Jon and Bran - a Shared Dream, Direwolves and More

[bemused]

On 9/29/2018 at 2:43 AM, dmfn said:

The idea of Bran dreaming in the crypts, reaching out to Jon and saying he likes the dark "...because you can see...but they can't see you" doesn't quite line up for me. They mentioned being unable to see a damn thing in the crypt, so it's a weird choice for that to be the only thing Bran says. So are we again looking at time travel? Or some other explanation? Another dreamer, maybe? 

Doesn't line up for me, either. He can't see anything in the crypts because, no light and  no hook up to a tree. ... It could be Bran-in-the-cave, but he would be time traveling ... and it's still a bloody weird thing to say to Jon. Jon can't see the crypts or the cave. ... Honestly, this is what makes me lean so strongly toward Bloodraven sending the dream to both boys... first, to Bran while he is in the crypts, but maybe before his third eye has opened. Then the words are a suggestion and reassurance to Bran, preparing him for what is to come... second, to Jon , but after Bran's third eye has opened, relaying Bran's wolf dream at the beginning , then replaying the Bran avatar dream, poking Jon's third eye and relaying what Ghost/GX has seen.

Something along those lines.

I'm not bothered by crow / raven. Bran is a little boy telling his dream. He describes a crow ... GRRM uses "said the raven to the crow" the way we use "the pot calling the kettle black" (one is equal to the other) ... and Bloodraven was Lord Commander of the crows at the wall for many years.

[dmfn]

11 hours ago, bemused said:

Doesn't line up for me, either. He can't see anything in the crypts because, no light and  no hook up to a tree. ... It could be Bran-in-the-cave, but he would be time traveling ... and it's still a bloody weird thing to say to Jon. Jon can't see the crypts or the cave. ... Honestly, this is what makes me lean so strongly toward Bloodraven sending the dream to both boys... first, to Bran while he is in the crypts, but maybe before his third eye has opened. Then the words are a suggestion and reassurance to Bran, preparing him for what is to come... second, to Jon , but after Bran's third eye has opened, relaying Bran's wolf dream at the beginning , then replaying the Bran avatar dream, poking Jon's third eye and relaying what Ghost/GX has seen.

Something along those lines.

I'm not bothered by crow / raven. Bran is a little boy telling his dream. He describes a crow ... GRRM uses "said the raven to the crow" the way we use "the pot calling the kettle black" (one is equal to the other) ... and Bloodraven was Lord Commander of the crows at the wall for many years.

It is certainly a weird thing to say. Maybe it has to do with the weirnet being "dark" and being able to see (with your 3rd eye) is the fun part. That would satisfy me. 

However, I have another idea. I'll do some digging and post about it later. 

Thank you for the insight 

[ravenous reader]

On 9/21/2018 at 1:39 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

In this dream Bran is in the weirwood and he opened Jon's third eye right?  This happened in book 2, and Bran first taps into the weirwood halfway through book 5, so how is this not time travel? 

I find myself returning to this topic again and again.  Besides the question of the origin of the Others, Jon's dream is the mystery which most continues to fascinate me.  You bring up a great point many readers have curiously stayed clear of addressing. 

Setting aside the controversial subject of 'time travel' for a moment, I would like someone to explain firstly, why Bran appears in the dream as a weirwood avatar in ACOK, when as you correctly point out he only 'weds the tree' and awakens his greenseeing powers proper in ADWD.  At that point in his arc in 'real time' (i.e. Bran ACOK), he is actually afraid of the tree and its tree dreams calling him, rather than having assumed the greenseer throne and confidently taken up root in it (i.e. Bran ADWD).  I hope no-one dares suggest that this is merely 'foreshadowing'... I need more to satisfy me than that! 

Secondly, I would like a clear and definitive explanation as to why GRRM has included the telltale marker of the time-lapsed weirwood growing up in fast-forward, as an integral feature of the dream, which seems to indicate a timeshift.  Much as I love symbolism, a vague allusion to Bran's maturing magical powers is not really adequate to account for the tree phenomenon, especially when taken in conjunction with a similar motif GRRM has already shown us in the AGOT 'coma dream', in which the trees shrink away into nothing as they 'die in reverse', which as I've interpreted it, is a sign of time elapsing in the present to past direction.  

Finally, let me add a friendly reminder, that just because we do not like a thing, that is not sufficient reason to automatically disqualify it from possessing validity.  For example, I have not hidden my distaste for the 'Tyrion as secret Targ' theory, yet with time I've had to concede that the preponderance of evidence overwhelmingly favors it.  Likewise, if one follows the discrepancies of Jon's dream to their logical conclusion... 

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At this point in Clash of Kings did Bran even know that the weirwood was a magical entity and could allow him to communicate through dreams?  He thought the 3 eyed crow was a wizard up until book 5. 

Also, if this is book 2 current Bran, when did he learn to open people's third eye?  How did he even know this was a possibility?  That seems like a pretty advanced skill for a 10 year old boy.  He would have assumed this was only something the 3 eyed crow could do, why would he think otherwise?

Another good question.  It's perplexing that most readers accept that Bran, the untrained greenseer ingenue hunkering down in the crypt, is capable of unconsciously opening someone's third eye.  I simply don't buy it.  Whomever one deems the three-eyed crow to be, surely we all agree that they are an advanced order greenseer who opened Bran's third eye intentionally and in full consciousness of what they were doing?  This would necessarily imply intact memory after the fact of what one had done, which is not the case for Bran. 

If Jon is able to recollect the dream, relating the details to his Night's Watch brothers afterwards, then how come Bran the purported mastermind is unable to similarly remember it?  In other words, why is he confused when he wakes up, when Jon isn't?  "Maybe he had only dreamt it' is not good enough to account for such an advanced power.  The argument that Bran is a prodigy who performs advanced magic feats unconsciously is also not very convincing!

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Here we have a confirmed instance of Bran opening someone's third eye.  But Bloodraven never mentions opening your third eye to Bran in the cave, nor does he take credit for opening Bran's third eye, what Bloodraven does say to Bran is:

Bran's first falling dream:

All Bloodraven did was watch through the tree, he did not interact.  In that same dream where the weirwood only watched, the 3 eyed crow interacted, it talked to Bran and pecked his third eye open.  Since Bloodraven did not take credit for opening Bran's third eye, we should default to the only known character that has opened someone's third eye and that is Bran himself--from inside the network from some point in the future.

Are you suggesting Bran opened his own third eye?!

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Also, in Bran's very first journey into the weirwood network he calls his father's name and his father responds, then Leaf and Bloodraven immediately tell him that he shouldn't try to raise the dead and he cannot change the past and he was mistaken that Ned only heard the wind--why were they so quick to stamp out those ideas and tell him they are impossible?  And why should we believe them?  They just killed Jojen, drained his blood, mixed that with some crushed weirwood root, gave it to Bran, and said "here eat this."  Seems pretty sketchy to me.

Agree on all counts.

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When I mentioned Bran escaping from Bloodraven's cave earlier I was thinking of this line from Arya:

Yes, there is definitely an echo of Bran in that Old Nan tale.  The legend of Gendel and Gorne also springs to mind.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

On 11/29/2018 at 8:12 PM, ravenous reader said:

Whomever one deems the three-eyed crow to be, surely we all agree that they are an advanced order greenseer who opened Bran's third eye intentionally and in full consciousness of what they were doing? 

Speaking of advanced greensight, Jojen foreshadows Bran attaining godlike powers. 

"The things I see in green dreams can't be changed."

That made his sister angry. "Why would the gods send a warning if we can't heed it and change what's to come?"

"I don't know," Jojen said sadly.

"It will not matter. The dream was green, Bran, and the green dreams do not lie."

"What Jojen dreamed came true."

Jojen has green dreams of future events.  Jojen has green dreams of Ironborn coming to Winterfell and the Miller's kids getting killed.  Knowledge of future events is being sent telepathically into the past, that Jojen is somehow able to receive, but Jojen is unable to prevent these future events from happening, but that is not to say that someone else with a different skill set couldn't.

Jojen and Bran:

"Then you teach me." Bran still feared the three-eyed crow who haunted his dreams sometimes, pecking endlessly at the skin between his eyes and telling him to fly. "You're a greenseer."

"No," said Jojen, "only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world.

"The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees. I could not do these things, no more than you could. To me the gods gave the green dreams, and to you . . . you could be more than me, Bran. You are the winged wolf, and there is no saying how far and high you might fly"

" The black one is full of fear and rage, but the grey is strong . . . stronger than he knows . . . can you feel him, sister?"

 

Jojen can see the future but cannot change it, and he and Meera are baffled about why the gods would do such a thing.   "Why would the gods send a warning if we can't heed it and change what's to come?"  I take this a foreshadowing that someone will be able to hear and heed the warnings and will change what's to come.  Jojen clearly states that being a powerful warg is essential to being a greenseer, and that Bran's power might be limitless, that the gods have gifted him special powers, and while he mentions the weirwood, he doesn't know that the source of power for greensight is the weirwood.  And that Bran will get his limitless power by warging the weirwood and making it do his bidding. 

 

With regards to Jojen paste, but I am working on all the astronomy references in ASOIAF and Mira is a star that is in the "neck" of the Cetus (Sea Monster) constellation--as in Meera gets eaten by the Sea (greenseeing) Monster.  The CoTF will feed or did feed Meera to Bran and that is why he will swear a bloody vengeance against them.  Brandon of the Bloody blade killed so many CoTF as to turn a whole lake red with blood.  Also, a star in Cetus' tail is called Diphda meaning "second frog"

 

[dialt]

3 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Jojen can see the future but cannot change it, and he and Meera are baffled about why the gods would do such a thing.   "Why would the gods send a warning if we can't heed it and change what's to come?"  I take this a foreshadowing that someone will be able to hear and heed the warnings and will change what's to come.  Jojen clearly states that being a powerful warg is essential to being a greenseer, and that Bran's power might be limitless, that the gods have gifted him special powers, and while he mentions the weirwood, he doesn't know that the source of power for greensight is the weirwood.  And that Bran will get his limitless power by warging the weirwood and making it do his bidding. 

With regards to Jojen paste, but I am working on all the astronomy references in ASOIAF and Mira is a star that is in the "neck" of the Cetus (Sea Monster) constellation--as in Meera gets eaten by the Sea (greenseeing) Monster.  The CoTF will feed or did feed Meera to Bran and that is why he will swear a bloody vengeance against them.  Brandon of the Bloody blade killed so many CoTF as to turn a whole lake red with blood.  Also, a star in Cetus' tail is called Diphda meaning "second frog"

Well, well, well... First, I'd like to underline that the correct latin pronunciation of the word Mira sounds exactly as the English pronunciation of "Meera". So, not only there are similar, they are... identical.

That said, Cetus is a sea monster, but the constellation is also known as "the Whale". And that is interesting because "the belly of the whale" and the "inmost cave" share the same meaning: symbolically they're one and the same. 

Therefore, we surely don't have to dismiss the chance that she may die or be eaten. At the very least, that she won't be same (due a metaphorical if not actual death), is absolutelly on cards. But she may only represent the catalyst that drove Bran to that cave/whale. After all, that's what she's been so far.But: there's another - and amazing imo - detail about the star Mira that matches with something else you noticed.

Mira was the first "variable star"  identified in modern times (1638). And to quote wiki "This discovery, combined with supernovae observed in 1572 and 1604, proved that the starry sky was not eternally invariable as Aristotle and other ancient philosophers had taught" 

I believe we can easely compare this to that quote about the chance to change future events. To compare destiny/fate with what is written in the stars, is something we still do. Furthermore and more precisely, Mira proved that "stars/skies" (so destiny/fate-> future events) are... not immutable. 

Finally @bemused great post.

I think I agree with you about the "first" Jon's wolfdream.

Don't really know about the rest. You made great point, but I have to think about them.

However... Ghost. Ghost is white and red just like an heart tree.
But Jon... if R+L= J is true... Jon is obsidian. Dragonglass. He's frozen fire.  So why his direwold is an heart tree? 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 hour ago, lalt said:

But: there's another - and amazing imo - detail about the star Mira that matches with something else you noticed.

Mira was the first "variable star"  identified in modern times (1638). And to quote wiki "This discovery, combined with supernovae observed in 1572 and 1604, proved that the starry sky was not eternally invariable as Aristotle and other ancient philosophers had taught" 

I believe we can easely compare this to that quote about the chance to change future events. To compare destiny/fate with what is written in the stars, is something we still do. Furthermore and more precisely, Mira proved that "stars/skies" (so destiny/fate-> future events) are... not immutable. 

I read about Mira being variable and changing their understanding of astronomy several times but the implication of it never clicked, good catch.  Maybe the ink is not so dry after all.

The Mesopotamians saw Cetus as the cosmic dragon Tiamat, that Marduk slew.  And in their mythology Marduk gets control of the Tablets of Destiny.  Bran is Marduk and he will get control of the Tablets of Destiny.

In Greek mythology Andromeda was chained to a rock as a sacrifice to Cetus, but is saved by the hero Perseus, who slays the sea monster.

Cetus is sometimes depicted as a whale, and if all of Westeros is thought of as a living creature, due to the weirwood infestation, (and Meera is from the neck, and mire means swamp)

"Behind the dais a kraken and grey leviathan were locked in battle beneath the painted waves."

and the kraken looks like a tree.  "Then she saw it: an uprooted tree, huge and dark, coming straight at them. A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken."

(The Kraken, is also called the Crab-fish, and in early descriptions the kraken is crab-like, and the crab is another carrion animal--Lml)

Krakyn means rook or crow in Bulgarian, Krake/krage means crow in Danish, and Euron is the crow's eye, and he is a kraken, and he had a flying dream when he was a kid.  "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."

And I think Euron is Jormundgandr from Norse mythology, who is one of the children of Loki, whose animal is the crow.  Fenrir the wolf is Bran, but I think Loki is future/past Bran also.

Under the sea--in the weirwood network, the kraken and the leviathan were locked in battle.  The crow fights the weirwood in the weirwood network.  The heart(tree) in conflict with itself.

 

While we are talking about constellations, I think the Crone's Lantern is the real world constellation corvus--the crow.  Four stars in a square formation with a hazy spot in the middle.  The carrion crow's latin name is corone corvix.  There is a play on words between crone and corone.  The crone's lantern lights the way, Bran is the crow, Bran lights the way.  The crone is the repository of knowledge.  In the Faith of the Seven, I think Saturn is the crone, as Saturn in greek is cronus.  And Cronus or Chronos is the god of time, and Bran the crow will be the god of time.

And in hindu astronomy, Saturn is Shani who rides around on a crow.

 

Other crow name associations:

varis means crow in finnish (and varis means truth in latin)

joj means crow in mayan

krakyn means rook in bulgarian

kraz means crow in arabic

garvan means crow in bosnian

graznar means crow in spanish

bran means crow in welsh

pyat means magpie in scots

qua means crow in vietnamese (quaithe?)

qaib means crow in hmong, (qyburn?)

 

"Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him."

"He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement,"