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Hardhome theories?


Stormking902

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1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

So I have been looking for other things that happened 600 years ago - there is quite a bit. Braavos was founded 400BC-1436BC. If we go with 400BC that is rougly 700 years ago. Is it possible that another group of slaves fled to Hardhome and tried to set up shop, but unlike Braavos it got discovered?

Also the commanders of the Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war, killing the LC with the Stark of Winterfell having to step in. Not sure how this would interact and may not be pertinent.

 

Ha!   I wonder if anyone has ever put a potential link between Braavos and Hardhome before?  Sweet!  I found some interesting amounts of time while searching out my beloved VS swords.   Hardhome, The Doom, The Conquest and the rest all falls into VS swords lore.  It seems to me while listing these few things that Daenys the Dreamer had her dream of the Doom about half the time between the 2 events.  Could she have known something about Hardhome and actually identified signs of another cataclysm in Valyria?   Daenys has her dreams right around the same time that the VS swords begin to appear in Westeros--500 years back.   Sword geek just made this connection so my mind is wandering.   

Get down with your bad self--you are doing good research hear.  

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30 minutes ago, Ckram said:

 I don't remember this being established by any source. Do you have a quote to support that?

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Whether the green men still survive on their isle is not clear although there is the occasional account of some foolhardy young riverlord taking a boat to the isle and catching sight of them before winds rise up or a flock of ravens drives him away.

 

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16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Indeed!   That's one I never considered before.   Try this on:  the caves of Hardhome are a base for WW, but different WW?  This would likely be a very recent development--no more than the years since the cataclysm.  What a neat idea.  

Let's try this also...The Doom effectively destroyed the power of Valrian fire magic.  Still dragons are said to have been seen in Westeros long before the Valyrians were even er, established.  It's been a while since I studied the Doom and cataclysm, please forgive me if my time spans are incorrect.   The Cataclysm at Hardhome occurred 200 years prior to the Doom, or 600 years back.   Valyria was at the height of its power but named Valyrian Steel swords aren't yet present in Westeros (Longclaw and Heartsbane only go back 500 years and they are the oldest I know of).  Given the great power (and presumable wealth) of the noble houses, indeed, royal houses of Westeros at the time isn't this just the strangest thing considering all the legendary swords (10, I think) that did appear in the 200 years between the Cataclysm and The Doom? 

I can't help but muse that something was going on at Hardhome that negated the need for VS in Westeros.   What could that be?  Dragonsteel, perhaps?   

Lady forlorn is mentioned in the world book section detailing the andals arrival in Westeros, the last Bronze King, Robar Royce slew Qyle Corbray, Andal king of the fingers and took Lady Forlorn from him, he went on to defeat several other Andal Kings and Lords before being slain himself by in the battle beneath the giants lance by the Andal forces of Artys Arryn.

*edit* No exact dates are given for these events throughout that entire section, in fact I just re read it make sure I was right and it even avoids vague mentions of dates/times such as "thousands of years ago." Given this(and the fact that I don't want to derail this thread into a timeline discussion) I'm going to avoid giving an exact date for this but if this tale is to be believed than at least one Valryian sword has been in Westeros for a least one if not several thousand years.

I'm also fairly certain that Valyrain Steel and dragon steel are the same thing. And by this I mean simply that the Valyrians did not invent Valyian steel, they perhaps rediscovered and than renamed it, or maybe dragon steel is what the Valyrains themselves referred to it as, disnt make much sense for them to call it Valyrain steel. Long story short, I think Valyrain steel is just what it is called in the modern vernacular of the common tongue.

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14 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that Valyrians raided Hardhome to gain slaves, but some local skinchangers tried to take over their dragons. Those wargs could not control dragons instead they "only" broke connection between dragons and riders and made those dragons homicidal or dragons just tried to kill anybody including all Valyrians.

So I think that most battles between skinchanger and dragonlord end mutual suicide by mad dragon including massive collateral damage.

I like this idea..I think I agree...seems simple and neat while also providing an explanation for the dragon lords avoiding direct colonization of Westeros for so long, and it even makes sense that the targaryens could have forgotten this knowledge over the centuries 

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On 9/21/2018 at 7:31 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

So I have been looking for other things that happened 600 years ago - there is quite a bit. Braavos was founded 400BC-1436BC. If we go with 400BC that is rougly 700 years ago. Is it possible that another group of slaves fled to Hardhome and tried to set up shop, but unlike Braavos it got discovered?

Also the commanders of the Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war, killing the LC with the Stark of Winterfell having to step in. Not sure how this would interact and may not be pertinent.

You're getting close to something that has dawned on me recently...

As far as we can date it, this destruction of Hardhome seems to have occurred somewhere between the Unmasking of Uthero, and the eventual discovery of the real location of Braavos by the wider world. I think the Valyrians discovered Hardhome, assumed it was Braavos and went all Dragonstyle Dresden on it.

By which time the Braavosi twigged that instead of being satisfied with having their lost ships paid for, the Freehold was still nurturing a grudge. Somewhere along there the Braavosi also see what happens to the Rhoynar, and decide they can't run forever, and there's only one solution to a problem like Valyria. This then leads into some nice tinfoil about Faceless Men and the Doom... not a 'hit', but an act of war.

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15 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Lady forlorn is mentioned in the world book section detailing the andals arrival in Westeros, the last Bronze King, Robar Royce slew Qyle Corbray, Andal king of the fingers and took Lady Forlorn from him, he went on to defeat several other Andal Kings and Lords before being slain himself by in the battle beneath the giants lance by the Andal forces of Artys Arryn.

*edit* No exact dates are given for these events throughout that entire section, in fact I just re read it make sure I was right and it even avoids vague mentions of dates/times such as "thousands of years ago." Given this(and the fact that I don't want to derail this thread into a timeline discussion) I'm going to avoid giving an exact date for this but if this tale is to be believed than at least one Valryian sword has been in Westeros for a least one if not several thousand years.

I'm also fairly certain that Valyrain Steel and dragon steel are the same thing. And by this I mean simply that the Valyrians did not invent Valyian steel, they perhaps rediscovered and than renamed it, or maybe dragon steel is what the Valyrains themselves referred to it as, disnt make much sense for them to call it Valyrain steel. Long story short, I think Valyrain steel is just what it is called in the modern vernacular of the common tongue.

Hey Back door Hodor, how the heck are you?   Its really good to discuss stuff with you again.   I was so totally hoping someone would pick up on the THE SWORDS in all this because there is something, I believe to be the Hardhome Cataclysm, that caused the NEED for Valyrian Steel in Westeros.  Every thing in your 1st 2 paragraphs is 100% correct if all you do is read the books.   As once caused me to abandon my own swords topic, we are often confronted with extraneous sources (video games, SSMs, art work, interviews on Aljazeera, and GADS, History and Lore from the GOT dvds) for complete information.  Yes, Dawn, Lady Forlorn and Ice were around way back in the day and note that LF and ICE are probably also the LAST VS swords to reach Westeros before the Doom of Valyria.   Now let's get sticky.  

Google search Elio Garcia and Lady Forlorn.   You will no doubt be given the opportunity to read his statement regarding the mistake of identifying Lady Forlorn as VS in the World Book Andals entries.   Now then, I recently had the opportunity to elicit a statement from some guy named Ran about the Valyrian Steelness of Lyn Corbray's Lady Forlorn.   He assured me it is Valyrian Steel.   Let's unstick ourselves from this murk and mire.  

Elio Ran Garcia is after all, one of the authors of AWOIAF.   His word is golden in my book.   Believe me, I am as frustrated as you are.  All we can do is talk to each other and hope for good intel from Google searches.   

That said I do understand your reasoning behind your conclusion.  It's rational and reasonable from beginning to end.   I can't argue that Valyrian Steel is not dragonsteel.   There is no proof in either direction.   Still I hope my little time line of VS sword appearances between the Cataclysm and Doom may persuade you to consider that dragonsteel may be closer to Dawn than Lady Forlorn.   

Awesome conversation, man.  

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

You're getting close to something that has dawned on me recently...

As far as we can date it, this destruction of Hardhome seems to have occurred somewhere between the Unmasking of Uthero, and the eventual discovery of the real location of Braavos by the wider world. I think the Valyrians discovered Hardhome, assumed it was Braavos and went all Dragonstyle Dresden on it.

By which time the Braavosi twigged that instead of being satisfied with having their lost ships paid for, the Freehold was still nurturing a grudge. Somewhere along there the Braavosi also see what happens to the Rhoynar, and decide they can't run forever, and there's only one solution to a problem like Valyria. This then leads into some nice tinfoil about Faceless Men and the Doom... not a 'hit', but an act of war.

Another winner, Rufus!  I really dig it when new and imaginative stuff happens.   This is exactly why I joined this book club.   

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Loving some of these ideas, particularly the skinchangers vs Valyrians, or the Valyrians thinking it was Braavos!

For myself, I had figured the Wildlings had torched the place because it had been taken over by Other-worshippers.  The screechers in the caves were atavistic refugees!  Not even a speculation, just a wandering thought when I first read it, lol.  Wouldn't explain ash still falling months later (somebody said that above).  Actually though, nothing except a volcano really explains ash falling six months later - it would have to remain active for a while for this result, wouldn't it?

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey Back door Hodor, how the heck are you?   Its really good to discuss stuff with you again.   I was so totally hoping someone would pick up on the THE SWORDS in all this because there is something, I believe to be the Hardhome Cataclysm, that caused the NEED for Valyrian Steel in Westeros.  Every thing in your 1st 2 paragraphs is 100% correct if all you do is read the books.   As once caused me to abandon my own swords topic, we are often confronted with extraneous sources (video games, SSMs, art work, interviews on Aljazeera, and GADS, History and Lore from the GOT dvds) for complete information.  Yes, Dawn, Lady Forlorn and Ice were around way back in the day and note that LF and ICE are probably also the LAST VS swords to reach Westeros before the Doom of Valyria.   Now let's get sticky.  

Google search Elio Garcia and Lady Forlorn.   You will no doubt be given the opportunity to read his statement regarding the mistake of identifying Lady Forlorn as VS in the World Book Andals entries.   Now then, I recently had the opportunity to elicit a statement from some guy named Ran about the Valyrian Steelness of Lyn Corbray's Lady Forlorn.   He assured me it is Valyrian Steel.   Let's unstick ourselves from this murk and mire.  

Elio Ran Garcia is after all, one of the authors of AWOIAF.   His word is golden in my book.   Believe me, I am as frustrated as you are.  All we can do is talk to each other and hope for good intel from Google searches.   

That said I do understand your reasoning behind your conclusion.  It's rational and reasonable from beginning to end.   I can't argue that Valyrian Steel is not dragonsteel.   There is no proof in either direction.   Still I hope my little time line of VS sword appearances between the Cataclysm and Doom may persuade you to consider that dragonsteel may be closer to Dawn than Lady Forlorn.   

Awesome conversation, man.  

Another winner, Rufus!  I really dig it when new and imaginative stuff happens.   This is exactly why I joined this book club.   

Good to talk to you again Curled Finger.

Gonna reply to you and the stuff you quoted from rufus.....

I was unaware of Elio claiming The Lady should not have been in that section, but I also agree with you in accepting his word so if that is the case I suppose we do have to chalk that one up to a mistake, which as you said, would put the reach swords in Westeros before the lady, which means I have no Fucking idea when VS first came to westeros... 

That being said I stand by my assertion that the Valyrains did not call the substance they made(whether they invented it or not, which could go either way/also may not matter tbh) Valryian Steel. So Dragon Steel is the true name if the metal, whether from Valryia or another source. Either explanation fits in my opinion.

Edit* I also believe Dawn is something different 

 

@Rufus Snow

Truly never considered this option but I like it to be honest, as it fits with the typical response the Dragonlords had to those who opposes them...Fire and Blood

 

 

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On 9/22/2018 at 2:58 AM, Back door hodor said:

I like this idea..I think I agree...seems simple and neat while also providing an explanation for the dragon lords avoiding direct colonization of Westeros for so long, and it even makes sense that the targaryens could have forgotten this knowledge over the centuries 

I don't think their empire had expanded enough to justify coming to Westeros, but mainly I think the weirwood used their telepathic powers to prevent Valyrians from invading Westeros. 

There is a long history of groups of people being inspired to go places because they received visions or dreams telling them where to go:

Daenys got a vision to leave Valyria 12 years in advance of the Doom. "Daenys, known forever afterward as Daenys the Dreamer, had foreseen the destruction of Valyria by fire.

Escaped Valyrian slaves got a vision of where to escape to: "Legend says that the moonsingers prophesied that the fleet must travel far north to a forlorn corner of Essos"

"Hugor of the Hill received his vision of the bounty that would one day belong to the Andals. . .. it is said that the Seven themselves walked among their people in the hills of Andalos, and it was they who crowned Hugor of the Hill and promised him and his descendants great kingdoms in a foreign land."

And Daenerys received dreams from Quaithe cryptically telling her where to go.

Melisandre and Stannis received visions to go north.  "R'hllor permits his faithful servants to glimpse the future in flames . . . I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide." "And Stannis had seen a vision in the flames, a ring of torches in the snow with terror all around."  (Ring of torches could be Ring of Weirwood trees.)

Mother Mole had a vision: "Supposedly she made her home in a burrow beneath a hollow tree. Whatever the truth of that, she had a vision of a fleet of ships arriving to carry the free folk to safety across the narrow sea."  Had a vision to take people to the accursed Hardhome, presumably into a trap.

Now recall that Aegon landed just as Harrenhal was being finished.  "Harrenhal, the vast fortress that King Harren the Black had raised beside the waters of Gods Eye. . . Weirwoods that had stood three thousand years were cut down for beams and rafters.  .  . And when at last Harrenhal stood complete, on the very day King Harren took up residence, Aegon the Conqueror had come ashore at King's Landing."  I think that is more than just coincidence.  I think Harrenhal posed a real threat to the main weirwood grove on the Isle of Faces and the weirwoods called in the Targaryens through a dream vision in order to destroy Harren

"Arya stared at the face carved into its trunk. It was a terrible face, its mouth twisted, its eyes flaring and full of hate. Is that what a god looked like? Could gods be hurt, the same as people?"

"And though his vision of a united Westeros proved harder to realize than Aegon might have believed—not to mention far costlier—it was a vision that shaped the course of history for hundreds of years to come."   That could just be suggestive language, or it could be that he really did get a dream vision telling him to invade Westeros.

(and the curse of Harrenhal is the CoTF engaging in guerilla warfare tactics to chase people away from the castle)

 

So if the weirwood can suggest to people where to go, they can suggest where not to go also, that may be one of the ways they protect their Secret Cities.  One of the only hints I have found though is when Bran says "No one visits the Isle of Faces," objected Bran. "That's where the green men live."  It could be that beliefs that certain places are cursed or haunted could be the same kind of thing, just a way to prevent people from coming there.

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Stick with me til the end, this is a little convoluted.  I was searching the phrase "secret city" found this

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Nefer, chief city of the kingdom of N'ghai , hemmed in by towering chalk cliffs and perpetually shrouded in fog. When seen from the harbor, Nefer appears to be no more than a small town, but it is said that nine-tenths of the city is beneath the ground. For that reason, travelers call Nefer the Secret City. By any name, the city enjoys a sinister reputation as a haunt of necromancers and torturers.

Shrouded in fog, and called "SecretCity," moonsingers are highly revered, that is very similar to Braavos.   There are likely extensive underground levels under the House of Black and White in Braavos.  Also, called Nefer as in nefarious: sinful, villainous, criminal, wicked.

N'ghai is a Lovecraft reference, N'gai or Ngh'aaa is part of a line from The Dunwich Horror.   It is mentioned with Yog-Sothoth

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again."  He can also resurrect the dead.

 Yog-Sothoth is the weirwood.

Who is associated with Secret Cities/towns?  The CoTF, Braavos, Nefer, and crannogmen to a lesser degree (Greywater Watch and "hidden floating islands")

Neferion was presumably from Nefer.  Another name for Azor Ahai, the Last Hero, who sought the help of the CoTF in their secret towns and then wielded the Flaming Red Sword of Heroes to end the Long Night.  The Last Hero was a greenseer that harnessed the power of the weirwood network to end the Long Night.

This is close to LmL's theory, but if the Red Sword/burning sword/Lightbringer is the Red Comet and/or a weirwood tree that will be telepathically steered to collide with the moon-sized spacestation that was in tidally locked orbit causing a world-wide eclipse. 

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"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

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Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon,

Azor Ahai the greenseer wargs the Red comet and crashes it into the "moon."

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Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

The red sword is compared to a celestial object.

Bran went north with his companions seeking the help of the children, is going to be a very powerful greenseer, has blue eyes, and casts no shadow because he is underground.

 

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Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

Red Comet is Lightbringer.

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the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail

Woman with monkey tail is the Red Comet that ended the eclipse.

 

Now, if the Red Comet is a massive weirwood and that explains why magic returned when the comet showed up.  The weirwoods have to have some way of getting into space, that method is the tree launching that I proposed.

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7 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

There are not many things other than a volcano that would cause ash for 6 months. Are there? Dragonfire or magic? I could see Dragonfire and magic being destructive but not the long after effects.

Nobody mentions a volcano in the description of Hardhome, volcanoes are usually pretty noticeable, like the Mother of Mountains, they are always talking about that mountain.  They said "hell swallowed" Hardhome, a hole just appeared in the ground overnight, and it was accompanied by a very bright explosion, that looked like the sun was rising in the NorthRising, as in something left the surface of the Earth.  The explosion launched many bodies into the surrounding waters.  If it had been a volcano, the whole town would have been buried in ash and/or lava, like Pompeii, and they would have mentioned a volcano and the huge ash column that was there for days afterwards.  Look up videos of volcanoes erupting, the violent ones are almost always very ashy with very little light.

Other times that the phrases "mouth of hell"  or "earth swallowed" are used:

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A wall of red-hot steel, blazing wood, and swirling green flame stretched before him. The mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell. . .

[drogon] When his mouth opened, she could see bits of broken bone and charred flesh between his black teeth. His eyes were molten. I am looking into hell,

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[valyria] Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns.

[breaking of dorne] Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up.

[golden empire] quaking of the earth so violent as to swallow entire cities,

 

8 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Could the Fist of the First Men be some sort of volcanic rock formation

There is nothing in its description that would indicate that it is volcanic

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The hill jutted above the dense tangle of forest, rising solitary and sudden, its windswept heights visible from miles off. The wildlings called it the Fist of the First Men, rangers said. It did look like a fist, Jon Snow thought, punching up through earth and wood, its bare brown slopes knuckled with stone.

It was said that the Fist had been a ringfort of the First Men in the Dawn Age.

Reminds me of this

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The crofter's village stood between two lakes, the larger dotted with small wooded islands that punched up through the ice like the frozen fists of some drowned giant. From one such island rose a weirwood gnarled and ancient,

I think the land itself is being portrayed as a weapon being wielded by the weirwood.  The Giant's Lance would fit this description too. 

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Here are the things that are uncannily repetitious.

'a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses and blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pock the great cliff that looms above the settlement, a cliff where no living man or woman could be found'

You guys should guess correctly the name of the town next to the Dry Deep: Bonetown.

It is also interesting that the word 'shrieks' is used to describe the echoes in Hardhome; the land directly beyond the wall is called the 'Land of Shrykes'.

 

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On 9/21/2018 at 1:31 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

So I have been looking for other things that happened 600 years ago - there is quite a bit. Braavos was founded 400BC-1436BC. If we go with 400BC that is rougly 700 years ago. Is it possible that another group of slaves fled to Hardhome and tried to set up shop, but unlike Braavos it got discovered?

On 9/22/2018 at 1:55 PM, Rufus Snow said:

You're getting close to something that has dawned on me recently...

As far as we can date it, this destruction of Hardhome seems to have occurred somewhere between the Unmasking of Uthero, and the eventual discovery of the real location of Braavos by the wider world. I think the Valyrians discovered Hardhome, assumed it was Braavos and went all Dragonstyle Dresden on it.

Except that we are told that 111 years after the slaves escaped, Braavos began diplomatic relations with Valyria, and the Valyrians said they couldn't care less about a few escaped slaves.

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Sealord Uthero Zalyne put an end to that secrecy, sending forth his ships to every corner of the world to proclaim the existence and location of Braavos, and invite men of all nations to celebrate the 111th festival of the city's founding. By that time all of the original escaped slaves were dead, along with all of their former masters. Even so, Uthero had sent envoys from the Iron Bank to Valyria several years prior, to clear the way for what became known as the Uncloaking or the Unmasking of Uthero. The dragonlords proved to have little interest in the descendants of slaves who had escaped a century before, and the Iron Bank paid handsome settlements to the grandchildren of the men whose ships the founders had seized and sailed away (whilst refusing to pay for the value of the slaves themselves).

Valyria was the most advanced civilization on the planet at the time, why would they confuse a wildling fishing village with their escaped slaves?  And why are they traveling to northern Westeros 3000 miles on dragonback just to find a few boatloads of escaped slaves that were lost near Sothoryos a hundred years ago?  And the loss of a few boats out of the "large convoy of slave ships" would probably not be common knowledge.  And why would they not just recapture them?  Why dragonfire-bomb them instead? 

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9 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Except that we are told that 111 years after the slaves escaped, Braavos began diplomatic relations with Valyria, and the Valyrians said they couldn't care less about a few escaped slaves.

Valyria was the most advanced civilization on the planet at the time, why would they confuse a wildling fishing village with their escaped slaves?  And why are they traveling to northern Westeros 3000 miles on dragonback just to find a few boatloads of escaped slaves that were lost near Sothoryos a hundred years ago?  And the loss of a few boats out of the "large convoy of slave ships" would probably not be common knowledge.  And why would they not just recapture them?  Why dragonfire-bomb them instead? 

You have a point about it being odd for Valyria to go after such a small settlement. I can only think of two potential reasons. One, the Faceless Men were known to be there. The Faceless Men are/were potentially a big threat to Valyria. Second, Sothoryos was the location of the vile experiments of mating beast and man, could the populace at Hardhome have had some knowledge of these things or perhaps some of the creatures that were born of the experiments were present there?

Could the people at Hardhome have been escaped criminals from Gogossos? The worst of the worst were sent there.

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