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Jon and Bran - a Shared Dream, Direwolves and More


bemused

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15 hours ago, Kienn said:

I have to disagree with your conclusion that Summer is the wolf that Ghost can’t sense in DWD Jon I...

As you quoted and underlined yourself:

On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

To me it seems clear that the wolf Ghost cannot sense is Grey Wind. The larger passage is partially a callback to SoS Bran I:

“He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back . . . all but the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.”

In SoS Summer recaps his siblings and notes Lady’s missing. In DWD Ghost does the same for Grey Wind.

This is also clear because Jon notes that “Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead”.

Jon is interpreting Ghost being unable to sense Grey Wind as Ghost knowing that Grey Wind is dead.

 I'm afraid we'll have to remain in disagreement. :) I admire the way you pulled all the information together in your thread, but I'm sticking to my guns.

In your quote from ASOS, Bran 1, (which I had forgotten, so thanks for raising it): 

It's not just a partial callback ... it's a direct comparison, and perhaps the greatest similarity is in the form of the passage, and - Four. And one. The form leads us to think they're exactly the same, but they're really not...

GRRM is playing with language again.

 "Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice." ..That's four who have voices and one more who has no voice, which still includes Ghost as a sibling, part of the pack. Why should Summer expect to feel the far off presence of some other unattached wolf? There used to be five who had voices and one who didn't... now there are four. (Of course Summer includes himself.)

It's the often overlooked differences between the  passages that are telling.

Summer feels the presence of his siblings at his back (he knows they're alive in the world) but it's clear he can't see what they're doing, hear them, know what they've been doing at other times. Ghost can - because he has a connection to the weirnet. Because that connection exists (it must, since there's no other explanation for such amazing detail) Jon is not interpreting Ghost's perceptions in light of what he (Jon) has been told, IMO. ... Jon knows what Ghost knows (and the thought comes to him while he's thinking of the dream, not after whatever conversation informed him about Robb).

If Ghost has an expanded awareness of his siblings through a greenseer , he surely can know of Grey Wind's death (and Lady's). What he discerns of Summer is very slight, compared to what he knows of Shaggy and Nymeria, and as soon as he begins to get a sense of Summer , Mormont's raven is waking Jon in something of a panic.

Someone (not the wall) is trying to block Jon's knowledge of Bran's and Summer's location and circumstances, just barely successfully.

And of course Ghost, like Summer, includes himself in his enumeration of the pack. They are all siblings.  There were six, now there are four... and one of the four..

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13 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I disagree with certain of your premises. For one, it is an assumption that the Children who are melding into the weirwood are in fact greenseers. What are they doing then? Jojen told Bran that the weirwoods act as a database for the Children. So this would be them uploading themselves, experiences and knowledge into the trees. Presumably they are old and dying and are getting to their final resting place.

For another there is nothing to say that Bran was not capable of influencing dreams during his time in the crypts. So far as it seems Bloodraven is not giving him abilities but helping him to develop those he already has.

Other than that the idea of another player on the "psychic plane" cannot be excluded, though Bran's ability to sense the "shade" for lack of a better word seems to speak against it. I don't see any particular evidence in that direction. The dreams or rather visions are symbolic by nature because they are representations of something that is meant to be intangible. 

I think it's a correct assumption that all the children Bran sees enthroned like Bloodraven are greenseers. Greenseers, alone are" wed to the tree". Those who are only greendreamers, or only skinchangers, or those without any of those gifts, are present in the bones stacked, piled and littering the cave. ... Before they become incapable of speech, part of their function would be to share knowledge with the living who could not connect. 

Look how Bloodraven's life has been extended.. The singers already have a much greater lifespan than men ... who knows what those ones who are still aware are capable of ?

From Bran II... 

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 "Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

 

The roots of the trees above have grown around them all - birds, beasts, men, giants, children - but they're not greenseers. 

From Bran III... 

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 He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling. He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. 

and... 

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The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill.

Greenseers are rare, but those not so gifted, who cannot be wed to the tree, want to be as close as possible to their gods (the trees) in death .

I agree that Bloodraven is helping Bran to develop the abilities he has (not bestowing them). So, I agree that Bran, while in the crypts, may well be capable of entering and influencing dreams like Bloodraven - but he hasn't yet learned how. His third eye has just opened , and Jojen is having to teach him not to stay skinchanged for too long ... he needs to take care of his human body.

Bran is a human. Ghost is a wolf. Bran has never felt a "shade" inside himself , but senses one inside the raven. Bran knows the difference between the two states. Ghost would not know the difference because "Greenseer X" has always been there as far as he knows - just a part of his sense of self.

These dreams are not completely symbolic - only in part.

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On 9/19/2018 at 1:49 AM, bemused said:

Speculation going forward : There could be interesting implications for Jon in the future if this arrangement should be correct. While I think this is somewhat different from the usual skinchanger's second life (by virtue of simultaneously being part of the weirnet) there are still some similarities. Going back to Varamyr speaking to Jon in ASOS, Jon X ... Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you.... A hint of future symbiosis between Jon and the old gods, existing, waiting in Ghost ? .. Echoing the symbiosis I detect between Jon and the magic of the wall ? Surely at least a strong sense of Bran and his motives through the weirnet ?

You have in my opinion done a good job of bringing information forward. Back when I was a lurker I gleaned a lot of information from your posts.  A pleasure reading your insights as usual.

Disclosure:  My simplistic views often get me in chatter trouble. I'm not one for long drawn out conversations.

Until martin wrote the DwD prologue I really had no what martin's idea of a warg and skinchanger was. All I knew was that some of Stark kids had more than unusual dreams.

I frequently became annoyed with the layout of martins chapters. The flipping back and forth drove me bonkers.

The Jon/Ghost and Bran/Summer shared dream is about warging. The wolf and the human experience is mingled together. Which in my opinion is why Arya/Nymeria sensed dead Cat.

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue   "They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."/

My understanding of a second life is that a skinchanger and/or warg is the human and when the human dies part of it is stuck inside the animal. The human spirit dissipates and eventually the animal dies its death.

I'm gonna say this flat out ---- my opinion is that Bran is not a time traveler---- martin trying to be cutesy, staged his chapters in incongruous order.

:grouphug::cheers: and thanks for an interesting read.

 

 

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On 9/19/2018 at 12:49 AM, bemused said:

The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

In this dream Bran is in the weirwood and he opened Jon's third eye right?  This happened in book 2, and Bran first taps into the weirwood halfway through book 5, so how is this not time travel?  At this point in Clash of Kings did Bran even know that the weirwood was a magical entity and could allow him to communicate through dreams?  He thought the 3 eyed crow was a wizard up until book 5. 

Also, if this is book 2 current Bran, when did he learn to open people's third eye?  How did he even know this was a possibility?  That seems like a pretty advanced skill for a 10 year old boy.  He would have assumed this was only something the 3 eyed crow could do, why would he think otherwise?

Here we have a confirmed instance of Bran opening someone's third eye.  But Bloodraven never mentions opening your third eye to Bran in the cave, nor does he take credit for opening Bran's third eye, what Bloodraven does say to Bran is:

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I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell.

Bran's first falling dream:

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At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

All Bloodraven did was watch through the tree, he did not interact.  In that same dream where the weirwood only watched, the 3 eyed crow interacted, it talked to Bran and pecked his third eye open.  Since Bloodraven did not take credit for opening Bran's third eye, we should default to the only known character that has opened someone's third eye and that is Bran himself--from inside the network from some point in the future.

 

Also, in Bran's very first journey into the weirwood network he calls his father's name and his father responds, then Leaf and Bloodraven immediately tell him that he shouldn't try to raise the dead and he cannot change the past and he was mistaken that Ned only heard the wind--why were they so quick to stamp out those ideas and tell him they are impossible?  And why should we believe them?  They just killed Jojen, drained his blood, mixed that with some crushed weirwood root, gave it to Bran, and said "here eat this."  Seems pretty sketchy to me.

 

When I mentioned Bran escaping from Bloodraven's cave earlier I was thinking of this line from Arya:

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She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood.

 

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2 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Also, if this is book 2 current Bran, when did he learn to open people's third eye?  How did he even know this was a possibility?  That seems like a pretty advanced skill for a 10 year old boy.  He would have assumed this was only something the 3 eyed crow could do, why would he think otherwise?

For a long time I was convinced that it was not Bran reaching back, but the dreams reaching forward - after all, we know all about prophetic dreams, and Jon's third eye is definitely shut; he can't see into men's hearts, that's for sure.

But then I remembered that Bran got his third eye from the crow, but had to go to the greenseer to learn to open it. So, back to square one on that one.

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2 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In this dream Bran is in the weirwood and he opened Jon's third eye right?  This happened in book 2, and Bran first taps into the weirwood halfway through book 5, so how is this not time travel?  At this point in Clash of Kings did Bran even know that the weirwood was a magical entity and could allow him to communicate through dreams?  He thought the 3 eyed crow was a wizard up until book 5. 

No, I don't think this is right .... It's all in the OP. Did you read it? 
I think Bloodraven co-ordinated the dreams.... 

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Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that. ... ACoK, Bran VII

Bran has just wakened from his wolf dream ... but once he had even dreamed of Jon and Ghost. Once. Not in this dream, but in one he already had... so I think that Bloodraven sent Bran the dream showing him himself as a tree with his face.. Then he shows the dream to Jon (not necessarily exactly at the same time ). Bran thinks of them separately... he touches Ghost and talks to Jon (he doesn't think of them as Jon-in-Ghost). In Jon's dream the wolf cannot be Ghost, because Ghost is miles away (actually, probably making his way back, wounded, after having been attacked).

But look, I can see you have some very set opinions and on many, we absolutely will never be able to agree..

I don't believe in Jojen paste, for good reason, and I won't waste my time discussing it anymore.

I think Brynden is the 3EC and that there's ample reason to believe it.

I don't think Bran is all the Brans that ever were.

Of course Leaf and BR would tell Bran he cannot change the past (when they probably really mean should not) and rightly warn him against calling back the dead. He has power, but he's a young boy.. they are aware of the harm he could cause by using his power because he wants to, instead of when he needs to. However much of a prodigy you are, you don't go from primary school straight to your doctorate. You do need to to some maturing and accept a little guidance.

At the same time Bloodraven has given him a hint of what he will be able to do, if he sent Bran the Bran-as-a-weirwood dream .. in the Reek Theon chapters (a bit ahead in time)  we see Bran beginning to reach Theon and causing his face to be superimposed on the heart tree.

Bloodraven touched Jon in the dream.. but he made sure Bran dreamed  (and therefore believed)he could do these things.

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1 hour ago, bemused said:

Of course Leaf and BR would tell Bran he cannot change the past (when they probably really mean should not) and rightly warn him against calling back the dead

I wholeheartedly agree w/ your whole post. 

And I'd like to add one bit here, pertaining to the part I quoted above.

Leaf doesn't tell Bran he can't do it, but rather warns him not to try.

“Bran’s throat was very dry. He swallowed. “Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He’s not dead, he’s not, I saw him, he’s back at Winterfell, he’s still alive.”
“No,” said Leaf. “He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.”

And the reason is quite clear... undead zombies are unnatural. Cheating death is against the laws of nature. 

Valar Morghulis

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6 hours ago, bemused said:

I think Bloodraven co-ordinated the dreams.... 

Bran has just wakened from his wolf dream ... but once he had even dreamed of Jon and Ghost. Once. Not in this dream, but in one he already had... so I think that Bloodraven sent Bran the dream showing him himself as a tree with his face.. Then he shows the dream to Jon (not necessarily exactly at the same time ). Bran thinks of them separately... he touches Ghost and talks to Jon (he doesn't think of them as Jon-in-Ghost). In Jon's dream the wolf cannot be Ghost, because Ghost is miles away (actually, probably making his way back, wounded, after having been attacked).

At the same time Bloodraven has given him a hint of what he will be able to do, if he sent Bran the Bran-as-a-weirwood dream .. in the Reek Theon chapters (a bit ahead in time)  we see Bran beginning to reach Theon and causing his face to be superimposed on the heart tree.

Bloodraven touched Jon in the dream.. but he made sure Bran dreamed  (and therefore believed)he could do these things.

I want to first note the irony that you called me a dogmatist then said that you will engage in no further discussion on Jojen paste because the matter is settled.  I have listened to J.S, Mills' On Liberty over a 100 times, "To refuse a hearing to an opinion, because they are sure that it is false, is to assume that their certainty is the same thing as absolute certainty. All silencing of discussion is an assumption of infallibility."  

None of these ideas are my own, I just read a lot of other people's ideas and try to make a coherent narrative out of it all.  If you have something that tells a better story, explains more mysteries, or makes a good prediction, then I will incorporate it and change my understanding of the story--I do it like 20 times every day.

However your explanation about these dreams is pretty convoluted, and raises more questions than it answers.  Give me the text that suggests Bloodraven was in any way involved in these events, or is even capable of sending dreams where he does more than observe or maybe say someone's name.  Some people argue that Bloodraven sent Jojen dreams and that is what sent the gang north of the wall, but Jojen only dreams of the 3ec and didn't know what it meant and it is Howland that sends them north.  "When Jojen told our lord father what he'd dreamed, he sent us to Winterfell."  Howland who has a mysterious connection to the Isle of Faces, and the Old Gods.

The 3ec dreams seemed to just be broadcast out in the dreamworld and anyone who could have greendreams picked up on them.  Euron, Jojen, Bran, and the thousand other dreamers who were impaled on ice spears--they all received the dream, only three that we know of passed the test and did not die in their sleep because of these dreams.

If Bloodraven wanted to touch Jon to awaken his gift, why was it the weirwood sapling Bran that he interacted with and not a full-sized tree that smelled like old man?  What was the point of pretending to be Bran?

In Jon's dream he is Ghost, the weirwood sapling is Bran, Ghost can smell Bran, weirwood, Summer, but Ghost can also smell "something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs."  Now if you are arguing the Bloodraven is Death, then I could get on board.  But I rather think it is future Bran that smells like Death.  

 

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And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me.

Bran flat out says the 3 eyed crow and the weirwood-that-watches are separate entities, that appear in the same dream as two different characters.  And that the tree creeps him out but the crow does not.

 

Occam's razor suggests that is wasn't Bloodraven that sent dreams to Bran and Jon, and impersonated Bran and touched Jon/Ghost, but rather it was Bran who touched Jon/Ghost from inside the weirwood, and book 2 Bran caught the vaguest hint of the event in the dreamworld.  Since he doesn't recall it as vividly as his wolf dreams, we are led to think there is something else going on.

 

Last note on Jojen paste.  If you were reading a story where some people live in a cave with thousands of skeletons piled up everywhere, gave a character a piece of meat, and he said "what's this?" and they said "just eat it" then on the last page of the book he finds that his dog is missing, and the book ends on that cliffhanger, would it not be a fair assumption by the reader to think he had been fed his dog?  And to leave the reader with a feeling of "oh shit, get out of there!"

Makes me think of the phrase "to serve the realm" could be a reference to the Twilight Zone episode where "to serve man" is a cookbook on how to eat man, not a manual on how to attend to the humans' needs.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

For a long time I was convinced that it was not Bran reaching back, but the dreams reaching forward - after all, we know all about prophetic dreams, and Jon's third eye is definitely shut; he can't see into men's hearts, that's for sure.

But then I remembered that Bran got his third eye from the crow, but had to go to the greenseer to learn to open it. So, back to square one on that one.

11 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In this dream Bran is in the weirwood and he opened Jon's third eye right?  This happened in book 2, and Bran first taps into the weirwood halfway through book 5, so how is this not time travel?  At this point in Clash of Kings did Bran even know that the weirwood was a magical entity and could allow him to communicate through dreams?  He thought the 3 eyed crow was a wizard up until book 5. 

Also, if this is book 2 current Bran, when did he learn to open people's third eye?  How did he even know this was a possibility?  That seems like a pretty advanced skill for a 10 year old boy.  He would have assumed this was only something the 3 eyed crow could do, why would he think otherwise?

 

This is so interesting.  I am in a similar boat where for a long time I felt like it was time travel, and then upon reread I changed my mind that it was present Bran.  Perhaps it has something to do with the Crypts, which seem to have some kind of weird connection with Jon who is constantly dreaming of them.  Because Bran is there, he is able to more easily connect with Jon in the "dreamworld," because Jon is dreaming of the Crypts in the first place?  But now @By Odin's Beard makes the point about the advanced level of green-seeing magic or whatever you want to call it of "opening someone's third eye" and I do find myself questioning how and why Book 2 Bran would remotely know how to do that.  Is it possible he's just taking his prior experiences up to that point and subconsciously applying them to Jon in the dreamworld?  His experiences with the 3EC up to that point may have given him like a roadmap to how to open one's third eye?

I don't know, I'm just rambling here :P.  Good thread @bemused and thanks for posting it and gathering your thoughts.  I have to reread through the entire thread now :cheers:.

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On 9/19/2018 at 3:43 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I always find it so interesting that difference people can read the same passage come up with different conclusions. When I read that passage, it reminded me of the caves from the Gendel and Gorne story. 

(Hello, new incarnation):)

I feel sure that Gendel and Gorne story is going to come to something, in light of Bran/Hodor's explorations... what, exactly, I don't know....   

On 9/20/2018 at 5:21 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

My understanding of a second life is that a skinchanger and/or warg is the human and when the human dies part of it is stuck inside the animal. The human spirit dissipates and eventually the animal dies its death.

I'm gonna say this flat out ---- my opinion is that Bran is not a time traveler---- martin trying to be cutesy, staged his chapters in incongruous order.

Yes, except Varamyr adds a wrinkle by saying... "But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you" ... In Varamyr the man, not just when he skinchanges the eagle. ... So if my Greenseer X speculation proves out, Jon's "intuition" could be enhanced greatly once he joins fully with Ghost.    ...??...

I'm, oh ... 99.9% with you on Bran and time travel ... but because GRRM allows for the possibility (albeit incorporeal), there is a chance someone may try to make some alterations , or may have done at some time. ... but if so, my bet is that it's to disastrous effect. 

Martin loves to be incongruous in so many ways.

12 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I want to first note the irony that you called me a dogmatist then said that you will engage in no further discussion on Jojen paste because the matter is settled.

"Dogmatist" crossed neither my lips, nor the tips of my fingers. I didn't intend for you to take my comment personally. But I see you haven't been on this site very long, unless you're a long time lurker or under a new ID... so let me explain.

I've read so many of the Jojen paste threads (more than I would have thought possible) and I've engaged in discussion on quite a few. I remain unconviced, feeling the whole theory is based on very slim evidence and a lot of ghoulish supposition. Jojen is never said to have disappeared (unlike Tyrek,e.g.). 

I doubt there's anything new to be said that could convince me (except further input from the author) - I've already heard it all. I hate the thought of rehashing it all yet again and (politely) hope that anyone who wants to do that will start their own thread and not hijack this one.

I also never said "the matter is settled". Obviously, it's not. It is settled in my opinion for now... (I may hope forever, but that's up to George-the -creator.)

J.S.Mills surely cannot mean we should be open to hearing the same opinions and arguments (that have so far failed to convince us) over and over, ad infinitum, without any new evidence or logic that might change our minds. At some point, we must be entitled to form at least a tentative or interim judgement. ...There won't be any new evidence or information until GRRM writes it. When he does, it may change my perceptions and I'll be willing to discuss it .

12 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

However your explanation about these dreams is pretty convoluted, and raises more questions than it answers.

I know it's involved (as I think I alluded to at the outset) and it may raise questions (not always a bad thing) ... but for me, it solves the problem with time apparent in the last segment of Jon's ACOK dream. 

In this case, among others, the formula I often find most helpful in reading GRRM is Arthur Conan Doyle's - "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth".  

 Occam's Razor frequently loses its edge when you're reading an author so in love with incongruity, misdirection, secrets and puzzles (both short term and series spanning).

Like @kissdbyfire before me, I have to say (and I paraphrase) Wow.... Your take on these novels is almost directly opposed to my own.

 

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13 hours ago, bemused said:

(Hello, new incarnation):)

It's from Schitt's Creek. Catherine O'Hara is hilarious in it.

13 hours ago, bemused said:

 I feel sure that Gendel and Gorne story is going to come to something, in light of Bran/Hodor's explorations... what, exactly, I don't know....   

I think the story is an important one as well. I don't believe we know if that tunnel was ever sealed or not. Beyond this, though, it seems like the caves in Westeros may be connected together.

Spoiler

We have the description of the cave in the rainwood in the Arianne sample chapter, which sounds exactly like Bloodraven's cave.

I don't know if this is outside the scope of your thread @bemused, but I was wondering if there is a magical connection that exists between the Starks (the male Starks more specifically) and the crypts.

There are Jon's recurring crypt dreams, including the one he has of a savaged Grey Wind and the feast going on up above him that sounds a whole lot like the Red Wedding (Jon VIII, ASOS 64) before he ever finds out that Robb was killed.

Ned has a crypt dream back in Eddard XIII, AGoT 47, where he dreams that he walking there while the kings of winter watch him pass by culminating with Lyanna's plea to make her that pesky promise.

Bran and Rickon both have the same dream of Ned in the crypts after his execution (Bran VII, AGoT 66). We don't know what kind of conversation Rickon and Ned had, but Bran tells us that Ned told him something about Jon and that he was sad. This thing between Bran and Ned seems to be on a whole different playing field since Ned had already died and the news of his death arrived at the end of that chapter.

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Interesting thread. I'm not really convinced by a lot of it, though. I think it's smarter to keep things simple.

Bran certainly contacted Jon while in the Winterfell crypts, no time travel needed. Bran reminds himself of the contact immediately after he returns to his own body. (The reason he thought he might have dreamed it was that he had an indirect connection Bran>Summer>Ghost>Jon, and the Ghost>Jon connection was weak.) The simple explanation - Bran is an incredibly powerful greenseer who does not know his limitations. Later, as Jojen and Bloodraven tell him what he can do, he limits himself to doing only those things. In his first experience, however, he doesn't know he's not supposed to be able to reach Jon through Ghost, so he does. Neither Jojen nor Bloodraven realize how powerful Bran is.

As for appearing to Jon/Ghost as a weirwood ...   When Bran and Co finally meet Bloodraven, Bran asks if he is the 3EC. Bloodraven doesn't understand the question. Yet both Bran and Jojen dreamed of the 3EC. Conclusion - Bloodraven indeed contacted Bran and Jojen, but doesn't understand that in other people's dreams he appears as a three-eyed crow. Likewise, Bran's dream avatar is a young weirwood, but Bran doesn't understand that - he doesn't send dreams to himself. He appears to Arya/Nymeria as a weirwood, also.

The direwolves appear to have their own 'Wolf Net", but how well it works depends on how powerful the warg is. Jon has not yet acknowledged that he is a warg, so Jon/Ghost is limited. Arya has abilities that even Bran hasn't demonstrated yet.

Also, I would not put much credence into detailed calculations of time and distance, because I'm sure GRRM didn't. He deliberately keeps these matters quite vague, and still screws up quite a bit.

As to the Bloodrave/3EC question, that just a matter of story evolution. The 3EC was invented quite early in the writing. The Great Bastards and the Blackfyre rebellions are not mentioned until Storm, and then only in passing. GRRM probably didn't invent Bloodraven until 1999 (he doesn't appear in The Hedge Knight in 1998) and then he merged the two characters.

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16 hours ago, bemused said:

Yes, except Varamyr adds a wrinkle by saying... "But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you" ... In Varamyr the man, not just when he skinchanges the eagle. ... So if my Greenseer X speculation proves out, Jon's "intuition" could be enhanced greatly once he joins fully with Ghost.    ...??...

I'm, oh ... 99.9% with you on Bran and time travel ... but because GRRM allows for the possibility (albeit incorporeal), there is a chance someone may try to make some alterations , or may have done at some time. ... but if so, my bet is that it's to disastrous effect. 

Martin loves to be incongruous in so many ways

Hi ya.  Good point. I don't know if I can articulate my thoughts but I''ll give it a go. Instead of using the quote function I'll bold the lines of your text and explain my thoughts after.

But the joining works both ways, warg:      Varamyr is naming Jon a warg.   The wolf incorporates the warg essence. As a aside, I have difficulty with some of Jon's wolf dreams because at times I have trouble deciding if the dialogue is coming through Jon or Ghost or a combination of both.

Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you":      Varamyr is a warg & a skinchanger who can handle more than one animal at a time.  Varamyr, Jon and Bran each experienced the pain their animals felt.  Neither Jon nor Bran mentioned feeling another entity.

Bran  like Varamyr is in a different category than Jon.   At first Bran experienced wolf dreams (and other dreams like when Bran talked to Luwin about whether trees dream).   Bran can now reach Summer while Bran is awake. Jon only has the dreams. Bran is also a skinchanger. Bran slipped his skin and mingled with the raven and discovered there was leftover essence of a singer still lingering in the raven.

So if my Greenseer X speculation proves out, Jon's "intuition" could be enhanced greatly once he joins fully with Ghost.    ...??...     I do agree that Jon's "intuition" could be enhanced if and when Jon fully accepts his bond with Ghost.  I have a dilemma with Mormont's raven.  That bird is way to smart.

:lol: I edited myself pretty good. I had typed up close to two pages.  :idea:maybe I can fit it in other replies. :)

 

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6 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's from Schitt's Creek. Catherine O'Hara is hilarious in it.

Catherine O'Hara is hilarious, full stop. :P

I adore her. Just re-watched Beetlejuice, and she's so awesome in it! The scene where they just up and start dancing the mambo is priceless. I have no idea why I said the mambo, I just watched the film! It's so much better, it's Harry Belafonte's Day-O!!! 

sorry, so totally OT but I couldn't help it. :blush:

6 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

As to the Bloodrave/3EC question, that just a matter of story evolution. The 3EC was invented quite early in the writing. The Great Bastards and the Blackfyre rebellions are not mentioned until Storm, and then only in passing. GRRM probably didn't invent Bloodraven until 1999 (he doesn't appear in The Hedge Knight in 1998) and then he merged the two characters.

:agree:

Isn't there an interview where Martin talks about this? Or maybe it's one of Ran and Linda's videos, I'm  foggy on the details. But yeah, either Martin or E&L say that Martin knew he wanted the character (3EC) to have some Targ connection. But hadn't fleshed anything out in detail. And later on - not sure if much later - he decided on Brynden Bloodraven Rivers and developed the character more. 

Or am I making all this up? :wacko:

Maybe @Ran can chime in?

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Hi bemused, we've corresponded before on threads and  I have always appreciated your thoughts and theories.  You try to tackle things that Haven't been rehashed forever but still are grounded in evidence. I Haven't been to this forum with any consistency for a few years so was pleased to see you had recently started a thread.

I love your Greenseer X theory and hope it bears out, as who could not help wondering what all those half-dead Greenseers were communing about and with whom when the fate of the world seems at stake and imminent?  They can't leave everything to Bloodraven.  I'm not sure what their end-goal is but for now interests seem aligned so I'm assuming their interference has been all for the good?

I want your thoughts on berserking  because it seems to me a neglected topic and might modify this a bit.  When I say berserking, I mean when an animal skinchanges a human.  We've seen a few occasions of it, though not called that, with Jon I think, and when Jorah won that tournament to win his bride, and I think Targs might be pretty susceptible if the number of them believing they really are dragons or going mad is true.  Dragons are exceptionally strong-willed, of course, but Ghost seems very unusual, and actually a bit mysterious, and I've wondered from time to time whether he might be the greenseer of the two!  Greenseer X, however, is a great explanation - just wondered if you had considered the other.

Also, forgive me if I Didn't follow your whole argument - the time aspects were a bit beyond me because It's been a long time since I read the texts.

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But yeah, either Martin or E&L say that Martin knew he wanted the character (3EC) to have some Targ connection. But hadn't fleshed anything out in detail. And later on - not sure if much later - he decided on Brynden Bloodraven Rivers and developed the character more.

I'd also like to know if there's any official word on that , because I was meaning to come back to @By Odin's Beard on this (didn't have time or energy to post as much as I would have liked to last night). 

 Bloodraven's raven connections are numerous (Raven's Teeth, Blackwood heart tree, Mormon't's raven .... Ravens and crows are corvids ... GRRM writes in the phrase "said the raven to the crow"... you get the picture.

I had to check my memory, but here's what Jojen says in ACOK, Bran III... 

Quote

"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

"Did the crow have three eyes?"

Jojen nodded.

...and later... 

Quote

"You are the winged wolf, Bran," said Jojen. "I wasn't sure when we first came, but now I am. The crow sent us here to break your chains."

Then in Bran IV... 

Quote

 

The crow is in the north."

"At the Wall?" Bran had always wanted to see the Wall. His bastard brother Jon was there now, a man of the Night's Watch.

"Beyond the Wall." Meera Reed hung the net from her belt. "When Jojen told our lord father what he'd dreamed, he sent us to Winterfell."

 

.. To me this clearly means that the 3EC ,first, wanted to send Jojen to Bran and Howland agreed after hearing the dream, sending Meera as well for safety.

I don't know what would rule out BR being both the 3EC and the weirwood in Bran's dreams. After all, it only mirrors what he is capable of in the physical world. (Back in the day, he was rumoured to be a shape shifter and we know he could work glamours.) 

Quote

Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt...   ...TMK

Some might be tales, but we know some are true, and some may just be garbled versions of the truth... and this dream from ACOK, Bran II... 

Quote

 

On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

 

... is a pretty accurate picture of what we've seen of Brynden's situation ... He's bound to the tree (and it's network) - through which he can see, but can simultaneously fly as Mormont's raven (and others).

13 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Bran certainly contacted Jon while in the Winterfell crypts, no time travel needed. Bran reminds himself of the contact immediately after he returns to his own body. (The reason he thought he might have dreamed it was that he had an indirect connection Bran>Summer>Ghost>Jon, and the Ghost>Jon connection was weak.)

...except that he knows he didn't dream it in the wolf dream he just had, because he thinks "Once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon... etc." That means in a previous dream that he thinks may not have been a wolf dream..

I do like the avatar idea, though.

There's a lot more I'd like to reply to, but not tonight - I'm zonking.

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Ohmigod! I had to come back...

37 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Hi bemused, we've corresponded before on threads

Yeah, I remember, though not what we talked about... But I'm giggling like a fool here , because some people on this board will know I had a very long thread on Jon and berserking (now archived) and they might think you're my plant in the audience.;)

Here it is, (if you like)...   

Some thoughts have expanded a bit since then and I'll be happy to discuss whe I'm not falling asleep.

Later

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33 minutes ago, bemused said:

Ohmigod! I had to come back...

Yeah, I remember, though not what we talked about... But I'm giggling like a fool here , because some people on this board will know I had a very long thread on Jon and berserking (now archived) and they might think you're my plant in the audience.;)

Here it is, (if you like)...   

Some thoughts have expanded a bit since then and I'll be happy to discuss whe I'm not falling asleep.

Later

Oh fun, I just skimmed through it.  Agree it is wolf's blood in Jon, because Jorah Mormont has a similar experience, where I imagine It's bear's blood, at the tournament. Another interesting one is four year old Rhaenys Targaryan, who gets stabbed 50 times by Lorch because she goes absolutely berserk. She's either possessed by her cat or her dragon blood - I suspect a scared and enraged cat the size of a four year old would be quite the challenge to kill, and add a little dragon blood? Who knows, but it was an extraordinary occurrence, a full grown knight unable to restrain or stab quickly a four year old.  It seemed like it still frightened him when he talked about it.

But going back on topic, or close to it, if an animal mind/spirit can enter (skinchange) a human in moments of fear, rage or desperation, could it do so in calmer times as well?  Ghost has the colouring of a weirwood and Bloodraven, actually.  Could Ghost be skinchanging Jon at times and as an animal greenseer? be in direct connection with the weirnet in total instead of just one Greenseer X?  I'm just wondering if It's possible or if it would not fit at all with all the dreams you've quoted.

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3 hours ago, bemused said:

I'd also like to know if there's any official word on that , because I was meaning to come back to @By Odin's Beard on this (didn't have time or energy to post as much as I would have liked to last night). 

I was thinking about this last night, and I don't think there's anything official from Martin confirming that Bloodraven is the 3EC. Not that I think such confirmation is necessary, mind you! :D

But if Martin had confirmed this, there wouldn't be so many "theories" on who is the 3EC, right? So, I'm thinking it was something in one of Ran and Linda's videos. I do recall the talk about Martin knowing/wanting for the 3EC to have something to do w/ the Targs, and that the character Bloodraven was fleshed out a bit later on. I will try to find it after work today, and if I do I'll link it here. 

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17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn't there an interview where Martin talks about this? Or maybe it's one of Ran and Linda's videos

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm thinking it was something in one of Ran and Linda's videos.

 

Here's the video in question.

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