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Ser Sandor Clegane?


Corvo the Crow

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Assuming gravedigger is indeed Sandor and that "the hound" is dead as we are told, do you think Sandor will get knighted? 

Sinca he's living with religious people now and FotS and knighthood is heavily associated it seems a possibility, especially considering the company that visited the island, Septon Meribald who was a false knight but has become a Septon to repeny, Ser Hyle Hunt who was a bad knight but is now trying to aid Brienne with her quest. Lady Brienne Tarth, a women who is trying to be a model knight and the squire Podrick Payne.

It is as if these knights, former knight and knight to be were there to show Sandor what a true knight should be and that even bad and false knights can let go of their past  and try to do good. Meribald is especially noteworthy in this since he too has suffered a near death incident before changing his ways.

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I don't see it myself.

Sandor already knows what a true knight is - and that is non-existent. A knight is just a sword with a pretty bow tied on it. I think Brienne will become 'the Perfect Knight' because she can't be a real knight - and real knights aren't perfect... (and anyway, she is wrapped up in Florian imagery and the whole Parsifal mythos to boot)

I think Sandor is going in the opposite direction - he will not become a knight, instead he will stop being a sword so he can deal with his demons. Or put it another way, the Hound (who is dead) was the sword, Sandor is the man who was always trying to break out - I'm hoping the Elder Brother's 'healing hands' can do their work.

I know, bad news for all those rooting for Cleganebowl :dunno:

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No. He'll never want to be Ser Sandor. He can be a True Knight but that doesn't mean he has to be knighted for that. A person is more than just a Ser in front of their name. Same goes for Brienne.

It also isn't necessary if he ends up serving the Starks.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Í'm pretty sure Sandor will join the Warrior's Sons and became a knight in that fashion. The Seven saved his life, so now he can fight to defend them.

The Elder Brother would never allow that. I think he would be very much against the High Sparrow and his methods.

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Formally knighted?  What for?  Many people have taken Elder Brother's statements about Sandor and The Hound to mean that our guy emerges from his experiences on the QI changed to the point he's no longer a fighter.  That's not my take.  I think Joffrey's dog and the mad dog and all that the Hound was accused of will be reversed.   We don't know if the order will be still be in tact after TWOW.   If Sandor Clegane is confronted with the violence he once claimed to revel in that great fighter inside him will surface.   In kind, news of Sansa or Arya's survival may cause his sense of protector to rise to the surface.   The Hound was hung up on violence for violence's sake.  Sandor is likely to have taken some contrary training to heart.   I think it's more likely he won't be robbing and killing farmers anymore over becoming passive.   The gift of mercy was a strong theme during his adventures with Arya.   He honestly tried to teach her.  She denied him the gift and that needs some explaining.  

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I don't see it myself.

Sandor already knows what a true knight is - and that is non-existent. A knight is just a sword with a pretty bow tied on it. I think Brienne will become 'the Perfect Knight' because she can't be a real knight - and real knights aren't perfect... (and anyway, she is wrapped up in Florian imagery and the whole Parsifal mythos to boot)

 

Well said, Rufus.  Sandor is unlikely to be the Hound, true.  But he's still a giant of a man with exceptional fighting skill.   This is important on many fronts.   Perhaps we are too hung up on the terms knight and fighter.  Perhaps the type of person Sandor ultimately becomes is the guy we have caught glimpses of--a hero.  

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Well said, Rufus.  Sandor is unlikely to be the Hound, true.  But he's still a giant of a man with exceptional fighting skill.   This is important on many fronts.   Perhaps we are too hung up on the terms knight and fighter.  Perhaps the type of person Sandor ultimately becomes is the guy we have caught glimpses of--a hero.  

I agree. But I strongly doubt that Sandor would come out of the Quiet Isle for something as trivial as one stupid little girl, even pretty Sansa (Arya doesn't need "rescuing" anymore).  Also, he's now got a bum leg, so he's unlikely to ride forth to do battle unless it's a really big deal -- like the apocalyptic zombie invasion from the north and the likelihood of endless winter and endless night, if humanity fails.

Note that the Elder Brother refused to grant Sandor "mercy" because he had "vowed not to kill again." Putting down the already dead would thus be okay, right? Particularly in service to the living?

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3 minutes ago, zandru said:

I agree. But I strongly doubt that Sandor would come out of the Quiet Isle for something as trivial as one stupid little girl, even pretty Sansa (Arya doesn't need "rescuing" anymore).  Also, he's now got a bum leg, so he's unlikely to ride forth to do battle unless it's a really big deal -- like the apocalyptic zombie invasion from the north and the likelihood of endless winter and endless night, if humanity fails.

Note that the Elder Brother refused to grant Sandor "mercy" because he had "vowed not to kill again." Putting down the already dead would thus be okay, right? Particularly in service to the living?

Thanks zandru.   I don't recall EB refusing to grant The Hound "mercy"...I thought his story was that Clegane was dead when he found him.   Either way, our guy will be changed--they all change when they die or experience miracles or have a near death.   The manner of Sandor's "resurrection" will be very interesting.   Though I agree largely with your idea about the bum leg preventing Sandor from bar brawling, we don't know the extent of the injury nor it's level of debilitation.   I have a bum body part, but it doesn't prevent much of my daily routine from taking place.   I think my deal restricts the amount of time I can dedicate to certain strenuous activities, but it doesn't mean I couldn't lay someone out if they threatened me.   We are beat over the head with what outstanding warriors the Dothraki are from horseback--just a thought.   

I'm not so sure that Sansa or Arya are trivial to Sandor.   He desired and protected Sansa.  He hoped to take her safely home.  Arya on the other hand, was his traveling partner--maybe the 1st person who was able to see Sandor beneath the monstrous exterior of the Hound.   They were good together.  He kept her with him long after her usefulness to him was exhausted.  I would come out of hiding to protect someone like that.   Still, even if Clegane's adventures with the Stark girls are truly done, there is always those pesky Hound impersonators and Others, as you say.   

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I'm away from my books but there are wordplay and foreshadowing hints that tell us that Sandor Clegane is "night," perhaps even "the long night." He will never be knighted, imho. As a kid, he wanted to play with Gregor's toy wooden knight because, "you could make him fight." He was punished for that attempt and now he hates knights. He is no one's puppet.

Ser Alliser Thorne may hold some interesting hints for us about Sandor's future. He is a master at arms, so his job is to train young men at swordsmanship; to make them into warriors. Thorne makes the trip to King's Landing to ask for more men for the Night's Watch. Instead of taking him seriously, Tyrion jokes that the Night's Watch should be given shovels so they can effectively bury their dead and not have to worry about corpses coming back to life.

Don't you know, Sandor's new job is all about burying corpses.

People compare Baelish to Hades because of the pomegranate scene with Sansa, but it looks as if Sandor Clegane might be the better comparison for Lord of the Underworld. In Sansa's first encounter with him, he stands on one side of her while scary Ser Ilyn stands on the other side. As we know, Sansa likes Sandor better than Ser Ilyn, given a choice between the two.

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3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 I don't recall EB refusing to grant The Hound "mercy"...I thought his story was that Clegane was dead when he found him.

No way. Here's the quote from "A Feast for Crows", Brienne 6:

Quote

"I came upon him by the Trident, drawn by his cries of pain. He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sworn not to kill again. Instead, I bathed his fevered brow with river water...

etc. etc. This is where the Elder Bro asserts that "the Hound" died, and that "Sandor Clegane" is at rest. The priests of the Seven don't appear to have any skill in raising the dead, like Rh'llor.

I'm not a "SanSan"er, so I disagree with your interpretation, but we will just have to see what George RR tells us (eventually). Also, Arya will no longer need rescuing. Besides, Sandor never "kept her with him" - he often told her to get lost, and that he no longer cared about her. We don't know if this was actually true - given "Sandor-speak", he probably had a wish, hidden even from himself, that she'd stay - but the text indicates he said it. So it's far from Sandor trying in any way to make Arya stay with him.

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11 minutes ago, Seams said:

there are wordplay and foreshadowing hints that tell us that Sandor Clegane is "night," perhaps even "the long night."

He's certainly "the tall knight" (har). The rest of your analysis is too literary for me. I'm dumb and literal minded.

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1 minute ago, zandru said:

No way. Here's the quote from "A Feast for Crows", Brienne 6:

etc. etc. This is where the Elder Bro asserts that "the Hound" died, and that "Sandor Clegane" is at rest. The priests of the Seven don't appear to have any skill in raising the dead, like Rh'llor.

I'm not a "SanSan"er, so I disagree with your interpretation, but we will just have to see what George RR tells us (eventually). Also, Arya will no longer need rescuing. Besides, Sandor never "kept her with him" - he often told her to get lost, and that he no longer cared about her. We don't know if this was actually true - given "Sandor-speak", he probably had a wish, hidden even from himself, that she'd stay - but the text indicates he said it. So it's far from Sandor trying in any way to make Arya stay with him.

Thanks very much for the quote.   I am grateful to stand corrected.   

Oh man, I'm the furthest from a San San fan as you will find.   I just saw a really special thing between them --  a friendship!--in the midst of all that treachery in Kings Landing.   As to Arya, we've read the overall text differently and simply see different things here.  Sort of back to the original ideas about Sandor versus The Hound personalities, perhaps this new man we may only have had glimpses of is more inclined to actually make overt stands for the weak.  I keep going back to that killing of the farmer and his daughter.   I could just be stuck on that attitude (they will die come winter anyway) being the thing that changes.   Maybe a value life over death sort of metamorphosis?  

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I keep going back to that killing of the farmer and his daughter. 

Okay, now you're talking about the Sandor Clegane of the teevie show. The one in the books is really a different man - and there was no "farmer - daughter" scene.

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15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks very much for the quote.   I am grateful to stand corrected.   

Oh man, I'm the furthest from a San San fan as you will find.   I just saw a really special thing between them --  a friendship!--in the midst of all that treachery in Kings Landing.   As to Arya, we've read the overall text differently and simply see different things here.  Sort of back to the original ideas about Sandor versus The Hound personalities, perhaps this new man we may only have had glimpses of is more inclined to actually make overt stands for the weak.  I keep going back to that killing of the farmer and his daughter.   I could just be stuck on that attitude (they will die come winter anyway) being the thing that changes.   Maybe a value life over death sort of metamorphosis?  

No he never did that in the books. That scene never happened. 

When Sandor and Arya stay in the village he helps them build a palisade for protection against the mountains clans. After he made it the villagers kick him. He says he coud protect them against the mountain clans but they refuse, He then just asks for fair wage and leaves without pushing the argument any further.

Book!Sandor would say Show!Sandor is really stupid.

 

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57 minutes ago, Firefae said:

No he never did that in the books. That scene never happened. 

When Sandor and Arya stay in the village he helps them build a palisade for protection against the mountains clans. After he made it the villagers kick him. He says he coud protect them against the mountain clans but they refuse, He then just asks for fair wage and leaves without pushing the argument any further.

Book!Sandor would say Show!Sandor is really stupid.

 

I'm probably crossing my mediums.   Time to hit the books again. 

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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm probably crossing my mediums.   Time to hit the books again. 

#StopTheConflation ;)

It's a bit of an unpopular opinion but I don't think Sandor is well adapted. Like, at all. But then again, none of the characters are well adapted in my opinion.

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If he has taken vows and joined the Brothers of the Quiet Isle, I expect that would preclude him from taking up arms and becoming a knight.

Even if this were not so, Hound or not, he is still Sandor Clegane, and the Mountain is still his brother. Correct me if I’m wrong, but his brother’s knighthood is his main motivation for rejecting knighthood himself. Becoming religious and perhaps even a good man wouldn’t change that.

Either way I’m more than happy for Sandor to have his ‘happy’ ending staying on the Quiet Isle, Cleganebowl never caught on for me.

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10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Assuming gravedigger is indeed Sandor and that "the hound" is dead as we are told, do you think Sandor will get knighted? 

Assuming the gravedigger is Sandor and the horse that does not want to be gelded is Stranger ---- there is in my opinion only four things that give the Sandor character likeable characteristics. Sandor cared about his horse, he tried in his limited way to help the two Stark girls and when given the opportunity Sandor did not kill his brother.

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sinca he's living with religious people now and FotS and knighthood is heavily associated it seems a possibility, especially considering the company that visited the island, Septon Meribald who was a false knight but has become a Septon to repeny, Ser Hyle Hunt who was a bad knight but is now trying to aid Brienne with her quest. Lady Brienne Tarth, a women who is trying to be a model knight and the squire Podrick Payne.

None of that ^ has relevance. What in my opinion does have relevance is that if Sandor discovers that someone is wearing his helm and committing atrocities in his name Sandor might get a bit peevish and Sandor may want to correct the situation.

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It is as if these knights, former knight and knight to be were there to show Sandor what a true knight should be and that even bad and false knights can let go of their past  and try to do good. Meribald is especially noteworthy in this since he too has suffered a near death incident before changing his ways.

Sandor is not a nice guy. He does his job. He is big. He kills. He is cynical. He is the dog that people fear and respect & he likes it.  When he is nominated to the KG Sandor says:

A Game of Thrones - Sansa V      The Hound's scarred face was hard to read. He took a long moment to consider. "Why not? I have no lands nor wife to forsake, and who'd care if I did?" The burned side of his mouth twisted. "But I warn you, I'll say no knight's vows."    "The Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard have always been knights," Ser Boros said firmly.   "Until now," the Hound said in his deep rasp, and Ser Boros fell silent./

My way of looking at it is Sandor is a minor character. When I first read the martin tale I was right mad that Arya didn't give the gift of mercy and left Sandor to die alone and then for some odd reason martin decided to have Sandor show up again.

I might get right mad again in WoW. If martin takes Sandor off the Quiet Isle it best be to clear his name.

Sandor is a crass version of fuck you and the status quo. He doesn't go outta his way looking to stir stuff up. By today's standards Sandor is a hit-man/killing machine. In story Sandor is a minor character yet Sandor tells Joffrey, Cersei and the court --- "But I warn you, I'll say no knight's vows."    AND they accept it. Sandor wears the KG white cloak, and he says things like:

A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV    He snorted. "There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can't protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don't ever believe any different."

A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV    "Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. "I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they're all meat, and I'm the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers." Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. "So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I need fear."/

The above quotes describe Sandor in a nutshell. AND as Varys said:

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion II     Tyrion cocked his head sideways. "Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?"    Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."/

Of course a person would need to read the entire CoK Tyrion II exchange to get the context.

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7 hours ago, Firefae said:

The Elder Brother would never allow that. I think he would be very much against the High Sparrow and his methods.

There is no indication of that. And the man is the High Septon now. The ducks will get into line. This is not a democracy. The High Septon is the Voice of the Seven on Earth, the living avatar of the Seven.

The Elder Brother is a pious man himself, rather reluctant to allow a woman access to his monastery. Sandor needs a purpose to return into the story, and the Warrior's Sons won't only give him a purpose but also the means to finally deal with his brother. As a member of a knightly order unconnected to the corrupt and disgusting nobility Sandor could also rediscover the ideals of knighthood. The Warrior's Sons don't fight for corrupt lords, they fight for the gods. The very gods who brought Sandor back from certain death (through the healing hands of the Elder Brother).

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28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication of that. And the man is the High Septon now. The ducks will get into line. This is not a democracy. The High Septon is the Voice of the Seven on Earth, the living avatar of the Seven.

The Elder Brother is a pious man himself, rather reluctant to allow a woman access to his monastery. Sandor needs a purpose to return into the story, and the Warrior's Sons won't only give him a purpose but also the means to finally deal with his brother. As a member of a knightly order unconnected to the corrupt and disgusting nobility Sandor could also rediscover the ideals of knighthood. The Warrior's Sons don't fight for corrupt lords, they fight for the gods. The very gods who brought Sandor back from certain death (through the healing hands of the Elder Brother).

There is no reason to think that Meribald and the Elder brother are affiliated with the Warrior Sons or the High Septon.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

There is no reason to think that Meribald and the Elder brother are affiliated with the Warrior Sons or the High Septon.

I know. But this is not necessary. The High Septon is the High Septon. The members of the Faith will follow him, especially the lower orders. He is one of them, and he knows their problems.

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