An evil girl's dark heart

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Not sure what you are talking about here.  As of the end of ADWD, she had killed two people in Braavos, and one of those was on orders.   The other was Dareon, who is essentially a nobody.  And for that, the temple blinded her.  Yes, it was training, but it was also punishment and a test.  It was all three rolled into one.

We have to keep in mind the possiblity that blinding Arya was not punishment but a prize; an advancement in her training with the view of waking up her warging powers. We get some hints about this from another of Valyria's children that share characteristics with the Faceless Men:

Quote

Their eunuch priests wore eyeless hoods in honor of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the "higher truths" of creation that lay concealed behind the world's illusions.

<...>

An essential part of their doctrine was an extreme abnegation of self; only by freeing themselves of human vanity could men hope to become one with the godhood. Accordingly, the Boash'i put aside even their own names, and spoke of themselves as "a man" or "a woman" rather than say "I" or "me" or "mine." 

 

[Kandrax]

5 hours ago, wia said:

why he didn't try to talk his way out with Yoren seeing how he's perfectly sociable; why Rorge is calling Biter Biter when he knew Biter before they met Jaqen, but it's Jaqen who named him; why Rorge who is absolutely uncontrollable rises in the ranks of Brave Companions very fast; why Rorge knows Jaqen's whereabouts when Arya asks; why Rorge and Biter, violent as they are, generally get along with Jaqen when they've had opportunities to kill him; why the generally act as a group as opp

1) He didn't try to talk his way out because he was aware that it would be useless.

2) Maybe is Rorge one who named Biter Biter, or at least decided to use the name because he liked it. 

3) We are talking about Bloody Mummers, band of the worst scums on Planetos. Beign uncontrollable isn't problem. Rorge rised thanks to his brutality.

4) Knowing about Jaqen's whereabouts isn't strange, he could saw him entering bath.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

This is awesome--and I need to dig into it a bit more to collect my thoughts.

But have you seen @sweetsunray's theory about Arya as  fulfillment of prophecy for the Faceless Men? -

It might fit in with some of you reasoning/evidence.

Will be back when I have time to read the rest of the thread--but just wanted to say I agree that something more is up with the Faceless Men and Arya. All the stuff you cite is pointing to something more than just wanting a recruit.

 

Ill have to check it out, thank you

[Varysblackfyre321]

If I had to place Arya in terms of morals I’d say she’s a caloric neutral(as of right now). She does good on occasion still but also some bad. Her murder of the insurance sellsman seemed to me to reek of egotism-she wants(because if she doesn’t kill him the FM would discontinue her teaching) desperately for  this guy to be guilty of some bad deed so much she immediately interprets the words of the old man to mean the insurance salesmen to have cheated widows and orphans when it could have very well meant the opposite-and even if was she never ponders the insurance sellsmen should die, while the FM do not deserve to face her version of “justice”it’s unlikely there aren’t many FM who’ve murdered widows and orphans and other innocents.

But we also see her save Sam Tarly when she didn’t know him while with the FM.

I don’t see why the FM would keep her around if she wasn’t paramount to some great plan they have in store-she genuinely seems to not respect their philosophy, and has shown no real care in even trying.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 9/21/2018 at 11:03 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

OMG i totally agree!!! You can see it bleed into conversations on here alot hahah Tryion especially was made much more likable hahah

Edit- Im sure i've done it too hahah and not saying people are doing it right now. But i have wondered if the show is influencing haha

I will admit that the show sanitized plenty of the “good guys” and brushed any nuance to the “bad guys”. 

 

On 9/23/2018 at 1:56 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Well physically, one is Black and one is White. Kinda on the nose. Soon as Arya told Rorge that Jaqen sent her, he shows fear and lets her pass. He knows something at least about Jaqen. Perhaps Jaqen was the first FM? Idk. After Harrenhal though, they're both looking for Arya and follow her trail to near Salt Pans before Brienne kills them. 
Preston Jacobs does an interesting series on this where he speculates the FM are working for the Blackfyres and trying to kill Bloodraven. In it though, he brings up many points about Rorge and Biter. 

You know if they are FM perhaps their conduct when Arya first meets with Jaqen is merely a show-to enamor Arya further with this Braavoshi who doesn’t show fear even when locked up with such degenerates. 

But,then again they could have just heeded Jaqen because they think he’s some sort of demon or whatever, because Jaqen did a little magic.

[Tai Pan]

The faceless man took an interest in Arya because he sees a hateful little girl with the right type of personality for a hired killer.  Somebody with a corrupt idea of morality and justice.  Not of the squeamish type.  Jaquen saw a sociopath.  

[JaneSnow]

What about that one scene in ASOS when the Ghost of High Heart reacted really oddly to Arya. 

Quote

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . ." She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

 

[Darth Sidious]

1 hour ago, JaneSnow said:

What about that one scene in ASOS when the Ghost of High Heart reacted really oddly to Arya. 

 

I don't see redemption ahead for Arya.  Indeed she is dark heart.  Catelyn is stone heart.  Arya is dark heart. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

12 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

I thought it was the lord who smelled of death

Quote

And what about the weirwood with his brother's face, that smelled of death and darkness?

Bran also smells like death while still alive.  I think this foreshadows that the Stark children will be killing vast numbers of people in the next book.

[Sigella]

23 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t see why the FM would keep her around if she wasn’t paramount to some great plan they have in store-she genuinely seems to not respect their philosophy, and has shown no real care in even trying.

I have to dispute this. She has shown a lot of dedication imo, giving up her measly treasures and (seemingly) needle. I think they just recognice her potential, a small innocent looking child that happily murders people is a sort of assassin even Varys approves of  

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

I have to dispute this. She has shown a lot of dedication imo, giving up her measly treasures and (seemingly) needle. I think they just recognice her potential, a small innocent looking child that happily murders people is a sort of assassin even Varys approves of  

No she has not. She hides needle. She does not really give it up by tossing it away as she should have  if she was truly dedicated to the order. She murderered 3 people she judged as “bad guys” with the justification that they are bad guys-she has displayed no solid loyalty to the order or respect for its philosophy; she’s only interested in learning the ways to which seem to help her become a more effective killer. Varys would not want an assasain who must be told, the person he wants killed is some bad guy or gal-he’d approve of one to which wouldn’t care at all that the target was a saint or a devil in human skin. The FM does not have a reputation of only killing baddies and they do not pretend to. They’re unlike to not have faces of plenty of innocent little children, Arya’s general appearance isn’t reason enough to justify in keeping her around when has shown no understanding or respect for their philosophy. Seriously, it should be abundantly clear, with her only murderering the insurance man after she interprets the kindly old man’s statement to mean the insurance man had cheated widows and orphans, that genuinely doesn’t have the moral character to be an effective tool of theirs; not everyone they’ll send her after will be some bad guy and it’d be really embarrassing and damaging to their reputation if Arya has some crisis of conscience and warns a target or straight up leaves to go kill some more people off her list.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

I have to dispute this. She has shown a lot of dedication imo, giving up her measly treasures and (seemingly) needle. I think they just recognice her potential, a small innocent looking child that happily murders people is a sort of assassin even Varys approves of  

She would make  lousy assassin on command. and if the FM haven't figured it out, they will.  She still has a conscience, and a moral compass, however skewed.  She is quite unlikely to kill anyone she believes to be innocent of wrongdoing.  And she has retained way too much of her personality..

As I've pointed out above, I don't think they are training her to be an assassin in any event.  her training is more the sortof thing you would give an investigator or undercover operative, not an assassin.  Admittedly, there is some overlap, but she hasn't learned anything about actually killing people, except some theoretical info on poisons.  Btu nothing on how to actually administer them, or weapons training, or anything else that could actually help her kill people.

Note to @Varysblackfyre321; her list is getting awfully short.  The only characters on it that I can see her going after are Ilyn Payne (who has gotten some recent buildup), who doesn't really belong, and Queen Cersei, who has enough enemies already.  If I had to make a guess, I would say Payne,, who will see her coming and beat the crap out of her.

[Sigella]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No she has not. She hides needle. She does not really give it up by tossing it away as she should have  if she was truly dedicated to the order. She murderered 3 people she judged as “bad guys” with the justification that they are bad guys-she has displayed no solid loyalty to the order or respect for its philosophy; she’s only interested in learning the ways to which seem to help her become a more effective killer. Varys would not want an assasain who must be told, the person he wants killed is some bad guy or gal-he’d approve of one to which wouldn’t care at all that the target was a saint or a devil in human skin. The FM does not have a reputation of only killing baddies and they do not pretend to. They’re unlike to not have faces of plenty of innocent little children, Arya’s general appearance isn’t reason enough to justify in keeping her around when has shown no understanding or respect for their philosophy. Seriously, it should be abundantly clear, with her only murderering the insurance man after she interprets the kindly old man’s statement to mean the insurance man had cheated widows and orphans, that genuinely doesn’t have the moral character to be an effective tool of theirs; not everyone they’ll send her after will be some bad guy and it’d be really embarrassing and damaging to their reputation if Arya has some crisis of conscience and warns a target or straight up leaves to go kill some more people off her list.

Firstly, the school for hit-men might be more flexible than you give credit. Yes, Arya's only up for justified murder but she is bloody clever and cool about it when she does. The FM might choose her for jobs against people they know she'd be cool with murdering. Or they might find ways to manipulate and play her into murdering folk. Or they plan to train that stuff away and fail (what I'm hoping for) making her leave.

Also lets take a long good look at what recruits the FM might choose from. Any and all recruits must be willing to kill, be fairly intelligent, diciplined, willing to give up their whole real life,  family and friends forever. Not only does this narrow their recruitment-base a great deal, but imagine the few number of people who possess all these qualities: its not gonna be a very homogenic group, likely resulting in unconventional teaching sollutions.

So imo Jaqen struck gold in giving her the coin.

 

Arya popping people off the books might not be a big problem as long as she does it elegantly enough.

[Sigella]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

She would make  lousy assassin on command. and if the FM haven't figured it out, they will.  She still has a conscience, and a moral compass, however skewed.  She is quite unlikely to kill anyone she believes to be innocent of wrongdoing.  And she has retained way too much of her personality..

As I've pointed out above, I don't think they are training her to be an assassin in any event.  her training is more the sortof thing you would give an investigator or undercover operative, not an assassin.  Admittedly, there is some overlap, but she hasn't learned anything about actually killing people, except some theoretical info on poisons.  Btu nothing on how to actually administer them, or weapons training, or anything else that could actually help her kill people.

Note to @Varysblackfyre321; her list is getting awfully short.  The only characters on it that I can see her going after are Ilyn Payne (who has gotten some recent buildup), who doesn't really belong, and Queen Cersei, who has enough enemies already.  If I had to make a guess, I would say Payne,, who will see her coming and beat the crap out of her.

We readers knows that but the FM likely don't or might have plans how to deal.

Arya's chapters from Braavos are few and far between so maybe I read too much into her learning the finger knife or maybe you too little? Also her hit on the insurance guy and the road leading up to it can't be viewed as anything other than practical notes on how to kill people.

 

Let's not forget Walder Frey  

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

irstly, the school for hit-men might be more flexible than you give credit. Yes, Arya's only up for justified murder but she is bloody clever and cool about it when she does. The FM might choose her for jobs against people they know she'd be cool with murdering. Or they might find ways to manipulate and play her into murdering folk. Or they plan to train that stuff away and fail (what I'm hoping for) making her leave.

 

Oh so, she’s allowed to break their core philosophy and break judge her target’s moral character? Please. If she needs to have her ego stroked to get her to perform a service to the many faces god she does not belong-A FM is not supposed to not care, they(the order) should not be expected put their reputation on the line and secrets, because one of their members can’t get off his or her high-horse and recognize he or she is a part of; which is a cult of murderers, responsible for the deaths of many and thus is the last person to judge anyone about anything in regards to how good a person he or she is. She’s effective at finding ways to kill people. That’s only half of what actually matters-she has to absorb the moral tenets.  Bronn can be clever and cool in murderering someone-he would make a terrible FM because he’d unwilling to kill for the order if they do not pay him. There are plenty effective and clever killers in the world in the world, they’d be a terrible fit and even danger for the FM because they’re unwilling to give themselves completely to the order.

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

Also lets take a long good look at what recruits the FM might choose from. Any and all recruits must be willing to kill, be fairly intelligent, diciplined, willing to give up their whole real life,  family and friends forever. Not only does this narrow their recruitment-base a great deal, but imagine the few number of people who possess all these qualities: its not gonna be a very homogenic group, likely resulting in unconventional teaching sollutions.

And a recruit must be willing to be blind to their target’s individual virtues or faults, it simply isn’t their place(as Assassains), to judge others for their short-comings-they’d be unable to function if they allowed recruits who’d only feel comfortable if they took some self-gratification at killing “bad guys”. And she hasn’t shown she’s truly willing to give up her family-again she kept needle and used the very skills the FM have been teaching her to help her settle an old grudge. She has lines to her past-life she clearly is not letting go and doesn’t seem to ultimately plan to. 

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

 

 Arya popping people off the books might not be a big problem as long as she does it elegantly enough.

No. It really, really, doesn’t make sense that the FM would be totally cool with Arya using the very skills their teaching her to murder people, because she morally condemned their actions as making it so they somehow deserve to die more than others. She’s clearly not getting the point of their organization. As the Kindly old man tries to instruct Arya: 

Death holds no sweetness in this house. We are not warriors, nor soldiers, nor swaggering bravos puffed up with pride. We do not kill to serve some lord, to fatten our purses, to stroke our vanity. We never give the gift to please ourselves. Nor do we choose the ones we kill. We are but servants of the God of Many Faces.

 

Her killing Ralf and Daeron shows the kindly old man’s words aren’t getting through to her-she kills to satisfy herself instead of the many-faced god. That is something that is something the FM make clear is unacceptable.

[wia]

On 9/24/2018 at 2:25 AM, Kandrax said:

1) He didn't try to talk his way out because he was aware that it would be useless.

2) Maybe is Rorge one who named Biter Biter, or at least decided to use the name because he liked it. 

3) We are talking about Bloody Mummers, band of the worst scums on Planetos. Beign uncontrollable isn't problem. Rorge rised thanks to his brutality.

4) Knowing about Jaqen's whereabouts isn't strange, he could saw him entering bath.

2. Jaqen says it was him though.

Quote

"A man must have some name, is that not so? Biter cannot speak and Biter cannot write, yet his teeth are very sharp, so a man calls him Biter and he smiles. Are you charmed?"

A Clash of Kings - Arya II

3-4. Yea, that's a good point. I agree.

[wia]

On 9/24/2018 at 12:49 AM, Nevets said:

Most of this simply indicates that they are friendly and that Jaqen is able to exert some influence over them.  Given the amount of time they have spent together, and the fact that Jaqen is clearly more intelligent and sophisticated, this is hardly surprising.  Jaqen was probably able to talk them into Lorch's unit, which could heighten their respect for him.  Given the FM's dislike for collateral damage and killing those not prayed for, I don't think they would even remotely tolerate Saltpans.

It's one of those situations where there is significant possible gain and minimal downside.  If she does reunite with family, then the coin will likely never get used and nobody will ever be aware of its existence, or significance.  If things go badly, and she has no other options, then she will be grateful to the Hob&W for any help they give her.  And, as a scion of a Great House, she would be a potentially useful agent for them in Westeros, able to provide intel, shelter, and other assistance if needed.  It seems clear to me that her training seems aimed in this direction, focusing on intelligence gathering and undercover work, and not actually killing people.

As for the ship, the captain appeared surprised to see her, and not at all happy about it, either.   In fact he seemed quite frightened.  I think the FM have enough influence in Braavos that nobody is going to deny help to someone with the coin, especially something as simple as passage to Braavos.  And if it's close to major ports,, then there is every likelihood that Arya could wind up at one of them, right?

That ship appears to trade in the area.  Brienne saw it in Maidenpool some weeks (months?) later after her detour through Crackclaw Point.

Not sure what you are talking about here.  As of the end of ADWD, she had killed two people in Braavos, and one of those was on orders.   The other was Dareon, who is essentially a nobody.  And for that, the temple blinded her.  Yes, it was training, but it was also punishment and a test.  It was all three rolled into one.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

As for Raff, we have no idea what the FM's response will be, but I don't doubt that there will be one, as I doubt that it was sanctioned by them.  There is no way they are going to give an apprentice that much authority over a high-profile op, and killing the bodyguard of an envoy is high-profile.

 

I tried replying to you twice and it got lost. TT
Idk, maybe it's too many quotes or something.  So trying without quotes.

Most of this simply indicates that they are friendly
I don't buy FM's dislike for collateral damage and killing those not prayed for. Rorge and Biter aside.
- Jaqen was also in Brave Companions Lorch's group and I don't how it would be possible for him to avoid killing people in that period of time.
- Jaqen chose to kill people when freeing northmen. He didn't attempt to only injure them or steal a sleeping potion form a maester and put them to sleep (like Varys did when he smuggled Tyrion out of the Black Cells for example), or create a diversion, or any other thing that could've helped him to avoid killing people, or at least help him to kill as little people as possible. He didn't take any time to plan it out, he just went for it right away. Even Arya was surprised. Don't see any dislike for collateral damage in his actions.

As for being intelligent and sophisticated, then yes, I agree here. But then now all people who work for the House of B&W are like Jaqen. There are people like Brusco and Umma, for example. So perhaps it would be fair to say that I think that Rorge and Biter are connected to the House of BW, but not necessarily FM.

It's one of those situations where there is significant possible gain and minimal downside. 
FM doesn't have enough influence to even have Arya pass the customs with that coin. That coin would only work for certain people and with certain people it could even get Arya in trouble ( for example Lord of Light has a temple in Braavos, any worshipper of him would have a major dislike for Arya). So I still think that Jaqen knowing that that ship will be there is the most likely option. 'Cause otherwise the coin's probability of working is too minuscule.

Not sure what you are talking about here. 
I was talking of why in general it wouldn't be good for FM to kill people that are in some way connected to their real identity for practical reasons. It doesn't have to be for moral/religious reasons. Same goes for collateral damage: it's best to avoid it for practical reasons a lot of the time, but it can't always be avoided. Even with the coin that Arya used - there's no guarantee that her target will bite that particular coin. If he doesn't, he may pay somebody else with that coin and that somebody else might bite it and die.

Spoiler

 

Well, let's see.

1. The House makes great effort to know what's going on in the city. Therefore sometime between Swyft's party's arrival to Braavos and their arrival to the theatre, the House would be aware of who is in that party and where are they headed.
2. The House is aware of Arya's death list.
3. The House knows that Arya will kill people who she has a grudge against.

So:
- If Raff is high profile and the House didn't want him to die, all they had to do is to remove Arya from the theatre.
- If Raff is high profile and the House wanted him to die (whether by prayer or their own agenda), then they were expecting Arya to do it.
- If Raff is not high profile and the House therefore doesn't care whether he lives or dies, it's a test for Arya.

Thus, however you look at it, they knew he'd be there and they knew he'd die. If they really cared about him not dying, preventing it would be easy.

 

 

[Rufus Snow]

12 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It really, really, doesn’t make sense that the FM would be totally cool with Arya using the very skills their teaching her to murder people, because she morally condemned their actions as making it so they somehow deserve to die more than others. She’s clearly not getting the point of their organization. As the Kindly old man tries to instruct Arya: 

Death holds no sweetness in this house. We are not warriors, nor soldiers, nor swaggering bravos puffed up with pride. We do not kill to serve some lord, to fatten our purses, to stroke our vanity. We never give the gift to please ourselves. Nor do we choose the ones we kill. We are but servants of the God of Many Faces.

 

Her killing Ralf and Daeron shows the kindly old man’s words aren’t getting through to her-she kills to satisfy herself instead of the many-faced god. That is something that is something the FM make clear is unacceptable.

There's something going on here which is not the obvious, IMHO. As you say, according to what the KM says, some of the things Arya does are 'unacceptable' to the FM. yet, what do they do about it? Effectively, nothing. They accept the unacceptable, in practice - they don't punish her, they don't expel her, they don't even send her to her room with no supper. The only consequence Arya bears for killing Dareon is - as @Tucu suggested - an advancement in her training.

On 9/27/2018 at 10:13 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t see why the FM would keep her around if she wasn’t paramount to some great plan they have in store-she genuinely seems to not respect their philosophy, and has shown no real care in even trying.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the FM probably don't actually respect their philosophy either. The more I think about it, the more it reminds me of some other things. Some known, historical magickal lodges/orders in our own world have such a structure - an outer order with 'beliefs' which are presented to the outside world, but as you advance up the ranks, you reach a threshold where you enter the 'inner' order, with very different beliefs which are NOT presented to the outside world. The same effect is seen with 'the Party' in Orwell's 1984.

If you really want to probe this idea, just sit down with a good conspiracy theorist, a bottle of your favourite beverage and whisper 'Freemasons' in their ear

Next question is, what is the FM's secret plan for which Arya is so important? My take is going back towards the FM just being the Braavosi KGB/Mossad/CIA, disguised as a whack-job cult..... but I'd like to see other suggestions, too....

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/19/2018 at 6:31 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Interesting point, Jaqen' H'ghar is already dead no? The person Arya is talking to is no one. Jaqen is some long dead man isn't he? So why he no one so afraid when Arya names Jaqen?

Multiple people can have the same name. This man has been using that particular name, and gave it to Arya. So when she uses that name, she's clearly referring to him rather than any of the many deceased people who may have that name. If Jaqen had watched the original Australian version of Review (with Myles Barlow), perhaps he would have used your logic to get out of it!

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

If you really want to probe this idea, just sit down with a good conspiracy theorist, a bottle of your favourite beverage and whisper 'Freemasons' in their ear

Phew. I am so happy my darling confused [and conspiracy theorist extraordinaire] spouse doesn't read my "ice and fire book club", to put it as he would have!

The FM are very intriguing IMO. But there are two things that places them firmly on  the "good guys" camp for me. One, their firm anti slavery stand. Two, Valar Morghulis. The former naturally allies them w/ Dany, despite her heritage. I do think they will be smart enough to realise she is nothing like her Valyrian forebears. And the latter puts them in the same camp w/ the OG. 

So, I am very interested to see this plotline unfold.