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Vargo's death.


Kandrax

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57 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Are we supposed to cheer it, be disgusted what Gregor did or bith of both?

I feel a bit (lot?) of both? Vargo is such a horrible person, such mindless cruelty... which, for me, is harder to understand than mindless violence. So, he totally had it coming. Karma is indeed a bitch. 

And at the same time, what the Mountain does to him is so utterly horrific that I can't help but feel sorry for Vargo. 

Damn you, .Martin. :P

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

... And at the same time, what the Mountain does to him is so utterly horrific that I can't help but feel sorry for Vargo. 

There are a lot of characters that, even though horrible, I can find a shred of compassion for, but Vargo Hoat (or his Brave Companions) isn't one of them. I suspect that I will have the same reaction to Ramsey's end, should it be as unsavory.

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I want to know how Hoat's death relates to this passage from Tyrion's thoughts about Penny and Groat's traveling show. She believes people enjoyed being entertained; Tyrion thinks people just liked looking at freaks:

That’s because they have never seen a dwarf before, in their wretched pisspot towns, Tyrion thought. The bloody brats would follow around a two-headed goat if one turned up. Until they got bored with its bleating and slaughtered it for supper. But he had no wish to make her weep again, so instead he said, “Daenerys has a kind heart and a generous nature.” It was what she needed to hear. “She will find a place for you at her court, I don’t doubt. A safe place, beyond my sister’s reach.”

Are "bloody brats" similar to "bloody mummers"? The meat from Hoat's severed limbs was fed to him and to others.

And if you can figure out the goat connection, could someone please explain Shagga wanting to cut off body parts and feed them to the goats?

Hoat wore a chain that included all kinds of coins from around the known world. So I wonder whether there is some foreshadowing in his arc that will apply to the outcomes for the Master of Coin, Baelish.

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15 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Are we supposed to cheer it, be disgusted what Gregor did or bit of both?

Well, that depends on YOU, of course. I'm thinking "both" for my own opinion. The Goat was another character that I could not feel sorry for, much like Gregor himself. Each had been responsible for so many atrocities, none of them justifiable in my mind, and none as far as I'd read ever felt the least bit bad or even conflicted about any of them. Then again, we are never given any reason why they're so hateful or get into their heads.

Now, Theon was another matter. We see him doing stupid and hateful things, while spinning lame justifications to himself that he doesn't seem to even believe, so that when the horror of Ramsey's torture is detailed, I felt that he'd had more than enough punishment. That was a big difference between That Which May Not Be Named and the books - You Know What seemed to revel in the explicit scenes of torture, but Theon looked largely the same afterwards. No harm, no foul, right? The books say less about how it was done than the effects: the missing fingers, toes, teeth; emaciation, white hair, total loss of self.

On yet another hand, I didn't think Cersei's Walk of Shame was anywhere near enough punishment, and it's frightening that she's now on her way back into the Queenship (via Tommen), in spite of her theoretically impending trial, which she will win with FrankenGregor. She will have learned nothing from her humiliation (in my attempt to predict the future) other than she needs to do unto them before they do it unto her this time. The sudden, shocking deaths of Pycelle and Kevan should increase her paranoia, and any bets as to whether Tyrion will be blamed? I thought not.

Sorry about the excess detail. Feel free to TL;DR.

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13 hours ago, Seams said:

Are "bloody brats" similar to "bloody mummers"?

No; "brats" is what we call "bratwurst" in Wisconsin.

13 hours ago, Seams said:

And if you can figure out the goat connection, could someone please explain Shagga wanting to cut off body parts and feed them to the goats?

The goat connection is that the part Shagga wants to cut off (the "manhood") is also referred to as a "wiener", which is the much milder, Anglo equivalent of the brat. Both are served in buns, with condiments.

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6 minutes ago, zandru said:

No; "brats" is what we call "bratwurst" in Wisconsin.

The goat connection is that the part Shagga wants to cut off (the "manhood") is also referred to as a "wiener", which is the much milder, Anglo equivalent of the brat. Both are served in buns, with condiments.

None of this is coincidental and it's all consistent with the consumption of Vargo Hoat's flesh. (Except your juvenile wiener joke, which GRRM would not make so explicit.)

"I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvets, knights puffed up like bladers with their honors, yes, and women and children too - they're all meat and I'm the butcher." (The Hound, somewhere in ACoK)

GRRM is giving us a scenario from the endless cycle of war and bloodshed and the sacrifice of human lives. @sweetsunray made an interesting analysis of the sausage at Craster's keep, coveted by the hungry members of the Night's Watch who were camping there during their ranging. She saw the sausage as likely made out of the "meat" of the previous Night's Watch ranging group killed by the wildling, Craster. The new Night's Watch ranging group ends up killing Craster to get at the sausage. Those traitorous Night's Watch brothers end up "eaten" by Bran while he is in his direwolf. The cycle continued, each generation of hungry men victimizing the previous, as each new wave tries to survive.

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16 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Are we supposed to cheer it, be disgusted what Gregor did or bith of both?

I don't feel like GRRM is that judgemental or patronising to his readers. You aren't "supposed" to feel anything, these situations are morally ambiguous. How do you feel about people pissing on Mussolini's corpse? There's no right or wrong answer, but it's interesting to think about, and to think about what principles you have, and what exceptions there are. 

The Theon situation is similar. We have this unlikable character commit brutal crimes, but then get victimised by someone far worse. 

Personally, I had no sympathy for Vargo. His attitude was that you can take what you want, and commit as much cruelty as you like, so he can have no complaints about meeting someone with the same attitude. I would judge Gregor for what he did, it's not normal to want to do that to someone. 

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Vargo was from Qohor, a population which amicably left ancient Valyria due to religious tolerance.  Qohor residents worship the Black Goat and give daily sacrifices.  One could interpret Vargo with his goat helm as a staunch holy man.....in an Old Gods sort of way.  I believe that his tendency to cut off limbs earning the title of the "Crippler" were for religious reasons.

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53 minutes ago, Bobity. said:

Vargo was from Qohor, a population which amicably left ancient Valyria due to religious tolerance.  Qohor residents worship the Black Goat and give daily sacrifices.  One could interpret Vargo with his goat helm as a staunch holy man.....in an Old Gods sort of way.  I believe that his tendency to cut off limbs earning the title of the "Crippler" were for religious reasons.

I wonder if his head being thrown in to the God's Eye will have any significance later...

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1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

I cannot think of a single attribute of Gregor's that I would consider "normal". Where did that thing come from, even in fiction?

I dunno, there was a little hint on a Histories of Westeros DVD bonus that his grandfather was interested in magic, but I couldn't find anything else to back it up. Obviously we have actual giants in the story, but I just don't think we've seen any hints that there's something going on there, and Gregor has had quite a lot to do in the stories. 

I feel like George could have made him "well over seven foot" and kept all the character traits, but he had to go for the "eight feet" and take him into the realm of being pretty much impossible. There have been people getting towards that height, but there certainly haven't been any who are anything like physically threatening.

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8 hours ago, mankytoes said:

How do you feel about people pissing on Mussolini's corpse?

Impressed at the strength of their bladders if he was still on the lamppost? :dunno:

 

As to the OP - I was torn; sure Vargo deserved a nasty end, but even so when he got his comeuppance, I didn't feel that Gregor was in any way redeemed.

If there was any two characters that deserved to be locked into a cell together and have the key thrown away, it was those two. I don't think I'd be too bothered about peaking in to see how they are getting along, though once they've started getting hungry I might be tempted to start shouting: THAUTHAGETH!! at them :D

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Despite all his obscenities, the thing that really made me hate Vargo Hoat was the fact that every time I read him speaking I couldn't help but picture the Impressive Clergyman from The Princess Bride. It was such a juxtaposition of images I couldn't reconcile it.

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