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How was Tywin’s going to handle the “Joff Problem”

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Let’s say neither character dies in this scenario: How was Tywin going to “tame” the King. The small consul meeting when they received news of the Red Wedding is the moment I believe Tywin first fully realized how shity of a job Cersei has done with this kid. He speaks to Tyrion of a “sharp lesson.” What would that have been?

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I don't think Tywin had time to come up with anything. Suspect it would be in the same vein as Tyrion/Tysha, the Reynes, the Red Wedding. Basically, something soul-crushing.

I’m more intrigued by “There is time yet" accompanied by Tywin's relatively extreme show of upset. It implies certain things if Tywin feels he’s run out of time to curtail Joff, either because Joff has grown enough to exert authority as king or because circumstances force Tywin to act before Joff could be straightened out. Two chapters later, Joff is dead and Tyrion is framed for his murder thus freeing Marg to marry the less bat-bleep-crazy Tommen. The Tyrells weren’t so big on Joff...

 

ASOS Tyrion VI

"It appears things needed to be said." Lord Tywin waved two fingers at her, a brusque dismissal. "Go."

She went, seething.

"Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third."

"The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson."

 

The sword seems important in what happened to Joff and the sword with lots of magical woo-woo stuff came from Tywin as he took Ice from Ilyn. Illyn is not seen with the sword again. When Jaime calls BS on Tywin for believing that Tyrion would be dumb enough to attempt to kill Joff with so many around, (we know Tywin doesn’t believe this of Tyrion either), Tywin gets *very* defensive at the suggestion of any woo-woo cause of death. He quickly changes the subject to one which will surely get Jaime off that line of thought.

ASOS Jaime VII

"That woman from Tarth is the reason I'm here. I tossed her into a cell to appease Ser Loras, but I'll believe in Renly's ghost before I believe she did him any harm. But Stannis—"

"It was poison that killed Joffrey, not sorcery." Lord Tywin glanced at Jaime's stump again. "You cannot serve in the Kingsguard without a sword hand—"

I think Tywin ran out of time. 

 

 

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I'd wager a profound whipping would be in order perhaps(nothing so bad it's lethal but at least gives the appearance of being lethal) or somethings that would put the fear of God in Joffery. Perhaps take the hound away from him to empathize his power.  In three years time Joffery would have assumed all the powers of King(pressumably), Tywin does need to make sure when he does become a legal adult to still be wary of misusing his powers-he could be a sadist, he can rape some servents and mutilate some people for fun, but he needs to practice temperance if he wants to be a competent ruler of the realm. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Tywin should be very careful with how to deal with it. Joffrey would be 16 soon, and if Tywin dared to teach him a lesson just a tenth as cruel as the one he taught Tyrion, he would be finding his own head on a pike.

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33 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Nothing, Joff would've impale him if he tried. 

The comment about Tywin hiding under the Rock was spot on. Bold and gold. Joff wasn't afraid of Tywin.

Joffery would whine and bitch but he'd recognize how powerless he really is at the moment. Remember he is still a minor. If Cersi doesn't command Tywin be punished(she would never), then he won't be.  There's a reason Joffery hasn't executed Tyrion for his crimes against him(physically assaulting him and threatening to mutilate the king-both things to which would typically earn a death sentence), it is because Tyrion has Tywin's backing.  If Joffery wasn't afraid of Tywin likely he wouldn't have capitulated to his grandfather's demand to basicly fuck off.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Joff wasn't afraid of Tywin.

He should be, as I'm sure Roose could tell him.

I'm pretty convinced that if Tywin ever decided that Joff was broken beyond repair everyone will be shouting 'Long live King Tommen' before bedtime

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Id say joff was in for a nasty lesson  look at what tyrion got

He would probably have compelled cersei to be part of it too as jamie had to with tyrion , plus joff hasnt been traininng much so hed prob have had him go back to traoning as a young mans should and had   him trashed in  the yard til he learnt manners

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Recall the meeting where Joffrey becomes obstreperous and vicious, Tywin declares him in need of a nap and sends the boy-king off with the maester and some nice sleeping potion. Tywin clearly realized he couldn't always do this.

Because Joffers was only 13 or 14 and had a few more years until he became a "man" and thus entitled to rule on his own, perhaps Tywin was thinking that it was past time to actually and formally put all power in the hands of a competent regent - himself, for example. Regent-Hand. Also, to get rid of Cersei. We see Tywin working to get her married to somebody far from King's Landing, and failing that, to get her shapely arse back to Casterly Rock.

Had he been able to strip Joffrey of his "kingly" powers and emphasize that he was just a minor, and not have Cersei pouring poison into the kid's ears and telling him that, as king, he could do anything he wanted - or anything SHE wanted - Tywin might have had a chance to train Joffrey in the ways of responsible ruling. At least, he'd have a few years to work at it.

My guess is, had Tywin failed with Joffrey, the pre-King would have suffered some kind of "hunting accident."

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I honestly think Tywin and the Tyrells were involved in Joffs murder, Tywin knew Danny was in the East and that she had dragons and an army so eventually she would cross the narrow sea, sure he played it off like it was no big deal but it most certainly was. If Joff was king lords would be flocking to Dannys banners as soon as she landed, Joff was sick and probably would miss treat Margery Tyrell and Ser Loras loves his sister very much would not sit around and watch Joff humiliate or hurt her in anyway. The Tyrells would be enemys in no time. 

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56 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

I honestly think Tywin and the Tyrells were involved in Joffs murder

Tyrells yes, but if Tywin was involved he would already have a culprit framed and waiting in the black cells beforehand - probably about to die after 'accidentally' consuming some of the same poison.

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3 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Tyrells yes, but if Tywin was involved he would already have a culprit framed and waiting in the black cells beforehand - probably about to die after 'accidentally' consuming some of the same poison.

I don't know about that. Tywin seems to be willing to, in part,  trade Tyrion for the appearance of justice being done. Hard to do that with your stooge dead.

Tywin take the mark's family hostage or something to keep him/her in line during the trial.

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I think the reason Tywin was "more upset than he wished to show" is that he realizes Joff cannot receive the same kind of lesson that Tyrion did and that his (Tywin's) options are fairly limited.

The only sharp lesson that would really make an impact on Joff is for Tywin to pull his military support and leave Joff pretty much defenseless on his throne, which would run the risk of surrendering Lannister hold on the IT.

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Getting rid of Tyrion in addition to Joff would have been killing two birds with one stone. Tywin's tried to arrange Tyrion's death before. Tyrion speculated that Tywin tried to arrange his death by having him clean Casterly Rock's drains. Below, Tywin isn't surprised by Tyrion's accusation, Tyrion isn't surprise by the attempt, and Tywin doesn't bother to deny it. They've been through this before.

Not long before the PW, Tyrion demanded Casterly Rock and Twyin realized that it was in fact Tyrion's if Jaime's KG problem wasn't solved. And he wasn't having that.

Note Tywin's pale, cold eyes with gold. It's a key to Tywin's thoughts. Tyrion gets them fairly often. Joff gets them here. Cersei recalls them and we see them when Tywin finds out Cersei/Joff let go of Barristan. But Jaime who is Tywin's favorite and heir, never gets them.

AGOT Tyrion VIII

He left the living to look after the dead, sent Bronn to take charge of his captive knight, and went alone in search of his father. Lord Tywin was seated by the river, sipping wine from a jeweled cup as his squire undid the fastenings on his breastplate. "A fine victory," Ser Kevan said when he saw Tyrion. "Your wild men fought well."

His father's eyes were on him, pale green flecked with gold, so cool they gave Tyrion a chill. "Did that surprise you, Father?" he asked. "Did it upset your plans? We were supposed to be butchered, were we not?"

Lord Tywin drained his cup, his face expressionless. "I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I'd hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan's pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve."

ASOS Tyrion I

 "The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

ASOS Tyrion VI

Joffrey had that sullen, sulky look he got. Cersei had him firmly by the shoulder, but perhaps she should have had him by the throat. The boy surprised them all. Instead of scuttling safely back under his rock, Joff drew himself up defiantly and said, "You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him."

Oh, my, hasn't this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.

Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. "Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather," said Cersei.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Tywin knew Danny was in the East and that she had dragons and an army

Do we have an evidence that he knows that?

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I think the reason Tywin was "more upset than he wished to show" is that he realizes Joff cannot receive the same kind of lesson that Tyrion did and that his (Tywin's) options are fairly limited.

The only sharp lesson that would really make an impact on Joff is for Tywin to pull his military support and leave Joff pretty much defenseless on his throne, which would run the risk of surrendering Lannister hold on the IT.

Meh, whose actually going to stop him from giving a sharp lesson? The only person who'd any legal authority to punish  would be the regent who is his very own daughter who still fears him. 

He needn't make it public something that physically hurts Joffrey that at least gives  the impression Tywin is willing to kill his grandson.

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9 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Do we have an evidence that he knows that?

ASOS Tyrion III

"No doubt he will," said Lord Tywin. "All the same, you must be crowned at the king's wedding. Cersei, summon your goldsmiths, we must see to a replacement." He did not wait for her reply, but turned at once to Varys. "You have reports?"

The eunuch drew a parchment from his sleeve. "A kraken has been seen off the Fingers." He giggled. "Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked an Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under. There is fighting on the Stepstones, and a new war between Tyrosh and Lys seems likely. Both hope to win Myr as ally. Sailors back from the Jade Sea report that a three-headed dragon has hatched in Qarth, and is the wonder of that city—"

"Dragons and krakens do not interest me, regardless of the number of their heads," said Lord Tywin. "Have your whisperers perchance found some trace of my brother's son?"

 

Tywin at least at publicly blows off the reports, and Varys does frame them in an absurd manner. Tywin knows that there are folks playing with the Targs in the East as evidenced by Dany's marriage to Drago at Illyrio's. He'd be an idiot to not be keeping an eye on her given his and Jaime's role in RR.

 

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ASOS Tyrion III

 

"No doubt he will," said Lord Tywin. "All the same, you must be crowned at the king's wedding. Cersei, summon your goldsmiths, we must see to a replacement." He did not wait for her reply, but turned at once to Varys. "You have reports?"

 

The eunuch drew a parchment from his sleeve. "A kraken has been seen off the Fingers." He giggled. "Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked an Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under. There is fighting on the Stepstones, and a new war between Tyrosh and Lys seems likely. Both hope to win Myr as ally. Sailors back from the Jade Sea report that a three-headed dragon has hatched in Qarth, and is the wonder of that city—"

 

29 minutes ago, Kandrax said:
3 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Tywin knew Danny was in the East and that she had dragons and an army

Do we have an evidence that he knows that?

That looks like one out of three to me - he knows about Dany, but Varys didn't specify 'real dragons' the way he did with the kraken, and he said nothing about an army - which when Dany was in Qarth was a mere handful of Dothraki

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