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Valyrian activity in the North


AlaskanSandman

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 So I've been looking into Bael for a little while now, and as i dig deeper into it, more and more things seem to pop out of it, but i can't make of it what it all means, or if Im still missing pieces. 

This is an attempt to reconstruct what we know about the Kings beyond the Wall, and the Kings of Winter, dating them, and some of the incidences surrounding them. To illustrate a possibly larger Valyrian involvement in the North beyond Bael, to better question what exactly is going on. 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Even before the coming of the Andals, the Wolf's Den had been raised by King Jon Stark, built to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders and slavers from across the narrow sea (some scholars suggest these were early Andal incursions, whilst others argue they were the forebears of the men of Ib, or even slavers out of Valyria and Volantis).

 

 

So our first clue comes to us from GRRM and I’ve shared it before pondering over it. Pointing out a Valyrian connection to Bael the Bard.

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If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

                                                                                                                                                                - GRRM

https://archive.is/St3S6#selection-3713.1-3717.252

 

 

 

So lets look at Bael’s tale real quick and point out that it’s interesting that the Stark King, is trying and failing for years to catch a mere wildling, not even King Beyond the Wall yet. Yet, the Stark King hates him, and calls him a craven. Sparking Bael to steal his daughter.

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak."

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast."

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

"It never happened," Jon said.

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it." She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep.

 

 

So when was Bael and could he be Valyrian? Well we are given a rough guide to when he lived.

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A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"Wildlings have invaded the realm before." Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. "Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather's grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard."

"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side

 

 

 

So here, Jon and Qorhen give us the chronological order of the Kings beyond the Wall. Note, Jon knows of Bael before being told of him by Ygritte, so he knows of Bael, even if he doesn’t know Ygitte’s version.

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon III

"Aye," said Ygritte. "Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o' free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them."

 

Ygitte, along with Maester Yandel in the quote below, help pin point Gendel and Gorne to 3000 years ago (2700BC) , with the Horned Lord happening one or two thousand years after (1700-700BC). Yandel goes on to tell us that Bael was centuries after the Horned Lord. So likely more than 200 but less than 800 years after in 1500-1000 or 500BC – Aegon’s Conquest 0AD/AC

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.

The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, 

 

 

Mance Rayder                   - 300Ac

 

Raymund Red Beard         - 226 Ac

 

Bael the Bard                     - Some time after Andals but before Targaryens? 1500-1000BC or 500-0Bc/ac?

 

And Long before them.

 

The Horned Lord               - 1700Bc or 700 Bc (only centuries before Bael)

 

Gendle and Gorne           - 2700Bc

 

And In Ancient Days.

 

Joramun                            - Unknown.

 

So Now we know when roughly Bael the Bard existed. Now let’s try to figure out when more specifically and which Stark King’s interacted with Bael the bard.

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before BaelThere was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

 

Jon gives us Brandon the Shipwright and his son Brandon the Burner. Brandon the Shipwright was lost on the eastern side of Westeros in the Sun Set Sea though, so not completely sure Brandon the Shipwright did, but his son is possible.
First we must try to understand the Stark Kings around those times as best we can, starting with the crypts and the order they are in

 

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A Game of Thrones

To prove that Ned is not there, Maester Luwin brings Bran to the crypts with the assistance of Osha instead of Hodor. Bran identifies the statues of Kings JonRickardTheon the Hungry WolfBrandon the ShipwrightBrandon the BurnerRodrik, and Torrhen Stark, as well as Lords Creganand Rickard and Rickard's children, Brandon and Lyanna. Rickon Stark, having hidden in Ned's empty tomb, claims he also had a vision of Ned the previous night. Later in Luwin's turret, they receive a raven informing them of Ned's death in King's Landing.[8]

 

 

 

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A Clash of Kings

Bran and Rickon, Meera and Jojen Reed, Hodor, and Osha survive the sack of Winterfell by having already been hiding within the crypts, Hodor no longer being terrified.[14] Osha wields the sword which Mikken had made for Eddard's tomb, while Meera takes Lord Rickard's sword and Bran takes that of his namesake, his uncle Brandon. Once Osha lights a torch, Bran sees the tombs of Lyanna and Brandon, as well as those of Lord Rickard; Lord Edwyle; Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable; Lords DonnorBeron, and Rodwell; one-eyed Lord Jonnel; Lord Barth; Lord Brandon; and Lord Cregan Stark.[6]As they leave they pass the tombs of King Torrhen, the King Who Knelt; Edwyn the Spring KingTheon, the Hungry Wolf; Brandon the Burner and Brandon the ShipwrightJorah and JonosBrandon the BadWalton the Moon KingEdderion the BridegroomEyronBenjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, and Edric Snowbeard. Hodor is able to move the ironwood door blocking their exit.[6]

 

 

 

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A Dance with Dragons

Lady Barbrey Dustin has Theon show her the entrance to the crypts, and they descend into the dark. Theon sees the statues of Edric SnowbeardBrandon the ShipwrightTheon Stark, and Beron Stark. They notice one statue missing a rusted sword, as well as swords missing from those of Lord Rickard Starkand Brandon Stark. Barbrey confides to Theon her relationship with Brandon in her youth. She wants to prevent Ned Stark's bones from reaching Winterfell because he did not bring Willam Dustin's remains back to Barrowton after Robert's Rebellion.

 

 So here we are given three glimpses into the crypts. Something to note is that they go in chronological order (even when missing people). Theon Stark is the only discrepancy appearing 1/3 times in a different order to Brandon the Shipwright and his Son Brandon the Burner. Which are the two Brandon’s Jon points out. Which, looking at the List of Kings to the list and order of Kings beyond the Wall, we can see why. Bael existed sometime in the 1000 years before Aegon’s Conquest as noted by Kings Beyond the Wall list, and sometime within the last 700 years for Manderly to say they haven’t had strength at sea since Brandon the Burner burned their ships. Now granted Martin could stick an unknown Brandon into the list that he hasn’t already, but more than likely, he’s told us which Brandon it was.

Another thing to note about the list of Kings, and Lords, is that the list of Lords, gives every Lord listed in the Stark Tree in TWOIAF other than Lord Brandon Stark. Which I’m going to go out on a limb and assume was a late addition to the tree to make time lines match up right for that time.

An addition to the list comes from Jon’s Quote below stating that Harlon was only centuries ago and was a King. So we know King Harlon was less than 1000 years ago for sure. Harlon interestingly is sieging House Bolton and Bael’s story has a Bolton flaying Bael’s son, the Stark King.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

"Risk is part of war," declared Ser Richard Horpe, a lean knight with a ravaged face whose quilted doublet showed three death's-head moths on a field of ash and bone. "Every battle is a gamble, Snow. The man who does nothing also takes a risk."

"There are risks and risks, Ser Richard. This one … it is too much, too soon, too far away. I know the Dreadfort. It is a strong castle, all of stone, with thick walls and massive towers. With winter coming you will find it well provisioned. Centuries ago, House Bolton rose up against the King in the North, and Harlon Stark laid siege to the Dreadfort. It took him two years to starve them out. To have any hope of taking the castle, Your Grace would need siege engines, towers, battering rams …"

 

 

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A Clash of Kings - Bran II

"We have had no strength at sea for hundreds of years, since Brandon the Burner put the torch to his father's ships. Grant me the gold and within the year I will float you sufficient galleys to take Dragonstone and King's Landing both."

 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The North: Winterfell

The inner walls, which were once the only defensive walls, are estimated to be some two thousand years old,

 

 

Now one interesting thing to point out before moving forward is Hardhome, which was sacked 600 years ago and burned to the ground. This was the same century that Valyria took Dragonstone and Valyrian Steel starts popping up in Westeros. So this is an interesting time for Bael to possibly fit into. Plus you have House Mormont getting Bear Island sometime around then and the Valyrian blade Long Claw.

 

King Dorren Stark – N.w. out of Shadow Tower trading with CotF and fighting Giants.

King Brandon IX Stark – Broke Skagosi power and ships. 

King John Stark – Built Wolf’s Den to defend against raiders (Valyrians?) Crypts

King Rickard Stark- Son of John Stark who built wolf’s den. Took Neck from Marsh Kings. Crypts

King Edrik Snow Beard Stark- Crypts Lost Wolf’s Den when old. Outer Walls of Winterfell raised sometime after inner wall raised in 1700BC. (inner walls raised 2000 years ago from 300ac.- 1700Bc during the time of the Horned Lord? So Edrik Snow Beard is some time after 1700BC)

King Brandon Ice Eyes Stark- Great Grandson of Edrik. Regained Wolf’s Den.

King Benjen Bitter Stark– Crypts

King Benjen Sweet Stark- Crypts

King Eyron Stark- Crypts

King Edderion Bridegroom Stark – Crypts

King Walton MoonKing Stark- Crypts

King Brandon the Bad Stark- Crypts

King Jorah Stark- Crypts

King Jonos Stark- Crypts

King Theon Hungry Wolf Stark- fought Argos Sevenstar Andals, 3 Sisters, Wildlings, Ironborn. Crypts

King Brandon Shipwright Stark- Has dreamy face, lost at sea Sunset Sea Crypts

King Brandon Burner Stark- Burned father’s fleet Centuries ago Crypts

King Rodrik Stark- Gave Bear Island to House Mormont. Crypts

King Harlon Stark – Sieged Dreadfort and House Bolton. Centuries ago

King Edwyn Spring King Stark- Crypts

King Torrhen King who Knelt Stark –    Aegon’s Conquest Crypts

? Lord, son of Torhen, Time of Aenys and Maegor

? Lord, time of Jaehaerys II and Alysanne

? Lord Ellard Stark – attends council of 101ac.

Lord Benjen Stark - Crypts

Lord Rickon Stark - Crypts

Lord Cregan Old Man of the North Stark- Dance of Dragons Crypts

Lord Jonnel One Eye Stark- Crypts

Lord Brandon Stark-

Lord Barthogan Stark- Crypts

Lord Rodwell Stark- Crypts

Lord Beron Stark- Crypts

Lord Donnor Stark- Crypts

Lord Willam Stark - Crypts

Lord Edwyle Stark - Crypts

Lord Rickard Stark- Crypts

Lord Eddard Stark-

King Robb Stark-

 

Now applying the Kings Beyond the Wall and the Kings of Winter together, there are some interesting things that standout. Namely to do with the Wolf’s Den being raised possibly due to Valyrian’s (Bael?), and the dating of King Edrik Snow Beard, who is living sometime after the Inner Walls have already been raised in 1700BC, as Edrik raises the outter walls. This time after 1700BC is the one of the two possible dating’s for Bael the Bard. Yet something more interesting is tied to that time frame, Valyria being linked to the raising of the Wolf’s Den.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Until King's Landing rose beside the Blackwater, White Harbor was the newest city in the Seven Kingdoms. Built with the wealth that the Manderlys had brought with them from the Reach after having been driven into exile by Lord Lorimar Peake at the behest of King Perceon III Gardener, who feared their swelling power in the Reach, White Harbor has more in common with the fine castles and towers of the Reach than with the castles of the North; it is said that the New Keep was built to reflect the castle of Dunstonbury, which the Manderlys had lost in their exile.

Even before the coming of the Andals, the Wolf's Den had been raised by King Jon Stark, built to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders and slavers from across the narrow sea (some scholars suggest these were early Andal incursions, whilst others argue they were the forebears of the men of Ib, or even slavers out of Valyria and Volantis).

Held for centuries by a succession of houses (including the Greystarks, an offshoot of House Stark itself, as well as Flints, Slates, Longs, Holts, Lockes, and Ashwoods), the ancient fortress would be the focus of a succession of conflicts. During the wars between Winterfell and the Andal Kings of Mountain and Vale, the Old Falcon, Osgood Arryn, laid siege to the Wolf's Den. His son, King Oswin the Talon, captured it and put it to the torch. Later, it fell under attack from the pirate lords of the Three Sisters and slavers out of the Stepstones. It was not until some thousand years before the Conquest, when the fugitive Manderlys came to the North and swore their oaths at the Wolf's Den, that the problem of the defense of the White Knife—the river that provides access into the very heart of the North—was resolved with the creation of White Harbor.

 

 This calls into question the “Sea Raiders” being mentioned. As Theon Stark who lived well after is clearly fighting the Andals in the known time of the Andal Invasion. As, the Maesters “speculate” that these “Sea Raiders” were early Andals, meaning this time frame is before the Andals arrived in known full force. House Manderly have held the Wolf’s Den for roughly 700-1000 years, so likely receiving it sometime within a couple hundred years after Brandon Ice Eyes.

Theon Stark may be before Brandon the Shipwright or after, but either way, his crypt is very close to Brandon’s. Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner are likely close to the time of Hardhome and when Valyria takes Dragonstone.

But no matter when Bael came, Valyria appears to have been making a presence possibly for much earlier than Bael or Hardhome and Valyria. What is going on though???

 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.

"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed." Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. "After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn't have room for all of them, so they said they'd just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto's think that she'll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome."

"It is good to know. This is two. Is there a third?"

 

Here we have Arya mentioning Slavers coming for the North again now, is this relevant? They apparently havn’t known of wildlings as a good source of slaves for a while now.

Im going to cut it off here for now. Let me know what you think is going on. How is Valyria getting at the North? Is this before Braavos? What about the Andals? Sure dragons can fly, but you still need ships for slaves.  Is this how Valyria came into conflict with the Andals before the Rhoynar, as the Rhoynar should serve as a buffer between the two? But if Valyria is already in Westeros, how does that aid the Andals to run from Valyria to go some where’s Valyria goes for slaves?

 

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Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

They hung upon the walls, before her and behind her, high and low, everywhere she looked, everywhere she turned. She saw old faces and young faces, pale faces and dark faces, smooth faces and wrinkled faces, freckled faces and scarred faces, handsome faces and homely faces, men and women, boys and girls, even babes, smiling faces, frowning faces, faces full of greed and rage and lust, bald faces and faces bristling with hair. Masks, she told herself, it's only masks, but even as she thought the thought, she knew it wasn't so. They were skins.

 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort, where the Boltons hang the skins of their enemies."

"That's just one of Old Nan's stories," Bran said. A note of doubt crept into his voice. "Isn't it?"

"I don't know." He gave a weary shake of his head.

 

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

 

What’s House Bolton and the Faceless Men’s part in all of this? Just fighting Valyria in Westeros and Essos?  Let me know.   :)

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Note, the Horned Lord is likely around Edrik Snowbeard, and Bael is likely centuries later closer to Theon Stark and Brandon the Shipwright and his son, imo. 

Im thinking the Valyrians were coming to Westeros for sometime before ever taking Dragonstone and burning Hardhome down. Or, i should say, they never lost their ancient connection to Westeros?

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10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Note, the Horned Lord is likely around Edrik Snowbeard, and Bael is likely centuries later closer to Theon Stark and Brandon the Shipwright and his son, imo. 

Im thinking the Valyrians were coming to Westeros for sometime before ever taking Dragonstone and burning Hardhome down. Or, i should say, they never lost their ancient connection to Westeros?

Theon the Hungry Wolf lived centuries before Edrick Snowbeard.

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3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Theon the Hungry Wolf lived centuries before Edrick Snowbeard.

How do you figure? He's clearly listed closer to Torrhen Stark in the crypts. Even if off by centuries, that's far closer than Edrick Snowbeard.

 

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A Game of Thrones

To prove that Ned is not there, Maester Luwin brings Bran to the crypts with the assistance of Osha instead of Hodor. Bran identifies the statues of Kings JonRickardTheon the Hungry WolfBrandon the ShipwrightBrandon the BurnerRodrik, and Torrhen Stark, as well as Lords Creganand Rickard and Rickard's children, Brandon and Lyanna. Rickon Stark, having hidden in Ned's empty tomb, claims he also had a vision of Ned the previous night. Later in Luwin's turret, they receive a raven informing them of Ned's death in King's Landing

 

 

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Bran and Rickon, Meera and Jojen Reed, Hodor, and Osha survive the sack of Winterfell by having already been hiding within the crypts, Hodor no longer being terrified.[14] Osha wields the sword which Mikken had made for Eddard's tomb, while Meera takes Lord Rickard's sword and Bran takes that of his namesake, his uncle Brandon. Once Osha lights a torch, Bran sees the tombs of Lyanna and Brandon, as well as those of Lord Rickard; Lord Edwyle; Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable; Lords DonnorBeron, and Rodwell; one-eyed Lord Jonnel; Lord Barth; Lord Brandon; and Lord Cregan Stark.[6]As they leave they pass the tombs of King Torrhen, the King Who Knelt; Edwyn the Spring KingTheon, the Hungry Wolf; Brandon the Burner and Brandon the ShipwrightJorah and JonosBrandon the BadWalton the Moon KingEdderion the BridegroomEyronBenjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, and Edric Snowbeard. Hodor is able to move the ironwood door blocking their exit.[6]

^ Every Stark Lord is in proper order with only one Stark Lord not listed, Lord Brandon. Double check family tree in TWOIAF. So why, would Theon be listed so far out of order? He's not.  He's where he should be, where GRRM wants him. 

 

Edit- since the tombs run down both sides of the crypts, Theon is around Brandon the Shipwright, before or after doesn't matter, he's near them. 

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13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im thinking the Valyrians were coming to Westeros for sometime before ever taking Dragonstone and burning Hardhome down. Or, i should say, they never lost their ancient connection to Westeros?

Valyrians raiding westeros for slaves? why not.
One thing, we do not know when valyrian steel came to westeros. We know that some weapons were 600 years old. Lady Forlorn, which may or may not be valyrian would have been here for a few thousand years  

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6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Valyrians raiding westeros for slaves? why not.
One thing, we do not know when valyrian steel came to westeros. We know that some weapons were 600 years old. Lady Forlorn, which may or may not be valyrian would have been here for a few thousand years  

Right, it doesn't seem like a far leap and even the Maesters speculate on this activity. The Wolfs den was raised against them possibly and with Bael and Maege Mormont sharing Valyrian spelling has me really intrigued. No great theory or anything so far, but their presence seems to be there.

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4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Theon the Hungry Wolf lived centuries before Edrick Snowbeard.

If you check my list, its in proper order to the listing of the Crypts and the listing in the Family Tree of Twoiaf, with CRYPT labeled next to any one found in the crypts. NO, i didnt include Artos as he was not a king or lord. 

Only people not in the crypts that are on the list is Harlon Stark listed as only centuries ago, Dorren Stark, Brandon IX, and Brandon Ice Eyes Stark. Based on Harlon's dating as only centuries ago, im assuming he is broadly in the right place. Brandon Burner is also listed as being centuries ago, so they must be fairly close.

Again, Theon is listed either right before the 2 Ship Brandon's, or right after. Not much margin though. I know his deed's sound off, but perhaps its the events we need to relook at, and not when he was. People "assume" Theon started the War of the Three Sisters, but there is no proof of this. Andals? Was it Andals? Andals in Braavos? Why not? It was there land first, stands to reason some survived no?

Answer me why Braavos and Pentos are all square buildings though, and the Andals left no ruined palaces or kingdoms behind. We are not looking at things right imo. We are told many things which counter the facts. Andals built so well, yet 

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Returning to the Vale to don the Falcon Crown, Roland felt that the Gates of the Moon, the seat of his house, was ugly compared to the grander castles of the First Men. He initially wanted to tear down the Gates of the Moon and rebuild it, but was reminded of the site's vulnerability after thousands of wildlingsdescended from the Mountains of the Moon in search of food during winter.[1]

Why is Westeros structures better? Why is the oldest tower in Winterfell round? Why is the oldest tower at Pyke round? Why is Storm's End round? 

I am interested in any questioning of the order of kings. I do admit that the ones from Brandon Shipwright to Torrhen may be slightly out of order. 

Edit- That falcon crown was forged in 1000AD in Old Town and first worn by Ser Artys Arryn.

 

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13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Another thing to note about the list of Kings, and Lords, is that the list of Lords, gives every Lord listed in the Stark Tree in TWOIAF other than Lord Brandon Stark. Which I’m going to go out on a limb and assume was a late addition to the tree to make time lines match up right for that time.

Lord Brandon is listed in both ACOK: Bran VII and TWOIAF: Stark Lineage. 

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread. (ACOK: Bran VII)

Regarding Theon Stark, since he's listed in two different orders, he must be listed out of order in one of them. And since he fought Andal invaders and raised a fleet to attack Andalos itself, we can assume that he lived closer to two thousand years ago than one.

And if the North hasn't had strength at sea in hundreds of years, when Brandon the Burner put the torch to his father's ships, we can assume that Theon lived before Brandon Sr. and Brandon Jr., and was probably separated from them by many centuries.

It is possible that Brandon Sr. and Brandon Jr. lived somewhere around the time of the Hardhome destruction or the Valyrian occupation of Dragonstone, which are both dated to only about 600 years ago, but there is no way Theon lived anywhere near late enough to have lived around these times.

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1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Lord Brandon is listed in both ACOK: Bran VII and TWOIAF: Stark Lineage. 

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread. (ACOK: Bran VII)

Regarding Theon Stark, since he's listed in two different orders, he must be listed out of order in one of them. And since he fought Andal invaders and raised a fleet to attack Andalos itself, we can assume that he lived closer to two thousand years ago than one.

And if the North hasn't had strength at sea in hundreds of years, when Brandon the Burner put the torch to his father's ships, we can assume that Theon lived before Brandon Sr. and Brandon Jr., and was probably separated from them by many centuries.

It is possible that Brandon Sr. and Brandon Jr. lived somewhere around the time of the Hardhome destruction or the Valyrian occupation of Dragonstone, which are both dated to only about 600 years ago, but there is no way Theon lived anywhere near late enough to have lived around these times.

Oops, my bad on Lord Brandon. I thought there was one he forgot to list but never mind, it was that he lists Artos who wasn't king. My bad.

I would think you are right about Theon being before the Shipwright given Brandon burned the fleet after, and i should have placed him accordingly. Dont know why i spaced that, other than there is just so much to keep in order lol I hate little mistakes though.

I would think he is still close to where he should be since Bran list alllll the Stark lords in the right order, i dont see why he would list Theon over a thousand years out of place. They shouldnt be any where near each other in the crypt if that were the case. Considering the Falcon Crown was forged in 1000BC, the same year the Starry Sept was built in Old Town following Andals conquest of the Reach, and Hardhome and Brandon the Burner are likely roughly in 300ac. I would say that this does sounds contradictory, but for what we know of the Andals and Andalos, which is truly nill. What places did Theon sack? a fortified Sept? Where? Where are all these great Andal structures with round towers in Essos for Theon to go attack? Further, Pentos should be around for sure, and it's all square buildings. Braavos is roughly 700 years old at least but all their buildings are square too. And where is the Andal religion in Braavos or Pentos? Signs of this culture? A wooden structure on top the Maze Makers Maze hardly sounds impressive. 

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39 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Lord Brandon is listed in both ACOK: Bran VII and TWOIAF: Stark Lineage. 

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread. (ACOK: Bran VII)

Regarding Theon Stark, since he's listed in two different orders, he must be listed out of order in one of them. And since he fought Andal invaders and raised a fleet to attack Andalos itself, we can assume that he lived closer to two thousand years ago than one.

And if the North hasn't had strength at sea in hundreds of years, when Brandon the Burner put the torch to his father's ships, we can assume that Theon lived before Brandon Sr. and Brandon Jr., and was probably separated from them by many centuries.

It is possible that Brandon Sr. and Brandon Jr. lived somewhere around the time of the Hardhome destruction or the Valyrian occupation of Dragonstone, which are both dated to only about 600 years ago, but there is no way Theon lived anywhere near late enough to have lived around these times.

Im interested in Theon more.

This is two alternate time threads working from different sources. Top one working off quote from Yandel over the Gardener Kings served by Serwyn, Davos Dragon Slayer, Knight w/pit armor, etc, and bridging those kings with the people they interact with. I also tried to use what is known of the Iron born in that time line. 

The other one below works from current events backwards using interesting time quotes from the books. Like Falcon crown, or Starry Sept, or Inner Walls of Winerfell. 

Garth the green God on Earth                                                          

Garth Gardener            Maris = Uthor Hightower   Bloody Brandon   Durran God’s Grief     Grey King?

                            (Bloodstone Emperor before, during this time. Huzhor Amai and Azor Ahai also?)

Garth II          Urrigon and Peremore Hightower (Maesters)        Bran Builder     

                                            Age of the Long Night

Garth III                                                                                                                    first ironborn king  Urras GreyIron?

                                                                                                                                                                             Regnar Drumm.

Garth V Hammer of the Dornish       

                                                                                                   Time line connect point A.                     

Gwayne I The Gallant                                         King Harrag Hoare vs   King Theon Stark vs Andals   Roughly 2000?? years ago

                                                                                        King Samwell Dayne The Starfire  (Andals in Riverlands & Vale?)

                                                                                         Qhored the Cruel  kills Bernar II Justman, ending House.

Gyles I the Woe                              *Samwell, Qhored, Glyes within a the same century sack Old Town.

                                                          King Othos III Hightower builds walls of Old Town.

 

-----------------------------End of Slavery on Main Land Westeros---------------------------------------------------

 

Mery III – Brings Arbor into the Reach                                                                                                   Balon V Greyjoy

Garland IIWed Lymond Hightower’s daughter bringing Old Town into Reach.       Erich V Harlaw

 

Gareth II the Grim                              slain by Harron Harlaw son of Erich V Harlaw

                                                                               Within 50 years Joron I Blacktyde            *Ironborn decline.

Garth VI MorningStar – killed by Ironborn                                                     Urragon III GreyIron

                                                                                                                                                    Urathon Goodbrother

Gordon I Grey Eyes                                                                                                        Torgon GreyIron

                                                                                                                                                    Urragon IV GreyIron

                                                                                                                                                   Urron Redhand

-----------------------------End of Driftwood kings and start of GreyIron dynasty.--------------------------------

 (Andals On IronIsles) sometime after Blacktydes said to have ruled 1000 years but likely shorter by a lil bit.

 

2700Bc  - Blackwoods vs Bracken feud begins during the Age of Hereos 1. Gendel and Gorne 2.

 

 

1700 Bc – Dawn Forged to fight the Long Night.  3 . Joramun teams up with Brandon the Breaker against the Night King? Or the Century afer? 4. Andal Invasion of Westeros 5. Inner Walls and only defense of Winterfell built (Theon Stark this time or after, no earlier. Time of Early Andal Invasion) 6. Abandonment of Zamettar 7. Time line connect point A

1436 Bc- Scouring of Lorath by Valyria 8

1336 Bc- Boash on Lorath 9

 

1000 Bc- Starry Sept built in Old Town after Andal Conquest , Glass Candles brought to Old Town from Valyria , Falcon Crown first worn by Artys Arryn I forged  (So this is the time of completion in the Andal Conquest)

950 Bc- Start of Rhoynish Wars with Valyria 13

700 Bc- The Horned Lord passes the Wall using magic 14. Nymeria’s 10,000 ships. And End of Rhoynish Wars with Valyria 15

400Bc- Osric Stark youngest L.C. serves for 60 years 16

300 Bc- Hardhome, first city north of the Wall burned to the ground 17, Valyrians take Dragonstone  18. . Commanders at Night Fort and Snow Gate go to war, teaming up to kill the L.C. till the Stark in Winterfell kills them.  19 Freys take the Neck. 20. Bael the Bard 

200Bc- Gate at Wall/ Bridge of Skulls Sealed. 21. Valyrian Steel Blades begin to enter Westeros. 22.

112Bbc – Exile of the Targaryens from Valyria and flight to Westeros 23.

100 Bc- Doom of Valyria by Lannister Gold to the Faceless Men for entering Westeros? 24

0 – Aegon’s Conquest 25

226 Ac – Raymund RedBeard vs Lord Willam Stark 27

300 Ac- Mance Rayder 28

 

 

In the Green you can see where Theon roughly falls. Though looking at the other dates in Red you see he is no later than 1700 years ago (1300AC). 

So you may be right bout Theon still being a bit before Brandon the Shipwright. Theon being afer 1700Bc is backed up in the red time line too by the Inner Walls of Winterfell being built. We know this as Theon wouldn't leave Winterfell unguarded. 

I can't decide if he's out of order from the Other Starks though. Or if the Starks listed before him are all roughly real close together, with a gap to theon, then another gap to Brandon the Shipwright. 

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4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Valyrians raiding westeros for slaves? why not.
One thing, we do not know when valyrian steel came to westeros. We know that some weapons were 600 years old. Lady Forlorn, which may or may not be valyrian would have been here for a few thousand years   

Hmm...

Two centuries passed—centuries in which the coveted Valyrian steel began to trickle into the Seven Kingdoms more swiftly than before—though not swiftly enough for all the lords and kings who desired it.

For some reason Valyrians accelerated trade in Valyrian swords after the destruction of Rhoynar. Those swords also didn't come through regular trade, since it would favor wealthy Houses and the lesser Houses would get jack squat. But it's mostly the other way around! Bunch of secondary Houses like Corbrays and Reynes and whatnot got VS swords and many of the big boys like Arryns did not.

Valyrians relied heavily on slave labor mining gold in their volcanoes... They even started wars to keep their mines stocked. With the destruction of Rhoynar and conquest of most neighbors, Mother-Valyria could be running out of cheap, expendable slaves they could burn through in the mines. So it is entirely possible that VS trade was not done in coin, but flesh.

Another thing about VS-owning Houses - they are not exclusively the richest Houses, but they tend to be close to the coast. Harlaws, Mormonts, Cobrays, Reyenes, Royces, Hightowers, Lannisters... Very convenient if one is to organize illicit slave trade - in the form of "unexpected" slaver raids, "lost" ships and such. Lannisters and Hightowers may be the richest out there, so no questions about their trade. The Starks on the other hand may not be nearly as rich, but they ruled a land where surplus people were regularly sent to die in snows/raids to the south; Starks would have some flesh to peddle. The Durrandons and Martells on the other hand would not - their lands are thinly peopled and every peasant counts in the wars with each other and numerically superior Reachmen. Corbrays and Royces could secretly "poach" the Mountain clans - especially Royces who have ports of their own. And so forth.

Wouldn't that be a twist - Valyrian Steel, this coveted symbol of prestige... is actually a badge of collaboration with dragon-riding slavers, payed in blood of peasants who burned in infernal fires a continent away from home.

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Theon Stark lived during the height of the Andal invasion. He also is stated to have “raised a fleet” to invade Andalos after Argos Sevenstar’s failed invasion of the North, which suggests that the Starks didn’t have a significant fleet at the start of his reign.

He then also invaded the Three Sisters and landed an army in the Fingers, strongly suggesting that he participated in the War across the Water. Given that this war by default required the Starks to have a strong fleet (the Arryns had hundreds of longships by comparison, and the two sides appeared evenly matched in this 1000 year conflict), it is unlikely that Theon lived in the middle or latter part of this war, else he would have had a fleet already and would not have had to build a new one to invade Andalos.

Placing Theon Stark during the Rape of the Three Sisters makes a lot of sense. It aligns with the Andal invasion, and provides sufficient time for a protracted War across the Water until the Manderly arrival and the construction of White Harbor made the Starks lose interest in the Three Sisters 1000 years ago.

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Theon Stark lived during the height of the Andal invasion. He also is stated to have “raised a fleet” to invade Andalos after Argos Sevenstar’s failed invasion of the North, which suggests that the Starks didn’t have a significant fleet at the start of his reign.

He then also invaded the Three Sisters and landed an army in the Fingers, strongly suggesting that he participated in the War across the Water. Given that this war by default required the Starks to have a strong fleet (the Arryns had hundreds of longships by comparison, and the two sides appeared evenly matched in this 1000 year conflict), it is unlikely that Theon lived in the middle or latter part of this war, else he would have had a fleet already and would not have had to build a new one to invade Andalos.

Placing Theon Stark during the Rape of the Three Sisters makes a lot of sense. It aligns with the Andal invasion, and provides sufficient time for a protracted War across the Water until the Manderly arrival and the construction of White Harbor made the Starks lose interest in the Three Sisters 1000 years ago.

With the Inner Walls of Winterfell roughly 2000 years old, 1700BC, we can figure Theon was after the Inner Walls were raised. Or else Winterfell could have been invaded while he was out on one of his many wars. 

Edit- So maybe with in that century or close to

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Theon Stark lived during the height of the Andal invasion. He also is stated to have “raised a fleet” to invade Andalos after Argos Sevenstar’s failed invasion of the North, which suggests that the Starks didn’t have a significant fleet at the start of his reign.

He then also invaded the Three Sisters and landed an army in the Fingers, strongly suggesting that he participated in the War across the Water. Given that this war by default required the Starks to have a strong fleet (the Arryns had hundreds of longships by comparison, and the two sides appeared evenly matched in this 1000 year conflict), it is unlikely that Theon lived in the middle or latter part of this war, else he would have had a fleet already and would not have had to build a new one to invade Andalos.

Placing Theon Stark during the Rape of the Three Sisters makes a lot of sense. It aligns with the Andal invasion, and provides sufficient time for a protracted War across the Water until the Manderly arrival and the construction of White Harbor made the Starks lose interest in the Three Sisters 1000 years ago.

Though Theon is still listed close to Torhen. But the Falcon crown first worn by Ser Artys Arryn wasn't forged till 1000BC, and he couldn't have been apart of the War across the Waters if the Arryns hadn't even invade yet, then i would venture still that Theon isn't infact part of the War across the Waters. He is before them and the Arryns. 

Edit- Arrg, just argg haha 

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I think there may be something here, not sure that bael himself was valyrian but the connections and dates  you have are intriguing and it makes logical sense that they would have to look further and further out for slaves, especially during the roughly three centuries their westward expansion was held in check by the rhoyonar 

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Though Theon is still listed close to Torhen. But the Falcon crown first worn by Ser Artys Arryn wasn't forged till 1000BC, and he couldn't have been apart of the War across the Waters if the Arryns hadn't even invade yet, then i would venture still that Theon isn't infact part of the War across the Waters. He is before them and the Arryns. 

Edit- Arrg, just argg haha 

That is clearly wrong given that the War across the Water happened in the days when the Wolfs Den guarded the mouth of the White Knife - meaning before the Manderlys arrived and built White Harbor.

Also, when the Manderlys arrived in the North around 1000 years ago, the Reach was already completely converted to the Andal Faith, else the Manderlys would not have followed the Seven. And clearly the Vale was Andalized centuries before the Reach. So there is no way the Arryns only took over the Vale around the time the Manderlys arrived in the North.

 

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18 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

Another thing about VS-owning Houses - they are not exclusively the richest Houses, but they tend to be close to the coast. Harlaws, Mormonts, Cobrays, Reyenes, Royces, Hightowers, Lannisters... Very convenient if one is to organize illicit slave trade - in the form of "unexpected" slaver raids, "lost" ships and such. Lannisters and Hightowers may be the richest out there, so no questions about their trade. The Starks on the other hand may not be nearly as rich, but they ruled a land where surplus people were regularly sent to die in snows/raids to the south; Starks would have some flesh to peddle. The Durrandons and Martells on the other hand would not - their lands are thinly peopled and every peasant counts in the wars with each other and numerically superior Reachmen. Corbrays and Royces could secretly "poach" the Mountain clans - especially Royces who have ports of their own. And so forth.

Wouldn't that be a twist - Valyrian Steel, this coveted symbol of prestige... is actually a badge of collaboration with dragon-riding slavers, payed in blood of peasants who burned in infernal fires a continent away from home.

Hmmmm, now that's a very tempting idea. I'm going to have to go back and look at some things again :cheers:

But wouldn't it be ironic, given what Ned Stark did to Jorah Mormont for selling slaves :D

Oh, by the way: the Corbrays are an exception to this rule as they supposedly brought Lady Forlorn with them during the Andal invasion - but of course, that doesn't rule out that they just may have been doing the same thing in Andalos first, though how would that square with the Fot7's stance against slavery?

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10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That is clearly wrong given that the War across the Water happened in the days when the Wolfs Den guarded the mouth of the White Knife - meaning before the Manderlys arrived and built White Harbor.

Also, when the Manderlys arrived in the North around 1000 years ago, the Reach was already completely converted to the Andal Faith, else the Manderlys would not have followed the Seven. And clearly the Vale was Andalized centuries before the Reach. So there is no way the Arryns only took over the Vale around the time the Manderlys arrived in the North.

 

Well one possible time frame for the Manderly's is 700 years ago, 1000 years ago, and 1300 years ago.


If Manderly's took the Wolf Den in 400AC When House Hoare took the Iron Islands. 

and about 1000AC-1400AC is when the Rape of the Three Sisters roughly took place, the War of the Waters roughly begins, and House Grey Iron take controll of the Iron Isles roughly around this time. Gives enough rough time for the Andals to sweep from East to West, to have taken the Reach before Manderly's went North, and Theon Stark just at the start of it all right before the Grey Iron's took controll, making it possible for Theon to have fought Harrag Hoare on the declining years of the Iron Born under driftwood kings.

This is a slight crunch, but not really if we use Manderly's as a rough dating as they are said to have held the Wolf Den for 1000 years with a slide between 700 years to 1300 years. So anything dubbing 1000 years or 2000 years, is subject to this same slide.

As far as Theon's placement in the tomb to Brandon the Burner is that one side of the wall runs through the lords and most recent kings, with the opposite wall, starting near Torhhen, would pick up with the Kings on that side. So near, Torrhen should be both Lords and Kings. Theoretically. 

Best i got

Edit- So we'll say roughly

1700BC- Theon Stark vs Harrag Hoare and raises Inner Walls of Winterfell.

1400-1000Bc-  Jon Stark builds the Wolf's Den, House Grey Iron rule in Iron isles, and Falcon Crown roughly forged under Ser Artys Arryn, Mathos Arryn following within century or two.

400BC- House Manderly take Wolf's Den after Andals Sweep across the Reach, House Hoare take Iron Isles.

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I always thought Val could be a descendant of Bloodraven and or Shaeria Seastar, possibly their grandchild. Val speaks almost like a noble despite being a wildling and is incredibly beautiful like most Valyrians, her very name could be a clue and an ode to her ancestry, Valyrian . I'd be surprised if there isn't a thread on this site or another that explores the possibilities of Val being of Valyrian decent. If Dalla is Val full sister and not a half one that could be a reason Mance married her.

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22 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

Hmm...

Two centuries passed—centuries in which the coveted Valyrian steel began to trickle into the Seven Kingdoms more swiftly than before—though not swiftly enough for all the lords and kings who desired it.

For some reason Valyrians accelerated trade in Valyrian swords after the destruction of Rhoynar. Those swords also didn't come through regular trade, since it would favor wealthy Houses and the lesser Houses would get jack squat. But it's mostly the other way around! Bunch of secondary Houses like Corbrays and Reynes and whatnot got VS swords and many of the big boys like Arryns did not.

Or, as the metal became more known, more people sought them out.

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