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Alexis-something-Rose

Elia Martell: Yes, another Septa Lemore speculation

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22 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Jaime's recollection of this is different than Viserys's. Jaime says that both Rhaella and Viserys were packed off for Dragonstone after word of Rhaegar's death on the Trident reached them and when Elia tried to leave with them he forbade her. (Jaime V, ASoS 37)

Viserys was a boy of 7 at the time.

Oh okay maybe I just pay too much attention to Rhaella (bias confirmed) than poor Viserys :/ 

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On 12/13/2018 at 5:56 AM, Jova Snow said:

It is also interesting Viserys was smugled from KL at night without his mother ...

Where did you get this idea from? I don't recall, and can't find, anything implying this?

On 12/13/2018 at 6:23 AM, Jova Snow said:

No, I think Ned's reaction was normal because he did get angry when Cersei used Ashara to wex him, 

Err, no he didn't.

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She slapped him.
"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

 

I don't know if I need to search further forward or back, but he's not angry at her in any part of this passage. It starts with him dryly responding to  her slap after he rebuffed her attempt to seduce him. At no stage is there any indication of any anger in his response, well past the mention of Ashara.

On 12/13/2018 at 6:23 AM, Jova Snow said:

we also know he reacted coldly when Robert mentioned there was only one woman that made Ned forget about his honor. 

 
Ned reacted coldly when Robert bought up Jon's mother (because he's hiding the secret that it was Lyanna, to Rhaegar, voluntarily), not when he bought up a woman causing him to lose his honour - that came after the cold reply. His next response was anger, not because of the honour thing but because Robert is ignoring Ned's clear social signal (coldness) to drop what is a very sticky subject (for Ned) between the two of them. Ned's angry response is directly and explicitly aimed at killing this dangerous conversation ("Nor will I. Let it be..."), with the faux excuse being his honour as a secondary addendum to the statement.
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"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"
"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"
Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."
We see elsewhere Ned is actually not terribly concerned for his honour - thats just the impression some other people get. Ned is perfectly willing to sacrifice his honour for those he loves, or for truth, or for doing the right thing. Robert knows it...
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Robert slapped Ned on the back. "Ah, say that I'm a better king than Aerys and be done with it. You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark. I'm still young, and now that you're here with me, things will be different. 

 

On 12/13/2018 at 6:23 AM, Jova Snow said:

 Allyria is sister of Ashara I am sure she knows more about her sister than all other characters and Harwin said he knew about Ned and Ashara since he was younger than Arya though he doubted it he also said there was no dishonor in their relationship. But theories also needs to be supported by book canon imo. Though I must admit Jyana is an interesting name as it is tied to Arryn and Lannisters. 

 
What makes you so sure?
Allyria appears to have been a baby, or even unborn, at the time. She remains betrothed, yet unwed after 5 years, to Beric Dondarrion, who is a Lord in his early-mid twenties with Edric Dayne as his squire since before the betrothal. The logical reason for them to remain unwed is her being too young to marry yet. If she was old enough to actually know her sister Ashara before she "died" then she'd be at least 20 years old by now, more like 27+ if she'd been old enough to understand romantic relationships before Ashara died. 
[There is a theory (which I like, but could not put odds on) that Allyria is actually Ashara's love-child (with Brandon IMO) from Harrenhal, raised by her grandparents instead to avoid the stigma of bastardy.]
Allyria thus almost certainly has no knowledge of her sister beyond what she has heard from others, mostly by the sounds of it servants gossip. What Ned Dayne tells Arya, based on Allyria's stories, is internally inconsistent and displays a child's ignorance of the meaning of adult relationships. Ned Stark was in love with Ashara Dayne but fucked the family wetnurse instead? Honourable, never-the-boy-you-were, Ned? No. Ned Dayne's stories are the stories of children (Allyria telling Ned) probably combined from servants gossip more than anything else.
Notice how Edric doesn't even claim Wylla says she was Jon's mother (which most readers come out believing he did), its merely an assumption he implicitly believes.
 
On 12/13/2018 at 6:23 AM, Jova Snow said:

 Harwin said he knew about Ned and Ashara since he was younger than Arya though he doubted it he also said there was no dishonor in their relationship. But theories also needs to be supported by book canon imo. Though I must admit Jyana is an interesting name as it is tied to Arryn and Lannisters. 

 
Harwin said he heard it once (and as you say, doubted it). At Winterfell. Ie, Harwin heard the same gossip that Ned shut down once it got to him via Catelyn. 
And Ned did that because any speculation about Jon's mother is extremely dangerous. Ned never thinks about or reacts to Ashara as Ashara-the-individual. He only ever responds to discussion about Jon's mother, be it assumed Ashara or Wylla.
 
Note also that even in the Reed's story to Bran, there is no evidence that Ned was romantic with Ashara. What we actually see is a super-shy Ned sitting on a bench and missing out on the festivities, while Ashara is dancing with all the hottest and most popular guys. Then Brandon persuades her (apparently Brandon has some sway with this girl) to get Ned off the bench, which Ned couldn't politely avoid.
"On behalf of" does not even require agreement with, much lest request by.
 
On 12/13/2018 at 7:19 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

Cat knows she's pretty but refers to her eyes as "haunting"...memorable.  

Cat never met Ashara. Cat is repeating descriptions she's heard in the gossip among the servants. 
Gossip no doubt inspired more by Ned coming home from Starfall with a mysterious bastard plus Ashara committing suicide far more than by anything that happened at Harrenhal.

On 12/13/2018 at 7:19 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

 Which leads me back to this thread.  If someone had the Targ eye color of purple (in any variation) it would surely be remarked upon.  It's a staple of their appearance.  If Lemore had Targ eyes, we'd know it. 

If Lemore had Targ eyes we'd know immediately who she was. It would be a dead giveaway she was Ashara.
Ye mysteriously, Lemore is just about the only character of any significance whose eyes we don;t know. Whose eyes Tyrion skip describing. Whom Tyrion only described while randily watching her nakedness instead of talking normally.

On 12/13/2018 at 7:19 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

Regarding Elia's health, she may have been delicate but not so much that she couldn't travel.  In early 280 AC she went to KL to marry Rhaegar, then they moved to Dragonstone.  Later that same year, she gave birth to Rhaenys then she was bed-ridden for half a year (bringing to just shy of mid-281 AC, the year of the False Spring) then she went to Harrenhal for the tourney, after that she traveled back to Dragonstone.  Keep in mind the storms that rack that area, traveling to and from there would have been hard on anyone yet she survived it, even as delicate as she was.  Aegon was born shortly thereafter, she was possibly pregnant at the Tourney.  That is a LOT on a body so I think she may have been stronger than she appeared. 

She could travel, when necessary, but Oberyn tells us that her health did restrict her travelling, which is why she was so excited on that trip meeting potential suitors all the way to Casterly Rock.

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"Do you recall the tale I told you of our first meeting, Imp?" Prince Oberyn asked, as the Bastard of Godsgrace knelt before him to fasten his greaves. "It was not for your tail alone that my sister and I came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest of sorts. A quest that took us to Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock . . . but our true destination was marriage. Doran was betrothed to Lady Mellario of Norvos, so he had been left behind as castellan of Sunspear. My sister and I were yet unpromised.
"Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister's suitors.

Elia was delicate, the evidence is overwhelming, directly from those who knew and loved her and have no reason to lie.
Travelling as a noblewoman, when necessary, with all the support and comforts she might need, is not evidence she was strong and independent the way Lemore is. Nor does Lemore's flirtatious and engaging character match anything he are told of Elia.  

Edited by corbon
clarity and spelling

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On 9/12/2018 at 3:01 AM, Megorova said: 

Wouldn't Tyrion recognise princess Elia? Martells are salty Dornishmen, they look like Italians, or Spaniards - honey or caramel colored skin, dark hair (black or brown), and dark eyes. Septa Lemore doesn't look like a Dornishwoman.

Septa Lemore does look like a Dornishwoman, at least in part. She has dark hair and skin that glows gold in the sun.

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Septa Lemore does look like a Dornishwoman, at least in part. She has dark hair and skin that glows gold in the sun.

It is a stretch to claim that Septa Lemore looks like a Dornishwoman.

Her hair is described as "dark brown," which is not exclusively Dornish. The hair of Jeyne Poole (North), Wex Pyke (Iron Islands) and Dryn son of Tormund (Beyond the Wall) is described using those same words. Nor do we know that Elia had brown hair.

That her skin is described as "glowing gold in the morning light" does not mean she is especially dark, and could just be referring to an effect the morning light has on the appearance of her skin at that moment. The alchemist's finger's are similarly described as having a golden glow as a result of the effect of the golden dragon in the morning light. But even if Lemore herself does have golden skin, that is hardly an exclusively Dornish hue.

It is certainly possible that Lemore is Dornish. It can't be ruled out since we have no idea who she actually is. But there is nothing about the description of her appearance from which to determine that she "does look like a Dornishwoman."

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It is a stretch to claim that Septa Lemore looks like a Dornishwoman.

I think its a fair response to the claim that she doesn't look like a Dornishwoman, given the dark hair and golden skin reference.
And that is not even referencing the somewhat 'Dornish' attitude to casual nudity,

I wasn't claiming 'she looks Dornish so must be Lemore', just refuting an opposite claim.

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3 hours ago, corbon said:

I think its a fair response to the claim that she doesn't look like a Dornishwoman, given the dark hair and golden skin reference.
And that is not even referencing the somewhat 'Dornish' attitude to casual nudity,

I wasn't claiming 'she looks Dornish so must be Lemore', just refuting an opposite claim.

I agree that she could easily be Dornish.  

Her attitude to casual nudity may be a glitch, in the GRRM-verse, that affects otherwise-modest women whenever cameras are rolling.  Remember Catelyn prancing starkers before Maester Luwyn for no good reason?

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I somehow always assumed that she is the mother of Tyene.... wasn’t her mother also a septa?

Though in that case she probably dyed her hair because Tyene is blond if I remember correctly

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2 hours ago, OneFretfulTrout said:

I somehow always assumed that she is the mother of Tyene.... wasn’t her mother also a septa?

Though in that case she probably dyed her hair because Tyene is blond if I remember correctly

If we go by Tyene's looks, golden hair, deep blue eyes, which she must have gotten from her mother, then I think that eliminates her mother. Sure Septa Tyene's mom can dye her hair, but she can't disguise her blue eyes or dimples (if she has them). So again, we circle back to the lack of eye color mention with Tyene's mother. 

I did consider her at one point, but I think she's a red herring. 

It's the manner of Elia's death that raises all sorts of red flags for me. Every character who's had their head bashed in becomes unrecognizable. Elia wasn't strangled or stabbed to death. Gregor Clegane went for her head. And if he did to her what he did to Oberyn, then it leaves more than enough room for her to still be alive.

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On 9/11/2018 at 11:36 AM, Davjos said:

In my opinion this theory is possible, more possible than Ashara, yes. But there is one pretty big hole that needs to be explained. Why did Elia let her first born, her daughter, just die. If there is the possibility to arrange for a body double for both her and Aegon, why not one for Rhaenys, who IIRC looked a lot more Dornish than as a Targ (from a SSM I think). She is the easiest to get a body double for, a young Martell looking girl can easily be found in Dorne. And in a matter of life and death I don’t think a mother cares more for an heir than another child. 

What sinks this boat for me is the risk. Varlyrio couldn’t have known if Elia would freak out from acute grief and ruin their plans, so would they really look to involve her? Also not likely that she’d leave Rhaenys behind and flee. Elia is dornish and they aren’t as sexist as the rest so her saving Aegon over Rhaenys due to succession rings hollow. 

Also consider the weird, effed up relationship between ”mother” and son who lives together 24/7 but pretends not to be related, and so successfully that it fools suspicious old Griff for years? Nah.

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On 5/5/2019 at 5:25 AM, OneFretfulTrout said:

I somehow always assumed that she is the mother of Tyene.... wasn’t her mother also a septa?

Though in that case she probably dyed her hair because Tyene is blond if I remember correctly

Really, the only thing that suggests Tyene's mother is the septa thing. And its likely that Lemore isn't actually a Septa anyway, just played that role. JonCon twice calls her "Lady" in his head and/or an unguarded moment, and she argues with him at a level that clearly shows her to be a co-conspirator of equal or greater importance to him, not just a hired underling.

Tyene's mother makes little sense from a political perspective. At either end. She has no real value from the conspirator's side, and there is no indication at all that Dorne knows about Aegon already, which there surely would be if Tyene's mother was involved politically.

Lemore also doesn't fit physically with Tyene's blue eyed blonde look and dark eyed dark haired father.

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14 hours ago, Sigella said:

What sinks this boat for me is the risk. Varlyrio couldn’t have known if Elia would freak out from acute grief and ruin their plans, so would they really look to involve her? Also not likely that she’d leave Rhaenys behind and flee. Elia is dornish and they aren’t as sexist as the rest so her saving Aegon over Rhaenys due to succession rings hollow. 

This has nothing to do with Elia being Dornish or sexism on her part. Elia would simply have had to make an impossible choice. This makes her no different than Helaena Targaryen who had to choose the life of one son over the other. This is the heart in conflict with itself.

We are told a couple of times that Rhaenys was recognizable, so switching her with another girl with similar hair and coloring may not even have been an option. Rhaenys's only salvation and chance at survival may have been her value as a hostage for Dorne's good behavior. 

Here's the bottom line for me. Rhaenys was not with her mother and brother in the nursery where they allegedly died. Instead she was in her father's chambers, hiding under his bed when Amory Lorch found her.

Rhaenys was dressed in her nightgown when she was murdered, which would indicate that she might have been asleep where royal children usually sleep, in the nursery, when Aerys had the gates opened to Tywin and his men began sacking the city. After that it became a matter of time before he reached the Red Keep.

So Rhaenys, 2 year old girl, decides that she will leave her mother's side and climb the stairs to her father's chambers and hide there. Her mother doesn't try to stop her, apparently there are no ladies with Elia or guards. There is no septa either. She is alone with her baby when Gregor Clegane comes for her. 

Doesn't that strike you as odd? 

I think Rhaenys left the nursery because the woman who was there with the baby was not her mother, so she might have gone looking for her. Once Tywin's men start sacking the city, time becomes of the essence, so the baby switch has to happen before Maegor's Holdfast drawbridge is raised. 

Elia choosing to remain in the nursery and make her last stand there makes no sense. We don't know all that much about Elia, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't stupid. Once she knows that King's Landing is being sacked by Tywin's men, she should recognize that he has aligned himself to Robert Baratheon. It boggles the mind that she would have just remained passively in the nursery with her son, while her daughter took off. She tried to leave the city with her children once, why wouldn't she try again? If Varys went to her and told her he had plans, then I can't see her refusing to save at least one of her children.

I think she left Maegor's Holdfast with her infant son in her arms, dressed as a septa, met with Varys, went into the tunnels and waited out the storm there, left King's Landing when it was safe to do so.

14 hours ago, Sigella said:

Also consider the weird, effed up relationship between ”mother” and son who lives together 24/7 but pretends not to be related, and so successfully that it fools suspicious old Griff for years? Nah.

Why would they pretend not to be related? We are not privy to Aegon/Lemore's relationship. She had a cabin all to herself on the Shy Maid. And she does spend time with him one-on-one whenever they are at lessons. We just don't know what sort of conversations they have because we have no eyes on them when they are completely alone. 

And Griff would obviously know who Lemore really is. For him to be involved in this and buying into the Aegon story, Lemore has to have been someone from his past and who can vouch for what Varys said. And the only one who would have been there from the very start is Elia. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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6 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And Griff would obviously know who Lemore really is. For him to be involved in this and buying into the Aegon story, Lemore has to have been someone from his past and who can vouch for what Varys said. And the only one who would have been there from the very start is Elia. 

Ashara also fits that bill. 
She wouldn't have been there during the sack, but she could have been brought in almost immediately, as Varys organised Aegon/Pisswaterbrat to Essos via Starfall.
As Elia's former handmaid, and Arthur's sister, JonCon would know her and likely trust and accept her.

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Ashara also fits that bill. 
She wouldn't have been there during the sack, but she could have been brought in almost immediately, as Varys organised Aegon/Pisswaterbrat to Essos via Starfall.
As Elia's former handmaid, and Arthur's sister, JonCon would know her and likely trust and accept her.

I think that's the point. Someone who was there from the very beginning v. someone who was given the baby like a month or two months later. But you and I have gone several rounds over this, so we can argue each other into the ground, which let's face it, is pretty exhausting, it won't change yours or my position on this and the whole eye color business.

But let me ask you this question. If this is Ashara, would she have told Jon Connington that Aegon has a brother who was being raised at Winterfell as Ned Stark's bastard? I think Elia would have known of Lyanna's pregnancy because I don't think it's something that Rhaegar would have kept it from her. And I think she would know that Lyanna died, so if she is Lemore, she might have given up the baby for lost as well, but I think she would have let Jon Connington know. But Ashara's knowledge would extend a lot further than Elia's, especially with the rumors that Cersei and Catelyn heard about her being Jon's mother.

How much do you think Jon Connington knows?

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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16 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But let me ask you this question. If this is Ashara, would she have told Jon Connington that Aegon has a brother who was being raised at Winterfell as Ned Stark's bastard?

I wouldn't think so.

16 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Elia would have known of Lyanna's pregnancy because I don't think it's something that Rhaegar would have kept it from her.

I agree, but its not a sure thing. 
I don't think Ashara was likely around Elia by then anyway.

16 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And I think she would know that Lyanna died, so if she is Lemore, she might have given up the baby for lost as well, but I think she would have let Jon Connington know.

Elia, or Ashara? Elia no, she wouldn't know that - she died before Lyanna did.
Ashara, probably, again, not a sure thing. I don;t think she'd be telling JonCon though. Its none of his business. Aegon is his business, and JonCon only got brought in a couple off years or so later.

16 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But Ashara's knowledge would extend a lot further than Elia's, especially with the rumors that Cersei and Catelyn heard about her being Jon's mother.

I don't think those rumours are at all relevant to what Ashara would know about Lyanna and Jon Snow. 
I think what Ashara knows is only relevant as to whether she was involved as Arthur's sister, in supporting Rhaegar's "crew" before ToJ (eg did she help find Wylla and send her to them, etc etc), and then what Ned told her (if anything).
I don't see Ned telling her anything unless she already knew stuff and told him first (eg if she recognised Wylla and asked him if Jon was Lyanna's child, I don't think he'd deny it, and that could start a more involved conversation). And I simply can't tell if that's the case or not.

16 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

How much do you think Jon Connington knows?

About Jon Snow? Nothing at all. No reason anyone would tell him.
About fAegon? I think he knows the Pisswater prince story and believes it and I suspect Lemore was the convincing factor in that belief.

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If Jon Connington knows that Septa Lemore is Elia Martell, why on earth does he not convey this information to Doran when he writes needing Martell military support?

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On 2/18/2020 at 11:08 AM, corbon said:

Elia, or Ashara? Elia no, she wouldn't know that - she died before Lyanna did.

D-uh me! Sorry, your premises is that Lemore is Elia so Elia didn't die.
In that case, then yes, I suspect Elia-Lemore knows little more than anyone else about Lyanna/Jon. Lyanna died, so that baby in her head is probably lost, maybe was never born. very much a lesser concern to her own Aegon though, anyway.

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1 hour ago, Lord Browndodd said:

If Jon Connington knows that Septa Lemore is Elia Martell, why on earth does he not convey this information to Doran when he writes needing Martell military support?

He did not write the letter, Haldon Halfmaester did. 

I suspect the big reveal of Lemore's identity is going to come in Arianne's POV, else we would already know who she is.

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I find it inexplicable that Elia would not have returned to Sunspear, or at least let Oberyn and Doran know of her survival. Oberyn and Doran demonstrate no hint of knowledge of Elia's survival.

As for Ashara, off the top of my head, I can't recall anything else that leads me to disqualify her except the lack of mention of purple eyes. But I don't find any of the arguments for omitting this to be convincing. 

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I find it inexplicable that Elia would not have returned to Sunspear, or at least let Oberyn and Doran know of her survival. Oberyn and Doran demonstrate no hint of knowledge of Elia's survival.

She can't return to Sunspear. If she returns to Dorne, questions will be asked since she is believed to have been killed in King's Landing along with her son. No one ever describes the state of Elia's body. We know she was raped and if Gregor Clegane is to be believed, he killed her by bashing her face in, which I think would make her unrecognizable. 

And she doesn't tell Oberyn and Doran anything for the same reason Ned doesn't tell Catelyn anything about Jon's true parentage. Some secrets are just too dangerous to share, even with the people you love and trust.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

 As for Ashara, off the top of my head, I can't recall anything else that leads me to disqualify her except the lack of mention of purple eyes. But I don't find any of the arguments for omitting this to be convincing. 

I think the purple eyes not being mentioned is a pretty big deal. Tyrion mentions Sweets purple eyes, but not Lemore's? He goes on at length about Jon Connington and Aegon's eye colors and the distinction between the two. He tells us that Haldon has grey cool eyes and he mentions Yezzan's yellow eyes, but the eye color of the handsome woman who might have purple eyes if she is Ashara somehow flies under the radar? 

And please, no one tell me that Tyrion was busy staring at her naked boobs. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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