Elia Martell: Yes, another Septa Lemore speculation

[DarkSister1001]

I like this so much more than the Ashara theory.  Great job!

I just came upon this and still on page 1 of replies.  So some of what follows may have already been mentioned.  Someone asked why she didn't write to her brothers in Drone...possibly for the same reason Ned never told Cat about Jon, the child's safety.  As far as her choosing her son over her daughter, it's possibly another Blood & Cheese situation.  To the Dornish sons and daughters are equal.  She may have asked for her daughter to be spared, as the eldest, but the decision was made for her. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

7 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I like this so much more than the Ashara theory.  Great job!

I just came upon this and still on page 1 of replies.  So some of what follows may have already been mentioned.  Someone asked why she didn't write to her brothers in Drone...possibly for the same reason Ned never told Cat about Jon, the child's safety.  As far as her choosing her son over her daughter, it's possibly another Blood & Cheese situation.  To the Dornish sons and daughters are equal.  She may have asked for her daughter to be spared, as the eldest, but the decision was made for her. 

The question did come up and I've actually been thinking about this. So yes, there's the idea of secrets and protecting those you love a la Ned Stark with Jon and not telling Catelyn as you mentioned. But I had another thought about this.

Jon Arryn traveled to Dorne a year after the rebellion and took Prince Lewyn's bones back to Dorne. For one, Elia's bones are not mentioned and I guess she could have been buried in King's Landing. 

During that period, we know that Oberyn was trying to raise Dorne for Viseys and that all of this came to an end when Jon Arryn visited Dorne. What if he knew Elia was not dead? Ned doesn't seem to know how Elia died other than to say that she was raped by Gregor Clegane and put to the sword. We don't find out she got her head bashed in until ASoS. 

Jon Arryn as the Robert's Hand may have looked at the body and recognized that it was not her. Jon Arryn decides to not tell Robert because as Tywin Lannister put it,

"Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

And Jon Arryn may have thought the same thing, so he decides to let her live out her days after all the loss she suffered. He tells Doran what he knows. Doran commands his brother to stop with his plotting. Five years later, it's time for her to go underground with Jon Connington and Doran finds out she has died and that's the end of that. He never tells Oberyn anything because there's a chance this could have broken the relationship between the brothers.

If anything, F&B sort of reinforced the idea that yes, Aegon and his mother could have been spirited away by Varys before the city fell and was sacked by Tywin. He had the time to do it, may have started planning for after Rhaegar died on the Trident. If a man with a clubfoot can get a king who is high on the milk of the poppy and in constant pain out of there and spirit away his two remaining children, then I don't think Varys would have all that much trouble doing it.

[DarkSister1001]

34 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

For one, Elia's bones are not mentioned and I guess she could have been buried in King's Landing. 

I forgot about the bones!  Nice!  "Princess of Dorne" sounds very much like Ned saying Lady was "of the North" and he sent a honor guard to see her bones home.  I highly suspect Elia's would have been given the same respect.  KL was never really her home.  Especially the way Aerys treated her. 

Also, Lemore can't be Ashara bc Ashara is in Greywater Watch with her hubs, Howland. 

[Megorova]

You're ignoring one thing - Tywin Lannister was part of Aerys' court until late 281, and Rhaegar has married with Elia in Baelor's Sept in early 280, so Tywin was present there with his people.

Gregar served to Tywin, Tywin was Aerys' Hand, and both of them were living in Red Keep in King's Landing, until Tournament at Harrenhal. So both of them were present in KL, during Rhaegar's and Elia's wedding, so Gregar knew how Elia looked like.

And if Gregor has killed some random woman, istead of Elia, just because Elia wasn't there, then there was no reason for him to lie all this years about whom he killed.

So Elia Martell is dead. While Septa Lemore is, possibly, Lady Jeyne Swann. She is fAegon's mother, but fAegon is not Rhaegar's son, his father is, possibly, Barristan Selmy. And Ashara Dayne is Jyana Reed.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

32 minutes ago, Megorova said:

She is fAegon's mother, but fAegon is not Rhaegar's son, his father is, possibly, Barristan Selmy.

I fully accept that Elia is dead and buried, this is a speculation after all. But posters have brought up really good arguments from the text as to why she could be alive.

But for the love of whatever you believe in, please start your own thread with these speculations about Barristan having an 18 year old son even though all indication in Barry's POVs go contrary to him diddling some woman in the past almost 40 years.

[kleevedge]

32 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Ashara Dayne is Jyana Reed

I don't fully understand where the whole Ashara+Howland thing comes from. I don't remember any foreshadowing or set up for that theory. I always assumed Jyana Reed is actually Lyanna Reed (Lyanna Stark) and that Jojen is the name Howland is using to travel by. Meera would be their only child, which is why Bran is reminded of Arya so much by Meera, and Arya reminds Ned of Lyanna. As for Septa Lemore I believe she is Tyene Sand's mother. I'm pretty sure Elia's body was identifiable. Elia is described as flat chested while Tyrion had this to say of Lemore,

Quote

“The turtles have their charms, I will allow. Nothing delights me so much as the sight of a nice pair of shapely … shells.”

I believe Tyene Sand's mother is how Doran knew about Griff and when they landed, she's his inside woman.

[Platypus Rex]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

So Elia Martell is dead. While Septa Lemore is, possibly, Lady Jeyne Swann. She is fAegon's mother, but fAegon is not Rhaegar's son, his father is, possibly, Barristan Selmy. And Ashara Dayne is Jyana Reed.

I agree that (1) Elia is dead, and in any event not Lemore; (2) Young Griff is not Baby Aegon; (3) Lemore is Young Griff's mother.#3 is

Re #1, Elia was flat-chested, dumpy and plain in her prime; where as Lemore is still busty and gorgeous in her 40s.   And of course, other reasons that others have mentioned.

#3 is the main component of Lemore's secret.  Aegon is supposed to be the son of dead parents; so a living mother, who is not Elia, would be a dead giveaway that "Aegon" is "fAegon".

-----x

But Lady Jeyne Swann?  What would be the point?  No clues point to this, and it leads nowhere.

-----x

Lemore is Mellario.  Not only does tell us who fAegons mother is (Mellario), but his father as well (Doran).  And it also allows us to deduce where the real Aegon is.  Because (f)Aegon without (r)Aegon is a rather uncompelling subplot.  And if (f)Aegon is (r)Quentyn, then (f)Quentyn must be (r)Aegon.

It was the Tattered Prince who died on Dany's bed.  The Other Prince survived his confrontation with two dragons.  He is, after all, of the blood of the dragon.  He is now spending quality time with his new friend, Viserion, in a fully-stocked abandoned pyramid.  And he dreams of fire and blood.  And while everyone told him he took after his father, Doran, the truth is he takes after his mother, Elia.

Like Arianne, he started out resembling his father, but grew to resemble the mother as he aged.

[Wall Flower]

5 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I agree that (1) Elia is dead, and in any event not Lemore; (2) Young Griff is not Baby Aegon; (3) Lemore is Young Griff's mother.#3 is

Re #1, Elia was flat-chested, dumpy and plain in her prime; where as Lemore is still busty and gorgeous in her 40s.   And of course, other reasons that others have mentioned.

#3 is the main component of Lemore's secret.  Aegon is supposed to be the son of dead parents; so a living mother, who is not Elia, would be a dead giveaway that "Aegon" is "fAegon".

-----x

But Lady Jeyne Swann?  What would be the point?  No clues point to this, and it leads nowhere.

-----x

Lemore is Mellario.  Not only does tell us who fAegons mother is (Mellario), but his father as well (Doran).  And it also allows us to deduce where the real Aegon is.  Because (f)Aegon without (r)Aegon is a rather uncompelling subplot.  And if (f)Aegon is (r)Quentyn, then (f)Quentyn must be (r)Aegon.

It was the Tattered Prince who died on Dany's bed.  The Other Prince survived his confrontation with two dragons.  He is, after all, of the blood of the dragon.  He is now spending quality time with his new friend, Viserion, in a fully-stocked abandoned pyramid.  And he dreams of fire and blood.  And while everyone told him he took after his father, Doran, the truth is he takes after his mother, Elia.

Like Arianne, he started out resembling his father, but grew to resemble the mother as he aged.

Unfortunately, I agree that Elia is dead (fuck you Tywin). However, she was only flat-chested according to Cersei, who also said that Lyanna Stark was insipid. Howland Reed's story of the Knight of Laughing Tree describes the wife of the dragon prince as 'fairer still' than the fair maid of House Went and the World of Ice and Fire refers to her 'delicate beauty'. So I think calling her flat-chested, dumpy and plain may not be very accurate.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I do want to add a little something to this and that has some similarities to what may have happened in King's Landing, and that the fall of Winterfell to Theon.

After Bran and Rickon "escape", they are replaced by the children of the miller's wife of Acorn Water. A mother and her two children are killed to cover up the fact that Bran and Rickon were never found. And she was never meant to die until she started pleading for her sons' lives.

[Megorova]

I don't want to flood your thread with off-topic info, so I'll write only this one post, and you don't have to reply to it.

(This post is only for Alexis-something-Rose, so, guys and girls, don't read, nor reply to it)

15 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But for the love of whatever you believe in, please start your own thread with these speculations about Barristan having an 18 year old son even though all indication in Barry's POVs go contrary to him diddling some woman in the past almost 40 years.

 

Spoiler

From Barristan's own POV it is obvious, that he did noticed women, and, furthermore, was even in love with Ashara Dayne. So it's not like it's totally impossible, that he wasn't celibate. If he was given love potion, and then seduced, then he could have a child, that he doesn't even know about, because afterwards his memory about that event was erased my magic (how Dany has forgotten what has actually happened to her son).

He fell/was in love with Ashara in late 281, and he saved Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from Kingswood Brotherhood also in 281, some time prior the Tournament at Harrenhal.

My theory, is that the septa, that was with Lady Jeyne, was actually Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour. She has prepared love potion, that Jeyne gave to Barristan (there was another Jeyne, that, possibly, has seduced her "prince" with usage of love potion, and had a helper, who has prepared that potion - Jeyne Westerling has seduced Robb Stark, by giving him love potion, prepared by Sybell Spicer, granddaughter of Maggy the Frog). Their son, fAegon, was conceived in Kingswood, at the same night, as Elia's Aegon was conceived in King's Landing, when the comet was passing in the sky above them all. Shiera Seastar knew about the prophecy about new Azor Ahai, that he will be born under the bleeding stars, so she has tried to orchestrate events, to create the promised Prince - son of Lady Jeyne Swann (who was, possibly, bloodrelated to Blackfyres, because, maybe, Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was mother of Larra Rogare, and thus all current Blackfyres are bloodrelated to Swanns), and Barristan Selmy (who is, possibly, son of Aenys Blackfyre's daughter, that Aenys has brought to Westeros, when he was attending the Great Council in 233).

My theory is based on elements from Dunk&Egg novels, so if you haven't read them, or haven't noticed things, that I noticed, then, obviously, my theory seems to you as gibberish, even though it, maybe, isn't.

In The Sworn Sword it was revealed, that Lady Shiera is dancing with demons, and that she's bathing in blood. Or, in other words, that she's a shadowbinder, and user of blood magic. Thus, based on this and various other clues - Shiera Seastar is the shadowbinder Quaithe and the Three-Eyed Crow <- yes, this too.

Also in the same novel, Egg has said, that his sister, Rhae, has tried to give him love potion, to make him to marry her. And who, do you think, has prepared that potion for her, if Shiera Seastar was their relative and courtier-sorceress? Who else, if not her?

In The Mystery Knight, there was another clue about Shiera being user of shadow magic. This time we were shown shadow-glamour in action. Maynard Plumm was actually Bloodraven. And the magic, that made him to look like Plumm, was concealed in his moonstone brooch.

Bloodraven is "Sun and Stars" and parallel to The Lion of Night, and Shiera is "Moon" and parallel to Lion's wife, the Maiden-Made-of-Light. So Maynard's moonstone brooch, is a clue, that the shadow-glamour, that he's "wearing" was created by Shiera.

ADWD, Jon I: " "Snow," the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream."

In this fragment, the moon is Shiera, she was trying to contact Jon thru his dream, same as she did with Dany; the cave of night is the cave of the Children, and thus, the Weirwood is the source and cause of the Long Night; the sun, that is hiding in that cave, is Bloodraven; and the nights are starless, because Bloodraven is Sun and Stars, and he is hiding in that cave.

Dany in her last chapter in ADWD saw, that Quaithe's mask is made of starlight. Maybe, because that mask is made of weirwood, and Bloodraven is connected to the weirwoodnet, so in Quaithe's mask Dany saw Bloodraven's soul. It was Shiera, who has binded Bloodraven to the Weirwood, because they are GRRM's parallels to wizard Merlin, and his lovers Morgana le Fay (Mor in Welsh means the sea, like in Shiera's name - Star of the Sea) and water fairy Nimue, and Irish Crow Goddess and Queen of Phantoms Morrigan (in Welsh and Irish mythology Morrigan and Morgana le Fay are sometimes seen as the same person). Do you know, how Merlin died? -> his lover, Nimue, has binded him to a magic tree in a cave, and then left him there.

Other elements of this theory, is that Barristan is a parallel to Florian the Fool, and Jeyne Swann is a parallel to Jonquil <- this is a toy-story from The Hedge Knight novel. Aerion Brightflame's people burned dolls of Florian and Jonquil, and ripped apart the mummer's dragon <- also a toy from that play by Dornish mummers. fAegon is mummer's dragon from Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. So the fate of those three toys in The Hedge Knight, is a foreshadowing of what will happen to Barristan, Jeyne, and their son, fAegon.

And the reason, why I think, that Barristan may be a dragonseed, and grandson of Aenys Blackfyre, is based on the history, causes/reasons of Blackfyre Rebellions, and the way how Barristan has managed to survive, or to save someone in a very dire situations - 1. How he saved Aerys from Duskendale; 2. How he saved Dany from Manticore; 3. How he managed to escape from guards in King's Landing, even though he was unarmed; 4. How he managed to survive in the Battle at Trident; 5. How he defeated Hizdahr's guardian - all of this can't be explained by pure luck. So, I think, that Barristan is a dragonseed, and he has a gift of foresight, and that's how he managed to do all of that - he is able to see a future, just a few seconds, before it will happen.

That's not all, but if this didn't convinced you even a bit, that my theory about fAegon, being Jeyne Swann's and Barristan's son, could be plausible, then let's wait until release of TWOW, and then we will return here. Ok? Ok

 

[asongofheresy]

20 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I forgot about the bones!  Nice!  "Princess of Dorne" sounds very much like Ned saying Lady was "of the North" and he sent a honor guard to see her bones home.  I highly suspect Elia's would have been given the same respect.  KL was never really her home.  Especially the way Aerys treated her. 

Also, Lemore can't be Ashara bc Ashara is in Greywater Watch with her hubs, Howland. 

why would you think Ned's best friend will marry Ned's lover? We are told Ashara was in love with Ned and she died because her heart was broken. There is no Howland/Ashara in any book to prove this crack ship - and it is disrespectful to all three imo. 

[asongofheresy]

4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I do want to add a little something to this and that has some similarities to what may have happened in King's Landing, and that the fall of Winterfell to Theon.

Winterfell was taken by Theon the same way Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch took Maegor's Holdfast. Later when Luwin counsels Theon to not open the gates to "Reek," he does just that, which leads to the Sack of Winterfell. 

But the interesting part and that could somewhat mirror the events of King's Landing is Bran and Rickon's disappearances before the Sack of Winterfell. To replace them, Theon kills the boys of Acorn Water and their mother is killed as well while she begs for her sons' lives. The lie Theon was telling demanded three lives, a mother and her two children.

In King's Landing, we have Elia and her two children. Tywin tells us that Rhaenys was killed in Rhaegar's chambers. Elia gets her head bashed in after Aegon is dead. So we have three deaths. But if the story about the Pisswater baby is true (and I think it is true) and if Elia is indeed alive, then saving those two lives demanded three in return.

I know, it's a bit of a stretch, but this is like Davos sending Edric Storm away with the same number of men Viserys and Dany escaped Dragonstone with.

It is also interesting Viserys was smugled from KL at night without his mother the same way Edric Storm, but Rhaella's departing was more public? As Jaime talks about handmaids whispering about her condition 

[DarkSister1001]

5 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

why would you think Ned's best friend will marry Ned's lover? We are told Ashara was in love with Ned and she died because her heart was broken. There is no Howland/Ashara in any book to prove this crack ship -

Since this isn't an Ashara thread, I'll keep this short:  Only Lady Allyria said they were in love and there were rumors but nothing that had been confirmed.  Harwin said he doubted it.  It was rumored that she died by suicide bc of either the loss of her brother, lover or child.  Way too many rumors and suppositions to say that it's cannon that she and Ned fell in love and she died of a broken heart.  The only disrespect is to claim that they were lovers, as per Ned's reaction to Cat.

Besides ALL theories have a degree of error until proven true or false.  That's the fun of this. 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Since this isn't an Ashara thread, I'll keep this short:  Only Lady Allyria said they were in love and there were rumors but nothing that had been confirmed.  Harwin said he doubted it.  It was rumored that she died by suicide bc of either the loss of her brother, lover or child.  Way too many rumors and suppositions to say that it's cannon that she and Ned fell in love and she died of a broken heart.  The only disrespect is to claim that they were lovers, as per Ned's reaction to Cat.

Besides ALL theories have a degree of error until proven true or false.  That's the fun of this. 

No, I think Ned's reaction was normal because he did get angry when Cersei used Ashara to wex him, we also know he reacted coldly when Robert mentioned there was only one woman that made Ned forget about his honor. Allyria is sister of Ashara I am sure she knows more about her sister than all other characters and Harwin said he knew about Ned and Ashara since he was younger than Arya though he doubted it he also said there was no dishonor in their relationship. But theories also needs to be supported by book canon imo. Though I must admit Jyana is an interesting name as it is tied to Arryn and Lannisters. 

[DarkSister1001]

2 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

No, I think Ned's reaction was normal because he did get angry when Cersei used Ashara to wex him

I'd be pissed off too if someone was talking about my BFFs SO being dishonorable.

2 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

we also know he reacted coldly when Robert mentioned there was only one woman that made Ned forget about his honor.

His sister.

3 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Allyria is sister of Ashara I am sure she knows more about her sister than all other characters

Speculation. 

3 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Harwin said he knew about Ned and Ashara since he was younger than Arya though he doubted it he also said there was no dishonor in their relationship.

"I heard it once too" - Harwin.  Heard isn't the same as knowing and only once.  Oberyn heard Tyrion had a tail.

4 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

But theories also needs to be supported by book canon imo.

Of course!  But some have more to back them up than others.  That's why I said degrees.  If it's something you're interested in there are a few threads out there. 

Look at the way Howland described her eyes to his children. 

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes

That's not the way you describe your best friend's wife's eyes, that's the way you describe your wife's eyes.  Especially to your children.

Quote

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Cat knows she's pretty but refers to her eyes as "haunting"...memorable.  Which leads me back to this thread.  If someone had the Targ eye color of purple (in any variation) it would surely be remarked upon.  It's a staple of their appearance.  If Lemore had Targ eyes, we'd know it. 

Barristan's comment about "kitchen drab" makes me think that even though Elia was pretty she was not nearly as pretty as Ashara and probably had the more common brown or black hair/eyes.  You don't have to be gorgeous to marry in to a great or noble house.  And, if your not walking around with remarkable eyes and drop-dead gorgeous, it might be easier for you to hide on something like a pole boat.  Especially if you grew up in a castle on a river.

Regarding Elia's health, she may have been delicate but not so much that she couldn't travel.  In early 280 AC she went to KL to marry Rhaegar, then they moved to Dragonstone.  Later that same year, she gave birth to Rhaenys then she was bed-ridden for half a year (bringing to just shy of mid-281 AC, the year of the False Spring) then she went to Harrenhal for the tourney, after that she traveled back to Dragonstone.  Keep in mind the storms that rack that area, traveling to and from there would have been hard on anyone yet she survived it, even as delicate as she was.  Aegon was born shortly thereafter, she was possibly pregnant at the Tourney.  That is a LOT on a body so I think she may have been stronger than she appeared. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, DarkSister1001 said:

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

we also know he reacted coldly when Robert mentioned there was only one woman that made Ned forget about his honor.

His sister.

Robert meant Wylla.

[DarkSister1001]

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Robert meant Wylla.

Yes, that's what Robert meant.  But that's not why Ned reacted that way.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Barristan's comment about "kitchen drab" makes me think that even though Elia was pretty she was not nearly as pretty as Ashara and probably had the more common brown or black hair/eyes.  You don't have to be gorgeous to marry in to a great or noble house.  And, if your not walking around with remarkable eyes and drop-dead gorgeous, it might be easier for you to hide on something like a pole boat.  Especially if you grew up in a castle on a river.

I think the journey through the Sorrows is a bit revealing with regard to Lemore. 

For one, she is terrified when they are crossing the Sorrows. She believes the stories of the Shrouded Lord as much as Yandry and Ysilla do. There's some uneasiness, but those three specifically don't find any of this funny. Lemore is very jumpy. 

When Tyrion driven overboard for his forced swim, Lemore is the one who forces the water from his lungs. If this is Elia, then this is something she could have picked up at the Water Gardens. We know the Martells have a lot of children from all walks of life fostered there, so I imagine they and their servants would know the basics of CPR in case one of those children drowned.

And here's the other thing;

The only way not to breathe the fog is not to breathe. "Garin's Curse is only greyscale," said Tyrion. The curse was oft seen in children, especially in damp, cold climes. The afflicted flesh stiffened, calcified, and cracked, though the dwarf had read that greyscale's progress could be stayed by limes, mustard poultices, and scalding-hot baths (the maesters said) or by prayer, sacrifice, and fasting (the septons insisted). (Tyrion V, ADWD 18)

Lemore, the septa, has sure been praying for Tyrion. She tells him as much. But she takes a completely different route from what the septons believe and prescribe. Instead, she bathes Tyrion with vinegar the whole time he is out. And Jon Connington takes her advice to heart enough that he washes his hand with terrible wine since vinegar could raise a few eyebrows.

But twice, when the expertise of a maester was needed, it was Lemore who took over for Haldon, both with CPR and greyscale prevention.

GRRM shined a light on Lemore's know how when he could have chosen to have Haldon do these things, because presumably it's part of the job description.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

5 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

It is also interesting Viserys was smugled from KL at night without his mother the same way Edric Storm, but Rhaella's departing was more public? As Jaime talks about handmaids whispering about her condition 

Jaime's recollection of this is different than Viserys's. Jaime says that both Rhaella and Viserys were packed off for Dragonstone after word of Rhaegar's death on the Trident reached them and when Elia tried to leave with them he forbade her. (Jaime V, ASoS 37)

Viserys was a boy of 7 at the time.

[Platypus Rex]

17 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Unfortunately, I agree that Elia is dead (fuck you Tywin). However, she was only flat-chested according to Cersei, who also said that Lyanna Stark was insipid. Howland Reed's story of the Knight of Laughing Tree describes the wife of the dragon prince as 'fairer still' than the fair maid of House Went and the World of Ice and Fire refers to her 'delicate beauty'. So I think calling her flat-chested, dumpy and plain may not be very accurate.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and her beauty in some eyes does not contradict Cersei's observation that Elia is flat-chested.    Meanwhile, Tyrion's focus on Lemore's cleavage, and his randy fantasies about her bouncing bosom, suggest Lemore is not particularly flat.  Cersei may be biased, but a theory is stronger if it takes the clues as they are found, rather than explaining them away.