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rotting sea cow

The Stark sucession crisis and Arya the unlikely

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13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

SO THIS.

Remember the guy who looks like the spitting image of Ned, has a better idea of how the North works and the threat it faces, has battle training, has leadership experience, is called "valiant, loyal, resourceful" by a 1000 year old wise man, is male, and most importantly, gets an OK from Robb to take his seat?

I know Jon has been dead for 2039802398 years but it's getting really tiring. He's getting the Gandalf the Grey resurrection twist, so he can be morally questionable but a good king and GRRM can make his points about ruling and resurrection at the same time. The king foreshadowing is going somewhere, his first stop is the North. 

I can't see Stannis hanging around influencing any of the succession stuff either. Ned, Cat, Robb were killed so that the Starks could learn to stand on their own feet. No one likes him, the North only follows him for Ned's little girl anyway, he got all of his good ideas from Jon, and he's forcing people to convert to a fire religion of which he's not only the One True king, but the One True Savior.

Terrible combo of character traits for a future in this series. He'll get the axe soon.

 

Well we've taken a side road from the topic.  Stannis can be an able king in the style of Roose Bolton.  They're cut from the same cloth.  Stannis broke the law when he killed Rattleshirt instead of Mance.  He had a duty to punish a deserter and Mance deserted.  Roose betrayed Robb but I can argue that it's the boy who was an outlaw.  The difference is hair thin between Roose and Mance.  These men will have quiet people and keep order. 

Arya has a fuzzy concept of right and wrong.  Whoa unto any Stark enemy past and present.  Peace is not possible under her lead.  Be thankful she's an unlikely ruler of the north.  She's Harma 2.0.

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2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Arya has a fuzzy concept of right and wrong

Why would you say that? We're privy to Arya's thoughts, and she always has considered carefully, if not agonized, over her actions and continues to feel guilt over those involving killing. Always.

(Not to re-ignite the oh-so-boring "Sansa Wars", but ) Contrast Arya with her older sister, who has moved from thinking of herself as the center around which the entire world must revolve to ... misremembering, creating new romantic self-flattering memories, and drumming in the lame justification of if it was done with good intentions, it WAS good. Sansa is for Sansa.

Moreover, Arya has a keen eye for injustices done to others, and to her friends. She puts her own life on the line many times to help. She takes responsibility for her little crew and leads them as best she can.

Arya liked to hang around her father Lord Eddard and absorbed many of the lessons he taught his boys. Arya also liked to hang around people who were doing interesting things - men, mostly - to learn. She isn't standoffish nor snobbish, or even shy, although she knows when to keep quiet and listen.

People fixate on Arya's "assassin training" while ignoring the non-lethal parts: detecting lies, telling lies, becoming other characters (which also requires empathy, understanding, and often humbling yourself), listening, evaluating information, distinguishing hearsay and opinion from likely fact, judging character, speaking multiple languages. Sounds like she's getting a good solid grounding in some of the skills she would need to rule.

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2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Stannis broke the law when he killed Rattleshirt instead of Mance. 

Not that I mean to pick on you, but as far as we've been informed, Stannis thought he WAS executing Mance. It was Melisandre who subbed in Rattleshirt, under a glamour that made it appear he was Mance. If Stannis didn't know about the substitution, it's unfair to charge him with the murder.

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15 minutes ago, zandru said:

(Not to re-ignite the oh-so-boring "Sansa Wars", but ) Contrast Arya with her older sister, who has moved from thinking of herself as the center around which the entire world must revolve to ... misremembering, creating new romantic self-flattering memories, and drumming in the lame justification of if it was done with good intentions, it WAS good. Sansa is for Sansa.

You keep doing this. So funny. :D

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1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

You keep doing this. So funny.

Frankly, I think it's pathetic. Sorry! Perhaps I need a life.

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1 minute ago, zandru said:

Frankly, I think it's pathetic. Sorry! Perhaps I need a life.

No, it just made me smile. Hope it makes you smile too!

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On 2/26/2019 at 5:07 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

SO THIS.

Remember the guy who looks like the spitting image of Ned, has a better idea of how the North works and the threat it faces, has battle training, has leadership experience, is called "valiant, loyal, resourceful" by a 1000 year old wise man, is male, and most importantly, gets an OK from Robb to take his seat?

And is sworn to the Night's Watch...

I agree with the post you quoted. There are no easy choices on this. We also have to consider what Jon will do after he is resurrected. We don't know how he will change. So, maybe when Robb's will is revealed what is supposed to be a very warm moment, is in the end only met with indifference by Jon.

 

 

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No there's nothing in any of that original post. Jon will be KITN and when Arya reveals herself she becomes a princess in the north for him to marry off for political advantage as he wills. That is her duty. That's her arc, be Arya Stark and do her duty to her family and people, or be no-one, alone, but have her freedoms, particularly to love who she would. And it is Jon that pushes her arc from the side of duty to culmination.

That's the story. And she chooses duty and Jon marries her to the Iron Throne and she becomes queen. That's why her journey begins with a first hand tour of the horrors of war caused by a queen who refused to forego the freedom of who she may love. Why she is being exposed to multiple religions and coming to tolerate all. Why she is moving through every social class. Why she is being taught the importance of mercy and the right of judgement. And will move on further to a rejection of vengeance and blanket punishment.

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One thing, after all the starks have been through, if they do get back together can you see them falling out over who is the KinN. Arya is learning skills which will make her formidable especially so if she links up with Nymeria. Rickon is too young, Bran is a bit busy and is a cripple would he be king. If we believe the other theory (you know the one) even if Robb's will sees the light of day and hasen't it gone through HR'd domain, it most likely ill turn up with him, so theres the evidence for Jon being king on the 7K's. The will says Jon, without the will its whoever turns up first and is accepted as being real and alive (moot point with Jon). At first thought Sansa or Arya would have to be married off but I dont think either of these two if they get to winterfell will be in the mood for taking any more being a puppet. Bran would be as the next trueborn son the choice everyone could accept but his destiny sees to be on a different arc. If he comes back from meeting 

Spoiler

Bloodraven, cant remember if this a spoiler or not.

3EC. Can he would he do both roles?

So at the moment no one is near to being TKitN. If the Manderleys produce Rickon then he's first up. But surely whichever one of his siblings turns up he would cede to them. Also hasen't there been wolfmaids ie Stark queens before so a precedent for Sansa and Arya or have I imagined that?. But most of all given the current circumstances in the North whoever has a claim and most importantly an army or built up sufficient credit will be king/queen.

As it stands then Rickon, followed by Sansa, given she is currently alive and is older than Arya, Jon if (apart from being dead) can get past Stannis and basically somehow knick his army.

But my favorite because she is simply the most capable and doesn't have any other baggage once she has killed everyone on her list. A lethal killer with a huge wolfpack, The North will follow that. And of course Gendry as a husband with no claim to anything (apart from being the son of a king).

 

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19 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

And is sworn to the Night's Watch...

I agree with the post you quoted. There are no easy choices on this. We also have to consider what Jon will do after he is resurrected. We don't know how he will change. So, maybe when Robb's will is revealed what is supposed to be a very warm moment, is in the end only met with indifference by Jon.

that's fine, I'd rather he be chosen as a leader than through a royal decree anyway.

I think the KitN will be a steward position anyway for him.

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Well I have a complex theory that GRRM is telling first the story of Ragnarok and also their resurrection. I suspect that if you assume that each of the Andal houses is somehow connected to the 7 gods of the septons AND to the broad theme of ragnarok then you have a pattern.

Each of the seven (or maybe nine) houses will essentially fail, to b e replaced by a bastard/cadet line set up by "wanderers" who are in some way disowned by their families, especially their fathers. Roles will change. I suspect that each of the inheritors will in some way be throw backs to the heroes in the age of legends.

1. Stormlands: The Baratheon lie is essentially dead but there are at least two male bastards. The eldest is Gendry, who was not even recognised by his father, a neglected bastard in every sense. He is however a noble character and has been a wanderer. Robert was essentially a Thor character , king of the storm lands wielding a war hammer, a womamiser and heavy drinker. The stormlands may have taken the role of "the father," but the recreated line will be via gendry "the smith."  i suspect we may find that  Gendy's mother is somehow a descendant of Argilac or Eleni. 

2. The westerlands represent the "warrior" and probably Tyr/Tue in nordic (Andal) mythology.  There are THREE candidates who might potentially fit the pattern, jaime, tyrion and Podrick (who I suspect is tyrion's son). Tyrion seems pretty much a reincarnation of Lan the clever. Tyrion was a bastard in his father's eyes.

3. The Vale. The Arryn House seems essentially dead, only the feeble Robin can save it and he probably is not an Arryn anyway. Harry the heir is possible but i also think perhaps Timmett son of Timmett, given that convoluted story of an abducted girl.  However sweet robin may ride on a falcon as the winged knight returned.

4. Dorne: Now weird though it may seem i think Arya is going to end up Queen of Dorne. there was a reason she called her wolf Nymeria. She will marry in succession Trystan Martell, some old codger and then Edrik Dayne, just as did Nymeria the first

5. The reach; The line of the original Gardiners is already dead sort of, but lives on in the Florents. Now there is a character we know well who is hated and disowned by his father but who is in fact already third in line legally for the rule of the Reach. Sure he has taken an oath but he could still be a steward of the reach. Sam seems in many ways to be a reincarnation of Garth Greenhand.

6. The iron Islands. Theon is a bastard in HIS father's eyes because he is a Greenlander and in a weird sort of way chose Ned as his father not Balon. This one is a bit of a stretch I agree.

7. The North. obviously Jon Snow the public bastard, although potentially Bran the Builder could also take over.

That really only leaves the complex and utterly confusing Riverlands. Bran. Rickon or Sansa may well inherit these, Arya has Dorne. Potentially Bran could inherit the Riverlands, Sansa still married to Tyrion has the Westerlands. Assuming that Bran has no children, Rickon could take the Riverlands after Bran

 

 

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Order of Succesion for the Starks

Before Ned death=  Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya I believe Jon Snow is last. Because he Recognize Bastard/Natural Born.

After Robb crown King of North Robb made his Jon Snow heir if no son from his body is not coming.

The Show succession is HORSE CRAP

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