Ned's Leg

[Legitimate_Bastard]

 

15 hours ago, Trefayne said:

 

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

That's great! 

The Lanns could quite easily have escorted Ned to the wall. Besides, to me Ned was the kind of guy who would not break his oath to join the NW. I feel that having Sansa would have been enough to keep Ned in line. It was enough to make him confess!

Imagine Tywin had been there at the time Ned was executed. Would he have let Joff have Ned killed? I just don't think so. In my opinion Tywin would have foreseen Robb rising up and would not have gone through with it. Ned at the wall was a way better option than going to war against Robb.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

 

That's great! 

The Lanns could quite easily have escorted Ned to the wall. Besides, to me Ned was the kind of guy who would not break his oath to join the NW. I feel that having Sansa would have been enough to keep Ned in line. It was enough to make him confess!

Imagine Tywin had been there at the time Ned was executed. Would he have let Joff have Ned killed? I just don't think so. In my opinion Tywin would have foreseen Robb rising up and would not have gone through with it. Ned at the wall was a way better option than going to war against Robb.

 

Oh, sorry! I actually thought you were trying to be funny given the reaction of Robb and Co. to trading Sansa and Arya for Jamie. Not an equal trade in any way by their estimation.

Sure, the Lannisters could have assigned a couple of thousand (or more) troops to escort the (former) Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North through his home territory (they literally had to go right past Winterfell) and hoped the North would behave or had a clandestine, nighttime sailing in secret to the Wall, but why? Ned is much more valuable to them as a hostage to keep Winterfell and the North in line. Sansa is just extra insurance.

The Lannisters (at the beginning of our tale) only tend to see the world as they would do things, i.e. ruthlessly (with Tyrion the notable exception). They know that Ned Stark is a "honorable" man, but they also can't help but think about what they would do in that situation and then assume that others would do the same. So to them Ned, relatively free at the Wall and in the company of family and friends (Benjen, Jon and other northmen), would be free to conspire against them (possibly becoming LC) and prod his son Robb to oppose them and possibly bring Ned back to power. Tywin and Jamie (and possibly Tyrion too) most likely would assume Ned would be willing to sacrifice Sansa in this conflict (because they themselves probably would) since she is female and not the direct heir, but Cersei would probably be teeter-tottering around the issue since she'd be conflicted about her own feelings on what she would do to get her daughter back and her desire to be strong and callous to emulate her general opinion of men.

No, keeping Ned alive but hostage was the best play. If you charge him with treason and lock him up, but you don't strip him of title and lands, you now have the supreme authority in the North at your disposal and you don't have to treat with his heir as an equal since his lord is still alive and technically still in charge of his fiefdom. Sansa is there for the Crown to parade in front of Ned and threaten him and Ned is there to keep Robb in line. Robb would then be forced to concede the conflict and come to heel (at least as long as Ned is alive) or he would have to renounce his father and seize the title (or his own kingship) and revolt just like he did in the story. Only in this scenario Ned could be coerced into ordering Robb to stand down.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 9/19/2018 at 6:40 AM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

So my question is, had Joffrey not pulled the ultimate prick move and had Illyn Payne behead Ned, and had he instead allowed him to take the black and go to the wall, would Ned have even survived. 

No, his death was necessary to move the plot in the direction GRRM wanted it to go.  There was no hope for ned 

[sweetsunray]

On 9/19/2018 at 3:40 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

So my question is, had Joffrey not pulled the ultimate prick move and had Illyn Payne behead Ned, and had he instead allowed him to take the black and go to the wall, would Ned have even survived. 

The man is in the throes of fever dreams and he has been sitting in his own excrement, I can only imagine how bad the infection must be at that stage and how far it has spread up his leg toward his torso. Add the journey to the wall, by sea or land it is a LONG journey. Plus, would the Lannisters have even treated his wound or just hoped he would die from the infection on the way up?

What are your thoughts folks?

It is made pretty clear that Ned's leg has turned septic, both in the chapter in his black cell, and in Arya's chapter mentioning the state of his cast. Ned's dehidrated, feverish, and delirious, his leg smells and is hot above the knee. No wonder, since his injury was an open leg break where bugs can get right into the bone marrow if they want to, and he's sitting in a cell in his own waste for weeks.

It's suggested that Varys himself is likely aware of it, and even his reason to visit Ned was to check out what state he was in after Sansa's public plea. Some people go stark raving mad in those cells, others are broken, or get sick. So, Varys checks on Ned, talks with him, and while Ned's nose may not smell urine anymore, I'm pretty sure Varys can smell the stench from his leg as soon as he gets near. He uses a candle to look Ned in the face and thus check on his eye and skin color for health state signs. It's pretty clear to a man who manned and inquired and visited the cells since Mad Aerys' time that Ned Stark is at death's door. Hence, why he wanted Ned on the road. If Ned Stark died in King's Landing while in the hands of the Lannisters it would just make matters worse. If Ned Stark dies on the road to the Wall because of an infection to a leg wound he got prior to the coup then it's nobody's fault. So, Varys convinced Cersei to agree with it, without necessarily informing her that Ned was sure to die within days. LF and his friend of the GC convinced Joffrey to kill Ned, not knowing he was a dead man walking anyway.

And in aCoK, when Arya travels with Yoren, we have a Ned Stark stand-in: one of the men has an infection and dies of sepsis within a few days after leaving King's Landing. So, Ned's fate if he didn't have his head chopped off is described through a side character, whose sole reason of existence in the books is to die of sepsis. 

 

[sweetsunray]

On 11/13/2018 at 7:14 PM, White Ravens said:

It's possible that Ned might die from his broken leg,  If he received a compound fracture (meaning that the bone broke the skin) his hopes of healing the leg would be pretty slim in an era with no antibiotics.  I can't lay my hands on my copy of aGoT right now so I can't check the description of the wound.  If Ned's fracture is not compound then his chances of recovery would be greatly improved because there wouldn't be a point of entry for nasty bacteria to penetrate the wound and spread throughout his system.  Pycell tended to his wound and would have set the bone properly, so his chances of recovery were probably pretty good no matter how filthy the conditions were in the prison cell.  I suspect that Ned's leg would have healed.  You have suggested that he might die of the wound, but there is also the possibility of the leg being amputated. 

It's a compound fracture of his shin. The leg is hot and throbbing above the knee already when he's in the dark cell. So, the infection already spread well beyond the actual wound and fracture. He is also delirious, seeing and hearing ghosts, along with fever symptoms (such as dehydration).

Yes, Pycelle was able to tend to this and set the bone, but Ned still needs care for it by the time he ends up in the cell (wound not yet healed, and thus still a weakness for point of entry), and the cast is described as soaked and rotting away.

Ned smells nothing in the cell, not even the urine and faeces in the straw anymore. In other words, Ned not smelling his own shit anymore, doesn't mean his leg doesn't smell anymore.

If you're delirous and infected already that much that far from the actual compound fracture the sepsis is already happening. Amputation wouldn't save him from sepsis anymore.

[White Ravens]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's a compound fracture of his shin. The leg is hot and throbbing above the knee already when he's in the dark cell. So, the infection already spread well beyond the actual wound and fracture. He is also delirious, seeing and hearing ghosts, along with fever symptoms (such as dehydration).

Yes, Pycelle was able to tend to this and set the bone, but Ned still needs care for it by the time he ends up in the cell (wound not yet healed, and thus still a weakness for point of entry), and the cast is described as soaked and rotting away.

Ned smells nothing in the cell, not even the urine and faeces in the straw anymore. In other words, Ned not smelling his own shit anymore, doesn't mean his leg doesn't smell anymore.

If you're delirous and infected already that much that far from the actual compound fracture the sepsis is already happening. Amputation wouldn't save him from sepsis anymore.

As I said in my post above, ten days ago, I couldn't find the description of the wound at that time.  Given that it was a compound facture of the shin I agree with your assessment 100%.  He was gonna die of that wound but Joffrey sped things along on the steps of the Great Sept of Baelor.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

5 hours ago, White Ravens said:

As I said in my post above I couldn't find the description of the wound.

 

AGOT: Eddard IX

Quote

He saw them cut the legs from Jory's mount and drag him to the earth, swords rising and failing as they closed in around him. When Ned's horse lurched back to its feet, he tried to rise, only to fall again, choking on his scream. He could see the splintered bone poking through his calf. It was the last thing he saw for a time. The rain came down and down and down.

 

[White Ravens]

26 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

AGOT: Eddard IX

 

Okay thanks. 

 

 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 11/24/2018 at 4:17 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

No, his death was necessary to move the plot in the direction GRRM wanted it to go.  There was no hope for ned 

For sure. Arya and her dark murderous path are a direct result of her semi-witnessing the execution of her Da.

I think it might actually be the last time she prays to something other than her death list.

Quote

He looked straight at Sansa then, and smiled, and for a moment Arya thought that the gods had heard her prayer, until Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, "But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!"

AGOT Arya V

After that this is the next instance of Arya praying I found.

Quote

Every night Arya would say their names. "Ser Gregor," she'd whisper to her stone pillow. "Dunsen, Polliver, Chiswyck, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Amory, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." Back in Winterfell, Arya had prayed with her mother in the sept and with her father in the godswood, but there were no gods on the road to Harrenhal, and her names were the only prayer she cared to remember.

ACOK Arya VI

Off topic, but interesting. I had never noticed this before. Seems like Neds death is also the death of Arya, and her rebirth sort of. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

23 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Seems like Neds death is also the death of Arya, and her rebirth sort of. 

 

Ned's death is the rebirth of the seven kingdoms and indeed the entire story.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

For sure. Arya and her dark murderous path are a direct result of her semi-witnessing the execution of her Da.

I think it might actually be the last time she prays to something other than her death list. 

After that this is the next instance of Arya praying I found.

Off topic, but interesting. I had never noticed this before. Seems like Neds death is also the death of Arya, and her rebirth sort of. 

Actually she prays at the hearttree of Harrenhal, and gets angry with the old gods, for which the FM chastices her. In the last chapter of aCoK, she tries again and hears her father's voice who reminds her she's a wolf. That's when she chooses to escape HH.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually she prays at the hearttree of Harrenhal, and gets angry with the old gods, for which the FM chastices her. In the last chapter of aCoK, she tries again and hears her father's voice who reminds her she's a wolf. That's when she chooses to escape HH.

Nice catch, I missed it.