Jump to content
Angel Eyes

Why did nobody try to curb Joffrey?

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He is not an enthusiasm.

What do you mean?

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, thi4f said:

You seem angry about Robert, for some odd reason.

Some thoughts:

  • I don't want to change subject too much, but when it comes to bankrupting the realm... well, I'd just say I don't really buy that narrative. Sure, we have many opinions on poor state finances in 298 AC, but there is really no good explanation given. If he was recruiting huge armies, building castles, improving infrastructure, made poor investments - in other words, dealing carelessly with HUGE amounts of money - that would make sense. But feasts and tourneys? Does GRRM really want me to believe that King of the Seven Kingdoms has a budget of mid-tier NBA player that can go bankrupt in Atlantic City, buying expensives watches and paying rent for his Nantucket mansion? Hah, a good one.
  • I'd say that Littlefinger, bottom-5 moral person, the most unethical bureaucrat in Westeros, has been the Master of Coins for many years now and became one of the richest men around. His responsibility is at least plausible.
  • I don't recall Robert being with whores constantly while Ned kept an eye on him in King's Landing or on the road. We have many accounts that he's unfaithful and likes ladies, but he's not "living in a brothel" either.

You mention those 16 bastards as the evidence of what, exactly? Inefficient governing? How was Robert different from other rulers of past epochs?

  • Ramessess II (the Great) had 52 bastard SONS mentioned by name on monuments that survived 3000+ years so we can read about them
  • Genghis Khan is estimated to have 200 children easily
  • Augustus II the Strong (King of Saxony and Poland, XVIII century) fathered around 350 children
  • I found sultans who allegedly fathered 500+ kids, the highest estimate for Ismail ibn Sharif being 1100
  • modern Saudi Arabian kings father dozens, if not hundreds of children.

I underlined the word "family" so I'm not accused of suggesting that one king himself fathered 15.000 ;) But it just shows what numbers we are talking about, the scale is just huge.

Would you describe any of the above as whoring all the time?

When it comes to opinions of Cersei, Jon and Stannis. Sure, they are a source of knowledge to us, I guess, but these are subjective opinions, most of all.

  1. Jon Snow compared his first impression of Robert Baratheon to stories he's heard, stories about a 6'6" muscular warrior, smashing enemies left and right. Hard to live up to those expectations. Jon's thoughts can only serve as a proof of Bobby's obesity. But whoring?
  2. Cersei is biased against Robert, I mean she was aborting his children for 15 years :D hard to interpret this one-liner as an in-depth relation of Robert's daily schedule. Sure, he was having sex with other women, and a lot of it, but again how is it different from other rulers in history, from any culture, any point in time?
  3. Freddie Mercury was a singer. I had a dream about him singing on Wembley Stadium, because I've seen it and he is known for that. I didn't dream about him having a breakfast, reading Daily Mirror, composing songs, rehearsing or partying, because he I associate him with concerts. I'm not surprised Stannis associated Robert with parties, that's what he enjoyed.

Is any of those claims a proof Robert was always whoring and drinking? I agreed with you that he's no saint, but DOING IT ALL THE TIME is such an obvious hyperbole on your part.

 

Drunk and whoring don't have much in common with decency, at least in my opinion ;) Cheers

The reason I am angry about Robert isn't odd at all. I am an incel teetotaler. Therefore all instances of alcohol consumption and fornication trigger me and make me lose my mind. There was no trigger warning. Forgive me, please. :dunce:

In all seriousness, I cannot provide evidence that Robert was always drinking and whoring. You are right - it is hyperbole and a poor choice of words. 

You are also right, drinking and whoring do not make someone a poor ruler.

On the budget - Robert didn't give a shit about the budget. The debt is not all drinking and whoring debt, you are right.

Any other sweeping generalizations I made were nothing more than a failed attempt to convey that when I was reading the book I was of the opinion that Robert was the kind of man who did not have too much of an active role in the upbringing of his son. Robert came off to me as the kind of man who prefers a good time over anything else, which played a part in his absence as a parent.

I yield, sir.  

Edited by Legitimate_Bastard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

What do you mean?

I was joking. Curb your enthusiasm is Larry David's show.

ETA: Besides, Joff isn't enthusiasm indeed.

Edited by The Sunland Lord

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In fairness to Legitimate_Bastard, Robert failed as a brother, father, husband, and king.   He was responsibile for keeping the land just and safe. And he did neither.

 

Edited by argonak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/13/2018 at 10:38 AM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

You are right - I failed to mention how he bankrupted the realm, I didn't think it pertinent to the parenting issue. But I thought "always drunk and whoring" was a pretty decent description of a man who has 16 bastards, was too fat for his armor and died as a result of his alcoholism.

I think that ignores how negligent Robert was even when he was present & sober. It's not that he had no time in which it was possible for him to exercise any responsibility because his extracurricular activities took up all that (although Robert himself might have preferred it that way), it's that he wasn't going to do any hard work himself, particularly if that would just cause him more annoyances. He's aware that Joffrey is bad news, and his reaction was once to hit him so hard as to knock out some baby teeth. Cersei then told him she'd kill him in his sleep if he did that again, after which Robert just seems to give up and hope Joffrey will turn out completely different when he's older (though fear of how bad a king Joffrey would be is the only thing he claims is holding him back from resigning his kingship to be a sellsword). Robert could have insisted on continuing to discipline Joffrey over Cersei's objections (though that's not a guarantee that he would turn out better), but he just doesn't feel like dealing with Cersei (which is why she gets her way regarding Sansa's direwolf and Mya Stone). He could have tried fostering Joffrey somewhere else, but Lysa is one indication of how a mother can react to that, and he might not have even thought that far ahead. Perhaps Jon Arryn should have suggested it, but he had a lot on his plate without managing Robert's family for him. Also, just as GRRM had the Great Houses from the Rebellion unusually intermarried, he also had an unusually low amount of fostering in their next generation. Having Joffrey (or any of the Stark kids) visiting from their foster home might have been needless complication for the first book.

Also, Robert didn't bankrupt the realm. Littlefinger has just made the finances impenetrable to anyone but himself. Robert lacks the ambition to spend an amount comparable to the crown's annual income.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert couldn’t discipline him because the only way he knew how was with his fist and Cersei wouldn’t allow it, beyond that he was to busy being Robert to make an effort as a father.

Cersei is just Cersei, pretty much sums it up.

Everyone else either didn’t have the authority, the strength, or the desire to try and improve him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He had bad parents and was given a massive bodyguard in the shape of the hound to indulge his cruel whims. Nobody was going to openly chastise him. Except Tyrion. Robert wanted nothing to do with the boy, clearly. Robert was a man's man, Joff not so much. And the one time Robert did discipline him, he went way too far and won the scorn of Cersei. And Cersei herself is quite a chauvinist. I can't see her chastising her son openly in-front of non-family members and least of all the realm. It's a bit of a perfect storm that George has created where-by Joff is on a course to be a cruel and selfish king. Let's also not forget that Joff becoming a terrible king fitted the machinations of the conspirators around him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main problem is cersei didnt allow robert to dicipline him partly  as she knew he wssnt joffs father so seeing the husband she dislikee hitting her son prob didnt sit well

That and cerseis own posionous influence!  she is obsessed with ensuring joff doesnt end up in a golden shroud so overprotects him and as we see in her pov she is just  awful at the game of thrones in general! Her terrible character traits rub off on him

 

Another lesser factor we see is that under robert joff trained at arms as a young man should to help 'drain the posion'so to speak ,cersei forbids that with her kids so the result is hes all full of a teens ups and down moods (one whos a  semi to full blown sociopath in this case) with no outlet for all those hormones!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

[Cersei] is obsessed with ensuring joff doesnt end up in a golden shroud so overprotects him

This is a good catch! Like so many examples where people are obsessed with prophesies, their own actions are what cause the prophesies to come to pass. Had Cersei raised Joffrey better, maybe by fostering him out, had she insisted Robert assume at the very least his parental responsibilities, had Jaime taken the kid in hand, which as Joffrey's uncle he was certainly entitled to do and there need not have been any admissions of parentage, then Joffrey might have grown up and been raised to become a decent and responsible king, and when Robert finally dropped dead of a heart attack/stroke at the age of 40, assumed the Iron Throne as a young man.

But, as we've seen and detailed, Joffrey was raised as the boy Cersei wished she was, learning nothing of the responsibilities of lord (or king), and allowed/encouraged to indulge his worst fantasies. When raised to the Throne as a child, he was then given full responsibility and indulgence. It was no wonder somebody finally killed him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, zandru said:

This is a good catch! Like so many examples where people are obsessed with prophesies, their own actions are what cause the prophesies to come to pass. Had Cersei raised Joffrey better, maybe by fostering him out, had she insisted Robert assume at the very least his parental responsibilities, had Jaime taken the kid in hand, which as Joffrey's uncle he was certainly entitled to do and there need not have been any admissions of parentage, then Joffrey might have grown up and been raised to become a decent and responsible king, and when Robert finally dropped dead of a heart attack/stroke at the age of 40, assumed the Iron Throne as a young man.

But, as we've seen and detailed, Joffrey was raised as the boy Cersei wished she was, learning nothing of the responsibilities of lord (or king), and allowed/encouraged to indulge his worst fantasies. When raised to the Throne as a child, he was then given full responsibility and indulgence. It was no wonder somebody finally killed him.

Could have had Jaime assume a more paternal role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, zandru said:

But, as we've seen and detailed, Joffrey was raised as the boy Cersei wished she was, learning nothing of the responsibilities of lord (or king), and allowed/encouraged to indulge his worst fantasies. When raised to the Throne as a child, he was then given full responsibility and indulgence. It was no wonder somebody finally killed him.

 

11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Could have had Jaime assume a more paternal role.

If Cersei had had any sense at all (which she didn't because she was paranoid and overly protective because of the prophecy) she would have sent Joff home at around age seven to be trained on how to be a proper knight and king from Tywin, who had more than enough influence over Joff to cower him into behaving even at his pre-teenaged worst. Joff was practically begging for a strong male figure in his life that paid him some proper attention and after a few months at Casterly Rock he would've barley missed his "father".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Trefayne said:

... she would have sent Joff home at around age seven to be trained on how to be a proper knight and king from Tywin, who had more than enough influence over Joff to cower him into behaving even at his pre-teenaged worst. Joff was practically begging for a strong male figure in his life that paid him some proper attention

I agree. Given Robert's indifference to anything other than what his cock was going into and what wine and food was going into him, even Uncle Jaime, knight of the King's Guard, would have been a better influence than the Hound, Joff's only regular male companion (as far as we've seen). Although Clegane's loyalty was to Cersei and he apparently kept her updated on Joffrey's activities, he was also subservient to that child and seemed to have limited influence on him. Meanwhile, Clegane served as the potential bully behind Joffrey's struttings, posturings, and insults, inflating Joffrey's self importance.

Compare this with Daenerys, who constantly reflects on her duty to her people and second-guesses her own decisions, pondering if she could have done better. And Dany was raised by the oft-maligned Viserys!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, zandru said:

I agree. Given Robert's indifference to anything other than what his cock was going into and what wine and food was going into him, even Uncle Jaime, knight of the King's Guard, would have been a better influence than the Hound, Joff's only regular male companion (as far as we've seen). Although Clegane's loyalty was to Cersei and he apparently kept her updated on Joffrey's activities, he was also subservient to that child and seemed to have limited influence on him. Meanwhile, Clegane served as the potential bully behind Joffrey's struttings, posturings, and insults, inflating Joffrey's self importance.

Compare this with Daenerys, who constantly reflects on her duty to her people and second-guesses her own decisions, pondering if she could have done better. And Dany was raised by the oft-maligned Viserys!

Yes, Cersei went out of her way to give Joff a role model that was the very antithesis of knighthood and regal bearing. Part of it was her delusion that she is Tywin in a dress and that she could do a better job of preparing Joff for the throne than any man, especially Robert (she may have had a point on that count).

The other part was Cersei's general resentment of men and the power they wield just because of their gender. She uses men to make her feel powerful (Jaimie, Lancel, Gregor, the Kettleblacks, Qyburn etc.) and places the Hound as an extension of herself since he is formidable, yet unambitious, and has the savagery that Cersei believes is necessary to survive in the world.

I believe Dany got the much same education as Griff did with tutors provided by Illyrio Mopatis, so I doubt Viseys taught her anything useful. Dany always seemed to be searching for a role model that wasn't Viserys. She was a bit enamored with Rhaegar until Ser Barristan explained that he probably wouldn't have been a very good king either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

I believe Dany got the much same education as Griff did with tutors provided by Illyrio Mopatis, so I doubt Viseys taught her anything useful. Dany always seemed to be searching for a role model that wasn't Viserys.

Very likely. It seems to me that the Cheesemonger and Spider didn't want to put all their eggs into one basket, and had two Targaryen tracks - three, if you count Dany and Viserys separately. It's interesting that they were trying to get Tyrion just to "Griff", but Dany got Barristan the Old. But that's another thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would it have worked? I get the sense that Joffrey would have been a cruel little shit regardless of his upbringing - he might have just been better at hiding had he been disciplined.

On 9/15/2018 at 1:04 AM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

You are also right, drinking and whoring do not make someone a poor ruler. 

In Robert's case it does, because it's an indication of his no-responsibilities lifestyle.

Edited by Hodor the Articulate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Would it have worked? I get the sense that Joffrey would have been a cruel little shit regardless of his upbringing - he might have just been better at hiding had he been disciplined.

Perhaps. I think Joff wanted to be checked like any child pushing the boundaries. The fault was with the "adults" around him either ignoring or indulging him.

Even though the Cersei in him may have come to the surface from time to time, the realm probably would have benefited from a ersatz Tywin on the IT in the long run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Would it have worked? I get the sense that Joffrey would have been a cruel little shit regardless of his upbringing - he might have just been better at hiding had he been disciplined.

So was it genetics? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×