killed all three, but Tyrion was the one who told Oberyn about Gregor killing Elia and Aegon. Given that, I'm not sure why he said 'children' to Gregor...

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think we ought to give Elia more credit than that and perhaps start considering her resiliency. She was bedridden after Rhaenys was born and she recovered. And giving birth to Aegon almost killed her, but she recovered. 

I don't think swimming or washing in the river is going to harm her. And it's not like she's overextending herself on the Shy Maid. Her tasks are nowhere near strenuous. 

No, JonCon says she was frail and sickly before and that childborth made it worse. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 minutes ago, Sigella said:

No, JonCon says she was frail and sickly

Yes, he said that, and Oberyn said she had delicate health. I'm not disagreeing on this.

10 minutes ago, Sigella said:

that childborth made it worse.

She couldn't have anymore children, so I'd say that made her situation worse. 

[SirArthur]

9 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Tywin told Oberyn that Lorch killed all three, but Tyrion was the one who told Oberyn about Gregor killing Elia and Aegon. Given that, I'm not sure why he said 'children' to Gregor...

Could it be that this is one of those proxy moments, where something else is going on and the "children" are just the proxy ? Was Elia pregnant in Oberyn's mind ? Was he throwing the duel on purpose ?

Oberyn is indeed a character, where I am not sure that he knows about all of Doran's plans. At least we know, that he doesn't know about the state of Elia or her children and has to believe a Lannister. 

[Megorova]

20 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't mean to sound rude, but if you wish to discuss this, you should really start your own thread. 

No, thank You I'll try not to go off topic of Elia-Lemore possibility.

So, aside from Elia having Dornish looks, that should have been noticed by Tyrion, there was another characteristic of her, that should make her recognisable - her entire life Elia was unhealthy, and physically (and psychologically) weak. JonCon even thought, that she was unworthy of Rhaegar. So would he let a person, that he deemed as unworthy, to be raising his promised Prince?

20 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

if Lemore is Elia, then Elia met Tyrion shortly after he was born. 

That's not the only possibility, when the two of them could have met before.

There's also Harrenhall's Tournament, and the Sack of KL - maybe Cersei and Tyrion were there, in first case to attend the ceremony of Jaime joining Kingsguards, and in second case Tywin could have took them with him, not to leave his heirs at Casterly Rock, cut off from him by Ned's and Robert's troops, if his attack on KL would have failed, he could have planned to send Cersei and Tyrion to Essos, not to let them be seized by enemies. There's also Rhaegar's wedding. During Robert's Rebellion, Tyrion was 10 years old, so if then he has seen Elia, it's unlikely, that he has forgotten how she looks. During Rhaegar's wedding, Tyrion was 6 or 7. And it's not like you see a royal wedding every day, event like that would have been memorable. Tywin left Aerys' court, only after Aerys let Jaime join Kingsguards, so during Rhaegar's wedding, Tywin was still King's Hand, and thus he and his children did attended that event. Though maybe I remember it incorrectly

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Yes, he said that, and Oberyn said she had delicate health. I'm not disagreeing on this.

She couldn't have anymore children, so I'd say that made her situation worse. 

Not having more kids is beside the point. Lemore being  neither frail or sickly proves your theory wrong.

[Seams]

33 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Not having more kids is beside the point. Lemore being  neither frail or sickly proves your theory wrong.

Lol. Well, now that you have definitively resolved all questions in your own mind, you can leave this discussion to those of us who are interested in exploring ideas. I happen to disagree with your definitive proof and I'm sure others find it weak as well.

• GRRM has made a point of saying that narrators are unreliable. Descriptions of Elia as sickly are could be part of the flawed POVs that have not been fully revealed to readers.
• She may have been terrified and unhappy when she joined the royal family and people perceived her as being frail and fragile, not recognizing that she was in a constant state of fear.
• We are told that Aerys suspected various people of poisoning or otherwise killing his newborn babies -- if there was an ongoing plot to kill Targaryen heirs, poisoning Elia so she was alive but unable to safely carry or deliver babies would have been a good strategy.
• As I mentioned earlier, I also believe that a descendant of the original Nymeria would gain strength from daily swims in the Rhoyne River. Relieved of the obligation to bear children and to live under the cloud of crazy Aerys, Elia may have become robust and healthy.

In a forum like this, where intelligent discussion is the coin of the realm, it's so much nicer to present your ideas without judging. Because this is a thread begun by Alexis, it is also nice to be polite to her as the host of the discussion. If you disagree, you can state your points and then depart; maybe even start a new thread where you present the lengthy, book-based evidence for your own opinion.