Jump to content
rotting sea cow

Villains joining the fight?

Recommended Posts

GRRM has expressed many times his preferences for grey characters, characters with internal conflicts who could do great and evil things depending on the circumstances and their own choices. As the series continue, we know that the important fight is the one against the others. Plenty of grey characters will join that fight. Chiefly among the grey ones are Daenerys and Tyrion (Jon is painted quite white), but others greyish will likely join too, like Jaime, Sandor,  Stannis, Jorah, etc.

What about those who are clearly in the black side. Shit people like Euron, Tywin, Ramsay, Gregor or Vargo. Some of them have died or will day soon, but there are plenty of petty and bigger villains (Aeron or Victarion for example) . None of them will join the fight?

It is possible that one thing that define villainy  in these series is the inability of these evil characters to have any conflict about their acts.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

GRRM has expressed many times his preferences for grey characters, characters with internal conflicts who could do great and evil things depending on the circumstances and their own choices. As the series continue, we know that the important fight is the one against the others. Plenty of grey characters will join that fight. Chiefly among the grey ones are Daenerys and Tyrion (Jon is painted quite white), but others greyish will likely join too, like Jaime, Sandor,  Stannis, Jorah, etc.

What about those who are clearly in the black side. Shit people like Euron, Tywin, Ramsay, Gregor or Vargo. Some of them have died or will day soon, but there are plenty of petty and bigger villains (Aeron or Victarion for example) . None of them will join the fight?

It is possible that one thing that define villainy  in these series is the inability of these evil characters to have any conflict about their acts.

 

 

 

Ramsay doesn’t care. He threw a feast using a house’s breeding stock, which means they won’t have food to last the winter. Tywin has shown outright disdain for the Watch and sought to bring it into the Game of Thrones by refusing to send more men unless Janos Slynt was elected Lord Commander.

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Euron is busy becoming a God, Victarion will probably fall and die, Ramsay prefers more sadistic things like hunting people with his dogs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

What about those who are clearly in the black side. Shit people like Euron, Tywin, Ramsay, Gregor or Vargo. Some of them have died or will day soon, but there are plenty of petty and bigger villains (Aeron or Victarion for example) . None of them will join the fight?

It is possible that one thing that define villainy  in these series is the inability of these evil characters to have any conflict about their acts.

I think that Tywin would have joined the good fight against the others, but Euron, Ramsay, Gregor etc. I feel those guys would kill a potential ally for the sake of killing, despite the fact it may lead to their own end.

I could see Aeron and Victarion joining the good fight, if they live.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think for a minute.  Just about anybody, black, gray or white, will join the fight to stay alive.  I think that is the point of the plot in the north.  Making an enemy of the Boltons and the Freys is very stupid because they can become valuable allies.  Expending the lives of able-bodied men to retake Winterfell is not a smart decision.  If Jon and Stannis were really putting the needs of the realm over the needs of their own families they would sign a truce with the Boltons in exchange for Roose sending more men to the wall.  Which he would do if he is assured that the Starks are not going to try take back the north.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Tywin

Unlike other four, I wouldn't call Tywin pure evil. He really loved his wife. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can easily imagine Roose and Ramsay participating in the fight.  They are in, and of, the North, and would likely realize that it is in their best interest to participate, either for political advancement (Roose) or self-preservation (Ramsay).

I have a harder time imagining villainous characters outside the North participating.  I doubt that they would even take it seriously.  I can also see characters such as Cersei or Littlefinger inhibiting the fight, seeing the Others invasion as an opportunity to advance their own interests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Harpycide said:

Think for a minute.  Just about anybody, black, gray or white, will join the fight to stay alive.  I think that is the point of the plot in the north.  Making an enemy of the Boltons and the Freys is very stupid because they can become valuable allies.  Expending the lives of able-bodied men to retake Winterfell is not a smart decision.  If Jon and Stannis were really putting the needs of the realm over the needs of their own families they would sign a truce with the Boltons in exchange for Roose sending more men to the wall.  Which he would do if he is assured that the Starks are not going to try take back the north.

Sign a truce w/ the Boltons? What makes you think the Boltons would be willing to do that? No one even believes in the WWs and the threat they pose. Roose has managed to accomplish something no other Bolton has in millennia: the Boltons now hold Winterfell and the North. No way he'd go for that. Once the threat becomes obvious, maybe. But even then I don't think it's very likely. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Harpycide said:

Think for a minute.  Just about anybody, black, gray or white, will join the fight to stay alive.  I think that is the point of the plot in the north.  Making an enemy of the Boltons and the Freys is very stupid because they can become valuable allies.  Expending the lives of able-bodied men to retake Winterfell is not a smart decision.  If Jon and Stannis were really putting the needs of the realm over the needs of their own families they would sign a truce with the Boltons in exchange for Roose sending more men to the wall.  Which he would do if he is assured that the Starks are not going to try take back the north.

Nope, people are perfectly capable of trying to stay out of it, throwing their enemies in front of the bus and even allying themselves with the Others. It wouldn't even need to be "black" characters. Fearful and desperate people can do all sorts of things even against their best interest. 

Roose can be counted to do what it is in Roose's best interest to do. He wouldn't anything of his on the line, unless it was already there. Otherwise he would leave the fight to others (no pun intended) and if push came to shove, pack up and leave. That said Jon should have at least considered treating with Roose. He even had leverage to blackmail him into helping. 

The notion that everyone would join against the Others once the threat becomes apparent... On the contrary fewer resources and less safe space would mean in many cases that the fighting will become more vicious. After all one's fellow man is easier to fight than ice demons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Harpycide said:

 

 

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

I can easily imagine Roose and Ramsay participating in the fight.  They are in, and of, the North, and would likely realize that it is in their best interest to participate, either for political advancement (Roose) or self-preservation (Ramsay).

I have a harder time imagining villainous characters outside the North participating.  I doubt that they would even take it seriously.  I can also see characters such as Cersei or Littlefinger inhibiting the fight, seeing the Others invasion as an opportunity to advance their own interests.

Definitely for survival because they will lose everything including their lives if the Others win.  It's stupid for Roose and Stannis to fight.  Stannis knows the threat.  His best play is to offer to take the black.

13 hours ago, Harpycide said:

Think for a minute.  Just about anybody, black, gray or white, will join the fight to stay alive.  I think that is the point of the plot in the north.  Making an enemy of the Boltons and the Freys is very stupid because they can become valuable allies.  Expending the lives of able-bodied men to retake Winterfell is not a smart decision.  If Jon and Stannis were really putting the needs of the realm over the needs of their own families they would sign a truce with the Boltons in exchange for Roose sending more men to the wall.  Which he would do if he is assured that the Starks are not going to try take back the north.

Agree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if the wight walkers and Others would get as far south as Dorne? Or if they threaten any of the other continents? How about Skagos, where Osha and Rickon are thought to have gone? Far north - yet an island. Well, pointless speculation.

I agree, the "bad guys" would fight to protect themselves. They'd be smart to realize that all of their human "enemies" who get killed will just rise again as living dead enemies, so infighting among Westerosi might be minimized. But I doubt everyone would join together under a single banner in a big kumbaya moment. That's Hollywood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:33 PM, rotting sea cow said:

GRRM has expressed many times his preferences for grey characters, characters with internal conflicts who could do great and evil things depending on the circumstances and their own choices. As the series continue, we know that the important fight is the one against the others. Plenty of grey characters will join that fight. Chiefly among the grey ones are Daenerys and Tyrion (Jon is painted quite white), but others greyish will likely join too, like Jaime, Sandor,  Stannis, Jorah, etc.

What about those who are clearly in the black side. Shit people like Euron, Tywin, Ramsay, Gregor or Vargo. Some of them have died or will day soon, but there are plenty of petty and bigger villains (Aeron or Victarion for example) . None of them will join the fight?

It is possible that one thing that define villainy  in these series is the inability of these evil characters to have any conflict about their acts.

 

 

 

Those black characters don't care about humanity. They'd sooner go to a safe space The Others can't reach than fight against them.

Nor do I think these characters you mention will survive to see the The Others., half of them are dead already.

The only exception would be maybe Euron, but he'd sooner fight with The Others than against them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/11/2018 at 5:33 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

Most of those cited are dead now

Nope.

Daenerys, Tyrion, Jaime, Sandor, Stannis, Jorah, Euron, and Ramsay are alive and kicking. The status of Gregor is doubtful. Only Tywin and Vargo are definitely dead.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we can completely predict what characters will do when faced with the Others, certainly not based on whether they are currently considered more "white," or more "black," or more "grey." When put on the spot against the reality of the White Walkers, a character generally considered to be "evil" could demonstrate courage, whether to go down fighting, or to save their own life, or to save another's, and a character generally considered to be "good" could demonstrate cowardice, whether to run away to save their own life, or to avoid trying to save another's. Some characters are portrayed as more good than grey, or more bad than grey, but every situation is an opportunity to make a decision that could go any number of ways, and I think that will be true of characters "black," "white," and "grey" when they come face to face with the Others. I think there is a lot of potential for unpredictable reactions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×