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Elia Martell: Yes, another Septa Lemore speculation

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56 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Gregor most likely killed the real Aegon (only way of making sense of Illyrio). So he most likely killed the real Elia too. Besides, if GRRM plotted doubts about a positive identification of Aegon, there was none for Elia. Lemore is probably not Ashara. Certainly not Elia.

Who, if anyone, do you think she is?

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3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Who, if anyone, do you think she is?

I've really no idea. I'm not sure she is someone we know by another name. Even if I admit it would be "stunning" if she was.

Just that Elia, Ashara, Mellario or Tyene's mother are not striking any credibility for me.

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4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I've really no idea. I'm not sure she is someone we know by another name. Even if I admit it would be "stunning" if she was.

Just that Elia, Ashara, Mellario or Tyene's mother are not striking any credibility for me.

I'm in the Mellario camp.  Maybe the sole occupant.  

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Just now, Mister Smikes said:

I'm in the Mellario camp.  Maybe the sole occupant.  

I'm sure not. I believe it's a relatively common theory. Maybe as much as Ashara's.

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2 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I'm sure not. I believe it's a relatively common theory. Maybe as much as Ashara's.

I'm sure.  But I haven't seen many advocates lately.

More specifically, I believe Lemore is (1) Mellario; (2) Young Griff's mother; (3) Illyrio & Serra's daughter;  and hence (4) a Blackfyre.

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My thought is that Ashara is Lemore, but she and Elia are tied goes way back. To like Aegon and his sisters. I think that Rhaenys stayed in Dorne and gave birth to another girl or boy Targaryen. They hid themselves and spread through Dorne. Not much is known about the Daynes and Starfall.  Only that Arthur was the greatest living swordsman that Jaime recalls after the Smiling Knight. Ashara may have been pregnant with Ned's true son or daughter and given birth to a child who displayed the Targaryen traits. Jon Connington would know about all that. She probably faked her death, and she had her brother's sword- Dawn.

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On 8/29/2021 at 3:13 PM, Egged said:

Why must the septa specifically be any more important than the rest of the crew?

She might not be, but Tyrion at least suspected her importance. we know she is a mother, but we are not certain of fAegon's own. We know she is disguising herself, and that may or may not be because she is a septa. We know she has not exited the story yet, like the owners of the shy maid. It's something that borders on mystery, and it has been 10 years since the last asoiaf book was released. 

we should also not forget that the "rest of the crew" includes a King, his Hand, a Kingsguard, A royal tutor/Maester, and our lovable dwarf friend/heir to the rock.

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You know, if Ashara and Ned got married before a tree and Jon were the product, then all the Stark children are not legitimate, or secondary, depending on whether or not she is still alive, and your POV.

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A case could be made for Ashara Dayne surviving to become the woman known as Lemore.  She was disgraced and dishonored. The suicide is sort of true. It’s social suicide, leaving her old life behind and starting anew. She crosses to Essos and meets with Varys. She is handed a baby, a changeling, to raise into a new Aegon.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I'm not sure why she needs to be anyone more than 'Septa Lemore'. Why aren't people as obsessed with Haldon or Duck? 

I don't know if anybody NEEDS to be anything.  It is up to GRRM.  The rest of us are guessing, and who knows if TWOW will ever be released so that we may know if we guessed correctly.

For instance, you could have answered my question by guessing that Lemore was only Lemore, and there would be no future revelations about her identity.   But you were not quite that brave did not quite do that.  Instead, you framed it as a question.   To which my answer is:  Sure, that is possible.  All kinds of thigs are possible.  But that is not my guess.  My guess is that Lemore is Lady Melario.

Anyhow, going by the text, Septa Lemore is not just Septa Lemore.  She is also a Lady (what House?), a merchant's daughter, and a mother.  Tyrion senses a mystery about her, though he professes not to be interested.  Her connection to Young Griff is unexplained, and may well go back to the beginning.  She has a deep interest in Young Griff.  And those stretch mark's on her belly suggest the possibility that Young Griff's identity and Lemore's identity may be connected.

As for Haldon and Duck, I see no reason why any fan need be equally obsessed with all questions, however legitimate those questions may be.

In Duck's case, we pretty much know his history, and there is no particular mystery about any of it.  His connection to Young Griff is fully explained.  If any mysteries remain, we have no hints of them.  He is less of a mystery than Griff, who brought him onboard.  And Griff's secret identify has already been explained.

Haldon is a bit more of a mystery.  If you find him fascinating, feel free to write a thread about him.  The thought occurs to me that he might be a woman, since his face is clean shaven, and his hair is worn in a bun, suggesting is would usually be long.  This would provide an alternate explanation for his failure to become a maester, in spite of his erudition.  But who knows?  Maybe Haldon Halfmaester is only Haldon Halfmaester.  I don't recall Tyrion ever sensing he had secrets, the way he senses secrets in Lemore.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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24 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

And those stretch mark's on her belly suggest the possibility that Young Griff's identity and Lemore's identity may be connected.

They suggest that she's carried a child or seen some fluctuations in her weight.

 

36 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

 But you were not quite that brave did not quite do that.

She's a Manderley who decided to give up the eel pies when she joined the sept

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1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

She's a Manderley who decided to give up the eel pies when she joined the sept

I like it!  But it's wrong.  The Manderleys are like the inhabitants of Innsmouth.  The older they get, the more they turn into squishers.  They give up eel pies only when they start eating man pies.  Which Wyman is already doing.

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On 9/1/2021 at 4:31 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I'm not sure why she needs to be anyone more than 'Septa Lemore'. Why aren't people as obsessed with Haldon or Duck? 

Because they paid attention to the text.

GRRM hits us twice with her having secrets, once early, and dismissed, once late, and then immediately lost as this is Tyrion's last scene with her.

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Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.

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 Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, thoughWho is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Furthermore...
She is clearly "more" than a teacher for Young Griff. 
 

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Young Griff gave his father a stubborn look. "Lemore knows where her cabin is. I want to stay."
"We are sworn to protect you," Lemore said softly.
"I don't need to be protected. I can use a sword as well as Duck. I'm half a knight."

She is sworn to protect him - ie she is a true conspirator, not just a hireling for the teaching. Even though she is a noncombatant, she is sworn to protect him. While I'm sure the same is true for Haldon and Duck, who are combatants, its not clear the same is true for Ysilla, for example. Yandry maybe, maybe not. But thats only the start of it...

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Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

 She is someone who needs to hide - so not just a nobody/anybody, but a somebody.
Further...

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"Safer, yes. Wiser, no. He is a man grown now, and this is the road that he was born to walk." Griff had no patience for this quibbling. He was sick of hiding, sick of waiting, sick of caution. I do not have time enough for caution.
"We have gone to great lengths to keep Prince Aegon hidden all these years," Lemore reminded him. "The time will come for him to wash his hair and declare himself, I know, but that time is not now. Not to a camp of sellswords."
"If Harry Strickland means him ill, hiding him on the Shy Maid will not protect him. Strickland has ten thousand swords at his command. We have Duck. Aegon is all that could be wanted in a prince. They need to see that, Strickland and the rest. These are his own men."
"His because they're bought and paid for. Ten thousand armed strangers, plus hangers-on and camp followers. All it takes is one to bring us all to ruin. If Hugor's head was worth a lord's honors, how much will Cersei Lannister pay for the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? You do not know these men, my lord. It has been a dozen years since you last rode with the Golden Company, and your old friend is dead."
Blackheart. Myles Toyne had been so full of life the last time Griff had left him, it was hard to accept that he was gone. A golden skull atop a pole, and Homeless Harry Strickland in his place. Lemore was not wrong, he knew. Whatever their sires or their grandsires might have been back in Westeros before their exile, the men of the Golden Company were sellswords now, and no sellsword could be trusted. Even so …

She has been involved for many years, possibly from before Griff's time even.
She is important enough, senior enough within the conspiracy to counsel Griff on major policy issues and even argue with him. Thats not the role of a hired hand septa/teacher.

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"The plan was to reveal Prince Aegon only when we reached Queen Daenerys," Lemore was saying.
"That was when we believed the girl was coming west. Our dragon queen has burned that plan to ash, and thanks to that fat fool in Pentos, we have grasped the she-dragon by the tail and burned our fingers to the bone."
"Illyrio could not have been expected to know that the girl would choose to remain at Slaver's Bay."
"No more than he knew that the Beggar King would die young, or that Khal Drogo would follow him into the grave. Very little of what the fat man has anticipated has come to pass." Griff slapped the hilt of his longsword with a gloved hand. "I have danced to the fat man's pipes for years, Lemore. What has it availed us? The prince is a man grown. His time is—"

Again, she's in on plans and ready to argue back against Griff. Its clear she's actually a pretty senior conspirator, possibly even more senior than Griff, for all that he is in local command currently. We certainly know that Griff was 'brought in' to the conspiracy only after a number of years after his exile during Robert's Rebellion.

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"As you say," she answered, unhappily.
So be it. He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that. No amount of prayer would put him on the Iron Throne, however. That was Griff's task. He had failed Prince Rhaegar once. He would not fail his son, not whilst life remained in his body.

It is clear here that Griff is in local command though. Maybe he is more senior than her within the conspiracy. That is still possible too. Or maybe that is just either or both of a separation of roles and/or his own arrogance and base status as a Lord. We can't tell.

Finally, we have Griff calling her Lady. Not something he'd do is she was just a random hireling/educator/septa. And not just in public, but inside his own head too. And even when she s back dressed as a Septa.

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When they were gone, Griff turned to the Halfmaester. "Ride back to the Shy Maid and return with Lady Lemore and Ser Rolly. We'll need Illyrio's chests as well. All the coin, and the armor. Give Yandry and Ysilla our thanks. Their part in this is done. They will not be forgotten when His Grace comes into his kingdom."

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When the food and wine had been brought up, he barred the door, emptied the jug into a bowl, and soaked his hand in it. Vinegar soaks and vinegar baths were the treatment Lady Lemore had prescribed for the dwarf, when she feared he might have greyscale, but asking for a jug of vinegar each morning would give the game away. 

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The prince arrived to join them four days later, riding at the head of a column of a hundred horse, with three elephants lumbering in his rear. Lady Lemore was with him, garbed once more in the white robes of a septa. Before them went Ser Rolly Duckfield, a snow-white cloak streaming from his shoulders.

So to summarise:
Duck has a simple, clear backstory and no hints of more. In fact Tyrion thinks explicitly he's even less than he appears.
Haldon slightly less info but still no hints in any way of being more than he appears. 
Neither appears to have a massive significance going forward, or show anything that might provide a significant missing element in the story.  

Lemore however has no background information or direct hints at all, but at the same time is clearly hinted at being more than she appears, rather than less in multiple ways and times.

Thus the interest in her. It comes from reading what is written and paying attention to the clues GRRM has scattered through the text.

 

Then on top of that, you have the complete absence of any connection between 1yr old baby Aegon, supposedly switched, and the 4-5 yr old kid that became Young Griff when Griff was brought into the conspiracy. If the kid really is Aegon (and its clear that conspirators with him believe it, and believe they can convince others in Westeros of it) there has to be a connection and story there, some continuity, some connection through the time gap. Not just so the conspirators believe it, but one that they can use to convince Westerosi doubters.
With all the information above, Lemore is far and away the most likely source for that that we have.
 

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6 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Who you got her down for? 

No certainty of course, but fairly strongly IMO likely to be Ashara.
Every single thing we know about her (one things doesn't, but thats somethng we don't know about her, see below) fits perfectly with what we would expect of Ashara, who may well have been tagged by Illyrio right from the start (during the aftermath of the Sack) to take Aegon into exile. Thus she fakes her death and swims/boats to a waiting ship with the baby Aegon a month or two after the Sack, around the same time as Ned is there/leaves. This works whether fAegon is really Aegon or the Pisswater Prince - who was specifically chosen for his resemblance, and she'd probably not seen baby Aegon for at least half his life, having had to leave court in disgrace (and secretly have her own baby - probably the disgrace!).
The lack of purple eyes is the only potential flaw, but IMO (many others differ often vociferously) not only has GRRM conspicuously avoided giving us her eye colour, its also a whole different ball game between a 18-20ish noblewoman at court making the most of her assets and a 40ish woman living a much poorer life as a septa and deliberately avoiding attention.

Ashara 
Attractive to men
Aged would be close to 40
Westerosi noblewoman
Close friends and associate with Aegon's father and especially mother
Would have the education and training to pose as a Septa (see Sansa's training)
Probably had and lost a child of a similar age to Aegon
Was brought up on an island so probably swam more than most Westerosi
Supposedly suicided off a tower into the sea but no witnesses and no body found.
Would provide strong evidence suitable to convince many Westerosi of the truth of Aegon's background purely by her own identity, background and connections
Would exactly fit the bill in terms of the interplay and relationship between Lemore and Griff.
Would provide an interesting setup with Barristan should they meet (treason for love maybe?, or not)
Gives us (and GRRM a vehicle for) potential insight into the missing critical elements of what happened around the end of Robert's rebellion and with Ned coming from ToJ.

Might not be her. 
But none of the other possibilities make any sense, despite what people try to argue for their favourites. 

Against that you have...
"But purple eyes!"

You are free to make your own mind up. I'm not really interested in arguing more, been down that road many times and now the forum is dominated by odd theorists (IMO of course), but I do try to provide clear info when asked (actually only dropped in today to look up an old friend, I hardly visit these days).




 

Edited by corbon

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11 hours ago, corbon said:

Against that you have...
"But purple eyes!"

Thanks for the answer. This is an issue that's been bugging me for a while and every single post I see here which takes for granted that Lemore is AD really gets under my skin because to me it's as bizarre as Benjen is Daario or any of the other crackpot secret identities that you see theorized here.

I don't get much of a sense of Ashara Dayne from what we're given of her in the books and there's probably good reason for her to be concealed a bit.  She still had family though, didn't she?  Her brother was dead, but she didn't lose anyone else, did she? Faking a suicide and ditching out on her family seems like a drastic and cold act. What could compel her to do that? Saving the Targaryen dynasty? Revenge? I'd believe revenge first, I guess or some matter that fell completely within the realm of 'family business'. Still seems like big move to fake her own death.

Hm... I just checked the wiki page and there's no parents listed for her so it's possible I guess that they had predeceased her which would soften my position a bit, but she still had a brother and a sister out there that she would have been abandoning in the worst sort of way.

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12 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Thanks for the answer. This is an issue that's been bugging me for a while and every single post I see here which takes for granted that Lemore is AD really gets under my skin because to me it's as bizarre as Benjen is Daario or any of the other crackpot secret identities that you see theorized here.

I don't get much of a sense of Ashara Dayne from what we're given of her in the books and there's probably good reason for her to be concealed a bit.  She still had family though, didn't she? 

Yes. But she'd already 'left home' - moved to court, away from her family. Its not like she's a child, still tied to her momma's apron strings. She has a family, but she also has her own life to live, which she has known all her life would mean leaving them, probably eventually to marry and be part of another family far apart. In fact, she's actually already progressed on that journey, in leaving Starfall and living at Court in a court position as Elia's Lady-in-Waiting.

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Her brother was dead, but she didn't lose anyone else, did she? Faking a suicide and ditching out on her family seems like a drastic and cold act.

I don't think so at all. It seems to me you are thinking as a modern person close to their own family, not as a Westerosi noble with the understanding and acceptance that their life's path is very likely to take them away far from their families almost as a matter of course. 

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What could compel her to do that? Saving the Targaryen dynasty? Revenge? I'd believe revenge first, I guess or some matter that fell completely within the realm of 'family business'. Still seems like big move to fake her own death.

Remember her position? Her brother's position? Duty, honour, love? She was Elia's closest companion. Her brother was Rhaegar's closest friend, companion, protector and maybe confidant. She had not only the bonds of loyalty due the royal family, but also the close bonds of personal relationship, possibly friendship and even that kind of love.
You think thats not a big deal when the life of their last child is at stake? Their legacy, their line, their heritage? In a culture where heritage and line is so important.?
You think Arthur wouldn't have taken on such a task, made such a sacrifice? But Ashara can't? Its acceptable for him to leave his family forever and give his life for his prince, but cruel and cold for her to do so?
And that doesn't take into account any possibility (I don't think its likely, but its possible) that she was in on and a believer in whatever Rhaegar thought about prophecy etc and literally saving the world.   

Further consider Ashara's current (at that time) position and life prospects. 
She's now unmarried, disgraced from court, and that disgrace is probably due to a pregnancy (all very well in Dorne - though I bet that extends less to young noblewomen than to men, biology being what it is - but not at all acceptable to the rest of Westeros). Her family are not in political favour. What are her life prospects. Sit around Starfall as a dependent drone the rest of her life? Marry some merchant so her family can enrich themselves?
If she loved Ned Stark (I don't think the evidence for that is anywhere near as strong as it appeared early on) he's now married and lost to her too. Or Brandon Stark - dead.

But perhaps a life task with some meaning, a task that entails some sacrifice (what of value does not?), but encompasses, love, friendship, honour and duty all together.

Against that you put up... well, she still had parents, a much much younger sister and much older adult brother whom she'd expected her whole life to leave, and in fact already had?
Put it in cultural context...
Heck, put in any context.

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Hm... I just checked the wiki page and there's no parents listed for her so it's possible I guess that they had predeceased her which would soften my position a bit, but she still had a brother and a sister out there

I doubt it, though we don't know. Her father may have been dead already, and her eldest brother the Lord, but there is no indication of that. Her mother certainly, and father probably, were still around as Allyria, her supposed sister, is almost certainly very young and possibly not even born yet

There is a thought (I'm a subscriber to possibility based on 'literary neatness' and similarity to historical practices, but there is no evidence for or against really and she's probably even younger than that) that her 'sister' Allyria is in fact her 'not-stillborn-after-all' daughter. That would provide a much better life for baby Allyria - legitimate daughter of a great noble house with many possibilities for her future vs bastard daughter of a disgraced, unmarried woman with a much more limited future. Yes, its Dorne, where such things are less important than elsewhere is Westeros, but the Daynes are a First Men House, Stoney rather than Sandy Dornish and culturally closer to the rest of westeros than the sandy Dornish. So that might be a factor.
So too might Ashara leaving.

The (very limited) data we have on Allyria points to her likely being the appropriate age for that, or younger. This is based on Allyria a) having a long term betrothal to Beric Dondarrion and b) hanging out and gossiping with young Edric Dayne. 
Dondarrion is mid twenties, a full Lord, and no reason at his end not to marry and start fathering heirs. Yet he's been betrothed to Allyria for 5 years. Why so long? 
If Allyria was old enough to even remember her Aunt Ashara, she'd be close to twenty already. If she was old enough to be close to Ashara, she'd be late twenties at least, more like mid 30s. Is that likely? There is no hint from Edric of an issue between the families, or between Beric and Allyria. The most likely reason for a long betrothal is waiting for the bride to be grow into a more suitable age.
Its very likely that Allyria is much younger,  maybe within 5 years or less of Edric (thus betrothed at age 12ish, with the marriage waiting for her to get a bit older and then chaos over the last year or so. That would also account for their apparent relative closeness - her being a bit older than him but having no other kids her age around. 

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that she would have been abandoning in the worst sort of way.

Really? The worst sort of way? Thats a ruling family, still in their seat of power and wealth, losing an adult 'child' that had already left them once, for court.   
And that assumes that some of them weren't in on it anyway. Not the kids, likely, but maybe her parents and/or maybe her elder brother.
I think 'abandoning' them would be much worse if they were dependent on her in some way, rather than the other way around. And if she was clearly close and interdependent.

I really don't think you are placing yourself in that culture, with the appropriate context and social and political relationships and thought process with your argument. It sounds very personal, and modern.

I apologize if that sounds condescending or like a put down. I don't intend it as such, its just difficult to point out the flaws in the argument in a more politic way. One reason I don't bother here as much as I just don't have the patience thats sometimes required.

Edited by corbon

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