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Riverlands house and military


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26 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The lands Harrenhal rules is the Riverlands. If Tully rivals its bannermen in power then theres no reason Harrenhal wont do the same. After all, during the glory days of Harrenhal she ruled over the Riverlands

Harrenhal had no glory days. It was finished right before Aegon showed up in Westeros to begin his conquest. 

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12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The lands Harrenhal rules is the Riverlands. If Tully rivals its bannermen in power then theres no reason Harrenhal wont do the same. After all, during the glory days of Harrenhal she ruled over the Riverlands

As usual man I have no idea what junction you are following. You are either a genius and I can't get on your level or a master contrarian, either way I'm in awe.

 

The Qorgyles had an amount of land they were given the land the  Whents had was much smaller as on various times the Hanrrnahlal lands was awarded to a new Lord those lands were reduced____ the excess fat given to others by the Crown.

 

 

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On 9/15/2018 at 4:28 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

The problem with all regions outside of the North is that we don’t have clear indications of the geographical areas ruled by the various lords. In the North by contrast we can make a fair comparison on how much land the Umbers rule compared to the Karatarks, Boltons, Ryswells etc. We can also roughly compare geographical features such as latitude etc.

While far from perfect, it does give us at least some basis for comparison. In the Riverlands by contrast, we can’t even see the lands of two of the most prominent Houses -the  Blackwoods and Brackens.

The same goes for most southron lords, other than perhaps the Hightowers and a few others.

Right. Even after losing much of their lands Darrys whose seat is near Trident and Harrenhal have lands on Redfork.

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9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Right. Even after losing much of their lands Darrys whose seat is near Trident and Harrenhal have lands on Redfork.

 

@Bernie Mac

True, but even now it’s lands are rich and it’s considered a great prize when after Blackwater people are awarded, though Brightwater is named “the ripest fruit”.

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13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

As usual man I have no idea what junction you are following. You are either a genius and I can't get on your level or a master contrarian, either way I'm in awe.

:D

Why cant it be both?

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Qorgyles had an amount of land they were given the land the  Whents had was much smaller as on various times the Hanrrnahlal lands was awarded to a new Lord those lands were reduced____ the excess fat given to others by the Crown.

Sure, but Harrenhal used to own mad land, so even after being trimmed for centuries it remains the seat of kings.

(

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

@Bernie Mac

True, but even now it’s lands are rich and it’s considered a great prize when after Blackwater people are awarded, though Brightwater is named “the ripest fruit”.

Ripest fruit, richest plum lol )

Quote

It was interesting to watch his face. Lord Petyr's father had been the smallest of small lords, his grandfather a landless hedge knight; by birth, he held no more than a few stony acres on the windswept shore of the Fingers. Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile, its great castle as formidable as any in the realm . . . and so large as to dwarf Riverrun, where Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster's daughter.

Littlefinger took a moment to adjust the drape of his cape, but Tyrion had seen the flash of hunger in those sly cat's eyes. I have him, he knew. "Harrenhal is cursed," Lord Petyr said after a moment, trying to sound bored

Though that wasnt even my main point. I assume Tully taxed its constituents, like Reed is taxed by Stark, so now that Baelish is the big whig in town I see it potentially having the resources to fully garrison its castle.

It also helps that just like Harren, Petyr has two kingdoms to facilitate

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Honestly I do not think the Tully's have less men than any of their bannermen.

 

With that said, I do not think that they enjoy the distinct advantage in power over their bannermen that the other LPS do. Perhaps they are equal to that of their strongest bannermen. I believe this has to do more with family history/prestige. 

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7 hours ago, nyser1 said:

Honestly I do not think the Tully's have less men than any of their bannermen.

 

With that said, I do not think that they enjoy the distinct advantage in power over their bannermen that the other LPS do. Perhaps they are equal to that of their strongest bannermen. I believe this has to do more with family history/prestige. 

So how does this work? Who would be Tully men and who would be men sworn to a vassal?

Take any random House in the Riverlands. How would you define if its soldiers are Tully soldiers or the soldiers of another House?

I am interested because no one has been able to answer this question in a consistent way as yet, in many incarnations of this discussion.

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10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So how does this work? Who would be Tully men and who would be men sworn to a vassal?

Take any random House in the Riverlands. How would you define if its soldiers are Tully soldiers or the soldiers of another House?

I am interested because no one has been able to answer this question in a consistent way as yet, in many incarnations of this discussion.

Where do the soldiers come from? From the peasants who work the land, and from the household knights and retainers. Each house controls land, and that land is worked by the peasants. Those peasants are the soldiers of the lord who owns the land.

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11 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Where do the soldiers come from? From the peasants who work the land, and from the household knights and retainers. Each house controls land, and that land is worked by the peasants. Those peasants are the soldiers of the lord who owns the land.

Not answering the question though. Are you saying Tully soldiers are only those on lands directly ruled by House Tully, without any intermediate vassal lord? 

If so, then in the same way House Frey’s 4000 soldiers should be reduced to exclude all of the soldiers of vassal lords sworn to them.

And what about Landed Knights? Should their men also be excluded from the strength of the lord they are sworn to? That would reduce the strength of Houses Tully and Frey even further.

We may then end up with House Frey being able to raise only 500 men instead of the 4000 they raised in the War of the Five Kings.

So I ask again. How do you define the strength of House Tully?

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14 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So how does this work? Who would be Tully men and who would be men sworn to a vassal?

Take any random House in the Riverlands. How would you define if its soldiers are Tully soldiers or the soldiers of another House?

I am interested because no one has been able to answer this question in a consistent way as yet, in many incarnations of this discussion.

Their sigil. Theyre all "Tully" men, but only the trouts are actually Tully men. Here's an example but using Stark and the North 

Quote

The riders split and circled them for a look before they came up close. Clegane drew the wayn to a halt and waited patiently on their pleasure. The knight bore spear and sword while his squires carried longbows. The badges on their jerkins were smaller versions of the sigil sewn on their master's surcoat; a black pitchfork on a golden bar sinister, upon a russet field. Arya had thought of revealing herself to the first outriders they encountered, but she had always pictured grey-cloaked men with the direwolf on their breasts. She might have risked it even if they'd worn the Umber giant or the Glover fist, but she did not know this pitchfork knight or whom he served. The closest thing to a pitchfork she had ever seen at Winterfell was the trident in the hand of Lord Manderly's merman.

 

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not answering the question though. Are you saying Tully soldiers are only those on lands directly ruled by House Tully, without any intermediate vassal lord? 

I think so, yes

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not answering the question though. Are you saying Tully soldiers are only those on lands directly ruled by House Tully, without any intermediate vassal lord? 

If so, then in the same way House Frey’s 4000 soldiers should be reduced to exclude all of the soldiers of vassal lords sworn to them.

And what about Landed Knights? Should their men also be excluded from the strength of the lord they are sworn to? That would reduce the strength of Houses Tully and Frey even further.

We may then end up with House Frey being able to raise only 500 men instead of the 4000 they raised in the War of the Five Kings.

So I ask again. How do you define the strength of House Tully?

Look at their clothing. If its Tully then so are their swords armor and allegiance

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6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Their sigil. Theyre all "Tully" men, but only the trouts are actually Tully men. Here's an example but using Stark and the North 

 

I think so, yes

Look at their clothing. If its Tully then so are their swords armor and allegiance

Is that the case, though? George says that when the Karstarks raised their 2300 men to join Robb that consisted of the Karstarks’ vassals and the vassals of the vassals down to the guy who could raise 5 friends. The whole 2300 were described as “the Karstarks arriving at Winterfell”, but in truth it was an amalgamation of dozens of vassal lords and Masterly Houses sworn to House Karstark and sworn to House Karstarks vassals, each with their own army.

And yet, they are repeatedly referred to simply as  “the Karstarks”, throughout the campaign. And when the Karstarks abandon Robb, they all leave.

So again, how do you define the strength of House Karstark in this context?

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2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Is that the case, though?

That's my understanding

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

George says that when the Karstarks raised their 2300 men to join Robb that consisted of the Karstarks’ vassals and the vassals of the vassals down to the guy who could raise 5 friends. The whole 2300 were described as “the Karstarks arriving at Winterfell”, but in truth it was an amalgamation of dozens of vassal lords and Masterly Houses sworn to House Karstark and sworn to House Karstarks vassals, each with their own army.

Citation please?

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So again, how do you define the strength of House Karstark in this context?

If they've got the white sun theyre Kars, if not, theyre not.

 

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