How to Improve the North Economically?

[Bernie Mac]

18 hours ago, •Brandon Ice Eyes said:

Ah you make fair points but what about a journey to the jade sea to become rich? It’d be long and brutal and potentially pointless as you may die in the journey but if you survived as the sea snake did, you’d be rich?

Sure, but clearly it is pretty hard as we would have seen many lords, lords with actual navies attempting such a get rich scheme. 

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure, but clearly it is pretty hard as we would have seen many lords, lords with actual navies attempting such a get rich scheme. 

Ah good point

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm well aware of that, did you not read the post I was replying to? OP was talking about a major road network akin to the kings road connecting the major locations of the North. This has not even been attempted in the smaller, densely populated cash rich Westerlands or Reach. For it to happen first in the North is a pipe dream, not until their society advances. 

From what we know the rulers of the North were not willing to spend the same on defences on the west coast than they were on the east, they simply let people move away or defend themselves. 

Now logically there must be sensible reasons why many different rulers of the North all came to the same conclusion that the west coast was not worth the same effort as the east. Cost effectiveness seems a plausible reason, though obviously not canon.   

Both Lannisport and Oldtown have their own navies and trade that would entice merchants. More importantly merchants don't have to pass Iron Islands to get there. It is likely not worth the risk, not when timber is a pretty common resource on Planatos. 

Well yeah, Manderly is hell bent on revenge. He likely no longer cares about balancing the books, being willing to break into any cash reserves he has. 

Lordsport is in the iron islands .....

[Bernie Mac]

On 9/19/2018 at 7:10 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Lordsport is in the iron islands .....

Did I mention Lordsport in my post? Why would an iron island town, a town half the size of Lord Hewett's Town, need protection from their own? 

Of course Lordsport does have value in its trade

Such riches as the Iron Islands possess lie under the hills of Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, where lead, tin, and iron can be found in abundance. These ores are the chief export of the islands. There are many fine metalworkers amongst the ironborn, as might be expected; the forges of Lordsport produce swords, axes, ringmail, and plate second to none.

There is reason to make the journey and trading with the Ironborn likely means they are not going to steal the goods they have just sold. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Did I mention Lordsport in my post? Why would an iron island town, a town half the size of Lord Hewett's Town, need protection from their own? 

Of course Lordsport does have value in its trade

Such riches as the Iron Islands possess lie under the hills of Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, where lead, tin, and iron can be found in abundance. These ores are the chief export of the islands. There are many fine metalworkers amongst the ironborn, as might be expected; the forges of Lordsport produce swords, axes, ringmail, and plate second to none.

There is reason to make the journey and trading with the Ironborn likely means they are not going to steal the goods they have just sold. 

I was merely pointing out if merchants from all over are already trading in Lordsport, then clearly the merchants are not afraid of IB reaving. 

We already know the greyjoys have banned reaving close to home thanks to the world book. That's why we read about reaving around the Stepstones, Slaver's Bay, et al instead of raiding/reaving near Lannisport, Bear Island, Oldtown, etc. 

None of this changes that I don't really see what would be of value to trade on the western side of the North, but the traffic need not be worried about the IB for the aforementioned reasons.

[Kaibaman]

I think if the Northerners were to make fishery a major industry then they won't have to rely too much on agriculture or food imports which might be able to supplement times when food is scarce especially during the winter years when crops don't grow. This was how people in Scandinavia essentially survived by subsisting on seafood. If more people are able to be fed consistently then you won't have to worry about the population plummeting every winter and rebounding in the years following which is really bad for any nation's economy.

[Bowen 747]

On 9/16/2018 at 9:13 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

You seem to have a misconception of the scale of the Frey wealth, and of the traffic volume that passes over their bridge.

Their wealth level is likely about halfway between that of Houses Dustin and Manderly. Meaning wealthier than the Dustins, but poorer than the Manderlys by a significant margin.

So certainly not at a level that will revolutionize the North’s economy.

You're overestimating the wealth of the Manderlys.  The Manderlys may be rich by the standards of the backass north but House Frey is the richer house because it has productive farm lands in addition to their bridge.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

You're overestimating the wealth of the Manderlys.  The Manderlys may be rich by the standards of the backass north but House Frey is the richer house because it has productive farm lands in addition to their bridge.  

Is there really anything to substantiate that in either way?

[Bowen 747]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Is there really anything to substantiate that in either way?

Is there anything to substantiate what the other person was saying?

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

Is there anything to substantiate what the other person was saying?

I’d argue there’s nothing definitive for either side, but I’d generally side with the manderlys. They have a port, a mint, large urban population and a more advanced, specialized economy. The Freys are clearly rich and powerful likely with more and more fertile land, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to tangible wealth eg gold and silver.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

17 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

Is there anything to substantiate what the other person was saying?

Whole threads have been written about it. Like most of these topics, there is no line in the books explicitly stating:

“ Dear members of Westeros.org, Lord Manderly is richer than Lord Frey.”

However, a logical assessment of their comparative positions makes it very hard to reach a different conclusion.

A few facts to ponder on: 

1. By looking at the map, consider which regions (and what percentage of the trade from those regions) are connected by the Frey bridge? This would help determine the extent of the traffic they can toll. And it is made clear in the books that their wealth was generated to a large extent by their bridge.

2. Compare that to traffic through White Harbor.

3. The size of a settlement is a function of its economy. And White Harbor is not just large by “backward Northern standards”. It is the fifth largest city in all of Westeros. 

4. The Manderlys control a large land area just like the Freys, and trade up the White Knife as well.

In conclusion, based on the facts we have, the Manderlys should be significantly wealthier than the Freys.

[Bernie Mac]

55 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Whole threads have been written about it. Like most of these topics, there is no line in the books explicitly stating:

“ Dear members of Westeros.org, Lord Manderly is richer than Lord Frey.”

However, a logical assessment of their comparative positions makes it very hard to reach a different conclusion.

A logical conclusion would be that the Riverlands is a richer realm than the North so if you were forced to choose between the richest house in the two regions it would most likely be the Riverland house. 

In medieval europe I'd bet the richest vassal of England was wealthier than his Scottish counterpart. 

55 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

In conclusion, based on the facts we have, the Manderlys should be significantly wealthier than the Freys.

lol no, not significantly. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

A logical conclusion would be that the Riverlands is a richer realm than the North so if you were forced to choose between the richest house in the two regions it would most likely be the Riverland house. 

In medieval europe I'd bet the richest vassal of England was wealthier than his Scottish counterpart. 

lol no, not significantly. 

That is a rather shallow assessment of the evidence. It ignores the relative spread of wealth in the two regions, the individual scenarios of the respective Houses, and facts on the ground. It is also ignorant of the scale of the difference between the wealth of the two regions, as are all of us.

The Riverlands as a whole might well be richer than the Vale as well, but whoever rules Gulltown would still be much wealthier than the ruler of the Twins.

The Manderlys concentrate a much larger portion of the North’s wealth in their domain than the Freys do of the Riverlands’ total wealth.

Jon stated that White Harbor is the mouth of the North. The vast bulk of its trade flows through that port. By contrast not even 10% of the Riverlands’ trade will flow through the Twins.

[Bernie Mac]

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That is a rather shallow assessment of the evidence.

Well yeah, we've both been over this debate and neither has convinced the other with longer and more detailed reasoning. 

 

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It ignores the relative spread of wealth in the two regions,

Yeah, it actually does not. Much of the North (Crannogmen, Skagos, Mormonts, Mountain Clans, Glovers) are dirt poor, less wealth overall in the North is going to lessen the possibility of one area becoming super wealthy. 

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

the individual scenarios of the respective Houses, and facts on the ground.

The facts on the ground are that the Freys are repeatedly, both in the current series and the novellas, commented on their wealth. The author even describes them as wealthy in the appendix. 

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

It is also ignorant of the scale of the difference between the wealth of the two regions, as are all of us.

The Riverlands is richer than the North, can  you not even admit that?

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Riverlands as a whole might well be richer than the Vale as well, but whoever rules Gulltown would still be much wealthier than the ruler of the Twins.

Except that is not true, it is merchants who get excessively rich via cities. we also know that the crown has their own men there collecting money and we know via Littlefinger's rise that when he worked in Gulltown it was for Jon rather than Grafton. 

That wealth is spread out much more in cities, so the idea that rulers of cities are automatically richer than landowners is not actually correct. 

The Vale lords under Littlefinger's spell appear to be those who are in need of his financial aid, Grafton sending his son as hostage and his reaction to not being allowed to sell his grains does not speak of someone super wealthy.

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Manderlys concentrate a much larger portion of the North’s wealth in their domain than the Freys do of the Riverlands’ total wealth.

You're guessing, nothing from the text actually backs that up. 

14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Jon stated that White Harbor is the mouth of the North. The vast bulk of its trade flows through that port. By contrast not even 10% of the Riverlands’ trade will flow through the Twins.

Again, more guesswork.