Fate of Olyvar Frey

[HexMachina]

On 11/12/2018 at 12:49 AM, Curled Finger said:

Definitely part of Cat's dawning realization.   Still some swords have 2 edges...

How does a Frey, Alessander or Olyvar, becoming the heir to Rosby, tie into the relationship between Robb and his squire?  It could absolutely be unrelated but this story has me noticing more than 1 place where fates cross...

I'm hoping without having anything concrete to base it on, that we will hear that some Freys (and Westerlings and Lannisters) were actually decent, not just sleazy.   

Well the Rosby ward is related to the fact Olyvar is a Rosby Frey. He has to be sent somewhere, so somewhere he has familial ties would make sense. Not sure of the implications, in terms of plot, but I suppose when it comes to the North seeking help in the face of the others, a friendly face around Rosby can't hurt. 

And I certainly never thought for a second all the Frey's were sleazy. I think we already saw some decent ones. I don't condemn the family as a whole for the RW.

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Are you saying that the Freys disowned Olyvar?  I don't believe that for a second, but I gotta hand it to you, it's a good idea.   Agreed, people do indeed go missing all the time during war.  So why draw our attention to any of them?  Tyrek is no more important than any of the others and I got the serious feeling that Westerling was a true believer in Robb.   It's so curious that this specific character, a brand new good brother, new to the cause and this is the 1 GRRM chose to try to save Grey Wind?   Jeyne sure appears to have loved her king--she's taken beatings over her dead husband.  Why the focus on the Lannister cousins taken prisoner or Lancel?  (To show us how valuable these people are on the chess board? Remember Brienne's dad offered 300 dragons I think, for her release. Jamie thinks this is a fair ransom for a house knight.  There was a price for the Lannister boys as well as Jamie--I wonder if any of the Red Wedding hostages are worth ransom to any of the players?)    No, it would not be a terrible story if we never learn any of their fates, or even if Satin has a different backstory than the one he gives...but these are such interesting little prayers (sacrifices) to the overall story.   

Not disinherited, just sent away so there was no chance of him running and telling Robb. Hence my Rosby speculation. 'Go on Olyvar, go see your maternal family for a bit, we'll get you as squire to a better knight.' nothing suspicious about that to raise any flags. 

I don't discourage the odd crackpot, especially when it's not too outlandish, so Westerling surviving doesn't strike me as too strange. But I do think he would be more likely to show up with the Brotherhood if he did survive. After all he would be badly wounded and need attention to survive. Some faction of the BwB may have taken him in. That's my preference if he did live. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding some of the replies on here, but Cersei says that the ward is not of Gyles Rosby's blood, which granted, English not being my first language, I take it to mean that they have no blood relation. Falyse calls him an ill-born wretch which could mean that he is a bastard or of much lower birth than she is.

Olyvar ending up at Rosby is possible, but I doubt he and the ward are one and the same.

[Adam Yozza]

4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding some of the replies on here, but Cersei says that the ward is not of Gyles Rosby's blood, which granted, English not being my first language, I take it to mean that they have no blood relation. Falyse calls him an ill-born wretch which could mean that he is a bastard or of much lower birth than she is.

Olyvar ending up at Rosby is possible, but I doubt he and the ward are one and the same.

Except Cersei doesn't actually seem to know who the ward is. She doesn't know for certain that he's got no relation, she's just choosing to believe that because she wants to give it to Aurane.

Also, saying he's not of Gyles' blood doesn't mean there's no relation. Robert and Rhaegar were related but I don't think anyones ever described Robert as "being of Rhaegar's blood". Stokeworth's seem very proud as a house and the Frey's are new and upjumped in the eyes of the older nobility. Combined with the stigma of the Red Wedding and the fact that he refused them shelter, I think that's enough to warrant her calling him an ill-born wretch.

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Well the Rosby ward is related to the fact Olyvar is a Rosby Frey. He has to be sent somewhere, so somewhere he has familial ties would make sense. Not sure of the implications, in terms of plot, but I suppose when it comes to the North seeking help in the face of the others, a friendly face around Rosby can't hurt. 

And I certainly never thought for a second all the Frey's were sleazy. I think we already saw some decent ones. I don't condemn the family as a whole for the RW.

Not disinherited, just sent away so there was no chance of him running and telling Robb. Hence my Rosby speculation. 'Go on Olyvar, go see your maternal family for a bit, we'll get you as squire to a better knight.' nothing suspicious about that to raise any flags. 

I don't discourage the odd crackpot, especially when it's not too outlandish, so Westerling surviving doesn't strike me as too strange. But I do think he would be more likely to show up with the Brotherhood if he did survive. After all he would be badly wounded and need attention to survive. Some faction of the BwB may have taken him in. That's my preference if he did live. 

Ah Lady, once again you illuminate my monitor with your lovely and informed explanation.   Thanks for breaking that down in simple terms.  I thought the Freys were all sleazy on my 1st read but have since come around to your thinking about a very few of them.   That's no doubt part of where my fascination with these missing boys stems from--reading and understanding a little rather than consuming a book.   All 3 of our missing boys belong to "bad" camps, mean wretched people, but Olyvar and Raynar are so closely linked to Robb and his betrayal of the Frey promise.   Every reread of Jamie and Brienne's chapters brings their characters closer to surface, very good descriptions of human beings in my mind.  I know the Lannisters aren't all opportunistic ruthless jerks just as those few decent Freys loved Robb and did their duty to him.   Why are these 3 boys missing of all the boys who have gone missing?  Why these families, with all of them so clearly set against the north?  We don't see much of any of them, but the glimpses we got were convincing.   I still can't get over a Westerling being the one trying to save Grey Wind.   Why was he right there?  What was so obvious about Olyvar's loyalty to Robb that he couldn't be permitted to even remain at the Red Wedding?   Perhaps it is this Rosby connection and you make a reasonable argument in favor of this.    Were they simply idealistic boys as has been suggested before, or is it possible they have some small part yet to play?  Watching a warg bonded direwolf die at near the same time his warg bonded Stark had to be unusual, maybe supernatural, I don't know.    Just seems like something would happen.   I gotta go read the early Sansa chapters again...Thanks for taking the time to write that thoughtful reply.   

[M.Alhazred]

On 11/12/2018 at 8:18 PM, Curled Finger said:

Are you saying that the Freys disowned Olyvar?  I don't believe that for a second, but I gotta hand it to you, it's a good idea.   Agreed, people do indeed go missing all the time during war.  So why draw our attention to any of them?  Tyrek is no more important than any of the others and I got the serious feeling that Westerling was a true believer in Robb.   It's so curious that this specific character, a brand new good brother, new to the cause and this is the 1 GRRM chose to try to save Grey Wind?   Jeyne sure appears to have loved her king--she's taken beatings over her dead husband.  Why the focus on the Lannister cousins taken prisoner or Lancel?  (To show us how valuable these people are on the chess board? Remember Brienne's dad offered 300 dragons I think, for her release. Jamie thinks this is a fair ransom for a house knight.  There was a price for the Lannister boys as well as Jamie--I wonder if any of the Red Wedding hostages are worth ransom to any of the players?)    No, it would not be a terrible story if we never learn any of their fates, or even if Satin has a different backstory than the one he gives...but these are such interesting little prayers (sacrifices) to the overall story.   

Lame Lothar has made it clear what would happen once the old man dies.If he doesn't find you useful your out.That's coming from Merritt himself.Olyvar is a staunch Stark supporter and Walder Frey disowned and threw him out.On Lothar's advice not to mention all the others who are jockeying for position.As for Westerling and the other MIA's I firmly believe that's what GRRM was pointing out it does not matter if you are high or low born.MIA's happen regardless.Satin is much like the other red herrings in the series just there to confuse and ending up being a dead end.

[Stormking902]

Olyvar failed his king, and will die in the WOW trying to help the Stark cause in some way shape or form. 

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, M.Alhazred said:

Lame Lothar has made it clear what would happen once the old man dies.If he doesn't find you useful your out.That's coming from Merritt himself.Olyvar is a staunch Stark supporter and Walder Frey disowned and threw him out.On Lothar's advice not to mention all the others who are jockeying for position.As for Westerling and the other MIA's I firmly believe that's what GRRM was pointing out it does not matter if you are high or low born.MIA's happen regardless.Satin is much like the other red herrings in the series just there to confuse and ending up being a dead end.

It's definitely worth a reread to see if I can discern this.   Merrit was such a weak man I didn't take his words to be anything other than his own fear.   You could be absolutely right about the missing boys.   Missing happens.   

[Seams]

I like @Curled Finger's idea to look at the missing young men as a group or pattern: Olyvar Frey, Raynald Westerling and Tyrek Lannister. I do think that GRRM uses repeated plot elements for foreshadowing and to drop hints to readers. I have tried to find a set of common elements in the missing uncles that seem to be common across a number of families and major POV characters, but more examination is needed. Someone could also start an interesting thread on the bond between squires and the warriors they serve: Pod's loyalty to Tyrion, subsequently bestowed upon Brienne; Wex Pyke's dedication to Theon; Richard Lonmouth's relationship with Rhaegar and a number of other squire / warrior situations seem to result in a dedication from squire to boss (I'm avoiding using the word "knight") that is true and strong, even after the boss disappears.

But some of the Olyvar clues might come from a closer analysis of the Walder Frey dynasty. People play the game of thrones in different ways, and Walder's way is to marry into houses strategically. He may also be deliberately setting his many heirs against each other - similar to, hmm, I don't know, maybe Aegon IV?

Part of this notion comes from the metaphor that drew me into this forum: sewing. When fabric frays, it is unraveling and falling apart. But a fray can also be "disorderly or protracted fight, struggle, or dispute," just like the melees that are often part of tourneys in ASOIAF. Finally, the Frey of Scandinavian mythology is a god of peace, prosperity, and marriage. I don't know about peace, but Lord Walder seems to use marriage as a battleground, as we saw at the Red Wedding. All of these meanings seem to tie into the Frey family approach to the game that is the central metaphor of the Westeros struggle for power.

So how does Olyvar fit into Walder's larger gameplay? Let's look at Walder's marriages / descendants:

• Perra Royce - Riverlands - black iron studs and runes on bronze field
• Cyrenna Swann - Stormlands - battling white / black swans (golden beaks and feet) on black / white fields
• Amarei Crakehall - Westerlands - black and white boar on brown field
• Alyssa Blackwood - Riverlands - ravens and dead weirwood tree, scarlet and black
• Sarya Whent - Riverlands - nine bats on yellow - no children
• Bethany Rosby - Crownlands - ermine w/ three red chevronets (like sergeant stripes?)
• Annara Farring - Crownlands - knights combatant, purple and argent (white)
• Joyeuse Erenford - Riverlands - gold heron, black legs and beak, w/ silver fish in beak on pink background
• Baseborn (Charlton) - Riverlands - three sprigs of mistletoe on yellow w/ green

In Walder's Royce descendants, some of the sons / grandsons have given names associated with Targaryens (Aegon, Rhaegar, Aenys) or Lannisters (Tywin, also the marriage to Genna Lannister) and also Baratheons (Lyonel, Robert, Steffon). One grandson marries into the Hardyng family, which I have linked to dragon teeth and black diamonds (probably = obsidian). I think this group of descendants represents Walder's aspirations to be part of the ruling family or inner circle in Westeros. When Catelyn killed the fool Aegon / Jinglebell, I think she was symbolically killing Lord Walder himself and signaling that the Freys of this Royce group will all be targeted for slaughter, denying Walder the royal ties he hopes to achieve.

The role of Walder's Swann descendants isn't as clear to me, although they do have a Tytos (Lannister name) in this group. I think the opposition of the swans in the House Swann sigil might be a clue for us. We know that there is an ugly duckling motif connected to Arya's arc. It might be that we will see a transformation of swan characters from ugly to beautiful or some other kinds of switching of alliances.

House Crakehall is from the Westerlands. We have seen an unsuccessful marriage arranged between Amerei Frey (granddaughter of Walder and Amerei Crakehall) with Cersei's former lover, Lancel Lannister. This may signal that Walder's alliance with the Lannisters will not go as planned, and that the major favor Walder did for Tywin by ambushing Robb Stark may not result in better relationships with the current occupants of the Iron Throne. Jaime thinks he sees a bond between Amerei Frey and Lyle Crakehall, her cousin through her grandmother's line. Unfortunately for the Lannister's, Amerei Frey is nicknamed "Gatehouse Ami," and she may symbolize the Frey control of the strategic crossing point over the Trident. Lancel alienating Ami is a problem for the Lannisters. This is the House of Fat Walda, however, so there is a connection to Roose Bolton as well.

There is a Hoster among Lord Walder's Blackwood descendants, but this is not the line that allies with House Tully, interestingly. The names of the descendants in this group don't seem to allude to other houses in Westeros. My guess is that this Blackwood alliance is intended to be enigmatic at this point in the novels, as we don't know enough about Bloodraven and Melissa Blackwood and their relationship to Aegon IV and his descendants.

The childless Sarya Whent is a wordplay hint for readers, I suspect: Walder would have liked to have descendants with a Whent pedigree, so he might make a claim for Harrenhal. So he is sorry this wife went before she had children.

Now Olyvar's house: Rosby. Not a huge group, yet, but this is the group linked to both the Starks and House Tully, with Olyvar as Robb Stark's squire and Roslin married to Edmure Tully. The ermine in their sigil is an animal's fur, often associated (irl) with the robes of kings. What kind of animal, I hear you asking? Well that would be a type of weasel called a STOAT, the nickname that Jaime's cousin, Daven, applies to the Frey family. With the skinchanging and fur-skinning imagery in the books, I'm not sure whether Walder was trying to "wear" ermine when he married Bethany Rosby, or whether he is trying to put a Frey / stoat skin on the Starks and Tullys by sending these descendants into alliances with those houses. The red stripes on the sigil look like symbolic knife wounds, though, or might represent the gashes Catelyn scratched on her own face as she was murdered at The Twins. (At one point, I believe Arya pictured herself as a skinless otter, swimming across the Godseye to get to Winterfell. I don't know if that is related to the ermine symbolism of this group of Frey descendants.) Interesting to note that there are no Walda or Walder descendants in this group. Bethany Rosby's second son, Benfry, died at the Red Wedding. His wife, Jyanna, is described as a cousin and her surname was already Frey when she married Benfry, but it is not clear from which of Walder's wives she is descended, if any. GRRM is not dropping a lot of clues about the direction he has in mind for the Rosby descendants of Walder Frey. The mystery of the ward of Gyles Rosby may be linked to the mystery here, or they may be indirectly, symbolically linked in the sense that the author doesn't want us to know what will happen.

With one key exception, the Farring descendants are too young to have much role in the plot, so the sigil may be our best clue. The battling knights implies a conflict, in my mind, and the purple and argent are colors associated with Targaryens. I think this may be foreshadowing a return of Targaryens who will battle each other. Interesting that Arya's broken betrothal was with Elmar, the squire who cleaned rust from Roose Bolton's armor with a barrel of sand. (He didn't quite get all the rust off but decided it was good enough.) Arya (disguised as Weasel or Nan) told Elmar that she hopes his princess dies.

The Erenford sigil strikes me as symbolic in a few potential ways. It seems to be a hint about getting the best of House Tully (the heron holds a fish in its beak) and possibly wordplay on heron / Harrenhal. It also seems as if GRRM is making a deliberate contrast to the Swann sigil, described earlier, if we can trust that the wiki reflects his input. This bird is gold with black beak and feet. The Swann sigil includes a black bird with gold beak and feet. I know people put a lot of stock in color reversals as symbols of bastard houses, but I'm not sure that is the clue here. Swans an herons are different birds. It does seem as if we are getting a hint here about a reversal, however. Will the heron eat the fish, or will it inadvertently drop the fish in the river and enable it to swim away?

The wiki singles out a baseborn group of descendants, so I thought I would include it for consideration here. The alliance isn't official because there was no marriage by Lord Walder, but the association seems to be with House Charlton. The mistletoe sigil may be a reference to the importance of mistletoe to Celtic druids, but I don't know how to interpret it.

I've been wanting to do an analysis of Walder's alliances and gameplay for some time, and this post really only scratches the surface.

• There are Beesburys married into two of Walder's descendant houses, for instance. Beesburys are traditionally opposed to Hardyngs. So it would be worth looking at that.
• There is also the Darry connection. We know that House Darry was said to have spirited the Targaryen children, Viserys and Daenerys, to safety in Essos (for a period of time, anyway). I think there is also a dairy / Darry pun that ties back into House Butterwell, where Lord Walder's sister was the bride in the Dunk & Egg story. Plus, I have this weird hunch that Ser Arthur Dayne is connected to House Darry . . . Now that Amerei Frey has been set up as the Lady of Darry castle, and now that her Lannister husband has left her, what hints can we expect about the Targaryen loyalists who were the previous occupants of that house?
• The Crakehall boar sigil tells me that we can expect them to be present at the future death of a king, as we have seen boars and boar imagery at the deaths of several kings so far. (Borroq and his boar take up residence in the Castle Black lichyard shortly before Jon Snow is stabbed.)
• The initial Royce marriage and the many Royce descendants from Walder's first marriage surely tie into the Royces will be seeing at the Gates of the Moon. We know that Littlefinger has set up the main and junior branches of House Royce in a conflict over his role as Lord Protector of the Vale. We have seen Sansa and Randa Royce described in terms applied to the Bracken / Blackwell rival mistresses of Aegon IV. I think we can anticipate a similar split in the Royce descendants of Walder Frey, perhaps dividing the groups with Targ names from the group with Lannister names.

So Olyvar and his fate are part of this much larger set of moving parts, I suspect. 

[M.Alhazred]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It's definitely worth a reread to see if I can discern this.   Merrit was such a weak man I didn't take his words to be anything other than his own fear.   You could be absolutely right about the missing boys.   Missing happens.   

I don't think that was his fear speaking.That was the reality of the situation.Olyver is sitting in Rosby  while his maternal family thank the 7 that Lord Gyles isn't alive to see him disowned and cast out of The Frey's.

[Curled Finger]

@Seams, thanks for the support.   What a great breakdown of the Frey descendants.  All this talk of Rosby heir made me begin to think that even old Walder considered his Rosby offspring to be valuable, not attainted by the Red Wedding directly?   I had never actually thought Walder deemed anyone valuable.    He's such a nasty old bird.   This is great stuff to ponder.