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Stormking902

Any ideas on how house Bolton and house Redfort became friends?

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I find it odd Roose has a friend in the Vale in the Redforts, any ideas how they became friends? Any connections between the FORT in dreadFORT or RedFORT? Roose seems like the type to wanna raise an heir in the North and not the honourable Vale like shit look what it did to Ned AND Domeric sounds like a kind lad which obviously he got by being raised in the Vale and NOT by Roose. 

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Presumably the Bolton family saw the Starks making Vale ties and got jealous. They’re always looking out for a way to supplant the Starks, so why not make a Vale bond of their own to undermine the Starks if necessesary?

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38 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

I find it odd Roose has a friend in the Vale in the Redforts, any ideas how they became friends? Any connections between the FORT in dreadFORT or RedFORT? Roose seems like the type to wanna raise an heir in the North and not the honourable Vale like shit look what it did to Ned AND Domeric sounds like a kind lad which obviously he got by being raised in the Vale and NOT by Roose. 

There were close ties between the North and the Vale leading up to and during Robert's Rebellion.

Eddard Stark fostered with Lord Jon Arryn in the Vale from 270-271 AC to around 279 AC (AGOT: Catelyn II, SSM 3/16/2000).

His elder brother Brandon Stark's companions included Elbert Arryn, Jon's nephew and heir, and Kyle Royce (ACOK: Catelyn VII).

Their father Lord Rickard Stark's aunt Jocelyn wed Benedict Royce, of the junior branch of House Royce, with whom she had three daughters, who Catelyn says wed a Waynwood, a Corbray, and maybe a Templeton, though she seems unsure about that last one (ASOS: Catelyn V).

Lord Rickard Stark and his wife Lyarra Stark were also both descended from Larra Royce, the wife of Lord Beron Stark, so Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, and Benjen were descended from Larra Royce on both sides (TWOIAF).

The Redforts, like the Royces and Belmores, are among the Vale houses that proudly proclaim their descent from the First Men. The Redforts are also one of the families, along with the Waynwoods, Belmores, and Templetons, that is said to be giving all their support to the senior branch of House Royce, who is said to be close to open revolt over Lysa's failure to aid Robb in his war (ASOS: Sansa VII).

Perhaps the Redforts had recent blood ties to House Stark through the daughters of Jocelyn Stark and Benedict Royce. Or perhaps they simply became close to Eddard while he was being fostered with Jon. 

They broke their fast on black bread and boiled goose eggs and fish fried up with onions and bacon, at a trestle table by the river's edge. The king's melancholy melted away with the morning mist, and before long Robert was eating an orange and waxing fond about a morning at the Eyrie when they had been boys. "… had given Jon a barrel of oranges, remember? Only the things had gone rotten, so I flung mine across the table and hit Dacks right in the nose. You remember, Redfort's pock-faced squire? He tossed one back at me, and before Jon could so much as fart, there were oranges flying across the High Hall in every direction." He laughed uproariously, and even Ned smiled, remembering. (AGOT: Eddard VII)

Whatever the case, the Boltons are one of House Stark's most powerful bannermen, and the Redforts are one of the most ancient houses in the Vale which trace their descent to the First Men, and if nothing else, the close ties between the North and the Vale going back at least to the early 270s AC would have given them reasons and opportunities to try to establish ties, if there weren't already ties.

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12 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

I find it odd Roose has a friend in the Vale in the Redforts, any ideas how they became friends? Any connections between the FORT in dreadFORT or RedFORT? Roose seems like the type to wanna raise an heir in the North and not the honourable Vale like shit look what it did to Ned AND Domeric sounds like a kind lad which obviously he got by being raised in the Vale and NOT by Roose. 

I wonder why neither Roose nor Ned considered Domeric as a suitor for Sansa.

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8 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder why neither Roose nor Ned considered Domeric as a suitor for Sansa.

Domeric was already a man grown when he died in 297 AC (ACOK: Bran II, ADWD: Reek III). Sansa was "only eleven" at the start of AGOT the next year in 298 AC, as Ned stresses to both Robert and Catelyn after Robert proposes the match between her and Joffrey (AGOT: Eddard I, Catelyn II). Ned probably wasn't looking hard at matches for his young daughter when Domeric was alive, though I imagine Roose would have loved such a match for his heir.

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14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder why neither Roose nor Ned considered Domeric as a suitor for Sansa.

Who says he wasn't considered? He died about a year before we pick up the books and at the time of his death Sansa was still a couple years from flowering. I'd imagine Domeric might have been at least considered for Alys Karstark as well. We don't know when she was promised to Daryn Hornwood. Then again, maybe a Bolton with a blood-claim to Winterfell and the North is a bad idea? After all even with the crown's blessing Roose is intent on getting Stark blood into his bloodline and according to supplemental material the two houses has never intermarried.

 

Now, regarding the OP -- I have seen this asked before. How Roose came to know Lord Redfort is anyone's guess. I myself have wondered if the Dreadfort and the Red Kings and House Redfort are connected in some way. It is entirely possible, though there is no evidence for it, that House Redfort is a distant cadet-dynasty of the Boltons started by some brother or second son of an ancient Red King. Or perhaps it is the reverse?

 

Roose's mother could have been a Redfort or maybe he had a brother at some point who was married to one or a sister who married one or an aunt or something.

Another possibility of-course is that Roose's first wife was a Redfort. Even if she died without issue he might still wish to maintain a connection to the Redfort's and so send his son and heir by his second wife to squire there. A showing of respect and signalling of a wish to try again, perhaps with the next generation to bind the two houses.

 

Or maybe the two met at some point prior and just hit it off. Honestly, we have no real information to go on so it is just pure speculation that can't possibly provide any answers. I do suspect we'll find out more about the Boltons in the next book if it ever comes out. If nothing else, if the Boltons lose in the North then somebody will want the Dreadfort and figuring out who can claim it would likely reveal to use the marriage history of House Bolton. I find it curious that the Boltons are established in the lore as ancient rivals of the Starks yet in the preceding three or four or more centuries... they are never mentioned as having been important to any of the events in the North or involving the North. They just seem to be inconsequential until 298 when Roose answers Robb's call and then plays his hand at the Game. Perhaps George has kept more modern references to them in the support material released over the years because he plans for them and their history with House Stark to be very prominent in Winds.

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26 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder why neither Roose nor Ned considered Domeric as a suitor for Sansa.

How old is Domeric supposed to be anyway? That seems to be unclear because Roose mentions Barbrey as Lady Dustin.

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses . . . the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster much be a great horseman first." (Reek III, ADWD 32)

It seems like he would have been of an age with Lyanna, if anything, if they raced their horses.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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1 minute ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

How old is Domeric supposed to be?

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses . . . the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster much be a great horseman first." (Reek III, ADWD 32)

It seems like he would have been of an age with Lyanna, if anything, if they raced their horses.

He was not of an age with Lyanna, it's impossible. He served Lady Dustin as a page, so that was after she married William Dustin, whom she appears to have married just before Robert's Rebellion. So that along with Roose's description of him as a "boy" places him as having been born only a few years before Robert's Rebellion at the most. It seems he finished his squiring for Lord Redfort and then returned home and felt lonely after a little while. A few weeks? A few months? A year or two, maybe. The wiki has his age worked out to being about Theon's age give or take.

I think the comparison to Lyanna is misunderstood; Roose/Barbrey are comparing how he rode to how Lyanna rode as they both got to witness each person riding horses, but not necessarily riding horses together. For Domeric to be of an age with Lyanna Roose would need to be about a decade or so older than he appears to be.

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6 minutes ago, Sourjapes said:

I think the comparison to Lyanna is misunderstood; Roose/Barbrey are comparing how he rode to how Lyanna rode as they both got to witness each person riding horses, but not necessarily riding horses together. For Domeric to be of an age with Lyanna Roose would need to be about a decade or so older than he appears to be.

I get that English is not my first or even my second language, but the quote says;

"Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him . . ." which implies that they must have raced each other. 

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I get that English is not my first or even my second language, but the quote says;

"Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him . . ." which implies that they must have raced each other. 

It can imply that but it doesn't have to imply that. All it means is a comparison of the two riding, it doesn't imply anything else as to whether they actually raced one another or not. The comparison could have occurred directly by the two being of an age and riding together or it could be a comparison done after the fact by someone who witnessed both ride at separate times and places. Such I could compare an old (American) Football player to a modern (American) Football player and conclude;

 

"Not even Joe Namath could hit a field-goal so well."   Mind you these two players played the game a decade or two apart but I saw both play so I can compare.

Here is what proves Domeric was not of an age with Lyanna: if he was of an age with Lyanna then he'd be of an age with Lady Dustin as she was of an age with her too. A few yours older, but surely not that many considering Barbrey was a possible match for Brandon or Eddard at one point.

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4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses . . . the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster much be a great horseman first." (Reek III, ADWD 32)

This quote might make more sense if Roose is quoting something that Barbrey Dustin, who presumably would have known Lyanna quite well and might be more inclined to make such a comparison. 

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6 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

This quote might make more sense if Roose is quoting something that Barbrey Dustin, who presumably would have known Lyanna quite well and might be more inclined to make such a comparison. 

Yeah, Barbrey compares Lyanna to Brandon. And she probably saw them riding together.

In any case about the OP, I think the ties between House Redfort and the Boltons is an important one and may come back again. There's a Stark hiding out in the Vale and Roose could find that out through one of the Redforts.

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Interestingly, there were multiple Red Kings of the Dreadfort named Royce, two of whom are claimed to have taken and burned Winterfell: King Royce Bolton, Second of His Name, and Royce IV "Redarm," his descendant, who lived centuries later. Perhaps Roose itself is 

The enmity between the Starks and Boltons went back to the Long Night itself, it is claimed. The wars between these two ancient families were legion, and not all ended in victory for House Stark. King Royce Bolton, Second of His Name, is said to have taken and burned Winterfell itself; his namesake and descendant Royce IV (remembered by history as Royce Redarm, for his habit of plunging his arm into the bellies of captive foes to pull out their entrails with his bare hand) did the same three centuries later. Other Red Kings were reputed to wear cloaks made from the skins of Stark princes they had captured and flayed. (TWOIAF: The North: The Kings of Winter)

Not to say that this indicates an ancient relation between House Bolton and House Royce, as there are a number of examples of names being used by different houses in different regions. But we don't really know much about how nearly or distantly related the men and families that founded the First Men houses were, or whether some First Men houses were founded by descendants of other First Men houses.

Anyways, that isn't really pertinent to how Domeric came to squire for Lord Redfort, which surely would be based on something much more recent. Roose could have simply become acquainted with Lord Redfort during Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion. Or perhaps Roose had recent kin from the Redforts, or relatives who had married with the Redforts. We still don't even know anything about Roose's mother or father, let alone any siblings they might have had, or who their parents might have been.

As there are currently so few examples of the name Roose, it might be noteworthy that Lord Rodrik Ryswell, the father of Roose's deceased wife Bethany and of Lady Barbrey Dustin, and the grandfather of the deceased Domeric Bolton, has a son named Roose. I have always wondered if Lord Rodrik had wed or been born to a Bolton, and if the name of his son honored some predecessor of Lord Roose's. Perhaps not likely, since neither Roose nor Barbrey seem to note any such relation. But who knows?

 

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12 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

As there are currently so few examples of the name Roose, it might be noteworthy that Lord Rodrik Ryswell, the father of Roose's deceased wife Bethany and of Lady Barbrey Dustin, and the grandfather of the deceased Domeric Bolton, has a son named Roose. I have always wondered if Lord Rodrik had wed or been born to a Bolton, and if the name of his son honored some predecessor of Lord Roose's. Perhaps not likely, since neither Roose nor Barbrey seem to note any such relation. But who knows?

 

Do we ever get a description of how old Lord Rodrik's sons are? It's entirely possible that his son Roose was named for his son-in-law, providing he was born just after Roose married Bethany.

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10 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

Do we ever get a description of how old Lord Rodrik's sons are? It's entirely possible that his son Roose was named for his son-in-law, providing he was born just after Roose married Bethany.

I don't believe we have been told how old Lord Rodrik's sons are. It is possible that he named his son Roose after Roose Bolton, and perhaps that is even the likeliest explanation. It just seems a bit odd to me to name a son after a son-in-law. Then again, perhaps he named his son Roose before Lord Bolton was even wed to his daughter? It seems possible, perhaps even likely, that he named his other son Rickard after Lord Stark, whose son(s) he had hoped to wed his other daughter to. Perhaps he had been trying to flatter these two powerful lords in the North prior to trying to secure marriages with them?

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We don't have much info. Could be during Robert's or Greyjoy's rebellion, or they are two First Men houses and keep long time ties between them.

Redfort, Dreadfort, Nightfort. We don't know if there is some old connection. 

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13 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't believe we have been told how old Lord Rodrik's sons are. It is possible that he named his son Roose after Roose Bolton, and perhaps that is even the likeliest explanation. It just seems a bit odd to me to name a son after a son-in-law. Then again, perhaps he named his son Roose before Lord Bolton was even wed to his daughter? It seems possible, perhaps even likely, that he named his other son Rickard after Lord Stark, whose son(s) he had hoped to wed his other daughter to. Perhaps he had been trying to flatter these two powerful lords in the North prior to trying to secure marriages with them?

Lots of Walder or Walda Freys, some Hoster Freys, right? Also, Hosteen... Lyanna Mormont... lots of Lords like to name children after other Lords whom they want to curry favor from.

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9 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

We don't have much info. Could be during Robert's or Greyjoy's rebellion, or they are two First Men houses and keep long time ties between them.

Redfort, Dreadfort, Nightfort. We don't know if there is some old connection. 

 

-fort is going to be attached to any fortress... the Dread Fortress, the Red Fortress, the Night Fortress, the Bane Fortress, ect... The only, very thin, connection between the Dreadfort and House Redfort isn't the "fort" part it is the Dread/Red parts. It's notable because Roose/GRRM decided to have his heir squire there and the ancient Bolton kings were the RED Kings. Like I said, it is very thin and might mean nothing at all and Roose could have a much more mundane reason for squiring his heir to Lord Horton Redfort.

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2 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

 

-fort is going to be attached to any fortress... the Dread Fortress, the Red Fortress, the Night Fortress, the Bane Fortress, ect... The only, very thin, connection between the Dreadfort and House Redfort isn't the "fort" part it is the Dread/Red parts. It's notable because Roose/GRRM decided to have his heir squire there and the ancient Bolton kings were the RED Kings. Like I said, it is very thin and might mean nothing at all and Roose could have a much more mundane reason for squiring his heir to Lord Horton Redfort.

I was referring to the OP.

I agree btw. If there was something else I think we would know or about to learn in next books. 

There aren't records of the Boltons bothering with the Vale before the Rape of three sisters and the War Across the Water which was after the Andals came.

The Redforts were already there when the Stark/Bolton alliance was harassing the Vale.

Edited by The Sunland Lord

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