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Legitimate_Bastard

Jon being resurrected?

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I don't think so.  The only wights we know of had been people who died on the other side of the wall.  it seems likely that wights can't be raised if you die on the south side of the wall.

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Even if he did die, I don't think he will come back as a Wight. The Wall seems to be some kind of barrier for magic North of the Wall. The only time we've seen a Wight South of the Wall was when a body was brought back across the Wall by a member of the Nights Watch. Since Jon died South of the Wall I don't think the Others magic will work on him. 

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Firstly i still think there is a chance (like 0.000001%) that jon might still be alive. And even if he is,he is pretty much going to be resurrected,i don’t think he will become a wight. Theres still a bigger role for him to play that requires him to stay sane and as much human like as possible. Having said that,i do think the resurrected jon in the books is going to be much different than the previous jon. I mean this is ASOIF. We saw what resurrection did to lord beric and catelyn. So im curious how that is going to pan out. Resur. peeps hardly remain the same as before. 

But i do think in jon’s case it is going to be different. Even if he is dead i think he has warged into ghost for the interim period. Cat and beric never had tat chance. So i would like to believe that is the reason they are not same anymore. Their soul is also damaged in tat interim period and when it comes back to their body it is different. Everything is different. 

But with jon it can be pretty intact and whole while in ghost and he can warg back again to his human self? And still his body is going to be mutilated with all the stab wounds.. um,its really hard to say. We can only guess

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On 9/12/2018 at 12:51 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Is it possible that Jon could come back as a Wight due to his proximity to the Wall/Land beyond the Wall?

It absolutely is possible.  As a matter of fact, it would be the most likely scenario.  

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On 10/10/2018 at 8:54 PM, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Even if he did die, I don't think he will come back as a Wight. The Wall seems to be some kind of barrier for magic North of the Wall. The only time we've seen a Wight South of the Wall was when a body was brought back across the Wall by a member of the Nights Watch. Since Jon died South of the Wall I don't think the Others magic will work on him. 

To add to this, I believe it was shown that dragons are unable to fly over the wall. So it blocks magic both ways.

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But wasn't it shown that Coldhands himself cannot pass the Wall?

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Ambiguous. He said he couldn't pass but we never saw it demonstrated. In any case Jon was offed at Castle Black so his corpse might easily be taken outside.

The crucial point is that assuming he's dead [otherwise this thread is pointless] how is his story arc to continue, as GRRM has hinted?

His last recorded utterance was that cry to Ghost, so we can reasonably infer a transfer by warging into his four-legged lifeboat. There is then a problem in that according to the Varamyr prologue he's going to be stuck there, hence the suggestion that the Starks are far more powerful wargs, and he can in fact return to what will be a slightly damaged body per Coldhands. There are other implications too but you'll need to come over to the Heresy thread for that.

One thing which also needs to be born in mind is that GRRM [and folklore in general] has always made it very clear that returning from the dead has consequences. Its not the guilt-free experience depicted by the Mummers

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Do we know how the wight curse is transferred? For Catelyn’s revival all it needed was a kiss from someone who has been previously revived as a fire wight. So if the two bodies that Jon brought with him south of the wall were to rise .....and Bowen & co decided to store his body in the same cell...... ?

On the other hand I think they would already have had blue eyes at the time they were found if they were supposed to be become wights. 

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On 9/24/2018 at 8:57 PM, nickdt said:

Its not even clear that Jon died in the first place. 

Pretty convenient they didn’t chop his head off or ruin that lovely pretty face of his. Just a few polite little stab wounds you can cover over with sticky tape.

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His body is dead if not dying. He is reaching for ghost as the chapter closes. Varamyr tells us that a second life in Ghost would be a second life worth living. And it matches Mel's vision in the flames of a man, then a wolf, then a man again. Jon will return with at least a piece of Ghost inside of him.

 

All in all, it's laid on pretty thick in aDwD. 

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On 11/5/2018 at 12:13 AM, lavthelonewolf said:

Firstly i still think there is a chance (like 0.000001%

I think the odds for Jon not having died are way, way less unfavourable as you make them out to be. :P

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Posted (edited)

Regarding the Wall as a barrier of wightening magic. I would say that normally it does. But Mel has been using some of that power to do her stuff, some of that important, some of that for show. 

Also the Wall has been acting as being Jon's since Jeor died. The Wall is a type of ice mirror. But the only POV where George uses the word "reflect" for the Wall are in Jon's POV, and that only starts from the chapter where he is to climb the Wall with the wildlings. When he sees Jarl climb he thinks of a wall only being as strong as how manned it is, and hopes some brother of the NW would show up. He forgets that he is that NW man (but he's not on the Wall yet). Then he prays the Wall could shake the men off. And what happens. The Wall shakes off several wildlings. Ygritte too mentions how she feels the Wall trying to throw her off. It's also in this section that Jon remembers Benjen's description of the Wall: it's a sword east of Castle Black (thus from Eastwatch to CB), and a serpent west of CB (from CB to the Shadow Tower) So here, George presents the idea of a mirror shield (the Wall), a sword, and a serpent, conjoining in Castle Black. 

When he returns to CB and helps defend against Mance's attack, we get the wording of "the Wall is yours", and Noye dies. And then he gets elected as the LC. In aDwD we get the "reflect" use several times. The last time is when Jon visits the Karstark he got in the ice cell during Alys's wedding feast. Jon sees himself reflected in the ice then. Later he has a dream where he alone defends the Wall against people (ghosts) climbing it. His armor is black ice. So, we have Jon reflected in the ice and then later Jon wearing ice. For me this is saying that Jon and the Wall have become "one". The Wall is not just Jon's, but Jon is the Wall, and the Wall is Jon. 

If that is the idea that George tries to get across here, then this means that if Jon is physically harmed, the Wall is harmed too. And if the Wall is harmed, then this might potentially allow the Others to use their magic to resurrect dead people as wights south of the Wall, even they themselves are North. 

There are indications that this is about to happen the night that Bowen Marsh attempts to assassinate Jon. 

From Jon's visit to Mole Town until his last chapter, a few times "smelly" things come up, each time related to different issues. It comes up in Mole's Town. The imprisoned Karstark's ice cell stinks of feces, and in the last chapter we even learn he has gotten into the habit of throwing shit at his guards (the shit is about to hit the fans). Jon thinks Axel Florent stinks (symbolically). Then there is the stink about Boroq's boar. And finally of course there's the Reek mention in the Pink Letter. 

Now, I don't regard this "stink" to mean that these particular people or characters are a threat to Jon directly, but they are a puzzle piece of issues festering that will all conjoin in the last chapter of aDwD. For example. Mole's Town represents the wildlings that Jon tries to save. This is where Jon's idea to man the Wall with wildlings begins, and rubs men like Bowen Marsh the wrong way. You can see that as one of the issues that is one of the ingredients leading up to the assassination attempt. But you can see it even more as a meta-parallel to Hardhome. The wildling who led a lot of people to Hardhome is Mother "Mole". And the stink appears in Mole's town. So, I think the stink is not so much related to the wildlings, as it is a hint to link the two Moles and identify Hardhome as an issue. What about Hardhome leads to Jon's assassination? The fact that Cotter Pyke put a mate of Slynt in charge of Eastwatch (remember that this is where the hilt of the sword-half of the Wall is). Slynt was a Lannister man, and Selyse may have stayed there for a while, but neither Eastwatch nor Selyse liked each other. So, once Cotter Pyke went to Hardhome and got stuck there, the man in charge at Eastwatch is someone who was already trying to conspire before Jon even got elected as LC. 

So then what is the shit with Karstark about? Well, Alys reveals the intentions of the Karstark's to betray Stannis to Jon in the company of Clydas. Even if Clydas is loyal to Jon, he's got loose lips. He used to be the man who read the letters arriving by raven to blind maester Aemon. And w've regularly seen how the brothers know of private content of letters before the person it was addressed to knows about it. Clydas is careless with the information given. And Alys presents this Karstark betrayal in such terms that she portrays Stannis's loss as a certainty. Jon tells her he'll send a letter to Deepwood Motte, but Alys says it will be too late. She does this in part, because she wants Jon to rescue her from a forced marriage ASAP, and not wait until Stannis sends word. Anyhow, Clydas most certainly spread the tale around. And Bowen Marsh had opportunity to communicate with Slynt's mate in charge of Eastwatch when Jon told Marsh to pass on the tally of the hoard that Tormund's wildlings surrendered to Jon as toll to pass through the gate of the Wall. Cregan Karstark himself also is open about this. He likely didn't just throw shit, he talked shit for sure as well. Cregan is taken out of his ice cell and put in a cell of the LC tower in the last chapter. Who holds the "keys" to any door in CB? Wick Wittlestick. Who is the first to harm Jon? Wick. If you then think of the Wall as a sword from Eastwatch to Castle Black, you can see that Slynt's mate has the hilt (and potentially this is where Alester Torne sought refuge), while Bowen Marsh and co stick Jon with the pointy end. Why is this so important: the fear that Stannis would end up killed was real for these men, and they planned ahead of what to do if there was any news that Stannis had lost his battle and was dead: kill Jon Snow so the Lannisters and their allies won't attack the NW. 

Axel Floren's stink is related to Val. Several of Selyse's men want Val for wife, not just for Val alone, but because they know Stannis might end up handing Winterfell to Val's husband. It's when Axel accuses Jon of wanting Val and Winterfell for himself that Jon thinks of Axel as stinking. Jon actually could have had both but rejected the offer. And in the last chapter, Selyse decided that Val would be wed to Patrek, who ends up trying to steal her only to be mangled by Wun Wun. This causes the distracting mayhem for the conspiritors to assassinnate Jon without intervention. And it also causes at least more than one dead guy in the yard.

So, now we arrive at the stink of Boroq's boar. Jon (with the help of Tormund) ends up seeing Boroq and his boar as a problem and antagonistic. But Boroq himself actually tries to show allegiance to Jon and respect him. The issue originates with Wolf taking a protective stance in front of Jon once he smells the boar. Then minutes later, the boar sniffs around the snow and ends up taking a stance as if he's going to charge. It's assumed by Jon that the boar intends to charge him. But Boroq warns Jon immediately after that "they are coming" (that is the Others are coming). Boroq is a long experienced skinchanger and he has had plenty of experience in trying to keep people safe from wights and Others. So, it's likely that the boar sniffed wights and Others coming provoking him to make a charge stance, and not Jon or Ghost. We learn in the last chapter that Boroq stays as far away from people as possible. He stays in the lichyard with his boar. And during the shield hall meeting, Boroq came to listen without the boar. We also learn that the boar has been "rooting" around in the graves of the lichyard. We know the NW have been burning their brothers ever since the two wights tried to assassinate Jeor in aGoT, but it is doubtful they've dug up any of their dead to burn them in retrospect. Those bodies are still in their graves. And that far North, they might be better preserved than somewhere far more south of the Wall. So, a stinky boar loosening earth from graves... hmmm, bad foreshadowing sign, and a parallel to Mance digging around in graves "and letting shades loose" (as Ygritte once put it).

This brings us to Ghost (and the raven). After learning of Selyse saying who's to wed whom, Jon returns to the armory. Just before arriving he looks up at the Wall and the sky above the Wall (it's all grey, a snow sky). He finds two of his guards standing outside in the cold, instead of being inside the armory. They explain why: Ghost is exceptionally aggressive, and even tried to take a bite out of one of them. Jon blames the boar's smell, even if he's as far away removed from Ghost as possibly can. Jon goes inside and tries to calm Ghost, but Ghost acts even aggressive towards Jon himself. We can thus rule out the cause of Ghost's aggression towards the guards as Ghost suspecting them of plotting to kill Jon. The Raven too is in a state of severe anxiety, shouting "Snow!" several times. We, the readers, have been conditioned to see this as what Samwell trained the ravens to say and to see it as the raven using Jon's name. In this case however I think the raven is trying to warn Jon about the implications of the "snow"... the Others are just north of the Wall and very very near. In any case, Jon cannot calm either the raven or Ghost at this point.

"Well, that's because they're trying to warn Jon about plans of his assassination," you might reason. But we can disprove this, because Bowen Marsh comes to the armory to discuss certain issues with Jon (his rescue plan to relieve the survivors and the NW brothers at Hardhome). And when Bowel Marsh leaves, Ghost goes over to sniff him. While Ghost isn't friendly to Bowen Marsh at this point, he isn't even as aggressive to Bowen as he was to Jon and the guards earlier on. That's rather odd, if the reason he was aggressive in the first place was the assassination plot. So, what changed to make Ghost less aggressive? Well, Jon steps out of the armory together with Bowen Marsh and they notice the weather has become a snowstorm except the wind is blowing from the south (not the north). Hence, we can conclude that whatever made the raven frantic and Ghost so aggressive had to do with what they smelled coming north of the Wall: wights and Others. Once the wind changed and started to blow from the south, the wights and Others are "downwind" and thus Ghost and the raven calm down. In fact, the raven becomes so much calmer later that he japes with Tormund when the wildling comes to discuss stuff with Jon in the armory. And Ghost's behavior isn't even remarkable anymore, except for the fact he tries to follow Jon when Jon leaves to get to the shield hall. So, the Others (and wights) are North of CB and the Wall, at the rim of the Haunted Forest, lying in wait. 

By the time Jon goes to the Shield Hall, it's night time. We know this because his guards have been replaced by the evening watch guards. And in winter time, evening is darkness and nighttime.

So, the assassination attempt is done during the nighttime. The drawing of Jon's blood is like drawing blood of the Wall itself. Graves have been rooted up by a boar. And then you have a giant whirling around a dead guy. And after the first cut, Jon hears screaming (the cause is left unexplained), his fingers are too numb and clumsy to free the sword, and the last he feels before passing out is the cold. 

So, if you ask me whether the Others can wightify a dead man south of the Wall? Normally they cannot. But when Jon's blood was drawn, they could and it's actually already happening, hence people "screaming" and hence the "cold". 

 

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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To turn this around, does anyone think there's a chance Jon is dead dead?  Dead as Rob?  What if. . . that's just it for him?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, argonak said:

To turn this around, does anyone think there's a chance Jon is dead dead?  Dead as Rob?  What if. . . that's just it for him?

I think he's dead, but will be resurrected by either Melisandre or maybe even Val. He won't be the same, though. He'll be more like Coldhands than a wight. Wights remember some of their previous life, but they don't hold conversations, and their movements can be controlled by white walkers.

I think Jon was destined to become the Nights King reborn. Not only that, history is undoing itself and repeating certain events, but how they conclude will be different the second time around. IMO, the reflection Jon sees in the Wall just means that Jon is going to repeat the role of Lord Commander/Nights King, but just like a mirror, everything will be backwards.

Recall that the Nights King was a Lord Commander first, but his men mutinied against him, because he married an Other. All of these events happened to Jon also, except in a different order and with different outcomes.

In Heresy right now we are discussing Jon Snow's possible fate, what happened to the Nights King, and what exactly is in the lower levels of the Winterfell crypts. I had suggested that the man who later became known as the Nights King started out as a brother to the man who became Lord of Winterfell. The two brothers fought. Jon Snow and Robb Stark used to play-fight when they were young and whoever "called it" first could be the Lord of Winterfell. They played this game hundreds of times, but one day Robb clobbered him and told Jon that his lady mother told him that Jon could never be the lord of Winterfell, because he was a bastard.

One of the brothers may have been a bastard like Jon Snow and took the birthright of the trueborn heir. We have a similar circumstance with Ramsay. He is a bastard "Snow" like Jon, but Roose Bolton legitimized him and gave him Winterfell. Perhaps the winner of the ancient fight for Winterfell was an elder bastard son who overthrew the younger trueborn son? Defeated, the trueborn son was sent to the Wall, because at least the bastard didn't want to be guilty of kinslaying. The trueborn son rises through the ranks and becomes the Lord Commander, but falls in love with a wildling. The bastard brother - who would have declared himself the legitimate heir and changed his name to Stark - helps cast down his brother and sentences him to living beyond the Wall with the wildings. 

Recall that Jon Snow also went to live with the wildlings for a time, but it wasn't a sentence - it was Qhorin Halfhand's idea in order for Jon to gain intelligence about what the wildlings were planning to do. Jon learns of their plans and climbs over the Wall with Ygritte and a raiding party and escapes to warn the Watch. Everything Jon did was the opposite of the man who became the Nights King. You know the rest - prior to the climb Jon fell in love with a wildling named Ygritte, but he didn't "spy" her from atop the Wall and he didn't marry her. After his escape, he and Stannis allow the wildlings through the Wall, and this is the event that was the main grudge that led to the mutiny - that, and the letter signed by Ramsay Bolton. Jon gives an inspirational speech to garner support for men to join him in attacking Winterfell. As Lord Commander, Jon was readying to go to Winterfell instead of the other way around, and he's stabbed before he can leave. If the Nights King survived his mutiny and was sent to live with the wildlings, then Jon Snow will die, but will with his resurrection he'll become the stereotypical Nights King monster that the old stories made him out to be.

As the Nights King he will join forces with the wildlings which is the opposite of history where the Lord of Winterfell allied with the wildlings. Together they will defeat the Lord of Winterfell. In the end Jon won't remain at Winterfell, because undoing historical events require that Jon return Winterfell to a trueborn heir.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Yes, and it was one of the best moments in the book and series. I like this hero and everything connected to him.

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26 minutes ago, LisaRay said:

Yes, and it was one of the best moments in the book and series. I like this hero and everything connected to him.

I’m not sure what you mean. In the books, last we saw Jon he’d been stabbed, but that’s it. Nothing else happened yet. 

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On 5/26/2019 at 12:53 PM, Aldarion said:

To add to this, I believe it was shown that dragons are unable to fly over the wall. So it blocks magic both ways.

Wasn't it mentioned in one of Bran's chapters that a Targaryen princess was a friend of the Night's Watch and used to fly there often with her dragon? I may be confused, but I believe I remember that she visited the Wall... My Targaryen history is very rusty. 

 

On 7/23/2019 at 7:34 PM, Feather Crystal said:

As the Nights King he will join forces with the wildlings which is the opposite of history where the Lord of Winterfell allied with the wildlings. Together they will defeat the Lord of Winterfell. In the end Jon won't remain at Winterfell, because undoing historical events require that Jon return Winterfell to a trueborn heir.

For some time I too thought that Jon would somehow return to Winterfell to free it, but I've discarded that idea. I don't want him to be the tragic hero with a written destiny, even if predestination seems to be a solid motif throughout ASoIaF, I believe that GRRM has something different in store for him. I certainly hope it's not to remain inside Ghost forever and then slowly fade into the wolf's spirit and die. Neither do I wish for a Coldhands 2.0. Jon is my favourite character and no matter how many theories I revisit, his fate is, in my opinion, the one that hangs bya thread the most. Because, let's imagine what you said takes place: what would be his fate once Winterfell is freed and returned to a trueborn heir? Such a scenario would make him a stranger in a strange land. Back to the Wall? North of the Wall? Impossible. South? I don't see Jon/whatever he becomes going to KL, or the Vale, or the Riverlands, Dorne etc. What connections would he have left in the world? Sansa's the only one which we know 100% will remain within Westeros forever. Arya's another mystery. God knows what will become of Bran. When and IF Sam returns to the Wall, maybe there isn't a Wall or the Night's Watch anymore... Encountering Rickon somewhere in the North is the only possibility left in a scenario like this.

Edited by iberiandirewolf

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