Riverlands house and military

[History]

What the military power of riverlands houses  which is the weakest and the strongest?

[Canon Claude]

Freys are the strongest with 4,000, that’s about all we know for sure. I’d say the Blackwoods and Brackens must be tied for second place, followed by the Pipers, Vances, and Mallisters. The Darrys used to be bigger deals, but they lost a lot of land after Robert’s Rebellion, so they’re probably on the level of Mooton and Smallwood now.

[Universal Sword Donor]

20 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Freys are the strongest with 4,000, that’s about all we know for sure. I’d say the Blackwoods and Brackens must be tied for second place, followed by the Pipers, Vances, and Mallisters. The Darrys used to be bigger deals, but they lost a lot of land after Robert’s Rebellion, so they’re probably on the level of Mooton and Smallwood now.

Well we know that the Freys were the strongest bannerman. We don't know if they were stronger than the Tullys.

As to the weakest lords, I'd assume it would be someone like the Charltons who are sworn to another lordly house, but it's a complete toss up imo.

[Canon Claude]

There’s really no mention of Tully forces beyond their bannermen. Same with the direct Stark soldiers (unless you count the two hundred or so guards of Winterfell) or frankly any other great house. I think the point is that their strength lies purely in the loyalty of their bannermen.

[honorable men]

The problem with the Riverlands is not because it doesnt have natural defenses as everyone says, its because they have always lacked a strong marshal to pull them together despite their internal conflicts throughout their known history. It was always a area full of petty kings until outside invasions and occupations and annexations...

[Free Northman Reborn]

The problem with all regions outside of the North is that we don’t have clear indications of the geographical areas ruled by the various lords. In the North by contrast we can make a fair comparison on how much land the Umbers rule compared to the Karatarks, Boltons, Ryswells etc. We can also roughly compare geographical features such as latitude etc.

While far from perfect, it does give us at least some basis for comparison. In the Riverlands by contrast, we can’t even see the lands of two of the most prominent Houses -the  Blackwoods and Brackens.

The same goes for most southron lords, other than perhaps the Hightowers and a few others.

[The_Eagle_Lord19]

Each of the great houses obviously have to be at least as strong as the strongest house in its perspective realm. If it wasn't than it never would have become the great house of that kingdom. 

Use the Starks as a example. How could they have possibly conquered the north in the first place without it's own army. They beat down all the other house. Also the Starks have some of the prime lands in the north with one of the key towns. 

The riverlands are tricky. It's said that the Frey's are the Tully's strongest Bannerman. 4k men are a lot of men for a riverlands house to summon and in this case it may actually be stronger than the great House but the Tully's never had to conquer the riverlands. They were made the lord paramount by the iron throne. This being the case I still think that the Tully's can field if not the same or more men than pretty close to it that it may not matter. Also the Tully's may have a really good advantage in the type of men they have. Better archers, armored horse, better trained and equipped men at arms, or anything. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, The_Eagle_Lord19 said:

Each of the great houses obviously have to be at least as strong as the strongest house in its perspective realm. If it wasn't than it never would have become the great house of that kingdom. 

Use the Starks as a example. How could they have possibly conquered the north in the first place without it's own army. They beat down all the other house. Also the Starks have some of the prime lands in the north with one of the key towns. 

The riverlands are tricky. It's said that the Frey's are the Tully's strongest Bannerman. 4k men are a lot of men for a riverlands house to summon and in this case it may actually be stronger than the great House but the Tully's never had to conquer the riverlands. They were made the lord paramount by the iron throne. This being the case I still think that the Tully's can field if not the same or more men than pretty close to it that it may not matter. Also the Tully's may have a really good advantage in the type of men they have. Better archers, armored horse, better trained and equipped men at arms, or anything. 

I guarantee you that the Tyrells on their own are weaker than the Hightowers and that the Starks are weaker than the Manderlys. Similarly the Tullys are likely weaker than the Freys and the Arryns than the Royces.

It doesn’t matter, because your vassal’s men are yours to command.

As to how it came about? Take the Starks. They could have directly ruled the Wolf’s Den, Karhold, Bear Island etc but they gave these castles to the current owners.

Similarly they took Deepwood, Barrowton, the Rills, even the Dreadfort and the Neck by conquest, but allowed the former owners to continue ruling these areas. They need not have done that. They chose to do so.

It is different for the Tullys who never conquered the Riverlands but were given it by Aegon Targaryen.

[hodorisfaclessman]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I guarantee you that the Tyrells on their own are weaker than the Hightowers and that the Starks are weaker than the Manderlys. Similarly the Tullys are likely weaker than the Freys and the Arryns than the Royces.

It doesn’t matter, because your vassal’s men are yours to command.

As to how it came about? Take the Starks. They could have directly ruled the Wolf’s Den, Karhold, Bear Island etc but they gave these castles to the current owners.

Similarly they took Deepwood, Barrowton, the Rills, even the Dreadfort and the Neck by conquest, but allowed the former owners to continue ruling these areas. They need not have done that. They chose to do so.

It is different for the Tullys who never conquered the Riverlands but were given it by Aegon Targaryen.

Id doubt the starks are weaker than the manderlys  they have dug out the owners of that area for rebellion a few times now before establishing the fleeing manderlys ,the starks have bled to control the north as have the lannisters ,arryns,baratheons   etc to control their respective areas ! 

The tullys and tyrells are exceptions who were handed their overlordship by others ,but that doesnt preclude the ides that they are now as at least as  powerful or on rough par  as any bannermen due to the lands and keeps they were handed!

The martells we are told specifaly were weaker than some others in dorne before nymeria joined them but they stilll achieved dominance of dorner with her 

[hodorisfaclessman]

3 hours ago, honorable men said:

The problem with the Riverlands is not because it doesnt have natural defenses as everyone says, its because they have always lacked a strong marshal to pull them together despite their internal conflicts throughout their known history. It was always a area full of petty kings until outside invasions and occupations and annexations...

Maybe  true 

One has to wonder how the wot5k woulda gone if the blackfish had have stayed at the trident with his brother and the  been given comand instead of edmure in hosters place when the war began

[Free Northman Reborn]

16 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Id doubt the starks are weaker than the manderlys  they have dug out the owners of that area for rebellion a few times now before establishing the fleeing manderlys ,the starks have bled to control the north as have the lannisters ,arryns,baratheons   etc to control their respective areas ! 

The tullys and tyrells are exceptions who were handed their overlordship by others ,but that doesnt preclude the ides that they are now as at least as  powerful or on rough par  as any bannermen due to the lands and keeps they were handed!

The martells we are told specifaly were weaker than some others in dorne before nymeria joined them but they stilll achieved dominance of dorner with her 

The Manderlys rule a city of tens of thousands of people in addition to controlling the trade up and down the White Knife. They rule the most populous part of the North.

Similarly the Hightowers would have had a greater population than the direct lands of the Gardeners in the past. That does not make the Gardeners weaker than the Hightowers, because the Gardeners have all the Reach to call on if they muster their full strength.

Same applies to the Starks and Manderlys.

[hodorisfaclessman]

32 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Manderlys rule a city of tens of thousands of people in addition to controlling the trade up and down the White Knife. They rule the most populous part of the North.

Similarly the Hightowers would have had a greater population than the direct lands of the Gardeners in the past. That does not make the Gardeners weaker than the Hightowers, because the Gardeners have all the Reach to call on if they muster their full strength.

Same applies to the Starks and Manderlys.

They do but the population of that city isnt subject to them with any obligations of military service,  it will provide wealth and volunteers though making it very strong

The starks even before they won overlordship of the north  were powerful too dont forget with many sworn lords and 'knights'  ,they will be able to raise at least as many forces as the boltons or more ,they held the norths strongest holdfast and most importanly no one wants war with them in winter...their unique holdfast means they arent as badly touched by the norths intense winters. (May be key to why they became kings in the north)  Plus the warm winter town means many of the minor lords stannis recruits feel obliged to winterfell adding another 3k of potential killers to their ranks on top of their blood ties to the karstarks and the mormonts owing them their island.

 

No for all the power the white harbour  brings etc  theres a reason former rebellions with lords there were broken and why winterfell not white harbour emerged as lords of the north long before the maderlys moved up

 

The hightowers are one of the richest familes and have oldtown to add to their coffers and recruit from ...but we have 0 idea how large the gardner /tyrell land holdings are ,we know highgarden is formidable but not thought of often as one of the toughest holds to break into . The land holdings surrounding it however are probably lush and large allowing a large force of minor lordlings and their foot and knights to be raised from it ...id say the tyrell forces alone could be on a rough par with most of their bannermen!

[Loose Bolt]

Actually any house controlling Harrenhall should be major player. At least one major town Harrentown, very fertile land, direct access to major lake, so they could have massive fishing fleet, they could control trade of Trident and collect custom revenues of that trade (naturally assuming that their superiors would allow that) and finally they are very close to largest city of Westeros. Or that area would have huge potential for trade. 

In fact many masters of HH had been major players in the game of thrones and also payed the price with lives of theirs and their families.

[Baelor 'Breakspear']

Weaker ones is hard to guess as they are many non named landed knights . Stronger I'd say Tully's (Riverrun is difficult to conquer as a bonus) or Frey's. 

[Bernie Mac]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 9:45 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well we know that the Freys were the strongest bannerman. We don't know if they were stronger than the Tullys.

 

IIRC in Fire and Blood it is mentioned during the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons that the Blackwoods, Brackens, Freys and Vances were all more powerful than the Tullys. Obviously that may have changed in the last 150 years.

 

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 9:23 PM, Canon Claude said:

Freys are the strongest with 4,000, that’s about all we know for sure. I’d say the Blackwoods and Brackens must be tied for second place, followed by the Pipers, Vances, and Mallisters. The Darrys used to be bigger deals, but they lost a lot of land after Robert’s Rebellion, so they’re probably on the level of Mooton and Smallwood now.

I'd put Vances ahead of the Blackwoods and Brackens as they and the Freys are the only Houses with a Lordly vassal (Charlton and Smallwood).

[Adam Yozza]

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

IIRC in Fire and Blood it is mentioned during the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons that the Blackwoods, Brackens, Freys and Vances were all more powerful than the Tullys. Obviously that may have changed in the last 150 years.

 

I'd put Vances ahead of the Blackwoods and Brackens as they and the Freys are the only Houses with a Lordly vassal (Charlton and Smallwood).

That we know of. Besides that I agree with the rest of what you said. Wasn't Darry and Mooton also mentioned as being able to raise more stength than Tully? Although for those two houses that strength would have massively decreased after RR

[Adam Yozza]

4k men is a lot for one house so I'd be fairly willing to bet on Frey being the strongest Riverlands house. As to weakest probably someone like Haigh or Charlton or some other noble house vassal/landed knight.

[KingMudd]

On 9/15/2018 at 4:53 PM, Loose Bolt said:

Actually any house controlling Harrenhall should be major player. At least one major town Harrentown, very fertile land, direct access to major lake, so they could have massive fishing fleet, they could control trade of Trident and collect custom revenues of that trade (naturally assuming that their superiors would allow that) and finally they are very close to largest city of Westeros. Or that area would have huge potential for trade. 

In fact many masters of HH had been major players in the game of thrones and also payed the price with lives of theirs and their families.

I was always under the impression that Harrenhal is so big that it's actually a burden to the current lord. If the Riverlands could find a very rich family to take on Harrenhal, restore it and use it to its fullest potential it would probably rival Kings Landing.

[Bernie Mac]

46 minutes ago, KingMudd said:

I was always under the impression that Harrenhal is so big that it's actually a burden to the current lord. If the Riverlands could find a very rich family to take on Harrenhal, restore it and use it to its fullest potential it would probably rival Kings Landing.

I'd guess its more of a white elephant. The Harrenhal lands of Qorgyle are not the lands of House Whent. Quite a few times as the House changed hands it was stripped of its lands by the Crown meaning less income for the Lord of Harrenhal.

So a rich noble could take it, like Littlefinger, but restoring and maintaining it to its former glory is probably not sustainable on the lands that Harrenhal rules.

[Hugorfonics]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'd guess its more of a white elephant. The Harrenhal lands of Qorgyle are not the lands of House Whent. Quite a few times as the House changed hands it was stripped of its lands by the Crown meaning less income for the Lord of Harrenhal.

So a rich noble could take it, like Littlefinger, but restoring and maintaining it to its former glory is probably not sustainable on the lands that Harrenhal rules.

The lands Harrenhal rules is the Riverlands. If Tully rivals its bannermen in power then theres no reason Harrenhal wont do the same. After all, during the glory days of Harrenhal she ruled over the Riverlands