Ser Sandor Clegane?

[Firefae]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Hmmm. Somehow I missed how Sansa becomes "Queen in the North"? We are still talking about the books, right? Sansa is missing; Petyr Baelish has acknowledged (one of) his bastards; the Boltons hold Winterfell and are Wardens of the North; Jeyne Poole the steward's daughter is the Lady of Winterfell aka "QotN"; the 5-King Rebellion is over and Cersei has won. Oh, and the North still holds to the Old Gods, although if Stannis prevails, there will also be some amount of fire-god worship as well.

Jeyne is currently heading towards the Wall. She's definitely going to be exposed at some point. Either by the resurrected Jon Snow, or by Arya herself.

Sansa is currently in hiding as Alayne Stone, yes, but I think it's pretty clear she will eventually regain her identity as Sansa Stark and will play a role in the War of the Dawn. I think she will definitly end in a position of power, either as advisor or maybe Queen in her own right.

There is no reason to dismiss Sansa's importance in the story. She's a Stark and a major POV character. Just like Bran and Arya she has a training montage where she learns about her specific 'skill'.

 

 

Quote

Personally, I see Sandor Clegane (the Hound is dead) as having warm feelings toward Sansa Stark and generally wishing her well, but no particular romantic attachment. He's seen that what he interpreted as affection was just her little talking bird-type politeness. Nothing personal, Dawg. Just those fine, great-lady manners. Ditto for Sansa. She may compare every other man to Sandor, but she also thinks of him as this awful scary thing that she, and only she, was brave enough to kiss (even though she didn't and bravely hid under her blankets until he was gone.) When she learns he's gone rogue and is pillaging, killing, and committing unspeakable atrocities in the Riverlands, she'll just shrug and attribute it to the wildfire.

But if he just cares for her wellbeing, why not help her? She's propably the most important person in his life, bar Elder Brother and Gregor ofcourse, maybe Arya too.

Quote

I fail to see how a knighted Sandor Clegane would fight any better than a non-knight, or, as noted, the walking dead would even notice. I also don't understand how, having been given refuge on an island where many of the men and boys are victims of war, including former foot soldiers and disillusioned knights, would somehow come to believe that knighthood is a wonderful, transformative thing that makes slaughter a holy act.

  yes yes yes this!

 

 

[Springwatch]

I don't think Sandor will get knighted. The big deal about knights is that they are bound by oaths - it's like wearing a collar, a sign of captivity. If we ever see 'true knights', they will probably be like killer robots - monsters, in effect.

I think Sandor will go the other way, fall in the trickster camp. He tricked his way onto the river ferry, he can lie perfectly, even disguise himself. We need that type more than the other.

He will find the Stark girls. Bran's vision has the hound figure on one side of them, and the sun figure on the other. Sandor is chief Hound, just as Jaime is chief sun knight - and neither of them has done enough yet to justify that vision. Destiny calls.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Bran's vision has the hound figure on one side of them, and the sun figure on the other.

Maybe. But all the other features of Bran's vision were things that were going on at that particular time, at various places in Westeros. So it wasn't a foretelling of things to come but rather an allegorical view of what was happening right then.

This wasn't the first time that the Hound and the Kingslayer were pictured together, remember. When the king's party rode into Winterfell, it was led by Jaime and Sandor. Their paths have diverged sharply ever since, while their arcs are starting to share some similarities.

[Makk]

There was a topic here (that I can't find) that suggested the reason he is still alive and in the books is to become a judge in Margaery's trial. I didn't read it properly at the time, largely because I didn't see the books even going ahead with a trial for her, but in retrospect it does make a certain kind of sense.

Quote

A sacred court of seven judges shall sit upon this case. Three shall be of your female sex. A maiden, a mother, and a crone. Who could be more suited to judge the wickedness of women?"

This implies that there would be four other judges to represent the other gods. A father, a warrior, a smith, and... the Stranger. I don't want to get into this too much because it isn't my theory and I'm not even sure I agree with it, but there would be nice symbolism in Sandor representing the Stranger. Someone who is associated with the faith, has had a recent near death experience, digs graves, and has a terrifying visage.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Maybe. But all the other features of Bran's vision were things that were going on at that particular time, at various places in Westeros. So it wasn't a foretelling of things to come but rather an allegorical view of what was happening right then.

This line of thinking is really amusing because there's absolutely no "happening right there" interpretation of the Sansa/Arya/Sandor/Jaime/Mountain vision. And as if Jon turning ice, Catelyn sailing into a storm, Sansa crying herself to sleep and Arya holding her secrets in her heart are not symbolic of those character's arcs.

It is really simple, and probably what GRRM had in mind when he said he wished he hadn't made a few foreshadowings so obvious. Jaime and Sandor will protect Sansa/Arya, from UnGregor.

[rotting sea cow]

18 hours ago, Firefae said:

But what if that helmet gets picked up by someone else again? And someone else needs to slay this new person?

It jut doesn't end.

He needs to destroy that helmet, slaying the Hound once for all. BTW, I think the next Hound will be Strongboar.

 

18 hours ago, Firefae said:

You can't just simply separate the personal from te political. Sansa knows that all too well.

Knighting someone is a public event. Northerners will see their Queen perform a cereomony linked to The Faith. Not good PR. 

You put too much emphasis on that. White Harbor follow the Seven and I don't think that most people in the North will really care. Most Old Gods followers doesn't seem to be religious zealots. 

[Firefae]

50 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

He needs to destroy that helmet, slaying the Hound once for all. BTW, I think the next Hound will be Strongboar.

Well that would definitely be ironic.

Quote

You put too much emphasis on that. White Harbor follow the Seven and I don't think that most people in the North will really care. Most Old Gods followers doesn't seem to be religious zealots. 

True, but Northern Indepence has been a thing since the end of AGOT. To win their loyalty Sansa has to continue this stance of Northern Indepence and that won't happen when she performs a knighting, relating to the Faith of the Seven/South.

[Springwatch]

18 hours ago, zandru said:

This wasn't the first time that the Hound and the Kingslayer were pictured together, remember. When the king's party rode into Winterfell, it was led by Jaime and Sandor. Their paths have diverged sharply ever since, while their arcs are starting to share some similarities.

Good observation! They clashed as well in the Hand's Tourney - Hound against Sun. (And in the last round - the giant.)

If you allow that wolves and dogs are pretty much the same, and a shining man is much like a burning man - then this pairing appears all over the place.

So there's one thing I'm certain of: neither Sandor nor Jaime will drop out of the story any time soon.

[chrisdaw]

Sansa may knight Sandor or more likely give him his white cloak, but it won't be as queen of the north or anything to do with the north. It is a romance of knights and ladies, decidedly what GRRM disassociated the north with. Theirs is a southron story now, Sandor's always was. The Faith will probably knight him and queen Sansa will give him back his white cloak when she makes him KG.

Then we have the scenario that makes GRRM giddy, a knight of vows and queen of virtue tormented by a love they can never realise lest they're no better than Jaime and Cersei and the realm will bleed.

[Platypus Rex]

Sandor will be knighted by Edric Dayne.

[zandru]

9 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Sandor will be knighted by Edric Dayne.

But why? I can see no reason why Sandor's near death and his repentance and at least partial recovery at the Quiet Isle would make him all hot to go out as a killing machine, under godly oaths and puffed up "honor". Sandor knows what knights are. He's seen them in battle often enough. Why would he want to be knighted by little Ned Dayne or Queen in her own mind Sansa - or anyone?

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

But why? I can see no reason why Sandor's near death and his repentance and at least partial recovery at the Quiet Isle would make him all hot to go out as a killing machine, under godly oaths and puffed up "honor". Sandor knows what knights are. He's seen them in battle often enough. Why would he want to be knighted by little Ned Dayne or Queen in her own mind Sansa - or anyone?

Because he has been wronged? Some people who suffer at the hands of the others move on with their life, some make the others suffer and some try to prevent the same things from happening to others. Think of the Manderlys for example. They were exiled from their lands and one of Lord Manderlys titles is defender of the dispossessed( a title which they live up to, judged by the refugees.)

What better way for someone who hates knights and accuses (rightly) knights for being false than becoming a knight and doing good? 

It may be said that he hasn't done any such thing so far but near death experiences change people. And coming back from the dead changes people in this story. Just think of Stoneheart or even Beric. From what we little we saw of him, he's a cocky young lordling (here to WIN the tourney) before he dies(for the first time that is).

 

Sandor was already a killing machine despite not being a knight, so being knighted and turning from some killing machine into a shield of the weak would be the ultimate "fuck your sers" for him.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Because he has been wronged?  ....  killing machine .... shield ...

Well, I'm not feeling it. Clearly, our mileages will vary!

[Platypus Rex]

4 hours ago, zandru said:

But why? I can see no reason why Sandor's near death and his repentance and at least partial recovery at the Quiet Isle would make him all hot to go out as a killing machine, under godly oaths and puffed up "honor". Sandor knows what knights are. 

Why?  Maybe to defend the weak?   Maybe to fight evil and right wrongs?  Maybe to take his knightly oaths seriously?  Because being a knight (a "true knight") was a childhood dream of his before Gregor crushed it?  I think you may be taking Sandor's cynical rants too seriously if you assume, even after his near death and repentance, he is still as cynical as he was.

In story terms, why Edric Dayne?  Because having the Lord of Starfall missing in action somewhere in the vicinity of the Riverlands, and with the power to appoint the next "Sword of the Morning" (who must be a knight in the service of House Dayne) is a loose end waiting for resolution. 

And also because (and this is complicated) a number of curious parallels between Edric Dayne and Podrick Payne, and also between Sandor and Brienne, suggest that these characters are collectively headed toward a mixup.

[zandru]

40 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Maybe to defend the weak?   Maybe to fight evil and right wrongs? 

You don't need to be a knight to do any of those things. You don't need to be knighted through the Seven Gods to do good. Believe as you will. We won't know until the rest of the books come out. But your arguments don't convince me. Sorry.

And I really don't know enough about this "Sword of the Morning" schtick to say anything intelligent about it.

[Platypus Rex]

32 minutes ago, zandru said:

You don't need to be a knight to do any of those things. You don't need to be knighted through the Seven Gods to do good. Believe as you will. 

Somehow I suspect we are no longer talking about the books, and Sandor as portrayed in the books, but about your personal opinions.

But if we ARE still discussing the books, it is clear that Sandor was raised in the Faith of the Seven, and had a childhood dream of becoming a knight.  That childhood dream crushed in bitterness after Gregor's attack.  He then met Sansa, for whom he has feelings.  Sansa is also a member of the Faith of the Seven, and subscribes to some of its ideals, including that of the "true knight".  Sandor's savage denunciations of Sansa's ideals have a "protest too much" quality about them.  The climax of his encounter with Sansa (where he later claimed he intended to rape her) is that Sansa sings a hymn of the Faith, and Sandor flees in tears.  After various adventures in the Riverlands, Sandor is finally seen undergoing some kind of penance or repentance in a monastery of the Faith of the Seven.

Yeah, says you, but he should not NEED religion because religion = bad or whatever.  Fine.  Be that way.  

You expressed no interest in my "Sword of the Morning schtick", so I won't elaborate.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Somehow I suspect we are no longer talking about the books, and Sandor as portrayed in the books, but about your personal opinions.

Well, BOTH of us are talking about "our personal opinions" and leaning (often slightly) on the text to justify them. Nothing unusual or wrong there. You've convinced yourself; fine. You don't need my pelt on your wall.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

You expressed no interest in my "Sword of the Morning schtick", so I won't elaborate.

Yeah, I really don't feel that I have seen enough about this "Dawn" and "Dayne" deal to have any sensible opinions. So I won't engage with those of you who do. As far as my knowlege goes, you're spinning moonbeams. Maybe so, maybe no. Have at it, though.

[Platypus Rex]

17 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, BOTH of us are talking about "our personal opinions" and leaning (often slightly) on the text to justify them. Nothing unusual or wrong there. 

Dude, I was the one who leaned (however slightly) on the text.  You did not do so at all., and have no interest in those parts in my references to the text.  And no, I don't assume that I'm necessarily right.  I'm just speculating in a thread that invited speculation. 

I merely pointed out that your objection has nothing to do with the text.  Is that fair? 

[HoodedCrow]

Perhaps Sansa will give him a grey and white Stark cloak and he will become a wolf instead of a dog. Yes, he may take out the false Hound. He’s got to fight against the Others, don’t you think?

I liked the Lady Forlorn suggestion. 

It would be interesting to have Jaime and Sandor on the same side at the last.

Lets see, Sandor saved Arya, Sansa, Ser Loras, KL for a while, and his brother in staying his hand.

Martin makes a lot of points about what knights were about despite our fantasies, what heroes( or anti heroes )are about and I think Jaime is pretty strong about the difficulty of being able to rely on oaths instead of committing to wrestle with competing values.

Dealing with moral ambiguity could be a subtitle for this series! 

 

 

 

[M.Alhazred]

I don't think he would still wanna be a knight.