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Hoster Tully marrying Lysa to Jon Arryn was a stupid and unnecessary move.


Angel Eyes

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House Tully was already committed to the Rebellion via Catelyn Tully's betrothal to Eddard Stark. He didn't need to double his ties to the Rebels, Jon Arryn wound up not really caring much for his wife, and placing Lysa in the Vale allowed Littlefinger to rise in power and cause a war that would devastate Hoster's Riverlands. Little finger's in the Vale, wouldn't Hoster not want Lysa near such a temptation?

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It wasn't done because Hoster wanted Jon to commit to the current regime. It was because Jon Arryn needed an heir and Lysa was seen as a prime choice of wife since she was known to be fertile. From Hoster's side, it was probably the highest possible match he could make for Lysa. 

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1 hour ago, Makk said:

It wasn't done because Hoster wanted Jon to commit to the current regime. It was because Jon Arryn needed an heir and Lysa was seen as a prime choice of wife since she was known to be fertile. From Hoster's side, it was probably the highest possible match he could make for Lysa. 

I wouldn’t exactly call Lysa fertile, what with five miscarriages and stillbirths.

 

6 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

At the end of the day he was just doing what all Lords do, trying to better his House. Through these marriages his blood will be both Warden of the North, and Warden of the East, and he himself is already Lord Paramount of the Trident. That is quite a move if I do say so myself. 

And that alliance was wasted in the War of the Five Kings when Littlefinger decimated that bloc. 

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

I wouldn’t exactly call Lysa fertile, what with five miscarriages and stillbirths.

Which all happened after she married Jon. They believed she was fertile because she had become pregnant and forced to have an abortion. It is unclear whether all those miscarriages were problems with Jon, her previous abortion, or continued use of moon-tea or other drugs.

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3 minutes ago, Makk said:

Which all happened after she married Jon. They believed she was fertile because she had become pregnant and forced to have an abortion. It is unclear whether all those miscarriages were problems with Jon, her previous abortion, or continued use of moon-tea or other drugs.

Guess I should’ve added a line about Lysa’s fertility being decreased after the abortion.

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

House Tully was already committed to the Rebellion via Catelyn Tully's betrothal to Eddard Stark. He didn't need to double his ties to the Rebels, Jon Arryn wound up not really caring much for his wife, and placing Lysa in the Vale allowed Littlefinger to rise in power and cause a war that would devastate Hoster's Riverlands. Little finger's in the Vale, wouldn't Hoster not want Lysa near such a temptation?

That's absurd and not at all accurate. Catelyn was never betrothed to Eddard, and Hoster, far from being committed to rebellion, stayed out of the war after Brandon and Rickard were murdered. Ned and Jon were desperate for Hoster's swords, and Hoster needed to get rid of his soiled daughter Lysa. So he forced Jon to take her in return for his swords. No need to create a new thead just to state a ridiculous opinion based on inaccurate information.

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

House Tully was already committed to the Rebellion via Catelyn Tully's betrothal to Eddard Stark. He didn't need to double his ties to the Rebels, Jon Arryn wound up not really caring much for his wife, and placing Lysa in the Vale allowed Littlefinger to rise in power and cause a war that would devastate Hoster's Riverlands. Little finger's in the Vale, wouldn't Hoster not want Lysa near such a temptation?

constantly making the very best decisions is rarely a good recipe for drama, adventure and epic stories 

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How is making alliance with a neighboring Kingdom to one of the most prestigious & powerful House a stupid decision? 

It was a great and necessary move,most the other high lords were already married with baby heirs not fit to marry Lysa.His vassals bar Freys aren’t that significant and are all of similar level,making alliances with them won’t harbor any benefits.Freys aren’t a great match either with a lot of people to contend with for his grandson to rule.With his daughters as Lady of North and Vale,which are the neighboring kingdoms,he has valuable allies in time of need.You may think marrying Lysa was just for Tully swords..well it was more than that alliance by marriage are long term,not limited to single warring event.Marriage with most prestigious,ancient and purest of Andal nobility adds more prestige to House Tully .Hoster is ambitious,he was keeping Edmure unmarried really long  in search of other great match.And he was trying,like he invited Arriane Martell to Riverrun.Riverlands is surrounded by all kingdoms bar Dorne.Alliance with one of 5 other neighboring kingdoms is not enough to bring stability and to solidify hold on vassals.

 

 

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Highborn ladies are born to be sold off in marriage markets and Lysa was a damaged product after she lost her virginity. Lysa's best outcome for marriage after that would be some second son to a lesser house. I'll bet Hoster was thrilled when the Lord of the Eyrie, Protector of the Vale and Warden of the East wanted to wed her. His daughter's preference was not his concern. And Westeros society look down on lowborn so no one predicted that Littlefinger could rise to such power in the future.

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Yeah I'm not really getting this idea of Lysha worth having been downgraded for having fucked Little finger-it's not really known she even had premarital sex in the first place, hell likely there's more chance of Catelyn having value being downgraded by the whole incident since Petyr is known to brag about having took Catelyn's virginity(obviously not knowing he had instead been taken advantage of by Lysha). Hell Hoster was negotiating with Tywin to marry Lysha to Jaimie-clearly the whole incident didn't hurt worth in the eyes of society.

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19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah I'm not really getting this idea of Lysha worth having been downgraded for having fucked Little finger-it's not really known she even had premarital sex in the first place, hell likely there's more chance of Catelyn having value being downgraded by the whole incident since Petyr is known to brag about having took Catelyn's virginity(obviously not knowing he had instead been taken advantage of by Lysha). Hell Hoster was negotiating with Tywin to marry Lysha to Jaimie-clearly the whole incident didn't hurt worth in the eyes of society.

Yep Lysa being damaged good is a BS when not even her own sister had any idea of her pregnancy.How would other high lords know? From secret glass candles LoL.Instead she got a great match with person of highest of birth.Her pregnancy was revealed to Jon,who had just lost heir to convince him to marry her.No one seem to be questioning Catelyn honour despite LF’s claims.

 
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8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

House Tully was already committed to the Rebellion via Catelyn Tully's betrothal to Eddard Stark. He didn't need to double his ties to the Rebels, Jon Arryn wound up not really caring much for his wife, and placing Lysa in the Vale allowed Littlefinger to rise in power and cause a war that would devastate Hoster's Riverlands. Little finger's in the Vale, wouldn't Hoster not want Lysa near such a temptation?

Ned & Catelyn, Jon & Lysa were married in the same ceremony.

Your post has a quite heavy dose of presentism, because nobody though much of Littlefinger at that point. Nobody still think much of Littlefinger at the end of AFFC, because he plays a completely different game.

Rising Littlefinger to higher positions was Jon Arryn's mistake. Hoster for all he knew, Littlefinger will remain in the littlest of the fingers caring for a dozen of sheep for the rest of his life.

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Marrying Lysa to Jon Arryn was, in terms of realpolitik, an excellent move. A win win for both parts.

Jon Arryn consolidated the alliance with House TUlly (Ned could have died at any moment during the war, and the Riverlands were essential), and got a wife from a Great House with proven fertility. Meanwhile, Hoster Tully ensured that a nephew of his would be Lord of the Vale, and solved the problem of marrying a deflowered daughter.

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah I'm not really getting this idea of Lysha worth having been downgraded for having fucked Little finger-it's not really known she even had premarital sex in the first place, hell likely there's more chance of Catelyn having value being downgraded by the whole incident since Petyr is known to brag about having took Catelyn's virginity(obviously not knowing he had instead been taken advantage of by Lysha). Hell Hoster was negotiating with Tywin to marry Lysha to Jaimie-clearly the whole incident didn't hurt worth in the eyes of society.

Jaime visited Lysa before the whole Littlefinger incident.

And while Lysa's abortion may be a well-hidden secret, marrying her to some other noble family could be a very dangerous game to play. We know that in Westeros it is tradition that after the bedding ceremony, the guests wait right at the bridal chamber's door. If the groom or the guests notice the lack of blood, it may be problematic. Also, the groom could also learn about it later on. Either because someone from the Tully household revealed it, or because Lysa herself confessed. This could lead to a huge political crisis.

I'm not saying that Hoster couldn't have gotten away with it somehow. It's just that a situation where he could be honest with the groom avoided him lots of headaches.

8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Guess I should’ve added a line about Lysa’s fertility being decreased after the abortion.

When Jon Arryn married Lysa, he was close to sixty and had already had two childless marriages. I don't see why you insist in accusing Lysa of lack of fertility when everything seems to indicate that the blame laid in Jon Arryn's little falcons.

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44 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

And while Lysa's abortion may be a well-hidden secret, marrying her to some other noble family could be a very dangerous game to play. We know that in Westeros it is tradition that after the bedding ceremony, the guests wait right at the bridal chamber's door. If the groom or the guests notice the lack of blood, it may be problematic. Also, the groom could also learn about it later on. Either because someone from the Tully household revealed it, or because Lysa herself confessed. This could lead to a huge political crisis.

I'm not saying that Hoster couldn't ha

its relatively known women and girls can break their hymen doing something as something horseback riding checking for blood is archaic and dumb even in this medeval society.

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53 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

When Jon Arryn married Lysa, he was close to sixty and had already had two childless marriages. I don't see why you insist in accusing Lysa of lack of fertility when everything seems to indicate that the blame laid in Jon Arryn's little falcons.

The guy sired a child on one of his wives-the child was still-born but he's a track record of not being sterile. Perhaps there  was something that was wrong with his equipment but I don't really see his dilemma with Lysha being one where one party can be definitely stated for why there's less Arryns running around.

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54 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

its relatively known women and girls can break their hymen doing something as something horseback riding checking for blood is archaic and dumb even in this medeval society.

There's a remark about this in Cersei VI in AFFC. 

Now, this is all thinking in hindsight

8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That's absurd and not at all accurate. Catelyn was never betrothed to Eddard, and Hoster, far from being committed to rebellion, stayed out of the war after Brandon and Rickard were murdered. Ned and Jon were desperate for Hoster's swords, and Hoster needed to get rid of his soiled daughter Lysa. So he forced Jon to take her in return for his swords. No need to create a new thead just to state a ridiculous opinion based on inaccurate information.

What I mean is that after Brandon was killed by the Mad King, Catelyn was promised to Ned. The other question I'm trying to answer is why Jon Arryn in particular

 

7 hours ago, Lordth said:

How is making alliance with a neighboring Kingdom to one of the most prestigious & powerful House a stupid decision? 

It was a great and necessary move,most the other high lords were already married with baby heirs not fit to marry Lysa.His vassals bar Freys aren’t that significant and are all of similar level,making alliances with them won’t harbor any benefits.Freys aren’t a great match either with a lot of people to contend with for his grandson to rule.With his daughters as Lady of North and Vale,which are the neighboring kingdoms,he has valuable allies in time of need.You may think marrying Lysa was just for Tully swords..well it was more than that alliance by marriage are long term,not limited to single warring event.Marriage with most prestigious,ancient and purest of Andal nobility adds more prestige to House Tully .Hoster is ambitious,he was keeping Edmure unmarried really long  in search of other great match.And he was trying,like he invited Arriane Martell to Riverrun.Riverlands is surrounded by all kingdoms bar Dorne.Alliance with one of 5 other neighboring kingdoms is not enough to bring stability and to solidify hold on vassals.

 

 

It's the fallout from said arranged marriage that causes trouble. 

 

I just think it's a dumb move in hindsight considering how it set up the War of the Five Kings.

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

its relatively known women and girls can break their hymen doing something as something horseback riding checking for blood is archaic and dumb even in this medeval society.

It may be archaic and dumb, but noble lords care about it. Verifying the blood after the first night is a practice still followed nowadays in many cultures: Armenians, Georgians, Gypsies, Kanjarbhati, Tongans,...

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

There's a remark about this in Cersei VI in AFFC.

Exactly. The quote is:

When she wed Lord Renly at Highgarden, I helped disrobe him for the bedding. His lordship was a well-made man, and lusty. I saw the proof when we tumbled him into the wedding bed where his bride awaited him as naked as her name day, blushing prettily beneath the coverlets. Ser Loras had carried her up the steps himself. Margaery may say that the marriage was never consummated, that Lord Renly had drunk too much wine at the weddingfeast, but I promise you, the bit between his legs was anything but weary when last I saw it.”
“Did you chance to see the marriage bed the morning after?” Cersei asked. “Did she bleed?”
“No sheet was shown, Your Grace.”
A pity. Still, the absence of a bloody sheet meant little, by itself. Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord’s daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk.

Which shows that people is attentive of what the issue, and that there's some degree of expectation that bloddy sheet is shown.

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I just think it's a dumb move in hindsight considering how it set up the War of the Five Kings.

 

What set the War of the Five Kings is Cersei having three kids with Jaime. From this point, it was only a matter of time that a war escalated. Jon Arryn had just found out, and he was poisoned by Lysa precisely because he was planning to send little Robert to Dragonstone to protect him from the war that he was sure that the revelation would unleash. So, if anything, war would have happened earlier.

But anyway, using hindsight to evaluate a decision is cheating. We have to judge people's actions taking account the information they were privy to at the moment. But if we are to use hindsight, the only thing that was needed here was that Hoster had told Jon the identity of the man who betrayed his trust and deflowered his daughter. With this knowledge, surely Jon Arryn wouldn't have trusted Littlefinger and brought him to court. Hoster really dropped the ball with that.

 

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:
3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

It may be archaic and dumb, but noble lords care about it. Verifying the blood after the first night is a practice still followed nowadays in many cultures: Armenians, G

It is archaic and dumb and noble lords generally recognize it as such-listing cultures to which do believe such testing doesn't mean in Westeroes that's generally a sentiment held by significant faction of lords.

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord’s daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk

This part is key here-even Cersi(as she desparately wants to destroy the Tyrells), doesn't really recognize a high-born girl not really bleeding upon having proof inter-course as proof of it being her first time doing so-it'd be viewed as odd quite frankly if a perfectly healthy noblewoman to bleed in such a way. 

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