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Hardhome theories?


Stormking902

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I'm not sure Hardhome will be any house base.  All those dead things in the water and shrieking caves you know.   Can't definitively state that dragons are there, but something is in those caves.  Maybe Gornes' children!   As to abandonment it obviously sustained catastrophic damage in it's pre-Doom cataclysm.   Still, there doesn't seem to be the same wide spread fire related damage that Valyria sustained.  Something opposite--an earthquake maybe?  In light of the legends Hardhome could have been an outpost for the Valyrians, but there is very little evidence or hint to that.   Where are the silver haired Wildlings or tales of dragon riders from antiquity?   Something very very bad happened there.   It was a thriving community at one point, which is odd all by itself because well, who would run a place like that?   Perhaps there are hints in the varied Wildling communities?  Skinchangers, Horn footed people, Ice River clans worshipping strange gods, the different Kings Beyond the Wall maybe the Nights King or his intolerable group?   Certainly there is trade between the Wildlings and Nights Watch, but not enough to describe a thriving community.   Skagosi seem to be adept traders.   Who would trade at Hardome?   Merchants beyond slavers, certainly, but what would the main export be from Hardome?  What about this place would attract enough people to live and trade there?    The primary merchants interested in the lands beyond the Wall seem to be slavers, still there is evidence of wrecked ships likely foreign.   Reading through one has to wonder why Mother Mole would take her people there at all? 

Sorry, didn't mean to ramble.   It's a good topic.   I will be watching for answers and hope you generate a lot of discussion here.    So many possibilities...

 

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not sure Hardhome will be any house base.  All those dead things in the water and shrieking caves you know.   Can't definitively state that dragons are there, but something is in those caves.  Maybe Gornes' children!   As to abandonment it obviously sustained catastrophic damage in it's pre-Doom cataclysm.   Still, there doesn't seem to be the same wide spread fire related damage that Valyria sustained.  Something opposite--an earthquake maybe?  In light of the legends Hardhome could have been an outpost for the Valyrians, but there is very little evidence or hint to that.   Where are the silver haired Wildlings or tales of dragon riders from antiquity?   Something very very bad happened there.   It was a thriving community at one point, which is odd all by itself because well, who would run a place like that?   Perhaps there are hints in the varied Wildling communities?  Skinchangers, Horn footed people, Ice River clans worshipping strange gods, the different Kings Beyond the Wall maybe the Nights King or his intolerable group?   Certainly there is trade between the Wildlings and Nights Watch, but not enough to describe a thriving community.   Skagosi seem to be adept traders.   Who would trade at Hardome?   Merchants beyond slavers, certainly, but what would the main export be from Hardome?  What about this place would attract enough people to live and trade there?    The primary merchants interested in the lands beyond the Wall seem to be slavers, still there is evidence of wrecked ships likely foreign.   Reading through one has to wonder why Mother Mole would take her people there at all? 

Sorry, didn't mean to ramble.   It's a good topic.   I will be watching for answers and hope you generate a lot of discussion here.    So many possibilities...

 

Thank you, I hope this topic generates a lot of talk around Hardhome as well I find it one of Asoiaf greatest mysteries one that I cant wait to figure out. One more theory is could the WW live in the caves around Hardhome? Is Hardhome a base of sorts?. 

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Indeed!   That's one I never considered before.   Try this on:  the caves of Hardhome are a base for WW, but different WW?  This would likely be a very recent development--no more than the years since the cataclysm.  What a neat idea.  

Let's try this also...The Doom effectively destroyed the power of Valrian fire magic.  Still dragons are said to have been seen in Westeros long before the Valyrians were even er, established.  It's been a while since I studied the Doom and cataclysm, please forgive me if my time spans are incorrect.   The Cataclysm at Hardhome occurred 200 years prior to the Doom, or 600 years back.   Valyria was at the height of its power but named Valyrian Steel swords aren't yet present in Westeros (Longclaw and Heartsbane only go back 500 years and they are the oldest I know of).  Given the great power (and presumable wealth) of the noble houses, indeed, royal houses of Westeros at the time isn't this just the strangest thing considering all the legendary swords (10, I think) that did appear in the 200 years between the Cataclysm and The Doom? 

I can't help but muse that something was going on at Hardhome that negated the need for VS in Westeros.   What could that be?  Dragonsteel, perhaps?   

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13 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I've always assumed that the Others wiped them out.

My assumption was that's the one thing we CAN rule out, because Hardhome went up in a fire so intense it could be seen from the Wall, and ash drifted down for a long long while afterwards. Given that WW and fire don't normally occur together.....
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

He did. Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

Six centuries had come and gone since that night, but Hardhome was still shunned. The wild had reclaimed the site, Jon had been told, but rangers claimed that the overgrown ruins were haunted by ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood. "It is not the sort of refuge I'd chose either," Jon said, "but Mother Mole was heard to preach that the free folk would find salvation where once they found damnation."

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Reading through one has to wonder why Mother Mole would take her people there at all? 

Well, we know that - because she had a 'prophetic' dream... but why did she have the dream ;) Did domeone or something plant the dream, I wonder ?

 

As to why Hardhome existed in the first place, I think Jon tells us quite plainly:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

Jon had a map before him on the table. He turned it so they could see. "Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay and has a natural harbor deep enough for the biggest ships afloat. Wood and stone are plentiful near there. The waters teem with fish, and there are colonies of seals and sea cows close at hand."

We're still short of ideas why someone decided it needed to be wiped out though....

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Actually, one of the things that I find strange with the story of Hardhome is how long it took the wildlings to come close to building a true city. It took them thousands of years to achieve this. Why is that? 

The description we have of it is that Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay, that it has a natural harbor that's deep enough for big ships to lay anchor there. There is wood and stone, fish, seals, sea cows. And Maester Wyllis went to Hardome on a Pentoshi ship which indicates that trade existed between the Free Cities and the wildlings. Traders didn't just stop at Eastwatch, they traveled further north. 

I think the destruction of Hardhome may come down to one thing. Does Hardhome pose a threat to the realm because of its growth? This is as close as the wildlings come to become "culturally" closer to the rest of Westeros than ever. With trade, money comes, with money, there's growth, more and more wildlings start flocking there, which means that there might be more unity between them. They might start working metal, their weapons might be more than what we have seen through Jon's eyes. 

Maybe Hardhome's growth feels threatening to some and it has to be put down before it becomes something more than what it was.

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

All those dead things in the water and shrieking caves you know.   but something is in those caves.  Maybe Gornes' children!   As to abandonment it obviously sustained catastrophic damage in it's pre-Doom cataclysm. 

I think the weirwood is capable of building up pressure under a weirwood grove and exploding with tremendous force, launching the trees into space.  This is how the weirwood colonizes space.  The Red Comet is one such weirwood.  Look up artillery fungus, it builds up pressure and launches spores into the air.

The shrieking in the caves are the plugged-in CoTF who got left behind.

The High Heart is a ring on trees on a very high hill, it was building up pressure getting ready to launch, but the Andals cut them down before it was ready.  It is only the weirwood rings that do this.

Quote

Hardhome . . . hell had swallowed it.  . . . a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

No mention of lava, it wasn't a volcano, it was just an explosion.

Also, re-read the fight between the Red Viper and the Mountain with the idea that Oberon is a personification of this weirwood that got fired from the surface of Earth at a huge black spaceship that was blocking out the sun.  Oberon fights with spears with leaf shaped blades and he is often underneath the Mountain thrusting up with his spears.  Oberon dies in the conflict but he takes the mountain out too.

Quote
I oft saw him topple boys much bigger than himself. He reminded me of that the day he left for King's Landing. He swore that he would do it one more time, else I would never have let him go."
 
"Let him go?" Obara laughed. "As if you could have stopped him. The Red Viper of Dorne went where he would."

The name Oberon is a moon of Uranus and the king of the fairies from A Midsummer Night's Dream.  His last name means "war hammer."  Sunspear is a synonym for comet or falling star, many of the place names in Dorne relate to falling stars.  "Dorn" is german for "thorn" Irish for "fist", and "Orn" is Tolkien speak for tree, as in Mallorn.

Quote

I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes.

 

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5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, we know that - because she had a 'prophetic' dream... but why did she have the dream ;) Did domeone or something plant the dream, I wonder ?

As to why Hardhome existed in the first place, I think Jon tells us quite plainly:

We're still short of ideas why someone decided it needed to be wiped out though....

Fair point, Rufus.  However, one has to take into consideration that the Wall separates magic to an extent.  What force is likely to have sent Mother Mole's dream?  Right this second I'm going with evil weirwoods thristy for blood--hey it's almost Halloween and it's time for creepy stuff.   

Now then to Jon's map, just a little food for thought...your quote is a current description of Hardhome. (Which come to think of it is a FANTASTIC bunch of reasons for Mother Mole to head that way.)  This abundant life is post Cataclysm--seems to me an event as huge as the Cataclysm would wipe everything out for a very long time.   Maybe this is all new stuff relative to Hardhome?  I'm not sold on the Cataclysm and Doom being the same type of event despite the similarity in descriptions.   The effects of the Doom are still apparent 400 years later.   However you have piqued my curiosity just enough to look into this.   Will report back if I find anything pertinent.   Your quotes were great.   Thanks for bringing in some much needed fact!   

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15 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Actually, one of the things that I find strange with the story of Hardhome is how long it took the wildlings to come close to building a true city. It took them thousands of years to achieve this. Why is that? 

The description we have of it is that Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay, that it has a natural harbor that's deep enough for big ships to lay anchor there. There is wood and stone, fish, seals, sea cows. And Maester Wyllis went to Hardome on a Pentoshi ship which indicates that trade existed between the Free Cities and the wildlings. Traders didn't just stop at Eastwatch, they traveled further north. 

I think the destruction of Hardhome may come down to one thing. Does Hardhome pose a threat to the realm because of its growth? This is as close as the wildlings come to become "culturally" closer to the rest of Westeros than ever. With trade, money comes, with money, there's growth, more and more wildlings start flocking there, which means that there might be more unity between them. They might start working metal, their weapons might be more than what we have seen through Jon's eyes. 

Maybe Hardhome's growth feels threatening to some and it has to be put down before it becomes something more than what it was.

Nice.  

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8 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I think the weirwood is capable of building up pressure under a weirwood grove and exploding with tremendous force, launching the trees into space.  This is how the weirwood colonizes space.  The Red Comet is one such weirwood.  Look up artillery fungus, it builds up pressure and launches spores into the air.

The shrieking in the caves are the plugged-in CoTF who got left behind.

The High Heart is a ring on trees on a very high hill, it was building up pressure getting ready to launch, but the Andals cut them down before it was ready.  It is only the weirwood rings that do this.

No mention of lava, it wasn't a volcano, it was just an explosion.

Also, re-read the fight between the Red Viper and the Mountain with the idea that Oberon is a personification of this weirwood that got fired from the surface of Earth at a huge black spaceship that was blocking out the sun.  Oberon fights with spears with leaf shaped blades and he is often underneath the Mountain thrusting up with his spears.  Oberon dies in the conflict but he takes the mountain out too.

The name Oberon is a moon of Uranus and the king of the fairies from A Midsummer Night's Dream.  His last name means "war hammer."  Sunspear is a synonym for comet or falling star, many of the place names in Dorne relate to falling stars.  "Dorn" is german for "thorn" Irish for "fist", and "Orn" is Tolkien speak for tree, as in Mallorn.

 

Ah well met!   I tried to reply to you in @beumsed topic but couldn't get your name to autopopulate.   Of course, I was not using "by" and now realize the error of my spelling.   If you rejoin that discussion please see my initial reply as I was trying to speak to you.   Now then, I'm sort of with you on the Cataclysm not being a volcanic event.   It's something, but as you say, no mention of lava that I recall nor mention of the long term effects that Valyria still suffers.   The Cataclysm is something else.  Your ideas and research are entirely your own and I will not detract from them.   May I offer that there are surely less esoteric reasons for the Cataclysm.   Today I like earthquake, tomorrow may be a volcano where the Doom becomes a caldera.    Point is there are many places to go with these events.   Next week astronomic events may become more attractive sources for all this destruction.   I'm just not there yet.   If you have not yet been introduced to our friend @LmL, you may find his ideas to be very much to your liking, no doubt adding to your dispositions.   Whether you believe/agree or not, he's always a great read.   

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1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

One more theory is could the WW live in the caves around Hardhome? Is Hardhome a base of sorts?. 

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Indeed!   That's one I never considered before.   Try this on:  the caves of Hardhome are a base for WW, but different WW?  This would likely be a very recent development--no more than the years since the cataclysm.  What a neat idea.  

I wonder if those caves are related to the caves with the skeletons of giant bats that Bran sees in Bloodravens cave.

Says the holes went deep in to the earth. I reckon some big f off bats could have done that.

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I suspect that Valyrians raided Hardhome to gain slaves, but some local skinchangers tried to take over their dragons. Those wargs could not control dragons instead they "only" broke connection between dragons and riders and made those dragons homicidal or dragons just tried to kill anybody including all Valyrians.

So I think that most battles between skinchanger and dragonlord end mutual suicide by mad dragon including massive collateral damage.

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Actually, one of the things that I find strange with the story of Hardhome is how long it took the wildlings to come close to building a true city. It took them thousands of years to achieve this. Why is that? 

The description we have of it is that Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay, that it has a natural harbor that's deep enough for big ships to lay anchor there. There is wood and stone, fish, seals, sea cows. And Maester Wyllis went to Hardome on a Pentoshi ship which indicates that trade existed between the Free Cities and the wildlings. Traders didn't just stop at Eastwatch, they traveled further north. 

I think the destruction of Hardhome may come down to one thing. Does Hardhome pose a threat to the realm because of its growth? This is as close as the wildlings come to become "culturally" closer to the rest of Westeros than ever. With trade, money comes, with money, there's growth, more and more wildlings start flocking there, which means that there might be more unity between them. They might start working metal, their weapons might be more than what we have seen through Jon's eyes. 

Maybe Hardhome's growth feels threatening to some and it has to be put down before it becomes something more than what it was.

There's nothing like quoting oneself. 

I just wanted to add something to this. The destruction of Hardhome comes 300 years before Aegon's Conquest, 186 years before the Doom of Valyria (114 BC). If the Valyrians had anything to do with this, then I think it's something that may have been driven by the power of prophecy.

But I think it's the Stark king of the time who helped bring Hardhome down.

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13 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

 

I wonder if those caves are related to the caves with the skeletons of giant bats that Bran sees in Bloodravens cave.

Says the holes went deep in to the earth. I reckon some big f off bats could have done that.

You know man, this is a lot more fun than I expected to have this late in my forum experience.   Some folks have made a convincing argument that those giant bat skeletons in BR's cave are actually dragons!   I'm trying very hard to do this without my reference materials so forgive me if I mis speak here.   Dragons are theorized to be a hybrid of Wyverns and Wyrms and magic.   I believe Wyrms are the creatures who don't fly but tunnel???   I'm sorry, this is just really fun and the thoughts are flooding me faster than I can get them to type.   Let's suppose those giant bats are Wyvern or dragons--and let's suppose those shrieks in the caves at Hardhome are Wyrms.    I think it's safe to assume the caves north of the wall are all associated if not precisely connected.  Bring it home, brother, what does it mean? 

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9 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There's nothing like quoting oneself. 

I just wanted to add something to this. The destruction of Hardhome comes 300 years before Aegon's Conquest, 186 years before the Doom of Valyria (114 BC). If the Valyrians had anything to do with this, then I think it's something that may have been driven by the power of prophecy.

But I think it's the Stark king of the time who brought Hardhome down.

Ah Lady I KNEW you would know dates.    I am glad to see I wasn't that far off.   Why do you think the Starks brought on the Cataclysm at Hardhome? 

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

May I offer that there are surely less esoteric reasons for the Cataclysm.   Today I like earthquake, tomorrow may be a volcano where the Doom becomes a caldera.    Point is there are many places to go with these events.   Next week astronomic events may become more attractive sources for all this destruction.   I'm just not there yet.   If you have not yet been introduced to our friend @LmL, you may find his ideas to be very much to your liking, no doubt adding to your dispositions.   Whether you believe/agree or not, he's always a great read.   

I have listened to all of LmL's stuff several times over, but have been told in to uncertain terms never to mention his name in conjunction with my "bullshit theories."  He hates the secret sci-fi angle, and favors a full mythological interpretation of the story, but I think he and Preston are both right, the story is a mythology about ancient aliens (the Great Empire), alien psionic trees, and the collapse of human civilization, that incorporates and explains all human myths, legends, and even Lovecraftian lore (Bran is listed alongside Cthulhu is one of his stories). 

Many pages in Dying of the Light are devoted to this idea, there was an alien attack, civilization collapses, humans have to go underground to survive, and all knowledge of what really happened turned to myth, but myth always had a nugget of truth.  Add to this that many of the planets in the 1000 worlds are named after human gods, with the implication being that gods = aliens from other planets.
 

Not sure I follow you on the esoteric point.  The Lion of Night was a black planetary body, cross reference Lovecraft's dark planet Yuggoth with cities built of black stone, and Rahu the decapitated Hindu deity that eats the sun during an eclipse, and chinese myth of Tiangou who is a black dog that eats the sun and they would fire arrows at it to scare it away, and the Norse myth of wolves Skoll and Hati eating to sun and moon during Ragnarok.  The God on Earth descended from the Lion of Night, built a world-spanning civilization (all the places with black stone), and died/returned to the stars.  The Lion of Night--then pilotless--came back and caused an eclipse, that was the Long Night--it was knocked out of eclipse by the red comet/weirwood rocket striking it.  It is still hanging around nearby and that is what is messing up the seasons.  The magical horn will call it back and cause the new Long Night. 

 

The Clegane sigil is 3 black dogs, he is a stone giant, and he is decapitated, and several times blocks out the sun.

" One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Even the way Gregor's skull is presented seems like it is casting a shadow  "presided over by the grinning skull on its pillar of black marble"

 

In Faith of the Seven the gods are the planets, then there is the Stranger, which is a black, genderless, unknowable wanderer from far places.

" He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. "

What was Luwin watching?

 

As for what the weirwood is capable of, the Doom of Valyria was a volcanic eruption/ripping apart of the land caused by the weirwood. 

Quote

It was written that every hill for five hundred miles split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, and entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, and red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons. To the north, the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself, and an angry sea came boiling in.

The breaking of the Arm of Dorne was an earthquake/land ripping apart cause by the weirwood,

Quote

And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves.

the flooding of the Neck was a tidal wave caused by the weirwood?

Quote

Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic. Some contest this, however: the First Men were already in Westeros when this occurred, and stemming the tide from the east would do little more than slow their progress. Moreover, such power is beyond even what the greenseers are traditionally said to have been capable of...and even those accounts appear exaggerated. It is likelier that the inundation of the Neck and the breaking of the Arm were natural events, possibly caused by a natural sinking of the land. What became of Valyria is well-known, and in the Iron Islands, the castle of Pyke sits on stacks of stone that were once part of the greater island before segments of it crumbled into the sea.

 

If they can do all that then launching a handful of trees off the surface of the Earth is easy.

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18 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that Valyrians raided Hardhome to gain slaves, but some local skinchangers tried to take over their dragons. Those wargs could not control dragons instead they "only" broke connection between dragons and riders and made those dragons homicidal or dragons just tried to kill anybody including all Valyrians.

So I think that most battles between skinchanger and dragonlord end mutual suicide by mad dragon including massive collateral damage.

Holy cow--not many bold enough to pit skinchanges against dragonlords.   It's great, but explain the giant fire that was seen from so far away. 

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know man, this is a lot more fun than I expected to have this late in my forum experience.   Some folks have made a convincing argument that those giant bat skeletons in BR's cave are actually dragons!   I'm trying very hard to do this without my reference materials so forgive me if I mis speak here.   Dragons are theorized to be a hybrid of Wyverns and Wyrms and magic.   I believe Wyrms are the creatures who don't fly but tunnel???   I'm sorry, this is just really fun and the thoughts are flooding me faster than I can get them to type.   Let's suppose those giant bats are Wyvern or dragons--and let's suppose those shrieks in the caves at Hardhome are Wyrms.    I think it's safe to assume the caves north of the wall are all associated if not precisely connected.  Bring it home, brother, what does it mean? 

I'm totally down with the Wyrm idea.

I have 2 alternate/additional ideas.

So they bred dragons through Wyrm hybrids etc. Could they have been experimenting with some new variation of creature Wyrm/Wyvern/Dragon hybrid? Did whatever they were trying to create get out of hand so they had to do some containment and wipe the whole place out? IDK

Second idea was actually Harpies. So Valyria defeated Ghis. Is it possible that Harpies escaped and fled to where they thought the Dragons would be least effective against them but still had a source of food, the land of the cold. Did the Valyrians hunt for those Harpies until they tracked them down to beyond the wall? Madness and bollocks tinfoil probably but so much fun to discuss. Could a bat not be as similar to a Harpy as a Dragon? To me it isn't that outrageous.

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