An evil girl's dark heart

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Phew. I am so happy my darling confused [and conspiracy theorist extraordinaire] spouse doesn't read my "ice and fire book club", to put it as he would have!

The FM are very intriguing IMO. But there are two things that places them firmly on  the "good guys" camp for me. One, their firm anti slavery stand. Two, Valar Morghulis. The former naturally allies them w/ Dany, despite her heritage. I do think they will be smart enough to realise she is nothing like her Valyrian forebears. And the latter puts them in the same camp w/ the OG. 

So, I am very interested to see this plotline unfold.

 

 

I would not be so sure about their link to Dany. They are anti-slavery but they know of danger of the dragonlords. As Tycho puts it:

Quote

"Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit."

"My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons."

The FM training a warg to assassinate a dragonlord sound likely.

[Kandrax]

12 hours ago, wia said:

Jaqen was also in Brave Companion

Nope. He was Lorch's man, though your point still stands.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Phew. I am so happy my darling confused [and conspiracy theorist extraordinaire] spouse doesn't read my "ice and fire book club", to put it as he would have!

The FM are very intriguing IMO. But there are two things that places them firmly on  the "good guys" camp for me. One, their firm anti slavery stand. Two, Valar Morghulis. The former naturally allies them w/ Dany, despite her heritage. I do think they will be smart enough to realise she is nothing like her Valyrian forebears. And the latter puts them in the same camp w/ the OG. 

So, I am very interested to see this plotline unfold.

 

 

How strong exactly are you putting this anti-slavery stance? They don’t seem to have any prohibition from taking contracts from slavers and we know slavery is still practiced by a few elites in the free cities-why aren’t they dead? Illaryio isn’t exactly being subtle about it, It seems there reasons for going after some the Valryrian masters comes more from a place of respect towards the slaves  willingness to sacrifice themselves, than a contempt of slavery in general . Using a phrase in Valyrian doesn’t exactly mean much. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the FM probably don't actually respect their philosophy either. The more I think about it, the more it reminds me of some other things. Some known, historical magickal lodges/orders in our own world have such a structure - an outer order with 'beliefs' which are presented to the outside world, but as you advance up the ranks, you reach a threshold where you enter the 'inner' order, with very different beliefs which are NOT presented to the outside world. The same effect is seen with 'the Party' in Orwell's 1984.

I don’t think we have enough of the actual political dynamic of the brotherhood to actually say either way. It could be a pyramid scheme as of where there’s a small percentage of on the leadership who are interested in profit. I mean we’re talking about a cult that’s been around for centuries, there is likely going to be some corruption, disagreements(perhaps actual monetary payment for a service is a relatively new phenomenon in the order).

 

14 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Next question is, what is the FM's secret plan for which Arya is so important? My take is going back towards the FM just being the Braavosi KGB/Mossad/CIA, disguised as a whack-job cult..... but I'd like to see other suggestions, too....

I’d imagine they think she’s going to play a role in the coming role in the coming ice-zombie war. The witch of high heart gives the impression Arya is going to cause a lot of death, and there’s a real taint upon her very soul(she smells more like dead than the guy who was resurrected-that’s unlike to mean nothing).  

[wia]

8 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Nope. He was Lorch's man, though your point still stands.

Ah, I couldn't remember which group he was in. )))

[Sigella]

On 9/29/2018 at 3:44 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh so, she’s allowed to break their core philosophy and break judge her target’s moral character? Please. If she needs to have her ego stroked to get her to perform a service to the many faces god she does not belong-A FM is not supposed to not care

You sure? Arya observes this during a FM-meeting:

Quote

several minutes three spoke heatedly in High Valyrian

Ugly little girl, aDwD

 

On 9/29/2018 at 3:44 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

they(the order) should not be expected put their reputation on the line and secrets, because one of their members can’t get off his or her high-horse and recognize he or she is a part of; which is a cult of murderers, responsible for the deaths of many and thus is the last person to judge anyone about anything in regards to how good a person he or she is.

Not sure I understand what this means, but my take is:  a FM must not ever judge because they are murderers and Arya in judging others disqualifies herself, this iyo jeopardises the FM's secrets and reputation. Well, they are hitmen so them killing folk aren't gonna ruin their reputation, so long as its not clumsily done/failed. No-one outside the FM are gonna know nobody payed for it or not. 

Also we don't know how the business-part works at all, but their prices surely says something of them not accepting all contracts, like someone somewhere does judge "outrageously expensive" from "base rate" affecting whether the hit happens or not. So not true about them absolutely not judging.

 

On 9/29/2018 at 3:44 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She’s effective at finding ways to kill people. That’s only half of what actually matters-she has to absorb the moral tenets.  Bronn can be clever and cool in murderering someone-he would make a terrible FM because he’d unwilling to kill for the order if they do not pay him. There are plenty effective and clever killers in the world in the world, they’d be a terrible fit and even danger for the FM because they’re unwilling to give themselves completely to the order.

Which proves my point = small recruitment base.

 

On 9/29/2018 at 3:44 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And a recruit must be willing to be blind to their target’s individual virtues or faults, it simply isn’t their place(as Assassains), to judge others for their short-comings-they’d be unable to function if they allowed recruits who’d only feel comfortable if they took some self-gratification at killing “bad guys”. And she hasn’t shown she’s truly willing to give up her family-again she kept needle and used the very skills the FM have been teaching her to help her settle an old grudge. She has lines to her past-life she clearly is not letting go and doesn’t seem to ultimately plan to. 

Same answers as those above.

On 9/29/2018 at 3:44 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No. It really, really, doesn’t make sense that the FM would be totally cool with Arya using the very skills their teaching her to murder people, because she morally condemned their actions as making it so they somehow deserve to die more than others. She’s clearly not getting the point of their organization. As the Kindly old man tries to instruct Arya: 

Death holds no sweetness in this house. We are not warriors, nor soldiers, nor swaggering bravos puffed up with pride. We do not kill to serve some lord, to fatten our purses, to stroke our vanity. We never give the gift to please ourselves. Nor do we choose the ones we kill. We are but servants of the God of Many Faces.

 

Her killing Ralf and Daeron shows the kindly old man’s words aren’t getting through to her-she kills to satisfy herself instead of the many-faced god. That is something that is something the FM make clear is unacceptable.

Remember they haven't kicked her out. You make it sound like they have

The quote is from a lesson, and I am in no way disputing that this is a lesson they are really trying to teach her. Its just that, we as readers know her thoughts, the FM don't.

[hiemal]

On 9/19/2018 at 7:14 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

  What is going on with Arya? She seem's to be going down a very evil path. Has Jaqen created a monster, or just found a good one to use? 

 

This is such a deep subject and can obviously delve much deeper into her time at the House of Black and White, but i wanted to start simple with her time with Jaqen and the basic contradictions that begin a girls dark path.

Let me know what you think, what else you think is important to this all or anything else.

A girl is becoming the Stranger- someone neither fully male nor female. I believe that at least one pivotal kill in Arya's story arc, probably the culmination, will be conducted while wearing a man's face.

Complicated tinfoil, lots of moving parts, but in short: The Faceless Men are an integrated part of the City of Braavos, the City of the Moonsingers. They are the New "Faceless" Moon which is why Arya serves at the Temple at the time of the month. The Moonsingers of the Jhogos Nhai, coincidentally have a custom of allowing men to join the priesthood only if they dress and live as women according to TWoIaF and women may likewise adopt the role a man, I feel like it is tied together with the founding of the Faceless Men and the later founding of Braavos. Who was the first Faceless Man? Was it indeed a Man?

A girl does indeed walk a dark, Stark path. If she is a Persephone, who or what will emerge from the earth when the Dream of Spring finally blooms?

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Sigella said:

You sure? Arya observes this during a FM-meeting:

In regards to a target’s faults and virtues, absolutely. The kindly old man goes over time and again they(the order), are not meant to judge the goodness or badness of the people they murder for the cult.

I did not mean they could never ever have any sort of emotion whatsoever. They’d pressumble have to care deeply about pleasing the many-faced god

6 hours ago, Sigella said:

Not sure I understand what this means, but my take is:  a FM must not ever judge because they are murderers and Arya in judging others disqualifies herself, this iyo jeopardises the FM's secrets and reputation. Well, they are hitmen so them killing folk aren't gonna ruin their reputation, so long as its not clumsily done/failed. No-one outside the FM are gonna know nobody payed for it or not. 

They are not supposed to judge who deserves to die because they are “good” or “evil” mainly because of their philosophy being we all really do deserve it; Rickon Stark isn’t less befitting this gift than the mountain. Judging the moral aptitude target can lead to failure because Arya doesn’t want target x to get hurt and decided to warn target x. Judgeing the moral aptitude of another’s mission or part in a mission can lead to her to attempt sabotage, or desertion(along with the orders’ secrets). If a can’t help judge others for their moral-character they’ve no business being in a murder-cult. 

6 hours ago, Sigella said:

Also we don't know how the business-part works at all, but their prices surely says something of them not accepting all contracts, like someone somewhere does judge "outrageously expensive" from "base rate" affecting whether the hit happens or not. So not true about them absolutely not judging.

They do not judge their moral character. They do not decide to assasainate x individual by virtue of them being a bad man; they do it because someone made offering or sacrifice  that was appropriate enough to get them to move. 

 

6 hours ago, Sigella said:

Which proves my point = small recruitment base.

Didn’t disagree; just pointed out Arya isn’t someone they should recruit given her(like the clever killer) lacking any respect towards their ideology.   

7 hours ago, Sigella said:

Remember they haven't kicked her out. You make it sound like they have 

Not really. They haven’t kicked her out-never implies they did-my point was it’s unlikely that they’re keeping her around because they  she’d be a great fit for the cult of killers.

[Sigella]

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In regards to a target’s faults and virtues, absolutely. The kindly old man goes over time and again they(the order), are not meant to judge the goodness or badness of the people they murder for the cult.

I did not mean they could never ever have any sort of emotion whatsoever. They’d pressumble have to care deeply about pleasing the many-faced god

They are not supposed to judge who deserves to die because they are “good” or “evil” mainly because of their philosophy being we all really do deserve it; Rickon Stark isn’t less befitting this gift than the mountain. Judging the moral aptitude target can lead to failure because Arya doesn’t want target x to get hurt and decided to warn target x. Judgeing the moral aptitude of another’s mission or part in a mission can lead to her to attempt sabotage, or desertion(along with the orders’ secrets). If a can’t help judge others for their moral-character they’ve no business being in a murder-cult. 

They do not judge their moral character. They do not decide to assasainate x individual by virtue of them being a bad man; they do it because someone made offering or sacrifice  that was appropriate enough to get them to move. 

 

Didn’t disagree; just pointed out Arya isn’t someone they should recruit given her(like the clever killer) lacking any respect towards their ideology.   

Not really. They haven’t kicked her out-never implies they did-my point was it’s unlikely that they’re keeping her around because they  she’d be a great fit for the cult of killers.

You said they couldn't care, I responded to that.

Agreed what they are teaching her, but disagree that they cannot judge since they do judge some sacrifes sufficient while others aren't.

[Nevets]

8 minutes ago, Sigella said:

You said they couldn't care, I responded to that.

Agreed what they are teaching her, but disagree that they cannot judge since they do judge some sacrifes sufficient while others aren't.

To be honest, we have little to no information on how the FM determines the proper sacrifice.  It is quite possible that, in specific cases, they could set the sacrifice artificially high (or low) in order to discourage (encourage, in some cases) its acceptance.   We simply don't know.

What is crystal clear, as that, at the level of those carrying them out, questions are strongly discouraged, and they are not to judge the target's morality or anything else about them.  This is likely to prove problematic for Arya going forward.  Assuming that she gets that far, which I have my doubtson. 

[kissdbyfire]

23 hours ago, Tucu said:

I would not be so sure about their link to Dany. They are anti-slavery but they know of danger of the dragonlords. As Tycho puts it:

The FM training a warg to assassinate a dragonlord sound likely.

But Dany is nothing like your average dragonlord, is she?

And there's this:

AFfC, Arya II

“Some did,” he said. “Revolts were common in the mines, but few accomplished much. The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did.”
“Who was he?” Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.
“No one,” he answered. “Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows.”

And what if the very first FM was not only a freeholder's son, but a Targaryen? Would tie in nicely w/ Dany's storyline. 

 

[Sea Dragon]

On September 19, 2018 at 7:14 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

So this is a look at Arya and the basic set up of her journey and the contradictions in it.

So he heard another man pray for the death of another, agreed to grant it, but the payment/sacrifice was to become a faceless man also.

So a girl prays, and a man hears.

 

 

This is after Arya has met and free'd Jaqen.

 

Arya meet's Jaqen

 

And free's Jaqen, but announces who she is to any one listening.

 

And people indeed heard her.

 

but this is where things get weird.

 

But Jaqen gave her that power

Why is she allowed to judge men now?

 

 

and Jaqen seems to not follow other rules to well either

Jaqen knows the people Arya wants killed. He's serving with them all and should know their names. Further, Arya is playing god at Jaqen's command, and killing people she knows.  Now granted, these men do not know who Arya and Jaqen really are, but the men Arya and Jaqen are killing are not under secret identities. So does this have more to do with how the glamours work?

 

And what is the punishment if any for this infraction

 

Yet he turn's around and Arya pulls this move

 

and how many are the hungry gods fed? And would Jaqen have really killed himself? or was he going to kill Arya?

3, 4, and 8. Arya has him murder 15 people. What does this mean? So saving people is bad, and playing judge is bad, yet Jaqen lets Arya kill 15 people in the process of saving idk how many. So maybe the numbers balanced out in the end?

 

 

 

So Arya is definitely in contradiction of the Starks ways (Eddard, Robb, and Jon hold true to this), yet some how earns the right (after being heard praying for men to die?) to become a faceless man. What does this mean for Arya, whom Jaqen calls evil and the Ghost of High Heart calls..

 

 

 

  What is going on with Arya? She seem's to be going down a very evil path. Has Jaqen created a monster, or just found a good one to use? 

 

This is such a deep subject and can obviously delve much deeper into her time at the House of Black and White, but i wanted to start simple with her time with Jaqen and the basic contradictions that begin a girls dark path.

Let me know what you think, what else you think is important to this all or anything else.

Arya has always been very boring to me so her taking some other path could only make her more exciting. 

I do believe she will marry in to the Jon and Daenerys marriage like Visenya married in her little sister Rhaenys to Aegon the conquerer. That should be fun as well. 

[Sigella]

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

To be honest, we have little to no information on how the FM determines the proper sacrifice.  It is quite possible that, in specific cases, they could set the sacrifice artificially high (or low) in order to discourage (encourage, in some cases) its acceptance.   We simply don't know.

What is crystal clear, as that, at the level of those carrying them out, questions are strongly discouraged, and they are not to judge the target's morality or anything else about them.  This is likely to prove problematic for Arya going forward.  Assuming that she gets that far, which I have my doubtson. 

I totally agree.

[elipride]

21 hours ago, hiemal said:

A girl is becoming the Stranger- someone neither fully male nor female. I believe that at least one pivotal kill in Arya's story arc, probably the culmination, will be conducted while wearing a man's face.

What's your argument for this? People stopped confusing her with a boy by the end of ASOS, and Arya was pretty offended every time people confused her with a boy. And she makes it clear she prefers the Old Gods when she's hiding Needle, so why would would her arc be tied to the Stranger from the seven.

[Tucu]

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But Dany is nothing like your average dragonlord, is she?

And there's this:

AFfC, Arya II

“Some did,” he said. “Revolts were common in the mines, but few accomplished much. The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did.”
“Who was he?” Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.
“No one,” he answered. “Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows.”

And what if the very first FM was not only a freeholder's son, but a Targaryen? Would tie in nicely w/ Dany's storyline. 

 

Dany disrupted the slave trade, but then she allowed it to be reopened. Braavos is probably taking those two facts into account. They also need to look at the longer term; can her descendants be trusted or is it better to remove the dragonlord threat now?

[elipride]

On 9/27/2018 at 6:13 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If I had to place Arya in terms of morals I’d say she’s a caloric neutral(as of right now). She does good on occasion still but also some bad.

She has extreme sense of justice though. All of her kills that weren't self defence were because she considered that person to be guilty of some crime, like Dareon deserting or the insurance man cheating people. Her reasoning is very questionable but the thing is that SHE believes that these are bad people that deserve punishment, which isn't neutrality. 

 

On 9/27/2018 at 6:13 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Her murder of the insurance sellsman seemed to me to reek of egotism-she wants(because if she doesn’t kill him the FM would discontinue her teaching) desperately for  this guy to be guilty of some bad deed so much she immediately interprets the words of the old man to mean the insurance salesmen to have cheated widows and orphans when it could have very well meant the opposite-and even if was she never ponders the insurance sellsmen should die, while the FM do not deserve to face her version of “justice”it’s unlikely there aren’t many FM who’ve murdered widows and orphans and other innocents.

Yeah it's so egotistical for a little girl who has been beaten, enslaved (in Harrenhall) and has no family left to want to hold on to the little bit of stability she has now. She might want to learn things that would make her feel stronger but she thinks more than once that she has nowhere else to go, and the FM know that too. Like I said before, Arya has a rather extreme sense of justice, she couldn't bring herself to kill the insurance man without having a reason to, and these guy know how to read people, do you seriously think that the kindly man's choice of words when talking about the insurance salesman was accidental and that he didn't know the effect they would have? If anything, I always thought it was weird that they tell her she shouldn't need a reason for her killings, but then he gives her a reason. To me it sounds like they manipulate her to stay, although no idea why.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, elipride said:

Yeah it's so egotistical for a little girl who has been beaten, enslaved (in Harrenhall) and has no family left to want to hold on to the little bit of stability she has now. She might want to learn things that would make her feel stronger but she thinks more than once that she has nowhere else to go, and the FM know that too

The FM have offered her time and again a chance to have a relatively pampered life, to arrange for to be adopted as in a new noble family if she were just say the word-she would rather stay for time being rather learn to kill more effectivel and looks ready to leave to settle old vendettas(hence her murder of Raif and refusing to actually get rid of needle) when she no longer has any use for the brotherhood.  She is still a victim to a degree, but as of now the bad stuff isn’t being forced upon her. 

1 hour ago, elipride said:

Like I said before, Arya has a rather extreme sense of justice, she couldn't bring herself to kill the insurance man without having a reason to, and these guy know how to read people, do you seriously think that the kindly man's choice of words when talking about the insurance salesman was accidental and that he didn't know the effect they would have?

A warped sense of justice at this point sadly-there’s no reason why the murderers of FM deserve reprieve from her rage than the insurance sellsman-one has killed likely plenty of innocents over the centuries, the other at worst Arya could actually tell cheated some innocents out of their money. I do not pretend his words were not likey meant to see if it elicited a certain reaction; but Arya latched on to one interpretation of the kindly man’s words, that makes herself the “hero”,  she never really considers any alternative(namely that the man is fair and his dealings when he doesn’t to be) much less bother to try to check before murdering him-the interpretation of the kindly old man’s words (to which I’ll freely say was probably one he wanted Arya to have), made her feel better about murderering a stranger to prove her mettle to the FM.

 

[elipride]

57 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The FM have offered her time and again a chance to have a relatively pampered life, to arrange for to be adopted as in a new noble family if she were just say the word

The things thing they offer her at first is to basically be a courtesan or to be married off to someone, it makes sense that she's put off by it, and other times they offer her to leave they do so by implying she's too weak to stay with them. Like I said before, I doubt their choice of words is random, we know Arya is stubborn as hell and always wants to prove that she's strong and they probably know it too, that's why I think they manipulate her to stay. Besides, even if she does want to learn some of the things they teach and she isn't being actually forced, Arya herself thinks that she has nowhere else to go. If learning how to kill is the only thing she cares about, why does she consider asking Dareon to take her away from there?

 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

A warped sense of justice at this point sadly-there’s no reason why the murderers of FM deserve reprieve from her rage than the insurance sellsman-one has killed likely plenty of innocents over the centuries, the other at worst Arya could actually tell cheated some innocents out of their money. I do not pretend his words were not likey meant to see if it elicited a certain reaction; but Arya latched on to one interpretation of the kindly man’s words, that makes herself the “hero”,  she never really considers any alternative(namely that the man is fair and his dealings when he doesn’t to be) much less bother to try to check before murdering him-the interpretation of the kindly old man’s words (to which I’ll freely say was probably one he wanted Arya to have), made her feel better about murderering a stranger to prove her mettle to the FM.

When did Arya ever think of herself as a hero? I think you're underestimating the fact that she has nobody she can rely on and that this is the first place in a long time where she had some sense safety, it's true that she believed the interpretation that made the killing easy for her and that's a very questionable choice, but it also makes sense that she wants to rationalize staying there. And there's the question of why did the kindly man tell her about the insurance guy cheating people? They are supposed to kill their targets without judgement and Arya couldn't go though with it. Why not just kick her out if she can commit to them? Why did he tell her something that he knew would relate to her sense of justice and push her to do it when it went against their ideology?

[hiemal]

12 hours ago, elipride said:

What's your argument for this? People stopped confusing her with a boy by the end of ASOS, and Arya was pretty offended every time people confused her with a boy. And she makes it clear she prefers the Old Gods when she's hiding Needle, so why would would her arc be tied to the Stranger from the seven.

Hmmm, some tinfoil to unpack but...

I, personally, believe that the Seven are distortions of pre-history, misremembered legends of the Great Empire of the Dawn and that the cycle of prophecy is rolling around once again to a chance for fulfillment (the original Stranger being an amalgam of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor).  So technically, I suppose, she would be a Stranger-Hades/Persephone analog rather than the Stranger itsownself. I don't see her as being more than sentimentally attached to the Old Gods- her relationship with skinchanging is presented differently enough from both Bran and Jon in a way that makes it seem less central to her story arc even when she makes use of those abilities. Her wolf dreams are presented simply as dreams and she glosses over using cat's eyes to see while blind.

I also don't think that Arya wants to BE a boy, just that she will become one for some particular task. The transformative power of the masks is never really mapped out, but I wonder to what extant they alter things beyond the face? The Kindly Man at one point wears a death's head mask which begs the question of how you make a Faceless Man face that has no Face so I'm optimistic about this one. Beyond the Moonsinger/Braavos stuff mentioned in my 1st post I think it's mostly just hunches and spitballs about what I think the narrative structure is building to and how it relates to the history and myth and GRRM's habits of interweaving both to form something newish.

The gender-swapping was kind of a spur-of-the-moment spitball building on other ideas, in other words. In retrospect it was probably too fresh to post without my usual "spitball" caveat but I do have a reputation for crazy to uphold.

One piece I do remember:

Quote

"Stay, and the Many-Faced God will take your ears, your nose, your tongue. He will take your sad grey eyes that have seen so much. He will take your hands, your feet, your arms and legs, your private parts. He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter His service must give up all that makes them who they are."... ADwD

 

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

Dany disrupted the slave trade, but then she allowed it to be reopened. Braavos is probably taking those two facts into account. They also need to look at the longer term; can her descendants be trusted or is it better to remove the dragonlord threat now?

They do. But wouldn't the longer term be to ally w/ someone who is very powerful and is against slavery? I mean, the old enmities haven't helped anyone, and haven't achieved fuck all. Perhaps it's time for a new approach.