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How will Robb Stark be remembered as in the long line of Stark Kings (and Lords)?

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26 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Right, history can be spun however the maesters feel like it. However Oldtown aside, Robb did fight more then the  though. Greywind too. Robb complains that hes gotten too used to killing people

Robb also has two things that his father does not: a cool nickname and a direwolf.

In the thousands of years of Stark rule and lordship, there are probably any number of lord Robb and Eddard Starks. So in a few hundred years, when all the battles and intrigues and politics of this time have faded from memory, our Robb and Eddard will be largely indistinguishable from the last dozen. But the Young Wolf? That's a name that singers write songs about. And a Young Wolf who had a pet direwolf who would charge into battle and tear men's heads off, and then that gets conflated into the Young Wolf and the direwolf becoming one and the same and now you have a mythical figure who can change shape and was feared throughout the land and only defeated by the most evil of lords who took advantage of his love for the most beautiful woman in the land. What a way to get the maids out of their small clothes.

The maesters, of course, will keep an accurate history, but for a largely illiterate population where the oral traditional is still strong, this is how Robb will be remembered. Ned, not so much.

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He'll be remembered with a pithy phrase about "Winning battles does not mean you win the war".  People who lose wars in similar circumstances in the future will say they were "Robb Starked".

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4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robb also has two things that his father does not: a cool nickname and a direwolf.

In the thousands of years of Stark rule and lordship, there are probably any number of lord Robb and Eddard Starks. So in a few hundred years, when all the battles and intrigues and politics of this time have faded from memory, our Robb and Eddard will be largely indistinguishable from the last dozen. But the Young Wolf? That's a name that singers write songs about. And a Young Wolf who had a pet direwolf who would charge into battle and tear men's heads off, and then that gets conflated into the Young Wolf and the direwolf becoming one and the same and now you have a mythical figure who can change shape and was feared throughout the land and only defeated by the most evil of lords who took advantage of his love for the most beautiful woman in the land. What a way to get the maids out of their small clothes.

Definitely a good story

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The maesters, of course, will keep an accurate history, but for a largely illiterate population where the oral traditional is still strong, this is how Robb will be remembered. Ned, not so much.

I think you mean inaccurate history.

Robb and Greywind are one of the same (kinda) and he can (almost probably definitely) change shapes. He was defeated by the most evil lord and Jaime says Jeynes not a real looker but them Jaimes taste has always been... Jaimes. 

 

Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.

 

And who knows how much this warg story is true? If Robbs anything like his sibilings his guards would listen to his barking every night, let alone Jeyne or Olyvar Frey

 

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22 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think you mean inaccurate history.

I think they do a pretty good job of recording battles, lineages, events at court, etc. They'll also record the tales of smallfolk about wargs and magic, etc., but pretty much discount them because they don't comply with their magic-free outlook on the world.

But all in all, I'd say their histories are about as accurate as our own.

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On 9/22/2018 at 4:33 PM, Hugorfonics said:

John Suburbs detailed above why Robb will be more famous then his pops. Basically its regality. People remember kings

Neither was Robb, he was a pretender to an extinct throne (like the Welsh example I gave you) but not an actual king, not officially.  He has been dead for around a year and both of his 'kingdoms' (and I say that pretty loosely, as he had little control over either while he lived) are both under the crowns domain. There is no succession of his crown given the majority of his lords have all swore their fealty to the crown. 

It is debatable if history will remember either Renly or Robb as kings, they will likely be regarded as pretenders. Joffrey and Tommen had the High Septon legitimize their crowns, it is a shame that Robb had no real equivalent of that, but the reality was that he was one of four people claiming to be king of the North

Ned was actually the Hand of the King, ruled the North 20 times longer than Robb and played a key role in not one, not two but three major civil wars (commander in two, his arrest/execution helped propel the third). His attempt to usurp the throne, and with a grand maester being able to document it, will be pretty significant. 

 

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But not all his siblings are kings.

Technically nor was Robb. Now it is more than possible that the North will become an independent realm again thanks to one of Robb's siblings, but that dynasty will be started with them, they will outshine Robb.

Independence in the future boosts Robb's rep, but it will significantly boost the Stark who achieves it. 

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The RW has way more weight then the purple.

To the reader of the series who see the Starks as the heroes of the series. History is not written like that and more importance is always going to be focused on the more significant , which the king of Westeros is. 

Joffrey's reign was longer than Robb's, was killed by a relative (who broke guest rights), was successful in uniting the realm, was victorious in the battle of blackwater and more importantly, there is simply going to be more for historians to work with on him. He, as the heir of the king. will have been written about more than Robb, there were many maesters in the capital during his reign, far more diplomacy between his government and other factions. By contrast Robb's pretty much in the dark when it comes to future historians, no maester in his army covering him, only letters sent (and ignored) to Lysa.

Historians work on what they can prove, what they can source and Robb is going to be something of a mystery to them. 

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The RW ended the war,

No, the battle of the blackwater ended the war, or if we want to be technical the war is still ongoing with Stannis and Balon's successor still claiming to be king. 

For the reader of this book that focuses heavily on the Starks the Red Wedding carries more significance than the purple, but that is not going to be true of historians. The occupiers of the Iron Throne will always take central stage. 

 

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decemated an army

Yeah, that is pretty common in huge civil wars. 

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The purple just replaced one child king with another, its like Disenchampment "Dont be sad, she would have left him for me anyway"

Yeah, you are clearly downplaying something which historians don't. A young handsome King (who was already notable for his questionable birth) who has just pretty much won the war of the five kings is assassinated on his wedding day with the chief suspects being his uncle and the bride he was formally betrothed to? Historians live for this shit, as do playwrights.  

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Right, history can be spun however the maesters feel like it. However Oldtown aside, Robb did fight more then the  though. Greywind too.

And? Three major battles is not exactly noteworthy, not for the middle ages. 

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Robb complains that hes gotten too used to killing people

When? I don't recall that, from what we saw Robb is protected from battle. He is not another Robert. 

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I never said Robb will be remembered as fondly as St. Nick. But being loathed and creating "one of the worst parts in Riverland history" is polarizing and memorable

I don't get your point here? You claimed the entire Riverlands had strong feelings for him, read back your own posts if you have forgotten. It is simply not the case, the Riverlanders despise both the lions and wolves, they are not going to be thinking fondly of either. 

Robert will be lionized by them, possibly Beric and Edmure and, ironically given his popularity in the fandom, Tarly. 

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No its not. Tywin was one out of a like ten hands under Aerys,

one of five, he was Hand for 20 years the others a year. We already know that Tywin is going to be remembered a in universe history book already exists and Tywin is a pretty prominent part of it. 

Your personal feelings for the character are not going to change that, you can argue he is not deserving of it but the truth of the matter is its already happened.  

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nor did he wear any crown or have some fun fetish on the side. Tywins boring, Dragonspawn aside.

Mate, serious question, have you ever read a history book? Your responses are coming across like you have not. 

Personality has fuck all to do with history, being fun person is immaterial to historians, they are not recording the people who they would want to have a beer with. 

Tywin has been an integral part of the last 40 years of Westeros History

  • Youngest ever Hand
  • Served as Hand under 3 kings
  • 21 years, one of the longest stints as Hand
  • Son-in-law was king
  • Two grandsons were kings
  • Daughter Queen, two sons kingslayers

 

and that is only the tip of the iceberg. Tywin is not going to be as significant as Aerys or Robert to historians but he absolutely will be more important than Robb. 

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Its like Sun Ce, his rule was like as long as Robbs,

no, it is not. Sun Ce was a notable leader for almost a decade, Robb 10 months. Sun Ce far, far more successful in his campaign than Robb. 

The fact that the closest example you can bring up was someone whose legacy was built over a period 10 times longer than Robb's rule speaks for itself. 

 

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Neither was Robb, he was a pretender to an extinct throne (like the Welsh example I gave you) but not an actual king, not officially.  He has been dead for around a year and both of his 'kingdoms' (and I say that pretty loosely, as he had little control over either while he lived) are both under the crowns domain.

But where as England never left Waels, the days of KL control on Robbs kingdoms are numbered. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is no succession of his crown given the majority of his lords have all swore their fealty to the crown. 

Except for the will that Robb wrote, or basic Westeros law.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is debatable if history will remember either Renly or Robb as kings, they will likely be regarded as pretenders. Joffrey and Tommen had the High Septon legitimize their crowns, it is a shame that Robb had no real equivalent of that, but the reality was that he was one of four people claiming to be king of the North

Ned was actually the Hand of the King, ruled the North 20 times longer than Robb and played a key role in not one, not two but three major civil wars (commander in two, his arrest/execution helped propel the third). His attempt to usurp the throne, and with a grand maester being able to document it, will be pretty significant. 

But Robb was more then just a romantic pretender who fought flawlessly to rescue his family and gets betrayed over a woman. He was a warg. The young wolf, a child who truly personified Stark. Its a catchy story.

Neds a good story too, just not great. He may have left a bigger carbon footprint but its not romantic (except for the lyanna issue, but thats swept under the rug) 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Technically nor was Robb. Now it is more than possible that the North will become an independent realm again thanks to one of Robb's siblings, but that dynasty will be started with them, they will outshine Robb.

Independence in the future boosts Robb's rep, but it will significantly boost the Stark who achieves it. 

The dynasty started with Robb. Sansa was not just heir to winterfell, she was a princess. Rickons not just a bartering chip for Wyman, hes his king. 

Whatever his sibilings achieve will be because of Robbs angry subjects. Theyll outshine him, I agree

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, the battle of the blackwater ended the war, or if we want to be technical the war is still ongoing with Stannis and Balon's successor still claiming to be king. 

Stannis' war continues and Euron started a new war, neither has to do with Robbs war

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

To the reader of the series who see the Starks as the heroes of the series. History is not written like that and more importance is always going to be focused on the more significant , which the king of Westeros is. 

Joffrey's reign was longer than Robb's, was killed by a relative (who broke guest rights), was successful in uniting the realm, was victorious in the battle of blackwater and more importantly, there is simply going to be more for historians to work with on him. He, as the heir of the king. will have been written about more than Robb, there were many maesters in the capital during his reign, far more diplomacy between his government and other factions. By contrast Robb's pretty much in the dark when it comes to future historians, no maester in his army covering him, only letters sent (and ignored) to Lysa.

Historians work on what they can prove, what they can source and Robb is going to be something of a mystery to them. 

For the reader of this book that focuses heavily on the Starks the Red Wedding carries more significance than the purple, but that is not going to be true of historians. The occupiers of the Iron Throne will always take central stage. 

clearly downplaying something which historians don't. A young handsome King (who was already notable for his questionable birth) who has just pretty much won the war of the five kings is assassinated on his wedding day with the chief suspects being his uncle and the bride he was formally betrothed to? Historians live for this shit, as do playwrights.  

Joffreys a fun story, very. Questionable birth and a terrible fiance. But he wasnt calling the shots and never left starved KL during his reign. He had no magic nor revived a kingdom. 

Joffreys death and the general fallout of the PW resulted in one death and one escaped hostage, in contrast to many kills and many captured hostages. Tommen jumped right into line in Margerys bed and Tywins gameplay.

The maesters will write whatever, but when old nan asks some kid in Westeros future what story do you want to hear, the young wolf or Joffrey, the kid should go with Stark.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, that is pretty common in huge civil wars. 

No its not, armies dont usually disappear while camping next to friends at a wedding.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

When? I don't recall that, from what we saw Robb is protected from battle. He is not another Robert. 

"Robb, where is Grey Wind?"

"In the yard, with a haunch of mutton. I told the kennelmaster to see that he was fed."

"You always kept him with you before."

"A hall is no place for a wolf. He gets restless, you've seen. Growling and snapping. I should never have taken him into battle with me. He's killed too many men to fear them now. Jeyne's anxious around him, and he terrifies her mother."

And there's the heart of it, Catelyn thought. "He is part of you, Robb. To fear him is to fear you."

"I am not a wolf, no matter what they call me." Robb sounded cross. "Grey Wind killed a man at the Crag, another at Ashemark, and six or seven at Oxcross. If you had seen - "

"I saw Bran's wolf tear out a man's throat at Winterfell," she said sharply, "and loved him for it."

"That's different. The man at the Crag was a knight Jeyne had known all her life. You can't blame her for being afraid. Grey Wind doesn't like her uncle either. He bares his teeth every time Ser Rolph comes near him."

 

Robbs protected in battle by Greywind

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't get your point here? You claimed the entire Riverlands had strong feelings for him, read back your own posts if you have forgotten. It is simply not the case, the Riverlanders despise both the lions and wolves, they are not going to be thinking fondly of either. 

Dude, strong feelings-despised, same thing. Life under the mongols probably wasnt great but Genghis is still pretty damn famous.

Robb changed the Riverlands. He'll be remembered by that, along with his back story. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

one of five, he was Hand for 20 years the others a year. We already know that Tywin is going to be remembered a in universe history book already exists and Tywin is a pretty prominent part of it. 

Your personal feelings for the character are not going to change that, you can argue he is not deserving of it but the truth of the matter is its already happened.  

Yes, that book commissioned by Tywin to teach Tommen how to read or something thats mostly made up by Pycelle quotes. 

My personal feeling is that hes Bill Belichick. I may not like him but im well aware of his merit and what he deserves 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Mate, serious question, have you ever read a history book? Your responses are coming across like you have not. 

Personality has fuck all to do with history, being fun person is immaterial to historians, they are not recording the people who they would want to have a beer with. 

Sure. And I know when I should put it down and when I stay entertained.  

People know the story of Richard I because he was in the crusades, banished the Jews and gave his kingdom to John with his magna carta, but hes really remembered for being named after a lion.

Henry VIII defeated Rome and killed plenty of advisors along the way, yet his failed relationships is always the juicer conversation. 

Sex sells. Personalitys always more fun. 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin has been an integral part of the last 40 years of Westeros History

  • Youngest ever Hand
  • Served as Hand under 3 kings
  • 21 years, one of the longest stints as Hand
  • Son-in-law was king
  • Two grandsons were kings
  • Daughter Queen, two sons kingslayers

 

and that is only the tip of the iceberg. Tywin is not going to be as significant as Aerys or Robert to historians but he absolutely will be more important than Robb. 

If you were to read a textbook, yould notice his name kept appearing, but in the chapters titled Aerys or Tyrion. Tywins an addition to the story, Robbs the beginning

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

no, it is not. Sun Ce was a notable leader for almost a decade, Robb 10 months. Sun Ce far, far more successful in his campaign than Robb. 

The fact that the closest example you can bring up was someone whose legacy was built over a period 10 times longer than Robb's rule speaks for itself. 

 

Well I thought Sun Ce was similar because of their famous father and younger sibiling, plus they only went to war to rescue their mothers brother and died relatively young.

So if your only in the spotligjt for a breif time you cant live on in history? What about Spartacus, or Calico Jack? Neither accomplished anything but a noose and a story. But its a good story

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Robb will be a tiny footnote in the history books.  He didn't lord over winterfell very long.  He lost the north to the ironborn.  He broke his oath to the Freys.  He killed a bannerman who had given him good service.  It won't look good.  You can bet the Starks will try to erase this from the history books.  

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On 9/21/2018 at 11:57 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I don't remember Ned being in charge of any battles. 

Ned led the forces that relieved Robert at the battle of the bells. Ned lifted the seige of Storms end. Ned led the van into KL, representing Robert 's forces during the sack. I'm sure he was in charge of the Northern forces who put down Balon's rebellion. 

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On 9/23/2018 at 12:12 AM, John Suburbs said:

Robb also has two things that his father does not: a cool nickname and a direwolf.

In the thousands of years of Stark rule and lordship, there are probably any number of lord Robb and Eddard Starks. So in a few hundred years, when all the battles and intrigues and politics of this time have faded from memory, our Robb and Eddard will be largely indistinguishable from the last dozen. But the Young Wolf? That's a name that singers write songs about. And a Young Wolf who had a pet direwolf who would charge into battle and tear men's heads off, and then that gets conflated into the Young Wolf and the direwolf becoming one and the same and now you have a mythical figure who can change shape and was feared throughout the land and only defeated by the most evil of lords who took advantage of his love for the most beautiful woman in the land. What a way to get the maids out of their small clothes.

The maesters, of course, will keep an accurate history, but for a largely illiterate population where the oral traditional is still strong, this is how Robb will be remembered. Ned, not so much.

This. 

Historically maybe Robb won't be very significant, but his young age, his rebellious cause, all coupled with a story about romance and betrayal AND a direwolf have the makings of a song people may sing forever. 

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On 9/25/2018 at 7:06 AM, Hugorfonics said:

But where as England never left Waels, the days of KL control on Robbs kingdoms are numbered. 

Are they? That seems debatable, but regardless if it does happen the person who wins and sustains that independence will be the one glorified. 

As it stands much of the Northern rulers renewed  their fealty to the crown. 

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Except for the will that Robb wrote,

He's been dead for a year, no one seems to care about his will, most have sworn new vows of fealty to the crown. 

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or basic Westeros law.

Yeah, I think you are confused about this. What law are you talking about?

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But Robb was more then just a romantic pretender who fought flawlessly to rescue his family and gets betrayed over a woman. He was a warg.

Yeah its been firmly established that the few people who even believe in Wargs hate them

Bran looked at him, his eyes wide. "What?"
"Warg. Shapechanger. Beastling. That is what they will call you, if they should ever hear of your wolf dreams."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There's giants in the Frostfangs, and wargs, and worse things," said Lark the Sisterman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A rebel and a turncloak, aye, and a bastard and a warg as well. Janos Slynt might be gone, but his lies lingered. "I know what they say." Jon had heard the whispers, had seen men turn away when he crossed the yard. 
 
The Starks and North will be downplaying him being a warg, it will not be a reason why he is celebrated. We the reader think its cool, the people of Westeros don't. 
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The young wolf, a child who truly personified Stark. Its a catchy story.

How does he personify the Starks? 

The Starks words are Winter is Coming, Robb  ignored those words. In the last three centuries Cregan Stark has been the man who personified the Starks and he refused to commit fully to war while it was still summer and harvests could still be taken.  Robb abandoning his duty was  not exactly admired back in the North

"It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the ghosts."

 

 

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Neds a good story too, just not great. He may have left a bigger carbon footprint but its not romantic (except for the lyanna issue, but thats swept under the rug) 

You are mistaking fairytales with history. Historians don't prioritize historical figures on romance but impact. 

 

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The dynasty started with Robb.

No, it was not. Manderly, Dustin, Ryswell, Cerwyn, Hornwood and Locke have all sworn vows to Bolton and the Tommen. 

Now they can break those vows in the future, but Robb has no dynasty, his lords have moved on. 

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Sansa was not just heir to winterfell, she was a princess. Rickons not just a bartering chip for Wyman, hes his king. 

According to who? Robb died 2 and a half books back find one quote that refers to Rickon as king?

 

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Whatever his sibilings achieve will be because of Robbs angry subjects. Theyll outshine him, I agree

They are no longer his subjects, they've moved on. 

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Stannis' war continues and Euron started a new war, neither has to do with Robbs war

There was no 'Robb war'. No name has been given to it, that is how significant it was. Robb, like Renly, is a minor character in Stannis' war against the Crown. 

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Joffreys a fun story, very. Questionable birth and a terrible fiance. But he wasnt calling the shots

He was King, it does not matter which of his subordinates was calling the shots, they are serve him. Historians don't stop covering the crown because he has prominent advisors, they go into depth about it, they get to talk more about it, not less. 

 

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and never left starved KL during his reign. He had no magic nor revived a kingdom. 

and?

You are once again mistaken what is important to fairy tale writers and what is important to historians. 

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Joffreys death and the general fallout of the PW resulted in one death and one escaped hostage, in contrast to many kills and many captured hostages. 

eh? Quality trumps quantity. 

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The maesters will write whatever, but when old nan asks some kid in Westeros future what story do you want to hear, the young wolf or Joffrey, the kid should go with Stark.

lol that is my point entirely, you are referring to fairy tales not history. 

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No its not, armies dont usually disappear while camping next to friends at a wedding.

They didn't disappear. 

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Robbs protected in battle by Greywind

As did 50 odd bodyguards. Robb saw as much battle as any commander. 

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Dude, strong feelings-despised, same thing. Life under the mongols probably wasnt great but Genghis is still pretty damn famous.

lol you are really comparing someone who ruled for over 20 years and left a united kingdom with Robb? Come the fuck on. 

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Robb changed the Riverlands.

No, he did not. All the Riverlords are now sworn to Tommen. 

 

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Yes, that book commissioned by Tywin

No, by Robert. 

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to teach Tommen how to read or something thats mostly made up by Pycelle quotes. 

No it is not. You clearly have not read it. 

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Sure. And I know when I should put it down and when I stay entertained.  

History is far more entertaining than fairy tales. 

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People know the story of Richard I because he was in the crusades, banished the Jews and gave his kingdom to John with his magna carta, but hes really remembered for being named after a lion.

lol no, he's not. 

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Henry VIII defeated Rome and killed plenty of advisors along the way, yet his failed relationships is always the juicer conversation. 

How does this relate to Robb?

And you are wrong,  Cromwell and Wolsey are two of the most significant none royal people of history, there is more written and known about them than any of the many pretenders during the tudor period. 

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Sex sells. Personalitys always more fun. 

What personality? Robb is one of the most vanilla characters in the series. 

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If you were to read a textbook, yould notice his name kept appearing, but in the chapters titled Aerys or Tyrion. Tywins an addition to the story, Robbs the beginning

How so? 

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Well I thought Sun Ce was similar because of their famous father and younger sibiling, plus they only went to war to rescue their mothers brother and died relatively young.

Sun Ce was hugely prominent for over a decade. The realms he ruled were not lost while he lived. Very, very poor  comparison. 

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So if your only in the spotligjt for a breif time you cant live on in history? What about Spartacus,

Spartacus was at war for 5 years. However his fame derides from the 19th century, before that he was a smaller part of the Pompey/Crassus legend. Communism elevated him. 

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or Calico Jack?

Who?

 

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On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Are they? That seems debatable, but regardless if it does happen the person who wins and sustains that independence will be the one glorified. 

As it stands much of the Northern rulers renewed  their fealty to the crown. 

He's been dead for a year, no one seems to care about his will, most have sworn new vows of fealty to the crown. 

Words are wind. Jaime swore an oath to Aerys too.

Im pretty sure the wills gonna be a thing

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, I think you are confused about this. What law are you talking about?

The clear law of succession. Heres Robb talking about it

"A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her."

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah its been firmly established that the few people who even believe in Wargs hate them

Bran looked at him, his eyes wide. "What?"
"Warg. Shapechanger. Beastling. That is what they will call you, if they should ever hear of your wolf dreams."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There's giants in the Frostfangs, and wargs, and worse things," said Lark the Sisterman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A rebel and a turncloak, aye, and a bastard and a warg as well. Janos Slynt might be gone, but his lies lingered. "I know what they say." Jon had heard the whispers, had seen men turn away when he crossed the yard. 
 
The Starks and North will be downplaying him being a warg, it will not be a reason why he is celebrated. We the reader think its cool, the people of Westeros don't. 

They may not think its cool but theyll think its interesting and memorable. And im not sure how much they can downplay Greywind unless Nymeria and his brothers disappear.

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

How does he personify the Starks? 

He has a wolf

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

You are mistaking fairytales with history. Historians don't prioritize historical figures on romance but impact. 

Impact matters. If you make no impact you dont get a chance to be remembered, but if its not a good story it wont fascinate historians and children. 

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

No, it was not. Manderly, Dustin, Ryswell, Cerwyn, Hornwood and Locke have all sworn vows to Bolton and the Tommen. 

Now they can break those vows in the future, but Robb has no dynasty, his lords have moved on. 

According to who? Robb died 2 and a half books back find one quote that refers to Rickon as king?

All those lords hate Bolton/Lannister, they all want revenge

 

"My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."

Something about the way Lord Wyman said that chilled Davos to the bone. "If it is justice that you want, my lord, look to King Stannis. No man is more just."

Robett Glover broke in to add, "Your loyalty does you honor, my lord, but Stannis Baratheon remains your king, not our own."

"Your own king is dead," Davos reminded them, "murdered at the Red Wedding beside Lord Wyman's son."

"The Young Wolf is dead," Manderly allowed, "but that brave boy was not Lord Eddard's only son. 

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

He was King, it does not matter which of his subordinates was calling the shots, they are serve him. Historians don't stop covering the crown because he has prominent advisors, they go into depth about it, they get to talk more about it, not less. 

When the king is a puppet his advisors become more famous like Cersei to Joff or Cersei to Tommen

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

lol that is my point entirely, you are referring to fairy tales not history. 

Its Westeros history, its filled with fairy tales. Im not sure what Florian the fool or Symond Silvereyes did but I bet its a fairy tale

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

No it is not. You clearly have not read it. 

Of course I have

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Who?

John Rackham, some pirate. Hes not even that cool, not like Henry Avery. Their infamy and adventures were short lived yet so fantastic the stories live on

John Brown unfortunately failed when he tried to start the civil war earlier, if the south won he might be found in the archives as some terrorist. They didnt, and his breif period in history remains a beacon of bravery and righteousness 

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On 9/19/2018 at 2:53 AM, honorable men said:

Don't think its going to look too favorable for Robb Stark. but to the Northerners, they won't ever be able sit comfortably until every guilty party pays their fair share. Including the suspicious quick pardoning (Goodbrook, Moote etc)  by the Crown. Everyone might be viewed as a culprit. Severing ties below the Neck and only interacting with the rest of the 7k until its absolutely necessary for generations to come.

You're right about everyone who isn't a Northerner forming negative opinions of Robb Stark.  They won the war and they get to write the history books.  Northern opinion won't matter much though.  They are a beaten people who will soon starve.  The young wolf will not be remembered long.

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Words are wind. Jaime swore an oath to Aerys too.

I agree, words are wind. But if a Stark is king/queen in the future it will be on their own merit, as a year later none of the Northern lords have bothered to do anything about his will and most have sworn fealty to Tommen. 

Robb was fighting a war of independence, he failed and the majority of his lords, however begrudgingly, switched sides. 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im pretty sure the wills gonna be a thing

Yeah, history does not really work like that. Secret wills that pop up years later are never taken seriously. 

 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The clear law of succession. Heres Robb talking about it

"A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her."

Robb can talk about what he likes, but that was two and a half books ago and this heir was never named and more importantly most of his nobles have moved on. 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They may not think its cool but theyll think its interesting and memorable. And im not sure how much they can downplay Greywind unless Nymeria and his brothers disappear.

Of course they can. It is an animal that killed a dozen or so men. In a world of dragons and fields of fire that is not as cool as it sounds to you

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He has a wolf

and?

He and his wolf died a few months after his 16th birthday, his wolf was not that much help in the long run.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Impact matters. If you make no impact you dont get a chance to be remembered, but if its not a good story it wont fascinate historians and children. 

lol history is not written with the mind to entertain children and even if it was, 10 months is incredibly short, he won a few battles.  

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

All those lords hate Bolton/Lannister, they all want revenge

lol so?

Do you think they are the first people to swear fealty to people they hated? What a bizarre argument to make. 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

"My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."

Something about the way Lord Wyman said that chilled Davos to the bone. "If it is justice that you want, my lord, look to King Stannis. No man is more just."

Robett Glover broke in to add, "Your loyalty does you honor, my lord, but Stannis Baratheon remains your king, not our own."

"Your own king is dead," Davos reminded them, "murdered at the Red Wedding beside Lord Wyman's son."

"The Young Wolf is dead," Manderly allowed, "but that brave boy was not Lord Eddard's only son. 

Not one of those quotes refer to Rickon as king. How does any of the above quotes prove your point that Rickon is now king?

Did you forget your claim or were you simply hoping I had?

Robb has been dead for two and a half books, no one has crowned a successor and many of the Northern lords have sworn fealty to the throne. 

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When the king is a puppet his advisors become more famous like Cersei to Joff or Cersei to Tommen

They become, at best, as famous, not more. By all means give real life examples.

The enemies of the crown don't become more famous as a result though, so not sure what point you are trying to make,. 

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Its Westeros history, its filled with fairy tales. Im not sure what Florian the fool or Symond Silvereyes did but I bet its a fairy tale

They are people from before written history, the chances are that they never existed or are completely changed from who they are. This is my point, historians record history, singers and fairy tales don't as new singers/ storytellers add and subtract what they want, names are often changed, last names are rarely a factor as a singer will make more money by singing about a local hero. 

You are actually arguing my point here. 

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Of course I have

Clearly you have not if you are claiming Pycelle is the primary 'author'. 

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John Rackham, some pirate. Hes not even that cool, not like Henry Avery. Their infamy and adventures were short lived yet so fantastic the stories live on

Avery's infamy was not short lived. he was infamous for decades due to never being caught allowing writers to speculate on what he was up to and associating him with other crimes. 

Robb's dead, there will be no speculation of his future adventures as he is dead. However there may well be for Renly given 'he' led the Vanguard in the most important battle of the war of the five kings. Given that Renly was loved by the commons there is more chance of Westeros romanticizing Renly than Robb. 

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On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

I agree, words are wind. But if a Stark is king/queen in the future it will be on their own merit, as a year later none of the Northern lords have bothered to do anything about his will and most have sworn fealty to Tommen. 

Robb was fighting a war of independence, he failed and the majority of his lords, however begrudgingly, switched sides. 

Except its all a farce for the majority and the minority includes Blackfish

On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, history does not really work like that. Secret wills that pop up years later are never taken seriously. 

 

Robb can talk about what he likes, but that was two and a half books ago and this heir was never named and more importantly most of his nobles have moved on. 

A secret will was enough for Doran to mutate it and sacrifice his son. 

Robbs talk continued into naming Jon heir in front of Riverland and Northern lords. 

But if it didnt, Sansas heir. Or the boys if theyre discovered. Thats basic law, when theres no will the heir gets bequeathed. 

On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Of course they can. It is an animal that killed a dozen or so men. In a world of dragons and fields of fire that is not as cool as it sounds to you

and?

He and his wolf died a few months after his 16th birthday, his wolf was not that much help in the long run.

No, its cool. Wargs are cool. Sigils are cool. Warging into your sigil, very cool

On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

lol history is not written with the mind to entertain children and even if it was, 10 months is incredibly short, he won a few battles.  

Yea I remember Oxcross, Joff and Lancel had all sorts of stories

On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Not one of those quotes refer to Rickon as king. How does any of the above quotes prove your point that Rickon is now king?

Did you forget your claim or were you simply hoping I had?

I was hoping you could understand subtlety.

Glover says hes not our king, Davos says you have no king, Wyman brings up Rickon.

Shits pretty obvious man

On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Robb has been dead for two and a half books, no one has crowned a successor and many of the Northern lords have sworn fealty to the throne. 

Yea youve said that now like 3 times this post. 

On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

They become, at best, as famous, not more. By all means give real life examples.

The enemies of the crown don't become more famous as a result though, so not sure what point you are trying to make,. 

Emperor Xian is far less famous then Cao Cao, which was exactly why there was a rebellion in the first palce. But he stopped being a child, I cant think of any child king that "ruled" during a rebellion and was murdered before puberty. Maybe one of those Edwards, Margaret of Anjous kid. Or another Edward in Richard IIIs tower. Neither are great examples, but in any case their advisors are more famous. Can you think of some?

On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

They are people from before written history, the chances are that they never existed or are completely changed from who they are. This is my point, historians record history, singers and fairy tales don't as new singers/ storytellers add and subtract what they want, names are often changed, last names are rarely a factor as a singer will make more money by singing about a local hero. 

You are actually arguing my point here. 

Nah bro, I hardly ever am.

Aemon the dragonkinght is not before written history. Theres nothing to suggest Florian the fool is either, especially since he was a knight. 

Historians record everything. Most times people take a shit, its not remembered unless read by Samwell. When shit is interesting like Tywin itll be remembered. Florian was interesting, so was Robb, or King Stark, or Young Wolf, or whatever name anyone wll give him

On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Clearly you have not if you are claiming Pycelle is the primary 'author'. 

What? I never said that. How are convinced i havent read twoiaf? Why would i lie about that?

 

On 9/29/2018 at 2:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Avery's infamy was not short lived. he was infamous for decades due to never being caught allowing writers to speculate on what he was up to and associating him with other crimes. 

Robb's dead, there will be no speculation of his future adventures as he is dead. However there may well be for Renly given 'he' led the Vanguard in the most important battle of the war of the five kings. Given that Renly was loved by the commons there is more chance of Westeros romanticizing Renly than Robb. 

Yea Averys very cool disappearing like that, like Jimmy Hoffa. But Rackham was swinging. Why would a pirate who prowels on fishermen be that famous? Well, he mutanied against Vane (equally unimpressively short carrer yet famous) refused a pardon, sailed with two women (Ann Boney Mary Reed, famous for practically nothing but a semi nice story) and sailed the jolly roger. (You know, the famous looking flag) Pirates are famous for being terrifying and cool, similar to Robb.

But about civil wars, John Brown will always be famous, at least for us Yankees. In the south they probably like Stonewall Jackson more. Great commander, won a few battles. Killed after a couple of years (by accident from one of his own soldiers after a great victory) yet still very famous. 

 

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On 10/1/2018 at 4:12 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Except its all a farce for the majority

How exactly is it a farce? 

Oaths made begrudgingly are still oaths, rebels who supported pretenders and then revert back to the Throne might not like it,  they might soon betray those oaths but those oaths still count. 

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and the minority includes Blackfish

The Blackfish is a private citizen. His opinion is not really going to matter. 

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A secret will was enough for Doran to mutate it and sacrifice his son. 

I'm not sure your point, what secret will are you talking about here?

And history will not consider Viserys a king of Westeros, he will be known as the beggar 'prince' and, like Robb, a minor footnote in history overshadowed by their more successful siblings. 

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Robbs talk continued into naming Jon heir in front of Riverland and Northern lords. 

and?

It has been a year, no one has honoured that will. He could have named Hot Pie as the new High Septon, it would not have made any difference, he was without the authority to see his wishes granted. He died and his faction changed sides (many before he actually died). 

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But if it didnt, Sansas heir. Or the boys if theyre discovered. Thats basic law, when theres no will the heir gets bequeathed. 

Quote this basic law you are referring to?

Pretenders don't get to make up laws, nor do they get to give away kingdoms that no longer exist. If one of Robb's siblings starts another rebellion and wins they will be winning power for themselves. 

Robb lost everything, he had nothing to leave an heir. 

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No, its cool. Wargs are cool. Sigils are cool. Warging into your sigil, very cool

To the reader, not to the people of Westeros, especially not the Starks

speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.

or the people of the North, Wyman is insulted that Robb is called a warg

"The Freys are no better. They speak of wargs and skinchangers and assert that it was Robb Stark who slew my Wendel. The arrogance of it! They do not expect the north to believe their lies

 

You are mistaking your own thoughts on what is cool with the people of Westeros' view. This conversation is about how the people of Westeros will remember him. 

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Yea I remember Oxcross, Joff and Lancel had all sorts of stories

Yup, none were romantic. Oxcross is unlikely to be a battle that is remembered by future generations as it was insignificant in the outcome of the war of the five kings.

Quote

I was hoping you could understand subtlety.

lol come on. You claimed Rickon was regarded as a king and when I asked you to back it up you spammed the thread with quotes that back you up. Not one of them even suggested that Rickon was considered as the new king. 

 

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Glover says hes not our king, Davos says you have no king, Wyman brings up Rickon.

Yes, in the same discussion that Wyman offers his allegiance to Stannis in retrn

"My bannermen include a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights. I can deliver King Stannis the allegiance of all the lands east of the White Knife, from Widow's Watch and Ramsgate to the Sheepshead Hills and the headwaters of the Broken Branch. All this I pledge to do if you will meet my price."

He is not trying to make Rickon king, but the Lord of the North. 

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Shits pretty obvious man

Clearly it was not as you somehow ignored Wyman's offer. 

Quote

Yea youve said that now like 3 times this post. 

Because it is a valid point. GRRM even points out that originally in the 5 year gap Jon would still be Lord Commander. 

GRRM: The Jon Snow stuff was even worse, because at the end of Storm he gets elected Lord Commander. I'm picking up there, and writing "Well five years ago, I was elected Lord Commander. Nothing much has happened since then, but now things are starting to happen again." I finally, after a year, said "I can't make this work."

 

The will was never important, it was never going to be used. The fact that for 2 and a half books and all the sample chapters of book 6 fail to bring it back up makes this more than clear. 

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Emperor Xian is far less famous then Cao Cao,

lol you are comparing Robb's 10 months in power to the life of Cao Cao?

and you are contradicting yourself, you claimed that Tywin would not be remembered but if any character is similar to Cao Cao in the series it is Tywin with his huge influence for 40 years. 

Quote

 

which was exactly why there was a rebellion in the first palce. But he stopped being a child, I cant think of any child king that "ruled" during a rebellion and was murdered before puberty.

Joffrey was 13 when he died. Puberty for boys begins at

 

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Nah bro, I hardly ever am.

eh?

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Aemon the dragonkinght is not before written history.

Not one person claimed he was. 

Quote

 

Theres nothing to suggest Florian the fool is either, especially since he was a knight. 

Florian was a figure who existed before knights came to westeros

During the long centuries when the First Men reigned supreme in Westeros, countless petty kingdoms rose and fell in the riverlands. Their histories, entwined and embroidered with myth and song, are largely forgotten, save for the names of a few legendary kings and heroes whose deeds are recorded on weathered stones in runes whose meanings are even now disputed at the Citadel. Thus, whilst singers and storytellers may regale us with colorful tales of Artos the Strong, Florian the Fool, Nine-Finger Jack, Sharra the Witch Queen, and the Green King of the Gods Eye, the very existence of such personages must be questioned by the serious scholar.

Had you actually read the world book like you claimed you did you'd know this

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Historians record everything. Most times people take a shit, its not remembered unless read by Samwell. When shit is interesting like Tywin itll be remembered. Florian was interesting, so was Robb, or King Stark, or Young Wolf, or whatever name anyone wll give him

He's not that interesting, he led a short term rebellion that lasted months rather than years. 

Quote

What? I never said that. How are convinced i havent read twoiaf? Why would i lie about that?

From this and other conversations. 

 

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Oh, trust and believe.

With the way this series is ending, this generation of Starks (and, to a lesser extent, their parents) are going to be viewed as quasi-mythological demi-gods. On the level of Garth Greenhand, Durran Godsgrief, Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever and the Grey King.

All of them. I can see the names now.

  • Robb - The Young Wolf. It might even change to The Red Wolf given his hair coloring, the amount of blood he spilled on the battlefield (be it directly or indirectly) and his own tragically bloody end at the Red Wedding.
  • JonThe White Wolf. What with his paternal Targaryen heritage (Rhaegar's hair was so blonde it was almost white), the color of snow, the coloring of his direwolf Ghost, confirmation from the show. It can even be ironic given his ties to the black knights of the Night's Watch and/or it can refer to his relative wisdom and purity. Jon is also likely to become the new King of Winter given Robb's will and the color most attributed to winter is....
  • SansaThe Winged Wolf. Often called a bird by the Hound, she is likely to marry an Arryn of the Eyrie, she is already known as the she-wolf who sprouted bat wings (interesting given that the sigil of her maternal grandmother, a Whent of Harrenhal, and the sigil of the House Lothston who the Whents served at Harrenhal were both bats) who fled the carnage at the Purple Wedding. Sansa is even the mother of the Brotherhood of the Winged Knights. She is likely to be the main force in the restoration of House Stark. So she might be called The Lady Wolf because of her political gameplay, her beauty and femininity and her chief role in making Winterfell a home worth living in again.
  • AryaThe Faceless Wolf. Even if we overlook the fact that she is going to be something of a freelancing Faceless Man only occasionally revealing her identity as Arya Stark, there are going to be so many questions regarding her true identity and whereabouts with Jeyne was impersonating her. There's going to be so many people debating whether or not Jeyne was the real Arya. Jeyne does not have the Stark looks and Arya is widely known for looking exactly like Lyanna, a Stark beauty. She was called Horseface because she had a long face; Jeyne does not. This is known but it will be debated. Out of everyone, Arya might be tied with Bran as being the one Stark who looks purely mythological.
  • BranThe Three-Eyed Wolf. There's a lot of people know Bran was not killed by Theon Greyjoy and, in fact, went beyond the Wall. The people of Winterfell will have heard that Bran was having strange dreams and that they likely told their family and friends. If Bran gets any more powerful, he's going to start talking to people through the weirwoods. And, if the show is any real indicator, Bran is going to have to leave Bloodraven's Cave and return to Winterfell as this supercomputer-mage. He's also the most powerful skinchanger of the family.
  • Rickon - What he might be called is still up for debate but I think we'll have a good idea by the end of Winds. He could be the new Young Wolf or the Little Wolf because of his age. He could be called the Lord Wolf because he will likely be the one to continue the Stark name and the Stark lordship of Winterfell if he survives. He could be called the Lost Wolf because he was so young and unguided when his family splintered and (if he dies) he never found his way back home. He could be called the Stoneborn Wolf in memory of the fact that he brought the Skagosi (the Stoneborn) back into mainstream Northern politics. He could be called the Wild Wolf or the Mad Wolf because of his temperament and/or the fact that he was effectively raised by wildlings.

Catelyn and Eddard are likely to be huge historical figures in their own right, apart from being the parents of the Super-Starks. Particularly Catelyn. Her story could become something about how a mother's love is so strong and boundless it can defy even death. However, legacy might be split in twain as the Hangwoman Lady Stoneheart is likely to become an ghost story urban legend similar to La Llorona separate and apart from Catelyn Tully.

That's not to say Cersei, Renly, Stannis, Jaime, Tywin, Mace, Margaery, Tyrion, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Walder, Roose, etc. won't be important figures.

It's just that the Starks of Winterfell and Daenerys Targaryen are going to be absolute legendary.

Patchface's prophecies are also likely to become children's nursery rhymes.

Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh,
But chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom,
       Aye aye aye

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1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Oh, trust and believe.

With the way this series is ending, this generation of Starks (and, to a lesser extent, their parents) are going to be viewed as quasi-mythological demi-gods. On the level of Garth Greenhand, Durran Godsgrief, Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever and the Grey King.

All of them. I can see the names now.

  • Robb - The Young Wolf. It might even change to The Red Wolf given his hair coloring, the amount of blood he spilled on the battlefield (be it directly or indirectly) and his own tragically bloody end at the Red Wedding.
  • JonThe White Wolf. What with his paternal Targaryen heritage (Rhaegar's hair was so blonde it was almost white), the color of snow, the coloring of his direwolf Ghost, confirmation from the show. It can even be ironic given his ties to the black knights of the Night's Watch and/or it can refer to his relative wisdom and purity. Jon is also likely to become the new King of Winter given Robb's will and the color most attributed to winter is....
  • SansaThe Winged Wolf. Often called a bird by the Hound, she is likely to marry an Arryn of the Eyrie, she is already known as the she-wolf who sprouted bat wings (interesting given that the sigil of her maternal grandmother, a Whent of Harrenhal, and the sigil of the House Lothston who the Whents served at Harrenhal were both bats) who fled the carnage at the Purple Wedding. Sansa is even the mother of the Brotherhood of the Winged Knights. She is likely to be the main force in the restoration of House Stark. So she might be called The Lady Wolf because of her political gameplay, her beauty and femininity and her chief role in making Winterfell a home worth living in again.
  • AryaThe Faceless Wolf. Even if we overlook the fact that she is going to be something of a freelancing Faceless Man only occasionally revealing her identity as Arya Stark, there are going to be so many questions regarding her true identity and whereabouts with Jeyne was impersonating her. There's going to be so many people debating whether or not Jeyne was the real Arya. Jeyne does not have the Stark looks and Arya is widely known for looking exactly like Lyanna, a Stark beauty. She was called Horseface because she had a long face; Jeyne does not. This is known but it will be debated. Out of everyone, Arya might be tied with Bran as being the one Stark who looks purely mythological.
  • BranThe Three-Eyed Wolf. There's a lot of people know Bran was not killed by Theon Greyjoy and, in fact, went beyond the Wall. The people of Winterfell will have heard that Bran was having strange dreams and that they likely told their family and friends. If Bran gets any more powerful, he's going to start talking to people through the weirwoods. And, if the show is any real indicator, Bran is going to have to leave Bloodraven's Cave and return to Winterfell as this supercomputer-mage. He's also the most powerful skinchanger of the family.
  • Rickon - What he might be called is still up for debate but I think we'll have a good idea by the end of Winds. He could be the new Young Wolf or the Little Wolf because of his age. He could be called the Lord Wolf because he will likely be the one to continue the Stark name and the Stark lordship of Winterfell if he survives. He could be called the Lost Wolf because he was so young and unguided when his family splintered and (if he dies) he never found his way back home. He could be called the Stoneborn Wolf in memory of the fact that he brought the Skagosi (the Stoneborn) back into mainstream Northern politics. He could be called the Wild Wolf or the Mad Wolf because of his temperament and/or the fact that he was effectively raised by wildlings.

Catelyn and Eddard are likely to be huge historical figures in their own right, apart from being the parents of the Super-Starks. Particularly Catelyn. Her story could become something about how a mother's love is so strong and boundless it can defy even death. However, legacy might be split in twain as the Hangwoman Lady Stoneheart is likely to become an ghost story urban legend similar to La Llorona separate and apart from Catelyn Tully.

That's not to say Cersei, Renly, Stannis, Jaime, Tywin, Mace, Margaery, Tyrion, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Walder, Roose, etc. won't be important figures.

It's just that the Starks of Winterfell and Daenerys Targaryen are going to be absolute legendary.

Patchface's prophecies are also likely to become children's nursery rhymes.

Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh,
But chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom,
       Aye aye aye

Wait... I thought Bran was the Winged Wolf.

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On 10/3/2018 at 1:49 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Quote this basic law you are referring to?

your repeating yourself

On 9/27/2018 at 7:57 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, I think you are confused about this. What law are you talking about?

 

On 9/28/2018 at 10:47 PM, Hugorfonics said:

The clear law of succession. Heres Robb talking about it

"A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her." 

Heres Jon talking

By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."

On 10/3/2018 at 1:49 AM, Bernie Mac said:

To the reader, not to the people of Westeros, especially not the Starks

speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.

or the people of the North, Wyman is insulted that Robb is called a warg

"The Freys are no better. They speak of wargs and skinchangers and assert that it was Robb Stark who slew my Wendel. The arrogance of it! They do not expect the north to believe their lies

 

You are mistaking your own thoughts on what is cool with the people of Westeros' view. This conversation is about how the people of Westeros will remember him. 

Wymans not a true Northerner though, and northerners are weird.

 

It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. "What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight.

"The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree."

"I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees."

"There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north," Ser Bartimus replied.

 

Not to mention Greatjons propaganda, claiming the boy was a true Stare to boost his image. (What a pertinent quote!)

 

And somehow after that the Greatjon became Robb's right hand, his staunchest champion, loudly telling all and sundry that the boy lord was a Stark after all, and they'd damn well better bend their knees if they didn't fancy having them chewed off.

 

From Ygritte to shrugging off Jons wargness to Sam petting every wolf he sees, we can see theyre cool

On 10/3/2018 at 1:49 AM, Bernie Mac said:

 Florian was a figure who existed before knights came to westeros

During the long centuries when the First Men reigned supreme in Westeros, countless petty kingdoms rose and fell in the riverlands. Their histories, entwined and embroidered with myth and song, are largely forgotten, save for the names of a few legendary kings and heroes whose deeds are recorded on weathered stones in runes whose meanings are even now disputed at the Citadel. Thus, whilst singers and storytellers may regale us with colorful tales of Artos the Strong, Florian the Fool, Nine-Finger Jack, Sharra the Witch Queen, and the Green King of the Gods Eye, the very existence of such personages must be questioned by the serious scholar.

How does that make sense? Florian was a knight, therefore he must have been after the Andals arrived. Its a silly book. Why trust a maester over common logic?

 

Eta.

I was comparing Joff to Xian not Robb, (Xian was a total hearb while Robb was not) nor Cao to Tywin. If anything Cao is Petyr. Cao conquered almost everything, Tywin conquered nothing. Tywin relies on strong alliances and his birth while Cao and Petyr infamously thrive on chaos and rose in the ranks despite their "modest" birth. (Also Petyr fighting Brandon reminds me of Cao tyring to kill Dong Zhou, so honorable! And totally out of the character they become.)

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

your repeating yourself

As long as you keep deflecting and making up laws I guess Will have to carry on repeating. 

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Heres Jon talking

By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow."

Yeah none of that has anything to do with your original claim about the secret will or about their being a northern king/queen. 

No one has disputed that the Starks continue to rule Winterfell or the North, the current ruler is Lady (F)Arya, the Boltons control the North via her and their Wardenship, granted by the Crown. Rickon or Bran returning throws a spanner in the works as they outrank her. None of this has anything to do with Robb's will.

It seems clear you have forgotten the original exchange between the two of us and are unwilling to read the top of this page. 

ME:  There is no succession of his crown given the majority of his lords have all swore their fealty to the crown. 

YOU: Except for the will that Robb wrote, or basic Westeros law.

Robb was a pretender, he had no authority to change the law. Perhaps if the North continued his rebellion, had crowned another you could argue that it could still happen but they didn't, the majority simply changed sides (many begrudgingly). Robb's will is as dead as he is. Any future northern rebellion starts from scratch.

 

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Wymans not a true Northerner though, and northerners are weird.

Of course he is a true Northerner. 

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It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. "What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight.

"The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree."

"I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees."

"There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north," Ser Bartimus replied.

eh? Are you incapable of sticking to the subject? None of that has anything to do with wargs. The Northmen hate them

The free folk fear skinchangers, but they honor us as well. South of the Wall, the kneelers hunt us down and butcher us like pigs. 

It is firmly established that the Northmen hate the Wargs, they don't think they are cool. 

"Warg," said Jojen Reed.
 
Bran looked at him, his eyes wide. "What?"
 
"Warg. Shapechanger. Beastling. That is what they will call you, if they should ever hear of your wolf dreams."
 
The names made him afraid again. "Who will call me?"
 
"Your own folk. In fear. Some will hate you if they know what you are. Some will even try to kill you."
 
Old Nan told scary stories of beastlings and shapechangers sometimes. In the stories they were always evil. "I'm not like that," Bran said. "I'm not. It's only dreams."

 

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How does that make sense?

It doesn't. Florian is not a real person, he's a song, a story and overtime the story has been adapted, changed to make it more interesting and understandable to  new audiences. This is precisely what I've been trying to tell you, the Maesters record history, singers sing whatever makes them money (which won't be about Robb).  

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Florian was a knight, therefore he must have been after the Andals arrived. Its a silly book.

Yeah, you are being a little obtuse now. 

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Why trust a maester over common logic?

Even the singers point out Florian was from the pre Andal times

 "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." 

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