How was Tywin’s going to handle the “Joff Problem”

[Lollygag]

He knew that someone gave her and Viserys a Dothraki army hence someone backing her rise may well see that she gets another one (she doesn't really have an army during her time in Qarth). And if someone's watching her, it would be hard to miss her dragons. Lannisport is a port town and that's how info travels. Qarth is also a port city.

It's debatable about what exactly Tywin does know and doesn't know and then how seriously he takes this, but it doesn't pass the logic test or the character test that he isn't keeping an eye on her. @Stormking902 speculation sounds solid to me.

Here we have Dany going about Qarth's port advertising herself and one is familiar enough with Tywin to make a reference about him shitting gold.

ACOK Daenerys V

But neither her beauty nor his size and strength would serve with the men whose ships they needed.

"You require passage for a hundred Dothraki, all their horses, yourself and this knight, and three dragons?" said the captain of the great cog Ardent Friend before he walked away laughing. When she told a Lyseni on the Trumpeteer that she was Daenerys Stormborn, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, he gave her a deadface look and said, "Aye, and I'm Lord Tywin Lannister and shit gold every night." The cargomaster of the Myrish galley Silken Spirit opined that dragons were too dangerous at sea, where any stray breath of flame might set the rigging afire. The owner of Lord Faro's Belly would risk dragons, but not Dothraki. "I'll have no such godless savages in my Belly, I'll not." The two brothers who captained the sister ships Quicksilver and Greyhound seemed sympathetic and invited them into the cabin for a glass of Arbor red. They were so courteous that Dany was hopeful for a time, but in the end the price they asked was far beyond her means, and might have been beyond Xaro's. Pinchbottom Petto and Sloe-Eyed Maid were too small for her needs, Bravo was bound for the Jade Sea, and Magister Manolo scarce looked seaworthy.

 

[zandru]

Seriously. We know that Joffrey's poisoning was caused by complicity between Littlefinger and Lady Olenna Tyrell. Period. It's a painfully long stretch to involve Tywin Lannister in it. I notice there have been few references to Littlefinger, the dude who set up Sansa to escape, set up Sansa with the strangler hairnet, and who spirited her away after the dirty deed was done. Had Tywin been involved, he'd have known all that, too. But we have zero indication that this was the case.

Tywin Lannister is rich and powerful; as Hand to Aerys Targaryen, he'd arranged agreements with the Iron Bank in Braavos; he trades worldwide. No conspiracy theory is needed to explain why ship captains recognize his name.

[Lollygag]

19 minutes ago, zandru said:

Seriously. We know that Joffrey's poisoning was caused by complicity between Littlefinger and Lady Olenna Tyrell. Period. It's a painfully long stretch to involve Tywin Lannister in it. I notice there have been few references to Littlefinger, the dude who set up Sansa to escape, set up Sansa with the strangler hairnet, and who spirited her away after the dirty deed was done. Had Tywin been involved, he'd have known all that, too. But we have zero indication that this was the case.

Tywin Lannister is rich and powerful; as Hand to Aerys Targaryen, he'd arranged agreements with the Iron Bank in Braavos; he trades worldwide. No conspiracy theory is needed to explain why ship captains recognize his name.

The bolded and Tywin being involved aren't mutually exclusive. I think both are true. GRRM often only gives us part of the story.

Tywin didn't want the Tyrells to have Sansa and if Tyrion is to die, she goes back on the market again. Makes sense that Tywin was part of the plan to get Sansa away from the Tyrells. Twyin was fine with LF leaving before the PW.

As to the mention of Tywin in Qarth- it's a book and not a real-life coincidence. The author made a conscious choice to mention Tywin and it can't be treated in the same fashion as a conversation we'd encounter in real life. And also around this, we have Lannisport mentioned so it's not the only Lannister reference placed here. So he made multiple conscious mentions. Same chapter:

"I saw you fight a time or two. At Lannisport where you near unhorsed the Kingslayer. And on Pyke, there as well. You do not recall, Lord Mormont?"

Ser Jorah frowned. "Your face seems familiar, but there were hundreds at Lannisport and thousands on Pyke. And I am no lord. Bear Island was taken from me. I am but a knight."

"A knight of my Queensguard." Dany took his arm. "And my true friend and good counselor." She studied Arstan's face. He had a great dignity to him, a quiet strength she liked. "Rise, Arstan Whitebeard. Be welcome, Strong Belwas. Ser Jorah you know. Ko Aggo and Ko Jhogo are blood of my blood. They crossed the red waste with me, and saw my dragons born."

And no, it's not a long stretch at all. Tywin had a big problem with Joff especially as he gains power as he ages while simultaneously growing more rebellious. The Tyrells had a problem with him and Tywin wanted the Tyrells. Tywin has also tried to see Tyrion dead. It's there in the text. 

 

[zandru]

3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The bolded and Tywin being involved aren't mutually exclusive

 

3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

And also around this, we have Lannisport mentioned so it's not the only Lannister reference placed here.

Meh. I think you're making something out of nothing, to the point that I don't care to sweat the details. However, I await the next book (have faith!) to find out the truth.

I do think that Tywin wasn't terribly cut up about losing Mad Joffrey, but would definitely have been worried about the possibility of further threats to "his" grandchildren in line for the Iron Throne. Did Tywin know Cersei's three golden-haired brats had zero Baratheon lineage? Doesn't matter, so long as he could keep up the public belief that they were true born Baratheons. The kids, bastards or abominations may they have been, were the Lannister foot on the stairs to the Iron Throne.

[Lollygag]

Just now, zandru said:

 

Meh. I think you're making something out of nothing, to the point that I don't care to sweat the details. However, I await the next book (have faith!) to find out the truth.

I do think that Tywin wasn't terribly cut up about losing Mad Joffrey, but would definitely have been worried about the possibility of further threats to "his" grandchildren in line for the Iron Throne. Did Tywin know Cersei's three golden-haired brats had zero Baratheon lineage? Doesn't matter, so long as he could keep up the public belief that they were true born Baratheons. The kids, bastards or abominations may they have been, were the Lannister foot on the stairs to the Iron Throne.

Plots within plots within plots is kinda what the books are about, no? There's a reason they take so bloody long to write. As such, that's how I enjoy reading them.

I'm not following why you mentioned the part about the kids having no Baratheon blood but I agree, I think.

[zandru]

9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not following why you mentioned the part about the kids having no Baratheon blood but I agree, I think.

I could have written that better... I have assumed, and it's the simpler explanation, that Tywin wasn't involved in the assassination. That Joff was so easily assassinated, in a public place, and at his own wedding, could mean there was an external threat that Tywin hadn't anticipated and hadn't prepared for. This would have been a major worry since he had just the one grandson left to claim the throne, and uncovering the responsible parties was thus imperative. Not for Joffrey's sake, of course; the kid was a total loss, anyway. It was the Lannister claim to the Valyrian Throne of the Targaryens that Tywin wanted.

I have seen no indication that Tywin suspected Baelish's involvement. The Red Viper was a much better suspect, as was Tyrion. We can imagine that, up until his death, Tywin was investigting Oberon Martell, and just maybe the Tyrells. But not Littlefinger.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

23 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Let’s say neither character dies in this scenario: How was Tywin going to “tame” the King. The small consul meeting when they received news of the Red Wedding is the moment I believe Tywin first fully realized how shity of a job Cersei has done with this kid. He speaks to Tyrion of a “sharp lesson.” What would that have been?

Interesting , Though I doubt Tywin would kill Joff , But before he reach the age of majority , Joffrey would be given a glass of dreamwine , then he would be in the lowest cell in the Red Keep .

[zandru]

1 minute ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

nteresting , Though I doubt Tywin would kill Joff , But before he reach the age of majority , Joffrey would be given a glass of dreamwine , then he would be in the lowest cell in the Red Keep .

I think the old "hunting accident" would be preferrable. That would get rid of the kid permantly, in a totally believeable way. Why would Tywin keep Joffrey in a cell, from which he might one day be released. But I'm also confused by what Tywin meant by "a sharp lesson" to Joffrey. It couldn't be a physical beating; Cersei has undoubtedly banned that sort of thing long before Joffers was named "King". Some poor whipping boy would have to suffer, as Joffrey looked on, probably with approval and delight.

Maybe Tywin meant something along the lines of Joffrey being told by the Small Council "Hey, you're still a kid. Nobody's going to do anything you ask, unless you run it by Lord Hand Tywin first, and he gives the order. We've informed everyone of this new policy. You are NOT the King. The regent -- your grandfather -- is the king. And you're not going to ever get to command like a king until you learn how to act like one."

This would only work if Cersei were gone.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

19 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Tywin should be very careful with how to deal with it. Joffrey would be 16 soon, and if Tywin dared to teach him a lesson just a tenth as cruel as the one he taught Tyrion, he would be finding his own head on a pike.

This was one of the main things I was considering when I wrote the OP. I understand the King is the King and all, but would Tywin loose complete control as soon as Joff comes of age? Tywin’s power might stretch beyond even the highest of titles (to some extent at least).

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Just reminding. Tywin couldn't handle Tyrion problem.

[Sigella]

On 9/15/2018 at 5:44 AM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Let’s say neither character dies in this scenario: How was Tywin going to “tame” the King. The small consul meeting when they received news of the Red Wedding is the moment I believe Tywin first fully realized how shity of a job Cersei has done with this kid. He speaks to Tyrion of a “sharp lesson.” What would that have been?

Producing a new King fJoff while throwing rJoff in a black cell and throw away the key. I.e make everyone pretend some Lannisport-cousin with good potential is Joff. Nobody would mind except Cersei and she could be allowed visits with rJoff to comply with the ruse.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 9/14/2018 at 11:44 PM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Let’s say neither character dies in this scenario: How was Tywin going to “tame” the King. The small consul meeting when they received news of the Red Wedding is the moment I believe Tywin first fully realized how shity of a job Cersei has done with this kid. He speaks to Tyrion of a “sharp lesson.” What would that have been?

He meant making Joffrey more open to his council's suggestions.  Sort of like Roose telling Ramsay to be more discreet.  It doesn't mean he was going to turn Joffrey into a compassionate human being.  Tywin himself is not that.  It doesn't mean he can no longer beat Sansa.  It means he should do this behind closed doors.  

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, whose actually going to stop him from giving a sharp lesson? The only person who'd any legal authority to punish  would be the regent who is his very own daughter who still fears him. 

He needn't make it public something that physically hurts Joffrey that at least gives  the impression Tywin is willing to kill his grandson.

Tywin's problem here isn't political, it's practical.

Tyrion's sharp lesson came in the form of torture for someone he cared about. Joffrey cares for no one, save perhaps his mother. Tywin can't very well have Cersei beaten, nor can he do the same to Joffrey. And neither lesson would likely improve Joffrey's behavior anyway -- in fact, it would probably drive an even bigger wedge between Tywin and Joff.

So Tywin's frustration doesn't come from an inability to act. It comes from not having a viable option that will result in an improved Joffrey.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So Tywin's frustration doesn't come from an inability to act. It comes from not having a viable option that will result in an improved Joffrey.

I definitely agree with you but I think his frustration in that particular moment (a king should act boldly) is a lot of things hitting him at once. Namely how incompetent Cersei is. This is something he’s probably known for years but has been in denial about it. Similar to him thinking Jaime will be the heir to the Rock. It’s shortly after this we hear Tywin lay out his plans to marry Cersei off and get her away from Tommen. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 11:55 PM, zandru said:

I think the old "hunting accident" would be preferrable. That would get rid of the kid permantly, in a totally believeable way. Why would Tywin keep Joffrey in a cell, from which he might one day be released. But I'm also confused by what Tywin meant by "a sharp lesson" to Joffrey. It couldn't be a physical beating; Cersei has undoubtedly banned that sort of thing long before Joffers was named "King". Some poor whipping boy would have to suffer, as Joffrey looked on, probably with approval and delight.

Maybe Tywin meant something along the lines of Joffrey being told by the Small Council "Hey, you're still a kid. Nobody's going to do anything you ask, unless you run it by Lord Hand Tywin first, and he gives the order. We've informed everyone of this new policy. You are NOT the King. The regent -- your grandfather -- is the king. And you're not going to ever get to command like a king until you learn how to act like one."

This would only work if Cersei were gone.

What people may think of Tywin , I doubt that he would kill his own blood .

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

I definitely agree with you but I think his frustration in that particular moment (a king should act boldly) is a lot of things hitting him at once. Namely how incompetent Cersei is. This is something he’s probably known for years but has been in denial about it. Similar to him thinking Jaime will be the heir to the Rock. It’s shortly after this we hear Tywin lay out his plans to marry Cersei off and get her away from Tommen. 

Lol, love yer name, Foot of the King.

You're probably right. It's the realization that he cannot control everything no matter how powerful a lord he's become.

[Slaver's Dread]

When solving a whodunit it's best to look at who stands to gain the most. Sure Petyr and Olenna achieve certain goals, but Tywin gets everything he could have ever wanted until Tyrion calls for a trial by battle.

[Lollygag]

10 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

What people may think of Tywin , I doubt that he would kill his own blood .

I have a quote up thread where Tyrion calls out Tywin for staging his death in battle and Tywin doesn't deny it. It clearly wasn't the first time they had this conversation.

Adding...

Tywin has a well-established history of getting rid of inconvenient or troublesome family members.

ADWD Tyrion XII

Brown Ben chuckled. "Oh, all share. But not alike. The Second Sons are not unlike a family …"

"… and every family has its drooling cousins." Tyrion signed another note. The parchment crinkled crisply as he slid it toward the paymaster. "There are cells down in the bowels of Casterly Rock where my lord father kept the worst of ours." He dipped his quill in the inkpot. Tyrion of House Lannister, he scratched out, promising to pay the bearer of the note one hundred golden dragons. Every stroke of the quill leaves me a little poorer … or would, if I were not a beggar to begin with. One day he might rue these signatures. But not this day. He blew on the wet ink, slid the parchment to the paymaster, and signed the one beneath. And again. And again. And again. "This wounds me deeply, I will have you know," he told them between signatures. "In Westeros, the word of a Lannister is considered good as gold."

 

ADWD Tyrion III

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore." And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, "No man is free. Only children and fools think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning." At that the boy's defiance had crumbled. "If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have," his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I'd fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.