Hardhome theories?

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

Tyroshi Slavers with the aid of a valyrian dragon rider who was in Tyrosh. Tyroshi slavers are renouned for there greed and aggressiveness and take wildings already in a song of ice and fire so I see no reason why they wouldn’t take hardhome. The females could be bed slaves perhaps but some of the wilding males would make fine pit fighters. Easy money for the slavers and dragon rider if you ask me. Just my opinion though.

[chrisdaw]

There is no mystery concerning Hardhome. Hardhome simply exploded.

[LindsayLohan]

Crackpot:  The caves have natural hot springs, as the Wildlings went full Pompeii and built their city on an active volcano.  It's a deep-water harbor with abundant natural resources, and one of the few places with appropriate shelter from the cold in Winter.  The volcano erupted or caused an Erfquake, killing errbody.  It's why the White Walkers kill everyone in Hardhome, they hate the idea of a place (caves with natural hot springs) where the climate is not in their favor. 

[Rufus Snow]

On 10/2/2018 at 6:05 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

On 9/22/2018 at 7:55 PM, Rufus Snow said:

You're getting close to something that has dawned on me recently...

As far as we can date it, this destruction of Hardhome seems to have occurred somewhere between the Unmasking of Uthero, and the eventual discovery of the real location of Braavos by the wider world. I think the Valyrians discovered Hardhome, assumed it was Braavos and went all Dragonstyle Dresden on it.

Except that we are told that 111 years after the slaves escaped, Braavos began diplomatic relations with Valyria, and the Valyrians said they couldn't care less about a few escaped slaves.

Oh, 'the Valyrians said' so we must believe them? The huge continent-spanning empire recently humiliated by a bunch of escaping slaves decides to shrug its shoulders and decide there's no need to give a massive lesson to the next bunch of slaves who might have similar ideas?

You think this is incredible, and then posit inter-planetary flying trees???????

[Moiraine Sedai]

Hardhome's climate is not ideal for the dragons and their Valyrian humans.  It was not an outpost of theirs. 

A fallen meteor could explain the fires to burn that long and that bright. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Oh, 'the Valyrians said' so we must believe them? The huge continent-spanning empire recently humiliated by a bunch of escaping slaves decides to shrug its shoulders and decide there's no need to give a massive lesson to the next bunch of slaves who might have similar ideas?

You think this is incredible, and then posit inter-planetary flying trees???????

What is the evidence the Valyrians were humiliated?  All the world book says is:

Quote

Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos, who rose in a bloody rebellion, seized control of the ships on which they were being transported, and fled to "the far ends of the earth" to escape their erstwhile masters. Knowing they would be hunted, the slaves turned away from their intended destination and sailed north instead of south, seeking a refuge as far from Valyria and her vengeance as could be found.

Slave rebellions were quite common in human history, wikipedia cites 485 documented slave ship rebellions.  Through Valyria's 5000 year empire they would have had thousands of minor slave rebellions.  I think the Valyrians would just think it was the cost of doing business to lose some slaves occasionally, and they wouldn't chase them to the ends of the Earth to make an example out of them.  But more importantly, for it to be a warning to other slaves it would need to be widely made public what happened. since Hardhome is shrouded in mystery, that doesn't seem likely.  Now the Masters of Meereen crucifying the slaves, that was a warning (and a Spartacus reference).

Also, why should we believe the Braavosi account of their founding?  They are most likely demonizing the Valyrians and making themselves sound heroic.  The Kindly Man doesn't mention a heroic slave rebellion to Arya, he says

Quote

"The Nine Free Cities are the daughters of Valyria that was," the kindly man taught her, "but Braavos is the bastard child who ran away from home. We are a mongrel folk, the sons of slaves and whores and thieves. Our forebears came from half a hundred lands to this place of refuge, to escape the dragonlords who had enslaved them.

He just makes them sound like run-of-the-mill runaway slaves.  I think the Braavosi story of their heroic escape from slavery is a "founding myth"--written to parallel the biblical story of Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt, there is a nugget of truth in that they were enslaved somewhere at some point, but the rest of the story could just be totally fabricated. 

 

 

With regards to the weirwood being an interstellar alien tree, that is practically canon at this point, and it wasn't my idea.  I first heard about it from LmL, who thinks the Red Comet is a weirwood, and that the Gods Eye is an impact crater.  I just connected those two dots, therefore the weirwood is an alien, and the Isle of Faces is the seat of its power. 

Preston Jacobs thinks the red comet is a volcryn from one of George's other stories, Nightflyers, in which the volcryn was a psionic-powered space creature.  ("volucrine" means "of or pertaining to birds")

Then there is George's Greywater Station fungus, which is most likely extraterrestrial fungus that could skin-change animals and humans, send dreams, and make people paranoid. 

Lovecraft's Black Goat of the Woods was an alien that required human sacrifice, and in the Black Goat spinoff stories he is clearly depicted as a weirwood. 

And one of  Lovecraft's favorite stories was Blackwood's The Willows (1907), which features alien trees that feed on humans and exist outside of our conception of time, and are powered by negative psychic energy (one of the ways to resist the Willows is by not thinking any scary thoughts).  (also Bloodraven's mom was a Blackwood, and Bloodraven very closely parallel Odin, and Odin's weapon was a magical spear Gungnir "swaying one", that never missed its target)

Check out Orson Scot Card's pequeninos for their similarities to the CoTF and the weirwood, they are aliens.

Finally, just listened to Lovecraft's Color out of Space again today, it features a meteor that lands on Earth containing an alien that makes people go insane, turns people grey (think greyscale, greywater watch, the Grey King), and makes the trees move without wind, and in the end launches itself back into space.

Then there is Yggdrasil (tree of terror), the Norse World Tree, which is a magical sentient tree that controls human destiny and literally connects different worlds, and that story is thousands of years old.

So the interstellar tree idea goes way back and its a classic.

 

Just found this line where Gendry calls the Red Comet a Red Sword. 

Quote

The comet was splendid and scary all at once. "The Red Sword," the Bull named it; he claimed it looked like a sword, the blade still red-hot from the forge

The Red Sword of Heroes is the Red Comet.  Also, "Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star" Heart as in heart tree as in weirwood?  The weirwood is a fallen star. 

One of the other names of the comet is Mormont's Torch, mormonta means "wormwood" in Irish, wormwood which is the name of a comet from the bible that is prophesied to land on Earth and poison the waters and kill "many people"  Also, the comet is called la'anah, (Lyana?) in Hebrew, which means "curse"  Also, the Ukrainian word for "wormwood" is "chornobyl", further implying the weirwood explosive disaster.

[White Ravens]

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

With regards to the weirwood being an interstellar alien tree, that is practically canon at this point, and it wasn't my idea.  I first heard about it from LmL, who thinks the Red Comet is a weirwood, and that the Gods Eye is an impact crater.  I just connected those two dots, therefore the weirwood is an alien, and the Isle of Faces is the seat of its power. 

Preston Jacobs thinks the red comet is a volcryn from one of George's other stories, Nightflyers, in which the volcryn was a psionic-powered space creature.  ("volucrine" means "of or pertaining to birds")

Then there is George's Greywater Station fungus, which is most likely extraterrestrial fungus that could skin-change animals and humans, send dreams, and make people paranoid. 

Lovecraft's Black Goat of the Woods was an alien that required human sacrifice, and in the Black Goat spinoff stories he is clearly depicted as a weirwood. 

And one of  Lovecraft's favorite stories was Blackwood's The Willows (1907), which features alien trees that feed on humans and exist outside of our conception of time, and are powered by negative psychic energy (one of the ways to resist the Willows is by not thinking any scary thoughts).  (also Bloodraven's mom was a Blackwood, and Bloodraven very closely parallel Odin, and Odin's weapon was a magical spear Gungnir "swaying one", that never missed its target)

Check out Orson Scot Card's pequeninos for their similarities to the CoTF and the weirwood, they are aliens.

Finally, just listened to Lovecraft's Color out of Space again today, it features a meteor that lands on Earth containing an alien that makes people go insane, turns people grey (think greyscale, greywater watch, the Grey King), and makes the trees move without wind, and in the end launches itself back into space.

Then there is Yggdrasil (tree of terror), the Norse World Tree, which is a magical sentient tree that controls human destiny and literally connects different worlds, and that story is thousands of years old.

So the interstellar tree idea goes way back and its a classic.

 

Just found this line where Gendry calls the Red Comet a Red Sword. 

The Red Sword of Heroes is the Red Comet.  Also, "Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star" Heart as in heart tree as in weirwood?  The weirwood is a fallen star. 

One of the other names of the comet is Mormont's Torch, mormonta means "wormwood" in Irish, wormwood which is the name of a comet from the bible that is prophesied to land on Earth and poison the waters and kill "many people"  Also, the comet is called la'anah, (Lyana?) in Hebrew, which means "curse"  Also, the Ukrainian word for "wormwood" is "chornobyl", further implying the weirwood explosive disaster.

I do not think canon means what you think it means.   Theories from LML and Preston Jacobs do not canon make. 

Weirwood being an interstellar alien tree?  That is speculation on a grand level, which is kind of the opposite of canon. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

21 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

I do not think canon means what you think it means.   Theories from LML and Preston Jacobs do not canon make. 

Weirwood being an interstellar alien tree?  That is speculation on a grand level, which is kind of the opposite of canon. 

That was tongue in cheek when I said it was canon. 

Quote

He raced across the godswood, taking the long way around to avoid the pool where the heart tree grew. The heart tree had always frightened him; trees ought not have eyes, Bran thought, or leaves that looked like hands. . . .

the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places . . .

In their midst was a pale stranger; a slender young weirwood . . .

In the darkness all the gods were strangers . . .

The Stranger's face was the face of death.

The Stranger comes for all of us, but we need not rush into his arms.

That's the Stranger coming, Penny. The Black Goat, the Pale Child, Him of Many Faces, call him what you will. That's death."

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death.

And what about the weirwood with his brother's face, that smelled of death and darkness?

hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh

It is claimed that they still offer human sacrifice to their weirwoods, lure passing ships to destruction with false lights, and feed upon the flesh of men during winter.

Stranger is a wanderer from far places, the planets are wanderers (greek planetes), the weirwood and all gods are also strangers, i.e., wanderers from far places, i.e., not from Earth.  And trees ought not to have eyes and bloody hands and they are frightening.  Him of many faces is the weirwood, the Black Goat, the god of death, who feeds on human flesh.

[Moiraine Sedai]

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

I do not think canon means what you think it means.   Theories from LML and Preston Jacobs do not canon make. 

Weirwood being an interstellar alien tree?  That is speculation on a grand level, which is kind of the opposite of canon. 

It is an entertaining theory and those two gents can spin them as well as anybody.  That's the secret to a successful YouTube program.  Don't you know? 

 

[kissdbyfire]

Never mind

[Wolf's Bane]

Hardhome must have served as one of the places of safety for the people during the long winter.  It had to have a heat source.  Which can mean a hot spring inside.  If it is located in an area of high tectonic activity.  You get the idea.  

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Never mind

come on, now I want to know what you wrote.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, By Odin's Beard said:

come on, now I want to know what you wrote.

I had asked how on earth

 

Just now, By Odin's Beard said:

With regards to the weirwood being an interstellar alien tree, that is practically canon at this point

Could the above be "practically canon". Then I saw you said you were being cheeky, so you had already replied. 

[Bobity.]

The Hardhome incident occurred at around the same time as when the Varlyians had settled down at Dragonstone.  South of the Wall at that time all communities were under a banner of the seven kingdoms and if any were to be attacked for dragged away (Iron Born) the local king would respond in some way, and probably burn in the process.  North of the Wall its slaving without consequence, Free Folk don't kneel to kings, but kings can marshal resources to defend so the Wildlings remain vulnerable in their independence.   Why were the Valyrians so reluctant to use their dragons on Westerosi proper?  I don't know....but slavers gotta slave, Wildlings are easy pickings and Hardhome is where you can find a bunch of them.

 

[Rufus Snow]

On 10/5/2018 at 3:47 PM, By Odin's Beard said:

On 10/5/2018 at 12:18 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Oh, 'the Valyrians said' so we must believe them? The huge continent-spanning empire recently humiliated by a bunch of escaping slaves decides to shrug its shoulders and decide there's no need to give a massive lesson to the next bunch of slaves who might have similar ideas?

You think this is incredible, and then posit inter-planetary flying trees???????

What is the evidence the Valyrians were humiliated?  All the world book says is:

Quote

Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos, who rose in a bloody rebellion, seized control of the ships on which they were being transported, and fled to "the far ends of the earth" to escape their erstwhile masters. Knowing they would be hunted, the slaves turned away from their intended destination and sailed north instead of south, seeking a refuge as far from Valyria and her vengeance as could be found.

Slave rebellions were quite common in human history, wikipedia cites 485 documented slave ship rebellions.  Through Valyria's 5000 year empire they would have had thousands of minor slave rebellions.  I think the Valyrians would just think it was the cost of doing business to lose some slaves occasionally, and they wouldn't chase them to the ends of the Earth to make an example out of them.  But more importantly, for it to be a warning to other slaves it would need to be widely made public what happened. since Hardhome is shrouded in mystery, that doesn't seem likely.  Now the Masters of Meereen crucifying the slaves, that was a warning (and a Spartacus reference).

Also, why should we believe the Braavosi account of their founding?  They are most likely demonizing the Valyrians and making themselves sound heroic.  The Kindly Man doesn't mention a heroic slave rebellion to Arya, he says

Quote

"The Nine Free Cities are the daughters of Valyria that was," the kindly man taught her, "but Braavos is the bastard child who ran away from home. We are a mongrel folk, the sons of slaves and whores and thieves. Our forebears came from half a hundred lands to this place of refuge, to escape the dragonlords who had enslaved them.

He just makes them sound like run-of-the-mill runaway slaves.  I think the Braavosi story of their heroic escape from slavery is a "founding myth"--written to parallel the biblical story of Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt, there is a nugget of truth in that they were enslaved somewhere at some point, but the rest of the story could just be totally fabricated. 

Aagh, big chunk of quote.. getting a bit unwieldy, but I'll try to stay organised....

I think an imperial power losing the entire wherewithal for a whole new colony is pretty humiliating, whether they chose to admit it or not. YMMV. I also disagree that the Valyrians would just blow off the losses as well. They ran a slave economy, losing a whole flat-pack-colony's worth of slaves is a thing that needs dealing with, and it seems those escaped slaves thought the same: " Knowing they would be hunted, the slaves turned away from their intended destination and sailed north instead of south, seeking a refuge as far from Valyria and her vengeance as could be found." My point here is that this rebellion was more than just losing a few slaves, it kiboshed a whole new colony. Getting paid for the ships a century later is more of an insult than a settlement, but again, IMHO & YMMV.

There's only the one reason to accept the Braavosi account of their own founding - and that is because it's the only one we have, and unlike the Israelites leaving Egypt, it is firmly within the frame of recent history.

Anyway, all this is now by the by, as I've actually found the weakness in my own idea quite independently.... you may recall I posited that the Hardholm event may have been a mistaken identification as Braavos. But that depended on an error in my recollection of events: for some reason I had convinced myself that the Unmasking only proclaimed the existence of Braavos, but not its location. A fresh reread of the World Book showed that was wrong, and that the location was also revealed - so if Hardholm happened after the Unmasking, it CANNOT have been mistaken identity, because it was by then known where Braavos was. I haven't had time to go back over my working-out, so I'm not sure what I believe right now

 

When it comes to the interplanetary tree idea, I see all the homages that revolve around it, but I am expecting something different to emerge for this story. I don't see evidence for GRRM being a plagiarist (even a self-plagiarist), even when he draws on real history and real events he never makes one-for-one matches. I still expect a swerveball on the trees, because well, as you've pointed out, the basic idea has been done before.

Likewise, I see all the Odin imagery around BR (he lays it on in spadefuls) yet BR isn't hanging upside down, and he seems to have been there a bit longer than 9 days... echoes, not reproductions. We can find ALL SORTS of different homages in GRRM's work, but the exact nature of where he's going to take it can still catch us by surprise. Another for instance: he pays homage to the Muppets, too, but I very much doubt that we'll ever hear of Kermit Tully having been traumatised in his youth due to repeated beatings and sexual harrassment at the hands of a polyurethane pig

[Artimicia]

I doubt Hardhome was anything of importance, perhaps one of the most isolated/irrelevant places until it's role in the series.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

On 10/7/2018 at 12:59 PM, Rufus Snow said:

I think an imperial power losing the entire wherewithal for a whole new colony

The line is "Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony"  I interpreted that as a few ships from a much larger convoy broke off and escaped, not that the entire convoy escaped.  If the whole convoy had escaped, I agree they would've been pissed.

 

On 10/7/2018 at 12:59 PM, Rufus Snow said:

When it comes to the interplanetary tree idea, I see all the homages that revolve around it, but I am expecting something different to emerge for this story. I don't see evidence for GRRM being a plagiarist (even a self-plagiarist), even when he draws on real history and real events he never makes one-for-one matches. I still expect a swerveball on the trees, because well, as you've pointed out, the basic idea has been done before.

Likewise, I see all the Odin imagery around BR (he lays it on in spadefuls) yet BR isn't hanging upside down, and he seems to have been there a bit longer than 9 days... echoes, not reproductions. We can find ALL SORTS of different homages in GRRM's work, but the exact nature of where he's going to take it can still catch us by surprise.

That was what I was getting at saying that ASOIAF was an origin story for the Lovecraft mythos, as well as many real world myths.  That gets him out of the plagiarism trap, he is providing a plausible explanation for why all these themes keep coming up in human mythology, they are based on a real set of occurrences.  Bloodraven is not a plagiarized Odin, he is the real story behind the myth of Odin.  Many of Lovecraft's stories bring that idea up, that gods are aliens, and myth and legend are distorted history.  The weirwood (Ygg) are the real "trees" that Yggdrasil and other world trees are based on, and the snake god Yig from Lovecraft, and Quetzlcoatl, and the Hecatoncheiries, etc.  Euron isn't a ripoff of Cthulhu, he is the real thing that the myth was built around.

"One sailor with a story, aye, a man might laugh at that, but when oarsmen off four different ships tell the same tale in four different tongues...”

In George's story With Morning Comes Mistfall, I think he laid out that he prefers real scientific explanations rather than mysterious unexplained magic.  The wraiths were not really ghosts, they were just apes.  The journalist can still appreciate Wraithworld even after the mysteries are explained (but he acknowledges that most people prefer the mystery).  There is a line "He took me to island swamps, where the trees are of a very different sort and sway horridly without a wind." which is a clear reference to the Willows and Color out of Space.

 

I just found out that Larry Niven already did the trees as rocket ships to colonize space idea in 1966, with World of Ptavvs, they are called Stage Trees.

Quote

Stage Trees have two life cycles - a bush and a multi-stage spire-like form. The spire itself is dead, and can reach 15 feet in diameter. The living, photosynthetic part surrounds the base on the ground. At the top of the spire is a seed pod. The tree launches the seed pod into space, which can travel for thousands of years, enter another system, and explode, releasing seeds onto new planets.

Coincidentally, that story also features a spaceship (not a tree) knocking a moon out of orbit.

 

 

Speaking of knocking moons out of orbit, check out the prologue from Feast; a dornishman/woman shoots apples out of the air in the dark with a weirwood bow and arrow (goldenheart is Summer Isles weirwood), while talking about dragons.

Quote

“Dragons,” said Mollander. He snatched a withered apple off the ground and tossed it hand to hand.
“Throw the apple,” urged Alleras the Sphinx. He slipped an arrow from his quiver and nocked it to
his bowstring. . .

Dragging his clubfoot, Mollander took a short hop, whirled, and whipped the apple sidearm
into the mists that hung above the Honeywine.  . . Far and fast the apple flew...
...but not as fast as the arrow that whistled after it, a yard-long shaft of golden wood fletched with
scarlet feathers. Pate did not see the arrow catch the apple, but he heard it. A soft chunk echoed back
across the river, followed by a splash.
Mollander whistled. “You cored it. Sweet.”

 

“There’s another apple near your foot,” Alleras called to Mollander, “and I still have two arrows in
my quiver.”
“Fuck your quiver.” Mollander scooped up the windfall. “This one’s wormy,” he complained, but he
threw it anyway. The arrow caught the apple as it began to fall and sliced it clean in two. One half
landed on a turret roof, tumbled to a lower roof, bounced, and missed Armen by a foot. “If you cut a
worm in two, you make two worms,” the acolyte informed them.

“One last apple,” promised Alleras, “and I will tell you what I suspect about these dragons.”
“What could you know that I don’t?” grumbled Mollander. He spied an apple on a branch, jumped up,
pulled it down, and threw. Alleras drew his bowstring back to his ear, turning gracefully to follow
the target in flight. He loosed his shaft just as the apple began to fall.
“You always miss your last shot,” said Roone.
The apple splashed down into the river, untouched.
“See?” said Roone.

The bow was carved from goldenheart, a rare and fabled wood from the
Summer Isles.

The apples represent the three spaceships that have caused/will cause the eclipses. 

Recall the Clegane house sigil is three black dogs, and black dogs in several mythologies cause eclipses, and the chinese fire arrows at the black dog to scare it away.  In one of Bran's dreams the Mountain causes an eclipse, and Tycho Nestoris* says that it is safer to travel with three ships. 

The first two lines of that prologue makes a connection between dragons and apples, later they mention the dragon having three heads, the dragons are associated with the Qartheen moon in eclipse formation, and in Hindu mythology a solar eclipse is caused by Rahu the Dragon's Head swallowing the sun.

The first apple was the Qartheen second moon,

Quote

"Qarth the tales state that there was once a second moon in the sky. One day this moon was scalded by the sun and cracked like an egg, and a million dragons poured forth."

Dragons are the wreckage raining to earth, or escape pods?

The second apple was what caused the Long Night

Quote

"the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world."

 

There is another Niven novel called Lucifer's Hammer about an asteroid hitting Earth, and as we all know, Lucifer means Lightbringer. 

 

The significance of the worm in the apple might have to do with the Bloodstone Emperor controlling the ship who was himself partly controlled by the weirwood (there are several personalities in the network who are at war with one another, as at the end of Nightflyers), and the worm being severed and making two worms a reference to the Westeros and Essos weirwood networks being severed at that time by the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne. 

 

The third apple is what will cause the new Long Night and the weirwood will miss the shot.

 

 

 

Then there is the line in Bran's weirwood montage " A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows." what is the significance of this?

 

And the people who carry weirwood bows, the CoTF, Bloodraven, the Raven's Teeth, and Ygritte. 

 

 

*Tychon means "by chance" or "hitting the mark" in greek, and was a god of luck.  Tycho Brache was an astronomer, and there is an asteroid named Tycho.  

Nestor was a hive-minded race of alien beings from a 1980 sci-fi called Battle Beyond the Stars, they have a third eye, are white and stand in a circle, are telepathic, and if part of a Nestor gets inside you it can control you telepathically.

 

By chance the hive-minded interstellar tree happened to land on Earth, that is also largely the plot from Lovecraft's Challenge from Beyond.  An alien species sends quartz crystal "frozen ice" devices into space hoping one will land on a planet.  If it does land on an inhabited planet, they mind-swap with whatever creature encounters the artifact, and can then take over the planet.  There is a Red God from that story too.

 

[Rufus Snow]

5 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

The line is "Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony"  I interpreted that as a few ships from a much larger convoy broke off and escaped, not that the entire convoy escaped.  If the whole convoy had escaped, I agree they would've been pissed.

Yes, that is one line, but also:

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Valyria’s Children

However, it is clear that Braavos is unique among all the Free Cities, as it was founded not by the will of the Freehold, nor by its citizens, but instead by its slaves. According to the tales of the Braavosi, a huge slaver fleet that had been out collecting tributes in human flesh from the lands of the Summer and Jade Seas became victim to a slave uprising instead; the success of this uprising was doubtless dependent on the fact that the Valyrians were wont to use slaves as oarsmen and even sailors, and that these men then joined the uprising. Seizing control of the fleet but realizing there was no place nearby to hide from the Freehold, the slaves instead elected to seek out some land far from Valyria and its subjects, and founded their own city in hiding. Legend says that the moonsingers prophesied that the fleet must travel far north to a forlorn corner of Essos—a place of mudflats and brackish water and fogs. There, the slaves first laid the foundation of their city.

To me 'seizing control of the fleet' indicates more than a few ships escaping, and that it is indeed consistent with the whole fleet escaping. Otherwise the slaves would have 'seized control of some of the ships'.

 

6 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

That was what I was getting at saying that ASOIAF was an origin story for the Lovecraft mythos, as well as many real world myths.

OK, I was missing that, then... it would work out better that way round, though as I'm not steeped in Lovecraft it somewhat diminishes my engagement.

[dmfn]

On 9/23/2018 at 11:33 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

Loving some of these ideas, particularly the skinchangers vs Valyrians, or the Valyrians thinking it was Braavos!

For myself, I had figured the Wildlings had torched the place because it had been taken over by Other-worshippers.  The screechers in the caves were atavistic refugees!  Not even a speculation, just a wandering thought when I first read it, lol.  Wouldn't explain ash still falling months later (somebody said that above).  Actually though, nothing except a volcano really explains ash falling six months later - it would have to remain active for a while for this result, wouldn't it?

Well there are documented cases of coal mine fires burning for months that snowed ash