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Alexis-something-Rose

Elia Martell: Yes, another Septa Lemore speculation

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On 9/10/2018 at 4:53 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

To sum up;

If Young Griff is truly Aegon Targaryen, then Septa Lemore may very well be Elia Martell. She escaped King's Landing with her baby with Varys's assistance. Both would have been replaced by other people. In Elia's case, possibly a Dornish handmaid. It's always interesting to see the lengths to which people are willing to go for their lords and ladies.

Elia we are told died the same way as the infant boy believed to be Aegon and her brother, Oberyn. All three had their brains smashed in. We are told the baby was not recognizable, we know that Oberyn's head was reduced to bloody ruin (which may have made it difficult to identify him had he not died so publicly). It may have been the same thing with Elia in the nursery. She may have been difficult to identify after Gregor Clegane was through with her.

In the meantime, Varys helps Elia escape with her son. As a mother, she would have been faced with the very difficult and heartbreaking choice of leaving her daughter behind to an uncertain or a very certain faith. She would have sacrificed one child to save the other. And Aegon is the one who won out because of who he is, Rhaegar's heir and in line for the Iron Throne.

They sail away to Essos and remain in Pentos for five years until Jon Connington enters the story and then it's on to the Shy Maid.

Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa? (Tyrion VI, ADWD 22)

I'd say that if Septa Lemore is Elia Martell, then most of these questions can be answered and there is a lot at stake for her.

 

Yes, I think this is entirely plausible.  Being dead is important else others come looking for you.  Also agree, that Aegon is the real deal.

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Good effort finding connections for a Lemore = Elia theory. I think this is a lot more promising than some theories proposing Lemore = Ashara. Yet, I ultimately lean toward Elia and Aegon being dead. Maybe the Mountain is lying when he confesses in front of the KL court that he murdered Elia and her children during Tyrion's TBC but I find that unlikely. It also undermines the Dornish plot lines in a big way. It would at least diminish Doran's grievances against the Lannisters. Maybe Elia disappeared and has lived secretly without Doran's knowledge, again I find it unlikely. Certainly not impossible though.

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On 2/19/2020 at 9:28 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And please, no one tell me that Tyrion was busy staring at her naked boobs.

Tyrion does pay a lot of attention to Septa Lemore's breasts. But, yes, I don't think that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne, because Tyrion notes a lot of people's eye colors and would probably note Lemore's as well.

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On 3/17/2021 at 8:54 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Tyrion does pay a lot of attention to Septa Lemore's breasts. But, yes, I don't think that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne, because Tyrion notes a lot of people's eye colors and would probably note Lemore's as well.

Except... he simply doesn't. 
At all.
Call it GRRM cheating if you will, but its a simple fact. Tyrion never describes Lemore's eyes, never looks at them while we are in his head, and explicitly thinks that he has no interest in her secrets, only her body.

And take away artifice (makeup, accessories etc), most "purple" eyes simply don't look purple. Its easy enough to find pictures of Elizabeth Taylor, the most famously purple eyed woman of our world, with eyes that don't look the faintest bit purple. In pics they do, she is invariably wearing makeup, hats or accessories that bring out the purple.
And this is true in GRRM's writing as well. Thats why YG's hair is dyed blue, to help disguise his eyes and make them less noticeably purple. Which mostly works, except in certain light.

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3 hours ago, corbon said:

And this is true in GRRM's writing as well. Thats why YG's hair is dyed blue, to help disguise his eyes and make them less noticeably purple. Which mostly works, except in certain light.

Let's say this is Ashara. What is she wearing that makes her eyes look different? Her hair is not dyed since Ashara per Barristan had dark hair.

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30 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Let's say this is Ashara. What is she wearing that makes her eyes look different? Her hair is not dyed since Ashara per Barristan had dark hair.

Wrong way round.
She's not wearing anything to make the purple come out, so her 'purple' eyes are not as apparent. Thats how it actually works most of the time. 
Its highly likely that young Ashara wore makeup or accessories that  made the purple come out. Just as Elizabeth Taylor often did.

YG has blue hair to emphasise the blue and make it seem to overpower the purple shades. His purple is probably stronger than hers and he needs that extra help to counter-emphasise it. Which still doesn't work in some lights.

Tyrion however, has no interest in Lemore's secrets (or eyes). So he just sees 'normal' and unremarkable. At least, thats what GRRM has written.

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There are really no clues that Elia might be alive.  Nobody claimed her face was dashed to an unrecognizable pulp.  There is no suggestion her body fell into the sea and was never recovered.  The best you can say for this theory is that Elia is not quite as definitely dead as her daughter Rhaenys.

All signs point to Septa Lemore = Mellario of Norvos, Blackfyre descendant, and mother of Young Griff.  

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On 3/17/2021 at 5:11 PM, corbon said:

Wrong way round.
She's not wearing anything to make the purple come out, so her 'purple' eyes are not as apparent. Thats how it actually works most of the time. 
Its highly likely that young Ashara wore makeup or accessories that  made the purple come out. Just as Elizabeth Taylor often did.

YG has blue hair to emphasise the blue and make it seem to overpower the purple shades. His purple is probably stronger than hers and he needs that extra help to counter-emphasise it. Which still doesn't work in some lights.

Tyrion however, has no interest in Lemore's secrets (or eyes). So he just sees 'normal' and unremarkable. At least, thats what GRRM has written.

I'm not saying I think it's totally implausible that Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore, but the main reason I'm skeptical is that nothing in the text suggests it besides Lemore being mysterious and Ashara's supposed manner of death allowing for a fakeout. Ashara Dayne is very interesting, but she is way more prominent on online message boards than in the text itself. She comes up about a half dozen times in five books, and we get very little insight into who she was as a person.

If someone read the books without having ever looked at any fan forums or theories, I thinks it's very unlikely they'd think that Lemore is Ashara as is. The "purple eyes would be obvious so Martin made him not notice" doesn't seem likely to me given how Martin writes other mysteries and secret identities. For example, Alleras is literally Sarella spelled backwards and has a bunch of other obvious giveaways. Describing Lemore as having purple eyes might be an obvious clue to a small number of people like us who obsessively follow message boards and fan theories, but that's not really how George writes. He doesn't approach it from the meta POV of trying to deceive his most obsessed readers and throw off fan theorists. And I don't even think that would be conclusive proof by any means; there would still be theories that she was YG's real mother and/or a Blackfyre descendant (and/or perhaps a Brightflame descendant) or some other hidden Targ/Valyrian. 

Again, I'm not saying this theory is totally impossible. It's probably as good a guess as any for Lemore, but that's mostly because we don't really know much about her. There's not really any more to support the theory than any other theory Ashara gets slotted into as a mystery box solver, and I'm not sold that Martin couldn't describe Lemore's eye color because it would be too obvious of a hint in his mind.

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17 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

There are really no clues that Elia might be alive.  Nobody claimed her face was dashed to an unrecognizable pulp.  There is no suggestion her body fell into the sea and was never recovered.  The best you can say for this theory is that Elia is not quite as definitely dead as her daughter Rhaenys.

All signs point to Septa Lemore = Mellario of Norvos, Blackfyre descendant, and mother of Young Griff.  

How is that supposed to work? Arianne was born in 276, Quentyn was born in 281, Trystane was born in 287, and it's said Mellario left Dorne when Trystane was young. When is she supposed to have had Young Griff? Is Doran the father? If not, who is? What evidence is there to suggest any of this?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

How is that supposed to work? Arianne was born in 276, Quentyn was born in 281, Trystane was born in 287, and it's said Mellario left Dorne when Trystane was young.  When is she supposed to have had Young Griff?

His name was not "Young Griff" when he was born, you know.   And his name was not "Aegon" when he was born either.  

Quote

Is Doran the father?

Of course.  (r)Aegon and (f)Aegon are first cousins, and they both have Martell heritage.  One got sent to be fostered with the Yronwoods, the other got sent to Norvos to stay with his Blackfyre mother Mellario.  Doran swapped his nephew with his Blackfyre son, and now plots to put his Blackfyre son on the Iron Throne with the aid of his Blackfyre wife and his allies in the Blackfyre aligned Golden Company.

Quote

What evidence is there to suggest any of this?

You probably know it all already ... you just need to connect the dots.  

(I previously posted a list of "dots" in the "What was the point of Quentyn?" thread).

Edited by Mister Smikes

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3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Of course.  (r)Aegon and (f)Aegon are first cousins, and they both have Martell heritage.  One got sent to be fostered with the Yronwoods, the other got sent to Norvos to stay with his Blackfyre mother Mellario.  Doran swapped his nephew with his Blackfyre son, and now plots to put his Blackfyre son on the Iron Throne with the aid of his Blackfyre wife and his allies in the Blackfyre aligned Golden Company.

Your theory is that Quentyn is the son of Rhaegar and Elia and got swapped with Doran's real son? Yeah, I'm sorry but I'm not buying this for a second.

3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

You probably know it all already ... you just need to connect the dots.  

I can assure you I do not. I'll take a look at the thread you mention if I have the time, but I don't anticipate being convinced in the least.

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2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I'm not saying I think it's totally implausible that Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore, but the main reason I'm skeptical is that nothing in the text suggests it besides Lemore being mysterious and Ashara's supposed manner of death allowing for a fakeout. Ashara Dayne is very interesting, but she is way more prominent on online message boards than in the text itself. She comes up about a half dozen times in five books, and we get very little insight into who she was as a person.

I don't think thats a fair criticism. Of course, we can agree to disagree in the end on that.

Ashara Dayne's value is not who she was as a person, its her connections. Yes, she is a fairly oblique character. But she is rather prominent in the apparent central mystery in the early books - Jon's mother. 
And as we progress through the books and they develop the Robert's-Rebellion-timeline-and-how-that-history-impacts-the-current-events narrative she becomes ever more intriguing. I honestly can't think of a single other character connected to all the 'camps' she is connected to, who we might still have a chance to meet.
She's Arthur Dayne's sister.
She's Ned's supposed lover, presented as Jon's mystery mother.
She's Elia's close friend and Handmaid.
She's Barristan's never-tried-for crush.
She's a courtier at Aerys' court and Rhaegar's home.
She was at Harrenhal tourney.
She is famously 'dead' but no witnesses and no body.

That list comes from GRRM's writing, not 'online message boards'. Ashara is, I think, virtually unique in the way she ties together the past (Ned's generation's big events of their youth) and how it interacts with the present.

And Lemore is clearly set up as a reader mystery by GRRM, which shows meta-importance in the ongoing narrative more than is immediately apparent from her role thus far.

Quote

Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. 

"We are sworn to protect you," Lemore said softly.

 Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

Griff complained to Lady Lemore.

 

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

If someone read the books without having ever looked at any fan forums or theories, I thinks it's very unlikely they'd think that Lemore is Ashara as is.

Initially, yes. Because many of the clues that point toward Ashara-Lemore were not given, or were obscured, until well after we met Lemore. So its not immediately apparent that the two might be the same person.
FOr example, we don't learn that Ashara was dark, not fair, or carried a child, until a long time after Lemore has drifted out of view as a mysterious minor character.

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

The "purple eyes would be obvious so Martin made him not notice" doesn't seem likely to me

You don't think 'purple eyes' in ASoIaF are a huge red-flag? To even fairly casual readers?

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

given how Martin writes other mysteries and secret identities. For example, Alleras is literally Sarella spelled backwards and has a bunch of other obvious giveaways.

Alleras is a minor mystery that is of little importance to any major plot. Its not important for GRRM to keep it hidden and most readers wouldn't even notice the minor connection that sets it up as a mystery. There isn't even a 'mystery' to notice without that huge giveaway. Only with that one huge giveaway are the other little clues even noticeable.

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Describing Lemore as having purple eyes might be an obvious clue to a small number of people like us who obsessively follow message boards and fan theories, but that's not really how George writes.

I think purple eyes is a huge red flag to almost any reader. They are a signature identifier for a key group and incredibly rare and extremely remarked upon.

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

He doesn't approach it from the meta POV of trying to deceive his most obsessed readers and throw off fan theorists.

But he does make readers work for themselves. He does use obscuration and even disinformation to conceal important mysteries and make them hard to decipher and relatively ambiguous. We still don't know for sure Jon's mother, or what happened around his birth (though for some the evidence is considered overwhelming, others dispute it just as strongly), for example. Nor is Dany's childhood clear (I think it is, mostly and we've already been given the major reveal, personally, but it is incontrovertible that many others think much is still hidden there). Nor are the full events and ramifications of Harrenhal and the Rhaegar/Lyanna story clear. Etc etc.

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

And I don't even think that would be conclusive proof by any means; there would still be theories that she was YG's real mother and/or a Blackfyre descendant (and/or perhaps a Brightflame descendant) or some other hidden Targ/Valyrian. 

Sure. GRRM doesn't do conclusive proof until he's ready (and often not even then if it still works for him to leave things open). And obsessive fan theorists will still have a million alternative (and mostly wacky) theories no matter how much evidence GRRM provides in any direction.
But the connections and meta value for Ashara being Lemore would be overwhelmingly dominant should Lemore have purple eyes. Everything *else* connects that way, the eyes are just the cherry on top. Whereas for the Backfyre/targ/etc theories, they have very very little else, and would be relying almost solely on the eye colour and connection to (f)Aegon.
Further, on a meta level they (Blackfyre/targ) add nothing and they provide no reader-significant resolution to Lemore's 'secrets and hidden identity'. Sure, they 'solve' them, but if she's a totally new secret character anyway, thats not really a secret that GRRM is hiding for the reader to puzzle out is it? 

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Again, I'm not saying this theory is totally impossible. It's probably as good a guess as any for Lemore, but that's mostly because we don't really know much about her.

Don't we? Not much of her personality, no.
We know roughly her age, sex and background/status. 
We know she was closely connected with Rhaegar and Elia and moved in the halls of power.
We 'know' she was dishonoured and had a bastard child who supposedly didn't survive - within a year or less of the birth of Aegon.
We know she came from an Island and lived by the sea. We 'know' she supposedly committed suicide by throwing herself from a tower into the sea (but no body and no known witnesses).
We know she was very attractive and noticed by men - even men with no possibility of an ongoing interest in her (Barristan, who's vows prevent marriage, HR picked her out as relevant in a party).
We know she had dark hair (though initial indications seemed as though she had fair hair).
We know she knew young Connington, as well as Brandon and Ned Stark, and Oberyn Martell. So even aside from her connection to the royal family she moved amongst powerful and important people from disparate groups in Westeros.
We know she is connected to the Starks in some way. (I think there is actually very little with Ned, the real only connection Ashara had being with Brandon and not therefore being much relevant to the ongoing story, but I include this because I'm trying to be exhaustive and open, though I will probably miss something.)

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

There's not really any more to support the theory than any other theory Ashara gets slotted into as a mystery box solver, and I'm not sold that Martin couldn't describe Lemore's eye color because it would be too obvious of a hint in his mind.

What do we know about Lemore?
We know roughly her age, and sex. We know she appears to have a hidden westerosi noble background. She appears to intimately know the Faith of the Seven (refer Sansa's upbringing).
We know she has a close connection with 'Rhaegar and Elia's son' and is moving in the halls of power-to-be.
We know she had a child, though none of hers appear to be referenced.
We know she is a regular and accomplished swimmer.
We know she is attractive and noticed by men.
We know she has dark hair.
We know she is connected to Connington and appears to have an ongoing role at (f)Aegon's side even though Connington thinks her role as tutor is finished now.
We don't know of any connection between her in the Starks.
 

Literally everything we know about Lemore fits with the few things that we know about the apparently opaque and unknown Ashara. And almost everything we know about Ashara fits with what we know about Lemore.
Though often not at first glance - we have to work for some of these connections, or wait for data later in ADwD, but they are there. They are also fairly direct and specific (given the generally vague nature of what we do know), unlike the rather tenuous and dependent-on-supposition links for most other options. By which I mean, we have direct verifiable, first person or witnessed-by-us evidence of all of the above, without controversion. Whereas, for example(s), Elia's murder was public, known and has no evidence of room for doubt, and Mellario theory assumes Mellario is not where we are told she is, for which there are no other clues., and also that Mellario is the mother of f(Aegon) when all available indications point o a different relationship and none point as a blood-mother.

Plus, Lemore as Ashara is capable of tying together with, or giving us important hidden background, to almost every important faction and mystery.  No other potential character has anywhere near that potential impact.  

Its certainly not proven, but its way way ahead of every other option in every way. Data, connections, meta-value, and potential going forward.
I don't try to bring it up to 'prove it' (but as here, and is often the case, end up in that direction as a conversation goes on), merely to show how weak the reasons are that people use against it.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/31/2021 at 3:01 PM, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Your theory is that Quentyn is the son of Rhaegar and Elia and got swapped with Doran's real son? Yeah, I'm sorry but I'm not buying this for a second.

That's fine.  Nobody is required to be convinced by anyone else's theory.  I'm not convinced that Lemore is Ashara, or Elia, or Nobody At All Who Cares.

Quote

I'll take a look at the thread you mention if I have the time, but I don't anticipate being convinced in the least.

Well, I don't want to waste your time hunting, so here it is.  Be as unconvinced as you please.

The broad points are these. (1) Rhaegar foresaw that his son Aegon was TPtWP; (2) Aegon foresaw that the Dragon has 3 heads; (3) Varys says baby Aegon survived and was smuggled out of King's Landing; (4) Illyrio hints a female line of the Blackfyres may survive; (5) Doran's wife Mellario, a noblewoman from Norvos, spends most of her time in Norvos; (6) Norvosi noblewomen shave their heads & wear wigs; (7) Lemore is a mystery woman [& a match for Mellario in terms of beauty, age, ladyship, motherhood etc.]; (8) we meet Young Griff & Lemore where the river meets the Pentos-to-Norvos road, [and it seems they did not come from Pentos];  (9) the Blackfyre-aligned Golden Company, which never breaks contracts, broke contract to join Young Griff's cause because "some contracts are signed in blood"; (10) Young Griff is a petulant sore loser [and IMHO no-one's idea of a Prince that Was Promised]; (11) there's a prophesy about a Mummer's Dragon; (12) Quentyn & Aegon are about the same age, and are first cousins by way of their Martell heritage; (13) a child that starts life resembling one parent can grow to resemble the other - Arianne Martell is an example; (14) Quentyn's nickname is "Frog" and Dany jokes about him being a Frog who will turn into a Prince; (15) Quentyn/Frog was fostered with the Yronwoods at a young age; the plan to foster him began when he was only 3, at which time Mellario threw a tantrum because she did want to be separated from her son; (16) when Frog sleeps, he dreams of fire and blood; (17) Frog yelled at a dragon and struck it in the face with a whip right after seeing it kill someone horribly [if that's not badass; I don't know what is]; (17) Prince Tatters is ordinary-looking, & says this makes it easy for him act incognito whenever he removes his striking cloak; (18) When Quentyn/Frog was supposedly fatally injured in the pit, there 4 non-descript Windblown present dressed in disguises similar to Frog's disguise; (19) the burnt-beyond recognition man who dies on Dany's bed speaks very little & only to make small requests of Missandei -- no-one else can bear to be in his company; (20) Frog's friends Archie & Gerris know something they cannot discuss in front of Barristan [or the reader]; (21) after escaping the pit, Viserion made his lair in a pyramid from which all the inhabitants fled [which pyramid then became a perfect hiding place for anyone not afraid of Viserion]. Note that all of the above [except the stuff in brackets which diverges to some extent into argument, though I believe I can defend them if challenged] is all straight from the book. 

Edited by Mister Smikes
Crossout portion may be a mismemory as pointed out later in this thread.

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17 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Your theory is that Quentyn is the son of Rhaegar and Elia and got swapped with Doran's real son? Yeah, I'm sorry but I'm not buying this for a second.

I can assure you I do not. I'll take a look at the thread you mention if I have the time, but I don't anticipate being convinced in the least.

 

I honestly don't think its worth your time. But these things need to be checked out anyway, just in case.

Apparently its not important that baby Aegon had the Targaryen look while Frog has, basically, the un-Targaryen look. 

I think its truly amazing the way people can connect disparate dots within a picture while ignoring both the actual picture and the lines drawn by the author inside it.
Only their own lines count.
Its quite a skill to have. 

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3 minutes ago, corbon said:

 

Apparently its not important that baby Aegon had the Targaryen look while Frog has, basically, the un-Targaryen look. 

Not if the author addresses it.  Which he already has done.  GRRM told us Arianne started life resembling one parent, and grew to resemble the other.  So GRRM has told us right out that it is possible for such things to happen.  Also it is common knowledge that children's hair and eyes can darken as they age.    And if, as Aegon aged, he began to no longer look the part, that provides yet one more motive for the swap (as if we don't have several already).

When I form theories, I try to look for converging threads.   In short, I look for multiple mysteries converging on a single conclusion, not multiple mysteries branching off into 100 different directions.  The advantage of my solution to the "who is Septa Lemore" question is that it points to solutions to many other mysteries.

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Here's a question for those who support the Elia theory.  Why is the Golden Company supporting them?  We are given pretty heavy hints that it is not just money.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, corbon said:

 

For me, Quentyn serves the Moqorro/Victarion plot by releasing the dragons into the city.  With Dany AWOL who is going to save the city and control at least one dragon.  Victarion will be able to fulfill the glorious role in store for him.  I'm doubtful that Quentyn could survive a full on blast of dragonfire hot enough to melt stone.  His death could create complications for Dany vis a vis the Martells and Arianne.  

Edit: If Quentyn is to have an important role, I'm not sure what it could be unless Moqorro raises Quentyn from the dead and makes another dragon rider.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not if the author addresses it.  Which he already has done.  GRRM told us Arianne started life resembling one parent, and grew to resemble the other. 

Quote please. I don't recall anything like this. Nothing I can find suggests Arriane ever looked anything un-Doran-like (not to mention nothing tells us what Mellario looked like). She's short, dark and large bosomed, As a child she was pudgy - which matches with short and large bosomed. Thats it. 

Quote

Also it is common knowledge that children's hair and eyes can darken as they age.   

Yes, but you are positing something a lot more than this.

Quote

SSM https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2000/08
Do you have any idea what Rhaenys and Aegon looked like? (Hair color, eye color, etc.)

Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen.

Aegon looked like a Targaryen. What does that mean? Generally speaking the "Targaryen look" is: tall, often lean, tending toward pale skinned, silver or golden hair, purple eyes. Quite distinctive. Yes, Aegon was a baby so tall and lean are not confirmed, and yes, Targaryens can also have other looks, but the above is the signature "Targaryen Look". And GRRM confirms directly that Aegon followed this look

And Frog?
He's short, stocky, olive skinned, dark eyed and black haired. 

This is not a small difference.
It is in fact virtually a perfectly antithetical look. Frog (and Arrianne and Doran) couldn't possibly look further from a Targaryen and still be from the same continent.

Quote

When I form theories, I try to look for converging threads.   In short, I look for multiple mysteries converging on a single conclusion, not multiple mysteries branching off into 100 different directions.  The advantage of my solution to the "who is Septa Lemore" question is that it points to solutions to many other mysteries.

It provides solutions to nothing of importance, it just ties together a few irrelevant unknowns.
Mellario only provides connections and resolutions to herself - a bit part character with a tenuous connection to Westeros.
Contrast that with what Ashara offers...

32 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Here's a question for those who support the Elia theory.  Why is the Golden Company supporting them?  We are given pretty heavy hints that it is not just money.

I think the answer to this is the same for any theory.
A chance for more than they can get in Essos. A chance to go "home" and gain their own lands and titles etc. More and more permanent rewards than they have any chance of in Essos. Maybe even a sort of resolution for any current members (we haven't seen any) who do have (now far-removed) ties to the founding members
The Golden Company is not what it was. Few remain of those who began it, and those that do have original connections are 2-3 generations removed from its origins.
A dragon is a dragon. What does any current member of the Golden Company really care whether it be black or red? Nothing at all. If they can put a dragon in power, then they can get everything their forbears dreamed of.

This is all fairly explicit and shouldn't need pointing out, but people romanticise the Golden Company far more than the current membership deserves.

 

Edited by corbon

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Posted (edited)

One thing to know about GRRM's use of archetypes and "reborn" characters: a person like Septa Lemore can be a symbolic version of Ashara Dayne without being the literal Ashara Dayne in disguise. We see this in other characters that evoke: Dolorous Edd, Jon Connington and Rattleshirt evoking Ned Stark, for instance, without literally being Ned Stark in disguise; Mance Rayder evoking Prince Rhaegar, Ser Garlan Tyrell evoking Renly, etc. 

This kind of reborn character gives the author flexibility because he can have a character such as Ashara appear in more than one character arc. For instance, I think we could make a very strong case that Septa Mordane is a reborn version of Ashara Dayne just as Septa Lemore may be a reborn version of the same archetypal character. One of the most important things to know about Septa Mordane is that she is beheaded and her head appears on the wall of the Red Keep alongside the head of Ned Stark. GRRM doesn't include details like that in the book unless they have deeper meaning. If Mordane represents Ashara, and we know that Ned and Ashara were linked earlier in their lives, it makes more sense for them to die together. 

A few posts up the thread, the list of things we "know" about Septa Lemore leaves out some important clues. She wears a belt that is seven colors. No one else in the books has a belt like this. She is a septa so the reader assumes that the belt is the colors of the rainbow, but why doesn't GRRM tell us that the belt is comprised of rainbow colors? Why does he tell us only that it is seven colors? This could be a further clue for the people who think Lemore's eyes may be purple but Tyrion doesn't mention or notice. Another possibility is that Lemore is part of GRRM's larger Wizard of Oz motif. In that movie, the Kansas part of the story is filmed in black and white, I believe. The eye-popping technicolor begins when Dorothy and Toto find themselves in Oz. Maybe the strangely missing eye color and the (possible, probable) rainbow belt colors are left out because Tyrion is still in Kansas at this stage of his journey. (Note, we also see colors appearing after a monochromatic interlude in Sansa's snow castle scene at the Eyrie.)

Another important thing we know about Lemore is that she is good at sewing. This is another quality identified with Septa Mordane. Lemore helps to sew a suit of motley for Tyrion after his first swim in the river. The boy's clothes they repurpose for Tyrion's suit of many colors (Aha! The colors have appeared!) are from a chest provided by Illyrio. Where else have we seen a chest provided by Illyrio? Dany's wedding gift, which was a chest containing dragon eggs and silk fabrics. 

The significance of the new clothes for Tyrion is not only that he takes on many significant colors and that he helps to sew his own clothing, but that the motley outfit helps him to fulfill his destiny of becoming a fool. Fools in ASOIAF are wise and have insights that others lack. What does it mean that Lemore is the one who helps him to finally achieve this milestone in his arc? (Of course, Jon Connington is the one who orders him to make the outfit so he plays a role in this foolish destiny as well.)

It's great to look at (f)Aegon / Young Griff to try to figure out the clues and identity of Septa Lemore, but what if we also look at her role in Tyrion's arc? GRRM has given us clues that Tyrion is a literal or figurative chimera, born of both Tywin and Aerys. Illyrio and Varys deliver Tyrion from some "hatched eggs": the wine cask in which Tyrion hides for the voyage across the narrow sea and the litter in which both Illyrio and Tyrion travel to Ghoyan Drohe. I suspect the hidden meaning in Ghoyan Drohe is an anagram: Dragon hey ho. In his journey aboard the Shy Maid, Tyrion is realizing his destiny as the son of Aerys and "becoming" the dragon Aerys always dreamed of hatching. Septa Lemore is instrumental in Tyrion's transformation. 

Edited by Seams

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

One thing to know about GRRM's use of archetypes and "reborn" characters: a person like Septa Lemore can be a symbolic version of Ashara Dayne without being the literal Ashara Dayne in disguise.
...
It's great to look at (f)Aegon / Young Griff to try to figure out the clues and identity of Septa Lemore, 

While I respect (though don't entirely trust - its too subjective for my taste, but its awesome when other people work these metaphorical connections out) this line of figurative thinking, I think in this case we have some rather blunt direction from Lemore herself that she has a secret identity.
I don't think she's doing this metaphorical type stuff about herself even if GRRM might have.
Lemore is secretly a westerosi noblewoman with connections and motivations relating to Aegon's origins and probably known toa younger Jon Connington.

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