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Alexis-something-Rose

Elia Martell: Yes, another Septa Lemore speculation

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16 minutes ago, Seams said:

 

  • As I mentioned earlier, I also believe that a descendant of the original Nymeria would gain strength from daily swims in the Rhoyne River. Relieved of the obligation to bear children and to live under the cloud of crazy Aerys, Elia may have become robust and healthy.

 

This is what I think too.

The Orphans of the Greenblood are said to have healing arts, perhaps Rhoynish descendants healing is stronger in the Rhoyne?

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1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Not having more kids is beside the point. Lemore being  neither frail or sickly proves your theory wrong.

This is a speculation and it is no more crazy than anything else in these forums. And some of us are having fun with this. You are being unnecessarily rude.

No one is forcing you to participate in this. You go on believing what you want about Elia. I don't believe she was as frail as people made her out to be. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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55 minutes ago, Seams said:

Lol. Well, now that you have definitively resolved all questions in your own mind, you can leave this discussion to those of us who are interested in exploring ideas. I happen to disagree with your definitive proof and I'm sure others find it weak as well.

  • GRRM has made a point of saying that narrators are unreliable. Descriptions of Elia as sickly are could be part of the flawed POVs that have not been fully revealed to readers.
  • She may have been terrified and unhappy when she joined the royal family and people perceived her as being frail and fragile, not recognizing that she was in a constant state of fear.
  • We are told that Aerys suspected various people of poisoning or otherwise killing his newborn babies -- if there was an ongoing plot to kill Targaryen heirs, poisoning Elia so she was alive but unable to safely carry or deliver babies would have been a good strategy.
  • As I mentioned earlier, I also believe that a descendant of the original Nymeria would gain strength from daily swims in the Rhoyne River. Relieved of the obligation to bear children and to live under the cloud of crazy Aerys, Elia may have become robust and healthy.

In a forum like this, where intelligent discussion is the coin of the realm, it's so much nicer to present your ideas without judging. Because this is a thread begun by Alexis, it is also nice to be polite to her as the host of the discussion. If you disagree, you can state your points and then depart; maybe even start a new thread where you present the lengthy, book-based evidence for your own opinion.

 

30 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This is a speculation and it is no more crazy than anything else in these forums. And some of us are having fun with this. You are being unnecessarily rude.

No one is forcing you to participate in this. You go on believing what you want about Elia. I don't believe she was as frail as people made her out to be. 

Yikes, didn't realise I was being a douche for pointing out a flawed argument. Kind of surprising reactions when you guys aren't always the super lovable softies yourselves.

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9 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Yikes, didn't realise I was being a douche for pointing out a flawed argument. Kind of surprising reactions when you guys aren't always the super lovable softies yourselves.

No. Don't do that. It's the tone of your reply that left to be desired. 

There are plenty people who disagree with this in the thread. But no one was rude about it. I saw some things in the text that made me wonder about Elia. And there were some replies in other threads that made me wonder even more. This is why I started in the first place. I don't expect anyone to agree with what I have to say at all. 

And I am a lovable softie.

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1 minute ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

No. Don't do that. It's the tone of your reply that left to be desired. 

There are plenty people who disagree with this in the thread. But no one was rude about it. I saw some things in the text that made me wonder about Elia. And there were some replies in other threads that made me wonder even more. This is why I started in the first place. I don't expect anyone to agree with what I have to say at all. 

And I am a lovable softie.

Please point out what was rude?

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10 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Could it be that this is one of those proxy moments, where something else is going on and the "children" are just the proxy ? Was Elia pregnant in Oberyn's mind ? Was he throwing the duel on purpose ?

It could have been a proxy moment, but he could have just as easily said "you murdered her son," instead of "you murdered her children."

I don't know that Oberyn would throw the duel on purpose. But he did know Gregor was a goner no matter what happened to him because he used poison on him. 

10 hours ago, SirArthur said:

 Oberyn is indeed a character, where I am not sure that he knows about all of Doran's plans. At least we know, that he doesn't know about the state of Elia or her children and has to believe a Lannister. 

I think there's a difference between the rumors he heard about the way Elia and the children died vs what he knew of Doran's plans.

I am fairly confident that he knew all of Doran's plans. Doran sends Oberyn to King's Landing to look for allies (Oberyn seems to zero in on Tyrion and Sansa) and take the measure of Joffrey. By the time Oberyn arrives in King's Landing, there's a very very good chance that he and Doran are fully aware and have confirmation of what Dany has been up to in Essos, which would be why Oberyn is looking for allies. 

In the Soiled Knight chapter, we find out two things. We find out that Doran knows Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys because he tells Arys Oakheart about it, which means that he must have received some kind of report from King's Landing.

The other thing we find out is that Quentyn was seeking passage for Essos with his companions and was about Dorne's business. Thirteen chapters into AFFC, we already know that Quentyn has left Dorne. 

As far as the rumors about Elia's death, even Ned who was in King's Landing after the Sack didn't seem to know how she died. He talks about her being put to the sword. The rape and the way Aegon died seem to be common knowledge, but the way Elia died, until Gregor made his confession doesn't seem to have been a known thing, which is a bit strange. 

I think the plans went off the rails the moment Oberyn found out Gregor had been summoned to King's Landing to act as champion. 

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I like the theory but i have something to add and some big problem:

to add

- It also explains why Doran never went to war with the Lannisters and was very patient, till Aegon was an adult and could marry his daugther or at least is excepted as a king.

- The woman in the Red Keep fought for her child like only a mother fights, so if Aegon is alive than also his mother, than another mother and child died.

problem:

The children of Dearon the good were looking Dornish and he married a Dornish woman. So Agon could not have inherit the silver Targaryan hair from his mother, because black is dominate between Targaryans en Dornish.

Saying that: Daeron the good could have been a bastard himself like teh Daemon blackfyre supporters say, in that case we not know 100% shore that the black hair of Dornish are dominant and that Elia and Rheagar could have children with silver hair of both kind of hair!

Edited by Seaserpent

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First off welcome :)

20 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

The children of Dearon the good were looking Dornish and he married a Dornish woman. So Agon could not have inherit the silver Targaryan hair from his mother, because black is dominate between Targaryans en Dornish.

I try not to bring the side material into this because I believe ASoIaF should be able to stand on its own without the reader having to refer to everything else. I personally find it muddies the waters more often than not when it comes to speculating something in the current storyline.  

That said, Daeron had four sons from Mariah Martell. We know Baelor Breakspear had dark hair and dark eyes, but we also know that Maekar had violet eyes and pale blond hair. 

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5 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

First off welcome :)

I try not to bring the side material into this because I believe ASoIaF should be able to stand on its own without the reader having to refer to everything else. I personally find it muddies the waters more often than not when it comes to speculating something in the current storyline.  

That said, Daeron had four sons from Mariah Martell. We know Baelor Breakspear had dark hair and dark eyes, but we also know that Maekar had violet eyes and pale blond hair. 

Thanks Alexis

I think the side material is of some importance, but not everything is 100% reliable material.

I just said i have a little problem with the genetics, but you are right by saying; that Daeron has both silver and dark haired sons. So there is not really a dominant Gen for haircolor and Aegon could even be looking like Quinten.

I think Lemoire is in fact Elia, because it is so strange how Doran is playing the game. When Elia is not dead and her son is alive, sending Arianne on this quest makes a lot of sens, because Agon will accept her offcourse. The quinten-journey makes also more sens, because freeing the dragons will slow Dany down and a marriage will be even better. He is betting on two horses and in both cases he will win it! There is no reason for Doran to send Arianne to somebody who only says that he is Aegon, without any evidence. 

I think illryio has a very dornish name and Doran and Oberyn have many friends in Essos. Ashara is more likely dead or with Howland reet in the Neck. 

 

Edited by Seaserpent

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On 9/15/2018 at 3:50 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

@Seaserpent, in the Arianne sample chapter from WoW,

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Doran receives a letter from Jon Connington before he sends Arianne on her way. Unless Doran is a great mummer and lying to his daughter through his teeth before he sends her into danger, then he doesn't know anything.

Or maybe the letter was send on his command to tell Doran about the arrival of aegon and that was signe to send Arianne to him, but yeah it is a bit of a stretch.

 

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So I thought I'd put this in this thread. I was following a different thread "A Dark Horse for a Perfumed Seneschal" and it sort of occurred to me that Quaithe's warning to Dany might be connected to one of the visions she has in the HotU. I think Quaithe even helps clarify it.

Quote

 

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire . . . mother of dragons slayer of lies . . . (Dany IV, Clash 48)
"No. Hear me, Daemerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." (Dany II, ADWD 11)

 

There is this assumption that Aegon is the cloth dragon and the mummer's dragon, but when I start looking at what Quaithe is saying, then I think the interpretation of the mummer's dragon is wrong. Quaithe's warning comes in chapter 22 of ADWD. 

Quaithe goes about her warning to Dany in twos. She warns her that the glass candles are burning and she warns her about the pale mare.

After that she warns of the people that are coming to her, people that are traveling together. 

We've got "kraken and dark flame." Victarion and Moqorro are traveling together to Meereen.

We've got "lion and griffin." That's Tyrion and Jon Connington. Tyrion along with Jon Conn was headed to Meereen to seek Dany out. With Jon Connington we have Young Griff, or Aegon. But Quaithe is not warning Dany about the mummer's dragon here. She could have said the "lion and the mummer's dragon." She doesn't. Quaithe is warning Dany of the lion and the griffin instead.

And then we get "the sun's son and the mummer's dragon." Quentyn is the sun's son. And if we go with Quaithe warning Dany of people that are traveling together, then Quentyn is not traveling with Aegon, nor does he know the kid exists. Quentyn signs up with the Windblown in chapter 6, The Merchant's Man, as a ploy to get himself to Meereen with his remaining companions.

Quote

The Windblown went back thirty years, and had known but one commander, the soft-spoken, sad-eyed Pentoshi nobleman called the Tattered Prince. His hair and mail were silver-grey, but his ragged cloak was made of twists of cloth of many colors, blue and grey and purple, red and gold and green, magenta and vermilion and cerulean, all faded by the sun.  (The Windblown, ADWD 25)

That's not to mention that Rags agreed to help Quentyn steal a dragon.

Save for the actual vision that Dany has of Rhaegar, Elia and baby Aegon, I am willing to wager that the vision from the HotU and Quaithe's cryptic message have nothing to do with Aegon/Young Griff. 

And like I said previously, if Aegon is the real deal and things point in that direction, then there's only one woman in the world who will go to great lengths to give him his birthright.

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I'm still under the assumption Septa Lemore is Tyene Snake's mother. We know she was a Septa and that Arianne, Tyene, and another Sand Snake went to visit her when they were young, at what age I'm unsure. Now Doran often refers to having a "friend at court", now that could easily have been Varys. Varys is the most likely to know where and how to get to Dany, and that's how Quentyn was able to make the journey to get to her, but Varys would also have cardinal knowledge of (f)Aegon. Now I believe (f)Aegon was a backup plan if Varys were to lose control of Dany, which it is seemingly more likely, as Dany refused to go back to Illyrio's palace. If Doran and Varys were working together for awhile it is highly likely that when Arianne and the snakes (good name for a band) went to visit Lemore, they were sent with a retainer, possibly with Yandry and Ysilla, and from there met up with Varys, (f)Aegon, and Lemore to carry out a plan. I believe that plan was to send Septa Lemore, Yandry, Ysilla, (f)Aegon, and the others across the narrow sea, meaning Doran knew about the plan from the start. As to why Septa Lemore would have to stay hidden I'm unsure, as a random Septa from Westeros probably wouldn't be likely noticeable in Essos. While the small details like when Septa Lemore met up with (f)Aegon may be loosely based, I still find it highly possible that Doran was part of Varys's (f)Aegon plan.

Edited by kleevedge

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I'm convinced Aegon is Illyrio's son and a Blackfyre descendant from his mothers side. So I obviously don't agree with this thread.

 

The only Septa Lemore theory I have heard that hasn't made my eyes roll is that she could be Wenda the White Fawn. Granted, there is very little evidence for it other than the joint Toyne association and some patchy symbolism around Arya. But if she is somebody famous that has been mentioned in the books, at least nothing contradicts it.

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44 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

I'm still under the assumption Septa Lemore is Tyene Snake's mother. We know she was a Septa and that Arianne, Tyene, and another Sand Snake went to visit her when they were young, at what age I'm unsure.

There was a time I thought that Tyene's mother may have been the septa, but Tyene is a blue-eyed, blonde girl with fair skin. Given the description we have of Oberyn, black hair and black eyes, salty Dornishman, Tyene pulls toward her mother in looks. And again, Tyrion makes no mention of Septa Lemore's eyes when he does comment on Jon Connington's pale blue eyes and talks about Young Griff's as well. 

44 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

Now I believe (f)Aegon was a backup plan if Varys were to lose control of Dany, which it is seemingly more likely, as Dany refused to go back to Illyrio's palace.

I completely disagree with this. I don't believe Aegon was the backup plan. I think he was the plan. All along. Illyrio brokered the deal with Drogo for Dany and thought she was going to die in the Dothraki sea. If he thought those eggs were going to hatch, as Jorah said, he would have sat on them himself to hatch them. Dany becomes important the moment Illyrio finds out she's hatched those three eggs he gave her. That's why he sends Barristan to bring her to Pentos. 

I'd be shocked if Doran knows anything. As far as the friends at court go, I assumed that Aron Santagar was one until he was killed in the Bread Riots. We don't know who Oberyn made friends with outside Tyrion and Sansa, so maybe it's someone connected to him. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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20 minutes ago, Makk said:

I'm convinced Aegon is Illyrio's son and a Blackfyre descendant from his mothers side. So I obviously don't agree with this thread.

You and about 98% of everyone are convinced that Aegon is Illyrio's son or a Blackfyre, which is ugh! 

I've never been on board with this at all. I think if there's a Blackfyre in the story, it's the guy who helped Quentyn in his idiot quest to steal dragons and wants Pentos where Illyrio lives.

20 minutes ago, Makk said:

The only Septa Lemore theory I have heard that hasn't made my eyes roll is that she could be Wenda the White Fawn. Granted, there is very little evidence for it other than the joint Toyne association and some patchy symbolism around Arya. But if she is somebody famous that has been mentioned in the books, at least nothing contradicts it.

Really? What interest does Wenda have in doing this? I heard the speculation about the septa in disguise that Barristan saved. I just don't see it personally. I don't know if you have a different speculation on this. I would be surprised if Wenda surfaces in this story, but we will see in 100 years when Winds is finally out!

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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34 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

Now Doran often refers to having a "friend at court", now that could easily have been Varys.

I don't think it's at all likely that Varys could be the 'friend at court' privy to the Trystane plan, though, as he was still in hiding or exile or wherever he went to after Tyrion escaped and until he re-emerged to kill Kevan and Pycelle. We don't know yet where Varys was, but he certainly wasn't attending council meetings in this period...

34 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

As to why Septa Lemore would have to stay hidden I'm unsure, as a random Septa from Westeros probably wouldn't be likely noticeable in Essos.

But Lemore did say that a Septa's robes would 'scream out Westeros', so I guess that means she'd be VERY noticeable in Essos :dunno:

So far, Elia is the only 'secret' identity for Lemore that works for me.

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1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

We don't know yet where Varys was, but he certainly wasn't attending council meetings in this period...

No but his "little birds" are definitely still at King's Landing, and do you really believe Varys doesn't know what's going on at court? He still could be passing the information to Doran regardless if he's at the actual council meetings or not.

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

But Lemore did say that a Septa's robes would 'scream out Westeros', so I guess that means she'd be VERY noticeable in Essos

Ya but a Septa in Essos really has no significance unless the specific Septa is of importance, which Tyene's mother really isn't besides her possible connection with (f)Aegon, that nobody should be privy too.

Edited by kleevedge

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

All along. Illyrio brokered the deal with Drogo for Dany and thought she was going to die in the Dothraki sea. If he thought those eggs were going to hatch, as Jorah said, he would have sat on them himself to hatch them.

The value of those eggs are immense, I don't think he would waste that just for Dany to die in the Dothraki Sea and let the eggs go to nothing. Illyrio obviously had to know something about hatching eggs, and how Targaryens would put the eggs that did hatch in cribs with Targaryen children. (Of course eggs don't necessarily need a Targaryen to hatch) but i do believe he felt Dany would have the ability to hatch the eggs. Now on (f)Aegon being a backup plan, was poorly said, I think he is the main goal to make king, but Dany's main use was the dragons, whether she were to marry (f)Aegon or just find a way to tame the dragons away from Dany then kill her im unsure.

Edited by kleevedge

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On 9/12/2018 at 10:30 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There is zero doubt that the Martell women are deadly. Oberyn's daughters in particular. Just based on what we know of Arianne and her cousins, two of whom are working under disguises (Sarella at the Citadel and Tyene as a septa in King's Landing), I think Elia may well be like them. I don't think being nice and kind or being sickly makes a person meek or helpless. I think those women are all cut from the same cloth..

Elia clearly was a different sort even if she possibly had the same steel as the Sandsnakes underneath. You'll need to present some textual evidence for your supposition she had that steel. 

On 9/14/2018 at 1:53 AM, Seams said:
  • GRRM has made a point of saying that narrators are unreliable. Descriptions of Elia as sickly are could be part of the flawed POVs that have not been fully revealed to readers.
  • She may have been terrified and unhappy when she joined the royal family and people perceived her as being frail and fragile, not recognizing that she was in a constant state of fear.
  • We are told that Aerys suspected various people of poisoning or otherwise killing his newborn babies -- if there was an ongoing plot to kill Targaryen heirs, poisoning Elia so she was alive but unable to safely carry or deliver babies would have been a good strategy.
  • As I mentioned earlier, I also believe that a descendant of the original Nymeria would gain strength from daily swims in the Rhoyne River. Relieved of the obligation to bear children and to live under the cloud of crazy Aerys, Elia may have become robust and healthy.

 

No, she was actually weak and sickly her whole life.

These from Oberyn, who knew her best of all and is not a potentially unreliable narrator in this context:

Quote

 

"Do you recall the tale I told you of our first meeting, Imp?" Prince Oberyn asked, as the Bastard of Godsgrace knelt before him to fasten his greaves. "It was not for your tail alone that my sister and I came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest of sorts. A quest that took us to Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock . . . but our true destination was marriage. Doran was betrothed to Lady Mellario of Norvos, so he had been left behind as castellan of Sunspear. My sister and I were yet unpromised.

"Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister's suitors. There was Little Lord Lazyeye, Squire Squishlips, one I named the Whale That Walks, that sort of thing. The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn't look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue."

 

and

Quote

 

Tyrion had to grin. "You were speaking of my sister?"

"Cersei promised Elia to show you to us. The day before we were to sail, whilst my mother and your father were closeted together, she and Jaime took us down to your nursery. Your wet nurse tried to send us off, but your sister was having none of that. 'He's mine,' she said, 'and you're just a milk cow, you can't tell me what to do. Be quiet or I'll have my father cut your tongue out. A cow doesn't need a tongue, only udders.'"

"Her Grace learned charm at an early age," said Tyrion, amused by the notion of his sister claiming him as hers. "She's never been in any rush to claim me since, the gods know.

"Cersei even undid your swaddling clothes to give us a better look," the Dornish prince continued. "You did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on your scalp. Perhaps your head was larger than most . . . but there was no tail, no beard, neither teeth nor claws, and nothing between your legs but a tiny pink cock. After all the wonderful whispers, Lord Tywin's Doom turned out to be just a hideous red infant with stunted legs. Elia even made the noise that young girls make at the sight of infants, I'm sure you've heard it. The same noise they make over cute kittens and playful puppies. I believe she wanted to nurse you herself, ugly as you were. When I commented that you seemed a poor sort of monster, your sister said, 'He killed my mother,' and twisted your little cock so hard I thought she was like to pull it off. You shrieked, but it was only when your brother Jaime said, 'Leave him be, you're hurting him,' that Cersei let go of you. 'It doesn't matter,' she told us. 'Everyone says he's like to die soon. He shouldn't even have lived this long.'"

 

Elia was nothing like the Sandsnakes. 
She was always weak and sickly, and she was a "girly-girl" cooing over even the ugliest of babies - not something you'd think of as a Sandsnake.

Edited by corbon
mis-addressed the first quote

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