Jon and Bran - a Shared Dream, Direwolves and More

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Ckram said:

 

Here's the video in question.

I don't think that's the one I was thinking about... haven't watched it yet (at work) but that's a video on an episode of the abomination, and I never touch any of that stuff w/ a barge pole!

ETA: Damn! I stand corrected, I think that's the one. Or at the very least Ran says the exact same thing I remembered...

[Ckram]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

that's a video on an episode of the abomination

The link makes the video jump to it's end, starting at 1h32m14s mark, when Elio states exactly what you remember he did.

Then I guess it's both safe and accurate.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Ckram said:

The link makes the video jump to it's end, starting at 1h32m14s mark, when Elio states exactly what you remember he did.

Then I guess it's both safe and accurate.

Yeah, I edited my previous post. He does say exactly what I remembered, so it's also good to know I haven't completely lost my mind - yet. 

[Ibbison from Ibben]

14 hours ago, bemused said:

...except that he knows he didn't dream it in the wolf dream he just had, because he thinks "Once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon... etc." That means in a previous dream that he thinks may not have been a wolf dream..

I do like the avatar idea, though.

There's a lot more I'd like to reply to, but not tonight - I'm zonking.

This comes from ACoK, Bran VII

My interpretation of "Once" is that the 3 day warging episode that Bran is waking up from is not the first episode (the initial opening of his third eye) he has had while in the crypts. After he wakes, he asks Meera, "How long?" I've always interpreted that as meaning, "How long was I gone this time?" indicating he has had multiple episodes. Both he and Meera knew what the question meant without further explanation, indicating familiarity.

The avatar idea is an old one of mine. I have joked that the World Wide Weirwood Web uses an antiquated operating system where the sysop assigns you an avatar. Not only can you not change your avatar, you can't even view it yourself.

edit - I also might have made a mistake about that connection being Bran>Summer>Ghost>Jon. Bran seems to claim he connected directly to Ghost, thus Bran>Ghost>Jon.

eta - grammar + added stuff

[Clegane'sPup]

8 hours ago, Ckram said:

The link makes the video jump to it's end, starting at 1h32m14s mark, when Elio states exactly what you remember he did.

Then I guess it's both safe and accurate.

This is part of my problem with martin's story.

So martin had the idea in 19?? that the 3EC was going to be a Targ (Blackwood bastard) of some sort?

I watched and listened to the link. I'm assuming the chit chat betwixt E & L is transpiring in 2014 sometime around the time that World of Ice and Fire is released.

I suppose that in Game of Thrones, the first book which was published in1996 martin knew the 3EC was gonna be a Targ in some form or another.

Yet, ASOIAF readers who have not read the extra material, are faced with book five DwD release in 2011, and a reveal of Brynden Rivers aka BloodRaven being the 3EC.    Weeeeeeel now iffin I haven't read the extra material I dunna know who mister 1000 and one eye is.

 

 

 

[Ckram]

@Clegane'sPup 

Cheer up, soldier. He's loosely presented, but he is.

Quote

• AFFC, SAMWELL II

[...] My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

"Bloodraven?" said Dareon. "I know a song about him. 'A Thousand Eyes, and One,' it's called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago."

• ADWD, THE TURNCLOAK

[...] in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven.

• ADWD, THE KINGBREAKER

[...] Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. [...]

 

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The history of the Great Bastards (including Bloodraven), along with the Ist Blackfyre rebellion was fully introduced in 2003 in the second Dunk and Egg novella, The Sworn Sword. His appearance in ADwD is a bit of an bonus for those who read GRRM's other stuff. It adds depth and richness to the main story, but it doesn't undermine the ability of those unfamiliar with the supporting works to understand what's going on in ADwD.

I didn't get it at first, since I didn't start on ASoIaF until the spring of 2011. That's why I came here.

[Clegane'sPup]

20 hours ago, Ckram said:

Cheer up, soldier. He's loosely presented, but he is.

Yes,    BR is mentioned briefly in the ASOIAF books. What I was trying to say is that if I hadn't read the extra material I would not have the information/hints/clues that Brynden Rivers is aka Bloodraven nor that BR is a Targ bastard of some sort. I got the information from this sight that martin had written short stories in various anthologies. After reading the short stories I understood the tie in. 

Martin has a following. Cool. They purchase every bit of of martin's saga. My gripe is if I read a long winded saga I should not need extra material to understand where the author is taking me.

11 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

The history of the Great Bastards (including Bloodraven), along with the Ist Blackfyre rebellion was fully introduced in 2003 in the second Dunk and Egg novella, The Sworn Sword. His appearance in ADwD is a bit of an bonus for those who read GRRM's other stuff. It adds depth and richness to the main story, but it doesn't undermine the ability of those unfamiliar with the supporting works to understand what's going on in ADwD.

I didn't get it at first, since I didn't start on ASoIaF until the spring of 2011. That's why I came here.

Thank you. You and I may be among the questionable few that will admit that they did not understand wtf was going on during first read.

[Ckram]

On 9/24/2018 at 9:30 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

I should not need extra material to understand where the author is taking me.

I think Martin has never required this from us so far.

[Clegane'sPup]

20 hours ago, Ckram said:

I think Martin has never required this from us so far.

His saga. He left his readers high and dry and started releasing extra material.

[Ckram]

@Clegane'sPup Do you think those books will have the key pieces to solve ASOIAF's main puzzles?

[Clegane'sPup]

20 hours ago, Ckram said:

@Clegane'sPup Do you think those books will have the key pieces to solve ASOIAF's main puzzles?

Yes, the extra material will/can and does contain hints. As has been exhibited in the newly released martin excerpt posted on his site that has generated interest.  Therefore it is my opinion the ASOIAF books are not a stand alone story.

My question to you would be, when trying to understand the as of yet unfinished ASOIAF novels are "spoilers" obsolete?

I'm going to read the soon to be released book. I'm not going to buy it. ASOIAF is no longer a stand alone story. I'm okay with that.

New frontiers. Perhaps this site might need to change its rules and format. Cheers.

 

[Ckram]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

My question to you would be, when trying to understand the as of yet unfinished ASOIAF novels are "spoilers" obsolete?

No. However, the spoilers in extra material tend to be replicated in ASOIAF. That's why people tend to classify those "spoilers" as foreshadows. Cheers

[Clegane'sPup]

27 minutes ago, Ckram said:

No. However, the spoilers in extra material tend to be replicated in ASOIAF. That's why people tend to classify those "spoilers" as foreshadows. Cheers

Cast all extra material aside.  Block it.  By using the information in the five novels who is the last greenseer whose mother named him Brynden?

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III     After the bone-grinding cold of the lands beyond the Wall, the caves were blessedly warm, and when the chill crept out of the rock the singers would light fires to drive it off again. Down here there was no wind, no snow, no ice, no dead things reaching out to grab you, only dreams and rushlight and the kisses of the ravens. And the whisperer in darkness.      The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."/

 

According to the five, I am unsure what to call them, novels (?),  greenseers are associated with the CotF.  The CotF wise men were called greenseers. Guess that means the CotF did the wild thawg with the First Men some 12,000 years ago.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII       "They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.      "But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.       "There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces./

Back to the original ankle biter. Without the extra material I would not have thought/known that Mr. 1000 and one eye, aka Brynden Rivers aka BloodRaven is Bran's 3EC.

[Ckram]

@Clegane'sPup

There are only three Bryndens mentioned in the five books: Rivers, Tully and Blackwood.

Only one of them served in the Night's Watch.

Only one was famous for having a song called "a thousand eyes and one".

Only one of them would be old enough to call Blackfish his namesake.

Quote

• ADWD, Bran II

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

• ADWD, Bran III

"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.

• ADWD, Bran III

"Most of him has gone into the tree," explained the singer Meera called Leaf. "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know."

Thus I think you'd "have thought" that Brynden Rivers was the 3EC even without the other books.

[Seams]

On 9/22/2018 at 1:51 PM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

As to the Bloodrave/3EC question, that just a matter of story evolution. The 3EC was invented quite early in the writing. The Great Bastards and the Blackfyre rebellions are not mentioned until Storm, and then only in passing. GRRM probably didn't invent Bloodraven until 1999 (he doesn't appear in The Hedge Knight in 1998) and then he merged the two characters.

 

On 9/22/2018 at 8:25 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Isn't there an interview where Martin talks about this? Or maybe it's one of Ran and Linda's videos, I'm  foggy on the details. But yeah, either Martin or E&L say that Martin knew he wanted the character (3EC) to have some Targ connection. But hadn't fleshed anything out in detail. And later on - not sure if much later - he decided on Brynden Bloodraven Rivers and developed the character more. 

Or am I making all this up? 

Maybe @Ran can chime in?

Some of this was discussed in a relatively recent thread in this forum:

Lost Melnibonean began with a theory that there was substantial foreshadowing about the Blackfyres in AGoT. Ran chimed in to say that was not possible because GRRM had not invented the Blackfyre plots until after AGoT. Based on my close reading of the literary clues, I think the author was working out the Blackfyre backstory as he was writing ACoK. For instance, I find that the Rainbow Guard (ACoK) and the tourney at Ashford Meadow (The Hedge Knight) are closely linked. But you can read Ran's comments for yourself - he cites the date of an e-mail from GRRM in the discussion.

As for the OP:

On 9/19/2018 at 1:49 AM, bemused said:

Now looking back to Jon's dream and “Ghost” howling, I see something different ... He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only … All things considered, I think this wolf is Summer.. It's clear that Summer is feeling the “ deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness” described in Jon's dream .... because in Bran's dream, “he belonged with his brothers and sisters in the deep woods, running free” ... Bran knows Ghost is with Jon at the wall, but doesn't have a precise sense of where Robb and Grey Wind are. Shaggy is with Summer.

In Jon's dream, the wolf looking for his brother (singular), is looking specifically for a grey shape between the trees. That can only describe Summer looking for Grey Wind, in my view. Jon was very close to Robb because they grew up together for 14 yrs., but Ghost spent about the same amount of time with all of his siblings, and Ghost has 2 grey brothers and one black one.. Why wouldn't he be looking for brothers (plural) grey or black?

I think the author is deliberately vague about which brother and/or which wolf is in touch with Jon and Ghost here. In Jon's dream at the Milkwater, he says he heard his brother but he doesn't say he heard Bran.

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only…

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

(ACoK, Jon VII)

Jon seemed to anticipate the deaths of Robb and Grey Wind when he dreamed of the feast where Robb and his direwolf entered to join all of the dead people already present. He may have also anticipated Robb's death during his attempted desertion from the Night's Watch:

He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. Jon would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on robb's face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile, and he say . . . he'd say . .

He could not see the smile. Hard as he tried, he could not see it. He found himself thinking of the deserter his father had beheaded the day they'd found the direwolves. "You said the words," Lord Eddard had told him. "You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new."

(AGoT, Jon IX)

So Jon couldn't see Robb's face in AGoT even though he really wants to, but he can see or hear his "brother" in ACoK. It's true that there is a lot of Bran-linked imagery in Jon's vision of the sapling, but there is also Robb imagery: one of Robb's great battle victories was at the whispering wood, and we get several references to woods and whispering here. At the end of AGoT, Catelyn is sad that Robb and his bannermen don't hear her plea for peace; she understood that he woods were whispering to end the war, not to expand it. I think the message here is that Weirwood Robb will understand after death, finally, why Catelyn wanted to avoid war and that Jon can hear that whisper even though Robb did not. (Jon also hears Ghost when no one else can.)

If you accept any wordplay as part of GRRM's system of hints, the wordplay on "deserter" and "red trees" may also be relevant here. We assume that Jon has changed his train of thought, and that he thinks of the deserter immediately after trying to picture Robb because he is now thinking of his own current situation, and imagining what his father would say about his desertion. But GRRM doesn't change paragraphs - the topic hasn't shifted; Jon is still thinking about Robb's face. I believe this is foreshadowing about Robb as an oathbreaker (taking a bride other than a Frey descendant) and his eventual beheading as a result. Robb is the brother and his is the face on the red tree.

As for the three eyes and the crow, I think this could be another of GRRM's vague subtleties. Crowfood Umber lost an eye when he fell asleep and a crow pecked out his eye. The Umber brothers are close to Robb and very loyal. They may serve the same role as Jojen serves for Bran and/or they may fall into "the brown category" (the sell sword Bronn, Bennis of the Brown Shield, Tristifer Mudd, bowls of brown, etc.) that I haven't fully understood yet - umber is a yellow brown color. We don't think of Robb as having a third eye but we never get a POV from him so it's hard to know whether he had the potential. Maybe everyone has (or all Starks have?) three eyes after death.

And then there are Jon's Night's Watch "brothers" who soon appear and guide him back to Castle Black. Jon took his vow in front of weirwood trees and Night's Watch brothers, so the memory of Ned's words could add that layer of meaning to Jon hearing his "brother's" voice in this passage.

I realize the discussion here has evolved in another direction and I don't want to derail things. I do feel that GRRM deliberately avoids using names in dreams and prophecies in order to have two or more things true at once. Sometimes a prophecy applies to more than once character, sometimes he wants to mislead the reader without actually lying to us, sometimes he wants to echo something from history or legend without hitting us over the head to tell us, "This is foreshadowing! Here's what it means!" I like your thoughtful interpretation in the OP but I also relish the ambiguity and look forward to whatever morsels GRRM might serve to us in the upcoming books.

[dmfn]

@bemused

First of all, wow. My subway commute was so entertaining I nearly missed my stop. So many juicy nuggets in here, and you put to words a vague thought I'd had once about GX. 

A couple of things jumped out at me, and was wondering if you could see around them. 

The idea of Bran dreaming in the crypts, reaching out to Jon and saying he likes the dark "...because you can see...but they can't see you" doesn't quite line up for me. They mentioned being unable to see a damn thing in the crypt, so it's a weird choice for that to be the only thing Bran says. So are we again looking at time travel? Or some other explanation? Another dreamer, maybe? 

I like the idea of Bloodraven hooking them (B&J) up in the dream, but I can't imagine the weirwood face being Bloodraven, because he's so consistently referred to as having one eye or a thousand. I would just guess his face on the tree would be one-eyed. 

I'm not sure Bloodraven is the three eyed crow. Even @Ibbison from Ibben's avatar theory falls a little short. His nickname is "raven" and he gets "crow". That's like my name being Mr Lyon and getting a tiger. So I'm digging the idea of another seer being involved. Could be any number really. Maybe with different agendas. 

I always come back to the initial conversation between Bran and Brynden, where Bloodraven identifies "crow" as meaning "Nightswatchman" but I don't think Bran would use that term to describe the Watch. That's sort of derogatory, used by the Wildlings. Of course a brother of the Watch would know that, but I never hear anyone south of the Wall use it. 

I read the whole thread but didn't see anyone address this specific detail (darkness and three eyes) so was hoping to flesh it out a little more. 

If Bran is the sapling growing from the stone with a stern face, is it still possible to be present time?

 

[Clegane'sPup]

23 hours ago, Ckram said:

Thus I think you'd "have thought" that Brynden Rivers was the 3EC even without the other books.

Thank you for sharing what you think I may have thought.

I will flat out tell you, originally after first read I sought out information about Jon Snow's parentage and possible death.

Who Bran's 3EC was --- was a surprise due to the information shared on this site. It was interesting because people were flapping and gave information to check out the short stories that were at the time only available in various anthologies (before A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms 2015).

[bemused]

I'm going to be skipping back and forth now, trying to catch up.(I've been trying to post this for days - too many interruptions.. ETA, and then I had internet problems !!)

Thanks, @Ckram for the link. That's pretty good validation, IMO.

On 9/22/2018 at 10:51 AM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Likewise, Bran's dream avatar is a young weirwood, but Bran doesn't understand that - he doesn't send dreams to himself. He appears to Arya/Nymeria as a weirwood, also.

Does he? I couldn't remember which dream that was in, so I checked . It's the Mercy chapter, which I'm going to assume has been out long enough to be openly discussed (especially since what I'm quoting is short)... 

Quote

She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran. ... TWOW, Mercy chapter (Archived on GRRM's site)

There's nothing here to identify Bran specifically although, once he can enter the web, he can access any event that was observed at any time. ... But (and I didn't notice this before, because I was always just focused on Arya and Braavos) ... Now I'm struck by the number of features this dream shares with Jon's ADWD dream. Howling - Arya feels it in her heart, Ghost hears/sees Nymeria and the grey cousins howling. ... Blood - All the wolves were hunting, including Ghost. (We don't know if he had made a kill yet, or if he's tasting blood from the others' hunts through the weirnet ... e.g. Shaggy's) .. Moon - appears in both dreams, though I don't think we know its phase in Jon's dream.. For me, at least, the tree watching her as she ran is reminiscent of the moon watching Ghost as he runs from it... And the "many a night" knowledge in Jon's dream suggests Nymeria/Arya has been watched frequently. I don't think this is being passed to Ghost from Bran (for the reasons I already put forth)..

(On a side note, when she arrives at the HOB&W, Arya feels the doors are watching her. this could have implications ... or none, of course.)

On 9/22/2018 at 10:51 AM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Also, I would not put much credence into detailed calculations of time and distance, because I'm sure GRRM didn't. He deliberately keeps these matters quite vague, and still screws up quite a bit.

Well, while I think this is true on the grand scale, as in reconciling the timelines of far flung characters, and other famous screw ups, like eye colour, e.g.  ... But when it comes down to puzzles he builds around specific events - whether to create a real cliff-hanger (like Jon's supposed death) or to obscure information required for some other type of revelation, or (heaven knows) in descriptions to hint at masked identities, etc. - then I think these are very carefully constructed. Hints are veiled, delivered in a roundabout way (like the growth of shadows standing in for the passage of time), and we'd also better take note of his playfulness with language.

(I can think of 2 or 3 other scenes off the top of my head where timing is really important.)

In keeping with "Once you remove the impossible, whatever is left ...."

Wolf dreams happen in the present for the character and his/her wolf, but Jon's ACOK  dream doesn't, because Jon and Ghost are in a completely different environment from the dream and Ghost would be unable to get way back down under the tree line for the first part, then in an instant zoom ahead to stand on the precipice above the Milkwater valley. Therefore, Jon and Ghost cannot be experiencing the "wolf" beginning of the dream together. That's just the first of a number of impossibilities.

On 9/23/2018 at 1:57 PM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

My interpretation of "Once" is that the 3 day warging episode that Bran is waking up from is not the first episode (the initial opening of his third eye) he has had while in the crypts.

I agree with this and your interpretation of "How long?". The thing is, I don't assume that his third eye opened right away, during his time in the crypts. He probably continued to simply dream for some undetermined time first. We're only told that his third eye had finally opened and that in the crypts, there was little else to do but sleep. (More time spent sleeping = more time spent dreaming = more opportunity to achieve opening.)This means BR could have sent Bran the dream of Ghost and Jon.

And with the avatar thing, BR and Bran may not know their own avatars, but as Bran sees BR's, he can see Bran's, if Bran has appeared in BR's dreams ... (I know, wait.. what?) ... We shouldn't forget that BR is (has been?) human, and will have had a lifetime of dreaming before joining himself to the tree.

We have a lot to learn yet about both Bran's capabilities and Bloodraven's.

So, (semi-side-trip) earlier, I told @Curled Finger that he'd sent my mind off in a new direction, or at least, one that I'd always thought about separately. I had been posting-while-musing about the possibility of BR having Stark heritage, and just turning my mind to BR generally. ... In The Mystery Knight, I'd often wondered about the following ... (BR is speaking to Dunk) -

Quote

"There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest," Bloodraven said, "so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well. Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong."

... Equally, we readers should not be surprised if a (Targ.) Rivers bastard displays the gift. In TMK, BR seems to be so many steps ahead of his adversaries, that no matter how many actual human spies he has (their number could be exaggerated in popular opinion) and how many birds and animals he can skinchange, it wouldn't surprise me if he had a good idea of where to deploy his spies to begin with (because of the gift) ... Nor would it surprise me if he, unlike others, 1. kept knowledge of the gift to himself, or 2. if he was better at interpretation than most.

At other times, thinking of his killing of Aenys Blackfyre ...

Spoiler

Bloodraven, the King's Hand, had responded by offering him a safe conduct, so the pretender might come to King's Landing and present his claim in person.

Unwisely, Aenys accepted. Yet hardly had he entered the city when the gold cloaks seized hold of him and dragged him to the Red Keep, where his head was struck off forthwith and presented to the lords of the Great Council, as a warning to any who might still have Blackfyre sympathies.

..... TWOIAF, Targ. Kings , Maekar I

The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.

Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night's Watch. This he did. 

...TWOIAF, Targ. Kings, Aegon IV

... I'm sure he could have predicted that Egg would let him take the black ... and his actions re: Prince Aenys may well have been for the good of the realm, since many agreed ... But I've often wondered, was he killing two birds with one stone? ... Did he have some foreknowledge (via dreams) that - for the good of the realm - he should be at the wall? (And if so, I can think of reasons why it would be far better to be sent, rather than simply volunteer.)

Why was he watching Bran from birth, if he didn't have foreknowledge of what Bran would or could become?

These matters are still circulating in the back of my mind, but might eventually contribute to a full understanding of the Bran / Jon dreams.

In those dreams, the scents (wolf,tree,boy..etc.) are much more compatible with the cotf cave (if Bran is there) than with the crypts ... and Bran would have to be reaching back in time , if he reached out to Jon from the cave. I put forth my preferred alternative in the OP, but have never ruled this out as a possibility. ... It's just that, if this is the case, I still think it could only be with BR's blessing, co-operation and perhaps supervision.

If Bran (or anyone) was reaching back in time, I think it had to be very carefully managed. At Queenscrown, Jon was already back south of the wall. .. We know that as Bran traveled north, Coldhands had to deal with "foes" vaguely suggested to be remnants of the mutineers from Craster's. .. That whole story line - the Fist, Craster's etc.- could not be disturbed.... If Sam hadn't survived, Bran may never have reached the cave.. Or, another survivor could have passed him through the gate, but may not have kept Bran's secret ... ( and don't you think Sam's trip to Oldtown will be important ? Who else could do it?) ... If Jon and Ghost had reached the precipice at the same time, Jon may have been attacked, not Ghost ... and maybe, knocked over the edge to his death.

It just makes so much more sense to me, that if you had the ability to see into possible futures, it would be much more efficient and less risky to act in the present (or as close to it as possible) to nudge things toward the desired future than to try to change past events .... BR had been working for years toward his goals, why wait all the extra months for Bran to get to the cave and then more months as Bran learns the ropes, while in the meantime, people are making power plays, getting killed off (or not) and generally making things more difficult reconcile.

We have BR's word that to the trees, past, present and future are one, and the possibility that he may have had prophetic dreams like his relations.

@dmfn You have some interesting questions. I guess some are partly addressed here ...I'll try to say more tomorrow.

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, bemused said:

 I'm sure he could have predicted that Egg would let him take the black ... and his actions re: Prince Aenys may well have been for the good of the realm, since many agreed ... But I've often wondered, was he killing two birds with one stone? ... Did he have some foreknowledge (via dreams) that - for the good of the realm - he should be at the wall? (And if so, I can think of reasons why it would be far better to be sent, rather than simply volunteer.)

Why was he watching Bran from birth, if he didn't have foreknowledge of what Bran would or could become?

These matters are still circulating in the back of my mind, but might eventually contribute to a full understanding of the Bran / Jon dreams.

In those dreams, the scents (wolf,tree,boy..etc.) are much more compatible with the cotf cave (if Bran is there) than with the crypts ... and Bran would have to be reaching back in time , if he reached out to Jon from the cave. I put forth my preferred alternative in the OP, but have never ruled this out as a possibility. ... It's just that, if this is the case, I still think it could only be with BR's blessing, co-operation and perhaps supervision.

If Bran (or anyone) was reaching back in time, I think it had to be very carefully managed. At Queenscrown, Jon was already back south of the wall. .. We know that as Bran traveled north, Coldhands had to deal with "foes" vaguely suggested to be remnants of the mutineers from Craster's. .. That whole story line - the Fist, Craster's etc.- could not be disturbed.... If Sam hadn't survived, Bran may never have reached the cave.. Or, another survivor could have passed him through the gate, but may not have kept Bran's secret ... ( and don't you think Sam's trip to Oldtown will be important ? Who else could do it?) ... If Jon and Ghost had reached the precipice at the same time, Jon may have been attacked, not Ghost ... and maybe, knocked over the edge to his death.

It just makes so much more sense to me, that if you had the ability to see into possible futures, it would be much more efficient and less risky to act in the present (or as close to it as possible) to nudge things toward the desired future than to try to change past events .... BR had been working for years toward his goals, why wait all the extra months for Bran to get to the cave and then more months as Bran learns the ropes, while in the meantime, people are making power plays, getting killed off (or not) and generally making things more difficult reconcile.

We have BR's word that to the trees, past, present and future are one, and the possibility that he may have had prophetic dreams like his relations.

 

I was reading through and began remembering those posters who have spun some decent web regarding what Bloodraven knew well before pulling off some of his inevitable moments, exactly like the execution of Aenys and exile to the the Wall.  Not as quickly as you got there, but I was with you.   This leads us into some murky assumptions about the nature of precognition.   Dragon dreams in the traditional sense at least, do seem to foretell an event.   Who can say if Daenys' dreams foretold of anything beyond the Doom?   She may well have known about the eventual rise of the Targaryens in Westeros, but that seems a bit of a stretch to me.   I'm sort of likening or trying to liken this to Bloodraven's possible full precognition of his future in the fall out of events.  I wonder.   I'm thinking greensight has to be an amplifier for other talents.   If one is given to dragon dreams greensight could enhance foresight to outcomes of events.   Yah, that was complicated and I wrote it.   It would be as if Daenys dreamed the Doom the the rise of her family long after the fall out.   I doubt this would be possible with a single clairvoyance, but if you coupled that clairvoyance with another different type of clairvoyance I think you probably could get the event and outcome.   Given that greensight already shows the past and probably present it's not really a stretch to leave sight of the present open.   This may be a far better tool than prophecy.  There are many ways this could work.   Bloodraven is a multi talented magical person.  If you are running a pool, I will buy in for $2 that he did in fact know he had to get north.  He was so entangled in politics in Kings Landing a murder wrap may have been the only way to extricate himself?  He stuck around to answer and accept his punishment.   Some posters have theorized that Egg was in cahoots with Bloodraven from the murder of Aenys to the trip to the Wall.  I suppose that's possible, but I just don't have enough information to be fully convinced.    I tend to agree more with your ideas about BR playing a very long game with a whole bunch of cards up his sleeve.  

Note: Since you are catching up on things I composed this 10 page long reply to your reply to me earlier.   It's saved in a Word doc on my desktop.   I wasn't ignoring the conversation, it is only that my thoughts became so complicated I am saving it for a more coherent rewrite.   This is a wonderful topic bemused, and has caused me to come out of my 6 month hiding around here.   Thanks for making me sociable again.