Foot_Of_The_King Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 I honestly think if GRRM knew the full scope of what the series would eventually become, he would’ve altered or omitted the Mountain clans. It’s not that I don’t enjoy their contributions to the story. It’s just that it seems very “out of place” that in the middle of Westeros, there is a small nation of people who do not fallunder any sort of subjugation of the Crown or any great/lesser lord (and as far as I know never have). When you compare them with the “free folk” we meet later in the series, it just seems odder to me that the Clans were included at all. Like I said, I chalk it up to it being the first book. Sorry I couldn’t articulate this as well as I would have liked, but does anyone else understand what I’m trying to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 The idea of facts and history lost to time is a oft-used thing in this series. We have fake histories, dubious legends, singers change facts in their songs for dramatic effect, the victor tells his side while the vanquished has their stories disappear. The Starks have forgotten something. So have the Targs as they can’t seem to bring about dragons anymore. The Others, giants, etc were myths until they weren’t. The Royces have bronze armor covered in runes which are supposed to protect but it just doesn’t work which seems to indicate that they don’t have the runes right anymore. The NW has forgotten its original purpose. Old ways are forgotten but not as forgotten as they appear. The mountain clans are the most unchanged peoples south of the Wall. So I’m guessing their role in the series will be that they somehow know something or at least have access to information which others in Westeros have forgotten. They’re much closer to the Isle of Faces than the North-of-the-Wall wildlings, so maybe this will be part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Ice Spider Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 It does seem weird that the Vale and Riverlands lands could never wipe them out. Guerrilla tactics are highly effective, but you can't keep a guerrilla war going forever (especially not with medieval technology). I would estimate (and it's just a guess, I'm no military historian) that it would take 100-200 years at most to wipe out or subjugate the mountain clans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 I don't find it weird at all. Even in our modern world, practically each country has some tribal societies in the fringes which still follow old customs. Integrating them using both, violent or pacific means is still difficult. So, what is weird is that we do not seem to find more people like that in huge Westeros. It is very very weird that such a huge continent is so culturally homogeneous. There are however some similar examples. In the North, we have both the crannogmen and the Skagosi. In both cases the rule of Winterfell is only nominal as barely anyone dare to go there and they have probably a different social structure. There should be similar tribes in the Wolfwood. It is also weird that some more violent-prone people would abandon the Gift to bands of few underarmed wildings. That the Kingwood had bands of outlaws indicate also that the people who live there are also more likely to go their own way. We should be able to find similar cultures in the Rainwood, in the Dornish Marches, in the Dorne sands, in the Western mountains and other relatively isolated places. Of course, the Mountains of the Moon are an ideal place for these tribes to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said: I honestly think if GRRM knew the full scope of what the series would eventually become, he would’ve altered or omitted the Mountain clans. It’s not that I don’t enjoy their contributions to the story. It’s just that it seems very “out of place” that in the middle of Westeros, there is a small nation of people who do not fallunder any sort of subjugation of the Crown or any great/lesser lord (and as far as I know never have). When you compare them with the “free folk” we meet later in the series, it just seems odder to me that the Clans were included at all. Like I said, I chalk it up to it being the first book. Sorry I couldn’t articulate this as well as I would have liked, but does anyone else understand what I’m trying to say? No. If you pay close attention to the story, you will find that the Kingdom was called "Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale". It's a double kingdom of the vale and the mountain. And it is established as early as the first book. "I might have expected that," Catelyn said. Small wonder there; Lysa was still young, and the kingdom of Mountain and Vale made a handsome wedding gift. "Will Lysa take another husband?" A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI In comparison to that, the Lord Protector is called "Lord Protector of the Vale". Now I do not know if this is a mistake in the books, however I think we can somehow conclude that the mountain clans belong to the kingdom of the mountain. My best bet is that the name was kept after Aegon's conquest, but the Lord is actually only from the Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 The Mountains of the Moon are very rough terrain - not only easy to hide in for the clans, but also not very valuable land for the settled lords of the Vale. The clans are a nuisance, but not enough of one to take the necessary measures to clear them out. Now, if there was a rumour of gold mines in those mountains, I guess the clans would be cleared out rather sharpish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walda Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 9 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said: It’s just that it seems very “out of place” that in the middle of Westeros, there is a small nation of people who do not fallunder any sort of subjugation of the Crown or any great/lesser lord Yes, not only no subjugation, but actively hostile against all those ancient houses with more knights than money. In a feudal system, where land is money. Also, they don't do any cropping and seem to live on goat. There is also a bit of first book weirdness when Eddard and the girls first stay in the Inn at the Crossroads. Septa Mordane informs them at breakfast that their father had been summoned to the hunt with the king, adding: Quote "There are still wild aurochs in these lands, I am told.” (AGoT, Ch.15 Sansa I) Really? On the Trident? Where the battle of Ruby Ford was fought? Two week's ride from King's Landing, in prime cropping land on the Riverlands? Or is Septa Mordane a complete idiot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said: It does seem weird that the Vale and Riverlands lands could never wipe them out. Guerrilla tactics are highly effective, but you can't keep a guerrilla war going forever (especially not with medieval technology). I would estimate (and it's just a guess, I'm no military historian) that it would take 100-200 years at most to wipe out or subjugate the mountain clans. It's funny, I always read the mountain clans kinda like the hicks in Appalachia. Sure, we could send the 101st airborn and a few marine batallions to west virginia and clear deliverance up, but why bother? They don't pose a threat outside of their own land which isn't particularly valuable anyway. I think if there was a gold mine near where those clans live the Knights of the Vale would have finished them off years ago. At this point they are cowed into submission and living on land otherwise uninhabitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 I'll venture an opinion here. The 1st Men are definitely a big deal. I understood the Mountain Clans to be relics or throw back to them. We have the Thenns claiming to be closest (read: unchanged, uncorrupted) to the real 1st Men--they are a people apart among the Wildlings. The Mountain Clans of the Vale seem more like Wildlings to me with perhaps less propensity to travel? Their location likely allows them more access to regular folks from Westeros to integrate (steal) into their cultures. Then there is that odd bunch among them who claim to have (paraphrase) worshipped a witch and her dragon. In the north we have phrases like "kissed by fire" or "know nothing" whereas the only repeat phrases from the Mountain Clans I recall are Name, son or daughter of Name and the threat of cutting off manhood and feeding it to goats. Not aurochs, not fire, but goats. I look to these odd folks of the Mountains for clues to the Wildlings and true 1st Men, but that doesn't mean it's the right track by any stretch. So no, I don't find them as odd as I do simply mysterious and conveniently placed to upset the political machine in the Vale. I wouldn't mind seeing Little Finger being fed to goats even a little bit. Truth be told, I wouldn't mind seeing Sansa and Miranda being spirited off and integrated either. Sorry, it's past time for a new book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 6 hours ago, rotting sea cow said: There are however some similar examples. In the North, we have both the crannogmen and the Skagosi. In both cases the rule of Winterfell is only nominal as barely anyone dare to go there and they have probably a different social structure. There should be similar tribes in the Wolfwood. It is also weird that some more violent-prone people would abandon the Gift to bands of few underarmed wildings. That the Kingwood had bands of outlaws indicate also that the people who live there are also more likely to go their own way. We should be able to find similar cultures in the Rainwood, in the Dornish Marches, in the Dorne sands, in the Western mountains and other relatively isolated places. Of course, the Mountains of the Moon are an ideal place for these tribes to survive. Also, the Northern Mountain Clans. The Iron Islands, the Sisters and Cracklaw Point are arguably similar pockets of primitivism if you want to stretch it a bit. 2 hours ago, YOVMO said: It's funny, I always read the mountain clans kinda like the hicks in Appalachia. Sure, we could send the 101st airborn and a few marine batallions to west virginia and clear deliverance up, but why bother? They don't pose a threat outside of their own land which isn't particularly valuable anyway. That made me chuckle. In all seriousness, throughout history there have been plenty of places that have been nominally "ruled" but largely left to their own devices, particularly in mountainous areas. 2 hours ago, Walda said: Quote "There are still wild aurochs in these lands, I am told.” (AGoT, Ch.15 Sansa I) Really? On the Trident? Where the battle of Ruby Ford was fought? Two week's ride from King's Landing, in prime cropping land on the Riverlands? Or is Septa Mordane a complete idiot? It's not utterly implausible, the Riverlands seems to have its wild bits, and lords might purposely not wipe out aurochs because they enjoy hunting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 I think @Curled Finger has hit the nail on the head, as is often the case with his/her insights. This is a preserved pocket of First Men and they are needed for reintroduction of some quality of culture or warfare or religion that will come into play later in the books. A couple of details are just beginning to come together in my head that might offer clues about the function of the mountain clans. One is a recent (brief) exchange about the death of Vargo Hoat, and how it might fit into a larger pattern of violent cannibalism among enemies or, more accurately, "frienemies." Vargo Hoat was supposedly an ally of Tywin Lannister until his men cut off Jaime's arm; Craster was a friend to the Night's Watch until some Night's Watch traitors killed him and Mormont, Manderly is supposedly pledging fealty and negotiating a betrothal with Roose and his Frey allies, etc. So the repeated refrain about feeding someone's manhood to the goats is part of this pattern, I think. It's almost a parody of the violence and might be a way that GRRM shows us that this urge to feast on human flesh goes back to the earliest, least "civilized" foundations of society yet it persists into the Frey pies at a lavish wedding feast for highborn lords and ladies. The Mountain Clans are a mirror of highborn Westeros and show that they have not evolved as much as they might think. The other detail that I am examining in a new way is the sharp / shaggy juxtaposition that GRRM has used throughout the books. In a long-ago discussion of the names of the direwolves, this forum noted that a "shaggy dog story" is an exaggerated, long, funny story - a type of folk tale, in a way, that can be repeated and modified through the oral tradition over many generations. Again, I haven't done a systematic analysis of the words with this new line of thinking in mind, but I wonder whether "shaggy" is a clue that a person or thing is "fuzzy" and subject to the whim of the storyteller (or POV); maybe it even signals something that is repeated and passed down over and over again. By contrast, something that is sharp could be something that is in focus. If the contrast with "shaggy" is deliberate, it might mean that something sharp is final and won't be repeated. Qhorin Halfhand checks and double-checks that Jon's sword is sharp and his last word is "Sharp." I wonder whether Qhorin was a kind of Coldhands figure, someone who had lived too long and who longed for a final death. He knew that Jon would finally be able to deliver him to his final rest, but only if his death was sharp. This comes back to the mountain clans because of Shagga. Maybe this character is a sign that the mountain clans are a repository of the "history repeating itself" aspect of Westeros civilization. The things most desired by the mountain clans are sharp weapons and Tyrion delivers. They use these weapons to end the "stories" of the Valyrian invaders. Another parting thought: Timett son of Timett strikes me as a Bloodraven parallel, with his destroyed eye. Instead of being part of the brother vs. brother violence in Bloodraven's arc, however, Timett took out his own eye. Timett also accompanies Tyrion to the alchemists' "cave" in King's Landing but declines to enter the cave. Is this another Coldhands allusion? For that visit to the alchemists, Tyrion wears the shadowcat cloak that came from a member of the mountain clans and passed through the hands of the singer Merillion before coming into Tyrion's possession. In this chapter, the cloak is described as a shadow cloak, no longer a shadowcat cloak. Qhorin said that, "Shadows are friends to men in black." We may understand more about the purpose of the mountain clans by looking at Qhorin, Coldhands and other guide characters such as Stonesnake and the Liddle in the cave encountered by Bran and Meera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Ah @Seams, you are the one with the insight, I'm just throwing out things that spoke to me because they were so well, odd. You saw cannibalism where I was wondering if the goats of the mountain clans are gods of some sort (to the clansmen) and this phase was more promise than threat. Now that I have your wickedly deeper looking influence at work I'm considering these phrases as important identity markers to both cultures. The Mountain Clans of the Vale and North make quite a big deal out of their names. Timmett Son of Timmett as opposed to The Wull. Timmet's self mutilation reminds me exactly of the Thenn's practice of burning their faces and rubbing ash into the wounds. Ow. Who knows? Perhaps the Mountain Clans of the Vale are the direct descendants of the Thenns, the true 1st Men? As always, I will leave the deeper symbolic matters to you and your wonderful way of tying things together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 8 hours ago, rotting sea cow said: I don't find it weird at all. Even in our modern world, practically each country has some tribal societies in the fringes which still follow old customs. Integrating them using both, violent or pacific means is still difficult. So, what is weird is that we do not seem to find more people like that in huge Westeros. It is very very weird that such a huge continent is so culturally homogeneous. There are however some similar examples. In the North, we have both the crannogmen and the Skagosi. In both cases the rule of Winterfell is only nominal as barely anyone dare to go there and they have probably a different social structure. There should be similar tribes in the Wolfwood. It is also weird that some more violent-prone people would abandon the Gift to bands of few underarmed wildings. That the Kingwood had bands of outlaws indicate also that the people who live there are also more likely to go their own way. We should be able to find similar cultures in the Rainwood, in the Dornish Marches, in the Dorne sands, in the Western mountains and other relatively isolated places. Of course, the Mountains of the Moon are an ideal place for these tribes to survive. I don't find it weird either. There is something about mountains. Look at the Taliban in Afghanistan - the Afghans in general at least as far back as the British invasion have successfully held out in the safety of the mountains. That is one historical example, I am sure there are more. The topography and the general absence of anything worth committing the men and resources it would take to conquer are why the Mountains Clans still exist, in my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 44 minutes ago, Seams said: So the repeated refrain about feeding someone's manhood to the goats is part of this pattern, I think. It's almost a parody of the violence and might be a way that GRRM shows us that this urge to feast on human flesh goes back to the earliest, least "civilized" foundations of society yet it persists into the Frey pies at a lavish wedding feast for highborn lords and ladies. The Mountain Clans are a mirror of highborn Westeros and show that they have not evolved as much as they might think. The other detail that I am examining in a new way is the sharp / shaggy juxtaposition that GRRM has used throughout the books. Oooh, you know what popped into my mind, once I reached the 'sharp/shaggy' line... the only time we see Tyrion's clansmen take anyone's 'manhood' it was Pycelle's beard... I think that may have more to it, but I haven't unpacked it yet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted September 22, 2018 Author Share Posted September 22, 2018 18 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said: It does seem weird that the Vale and Riverlands lands could never wipe them out. Guerrilla tactics are highly effective, but you can't keep a guerrilla war going forever (especially not with medieval technology). I would estimate (and it's just a guess, I'm no military historian) that it would take 100-200 years at most to wipe out or subjugate the mountain clans. This is part of what I meant in the OP. I just can’t imagine any great lord that would tolerate a large group of people living in complete autonomy on their lands. That’s not even mentioning that they occasionally raid villages and are notorious for assaulting travelers. I understand it’s difficult to defeat a resistance force using Guerrilla tactics on their own land, but it seems that over the course of time, someone would have eventually put an end to it. Either by assimilation or annihilation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted September 22, 2018 Author Share Posted September 22, 2018 17 hours ago, rotting sea cow said: I don't find it weird at all. Even in our modern world, practically each country has some tribal societies in the fringes which still follow old customs. Integrating them using both, violent or pacific means is still difficult. So, what is weird is that we do not seem to find more people like that in huge Westeros. It is very very weird that such a huge continent is so culturally homogeneous. There are however some similar examples. In the North, we have both the crannogmen and the Skagosi. In both cases the rule of Winterfell is only nominal as barely anyone dare to go there and they have probably a different social structure. There should be similar tribes in the Wolfwood. It is also weird that some more violent-prone people would abandon the Gift to bands of few underarmed wildings. That the Kingwood had bands of outlaws indicate also that the people who live there are also more likely to go their own way. We should be able to find similar cultures in the Rainwood, in the Dornish Marches, in the Dorne sands, in the Western mountains and other relatively isolated places. Of course, the Mountains of the Moon are an ideal place for these tribes to survive. Very good points. You’ve changed my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back door hodor Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 22 hours ago, rotting sea cow said: I don't find it weird at all. Even in our modern world, practically each country has some tribal societies in the fringes which still follow old customs. Integrating them using both, violent or pacific means is still difficult. So, what is weird is that we do not seem to find more people like that in huge Westeros. It is very very weird that such a huge continent is so culturally homogeneous. There are however some similar examples. In the North, we have both the crannogmen and the Skagosi. In both cases the rule of Winterfell is only nominal as barely anyone dare to go there and they have probably a different social structure. There should be similar tribes in the Wolfwood. It is also weird that some more violent-prone people would abandon the Gift to bands of few underarmed wildings. That the Kingwood had bands of outlaws indicate also that the people who live there are also more likely to go their own way. We should be able to find similar cultures in the Rainwood, in the Dornish Marches, in the Dorne sands, in the Western mountains and other relatively isolated places. Of course, the Mountains of the Moon are an ideal place for these tribes to survive. Agreed...and I also think its weirder that we don't see more of these pocket cultures. To add another that we do encounter: the orphans of the greenblood, who live on the river and the planky town and preserve the rhyonish culture and language....they do however seem to accept (at least nominally) the rule of the prince of dorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 I suspect some of the Vale lords don't mind having them around. They can be used to take blame for the death of a rival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Ice Spider Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 On 9/21/2018 at 2:06 PM, YOVMO said: It's funny, I always read the mountain clans kinda like the hicks in Appalachia. Sure, we could send the 101st airborn and a few marine batallions to west virginia and clear deliverance up, but why bother? They don't pose a threat outside of their own land which isn't particularly valuable anyway. I think if there was a gold mine near where those clans live the Knights of the Vale would have finished them off years ago. At this point they are cowed into submission and living on land otherwise uninhabitable. Except they DO pose a threat. Cat & Co. are attacked over and over by mountain clansmen. If there are so many that one would be victim to constant ambushes along the road, that would seriously impact trade, as well as any contribution from the Vale to Westerosi culture. The West Virginia hicks aren't robbing and killing travellers (systematically). And they also haven't been equipped with Kevlar and SMGs at the expense of Tywin Lannister. Also remember the mountain carried off a niece of Jon Arryn. One would expect incredibly bitter reprisals after such an incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 9 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said: Except they DO pose a threat. Cat & Co. are attacked over and over by mountain clansmen. If there are so many that one would be victim to constant ambushes along the road, that would seriously impact trade, as well as any contribution from the Vale to Westerosi culture. The West Virginia hicks aren't robbing and killing travellers (systematically). And they also haven't been equipped with Kevlar and SMGs at the expense of Tywin Lannister. Also remember the mountain carried off a niece of Jon Arryn. One would expect incredibly bitter reprisals after such an incident. Being armed by the lannisters surely changes the game so I will leave that out. It is, I believe, mentioned that the mountain clans had become a lot more dangerous with the death of John Arryn. It has been a while so please correct me if i am wrong but the general presence of the knights of the vale in the normal routine. With Sweet Robin as Lord of the vale and dingbat running day to day operations the mountain clans were getting much more bold...in a way that had been gone from the world for long enough that I imagine people had long forgot about it. As for the west virgina hicks, i've seen deliverance. A couple of other ideas...just spitballin' ya know... They might have been left there as a defensive method. Certainly the mountain clans posed no threat in breaching the bloody gate. Any army that was camped outside the bloody gate might have to contend with that? The other thought is that as first men descendants there might have to do with the founding of house arryn. again, pure conjecture. After the first men being led by King Robar II lost to the Andals being lead by Artys Arryn they were given the option to bend the knee. Many did and King Artys pardoned them. This is seen to this day with powerful vale houses like houses royce and corbray lesser vale houses like house belmore. The first men who did not take the knee were forced into the mountains of the moon. No specifics on this, but at the end of the war it is clear that Artys would have had the option to execute the first men that didn't take the knee rather than banishing them. That house Arryn is such an honor bound family (As High as Honor) it could very well be the case that Artys Arryn banished but did not slaughter the ancestors of the current mountain clansmen as a promise to the ones who did take the knee and the lord of the vale to this day honors that promise...whether to maintain honor or politically because of the prickly nature of first men houses and the nature of ethnic politics in the vale or both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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