What would Ned have done if Jon had white hair and purple eyes?

[Apoplexy]

On 9/22/2018 at 10:50 PM, Kaibaman said:

For Ned to claim Jon is half Dayne, he would have to get the Daynes to go along with the ruse in case some nosy fellow decides to do a bit of poking around. I'm not so sure they would be willing to do something so treasonous it would put them all in danger if things go wrong. But also while they are taking a huge risk for Ned's sake there's really nothing in it for them, and why would they be willing to sully their family's honor by allowing Ned to boast he had deflowered one of their ladies?

He could claim it was a lesser Dayne house, which wouldn't mind having the warden of the north raising the child. He could claim the woman was a commoner with some dayne blood. My point is, he could explain the targaryen features multiple ways. I don't see Ned not bringing Jon with him to WF.

[Darth Sidious]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 1:03 PM, Kaibaman said:

When Ned went up to the Tower of Joy to see his sister after she had given birth to a son (who just happens to be the progeny of the late crown prince), I think its safe to say that he must have breathed a sign of relief when seeing his newborn nephew for the first time and saw that he takes after his mother more than his father in the genetic lottery. The fact that Jon has the same dark brown hair and grey eyes as himself meant he could take him home with him and pass him off as his bastard and nobody would have been the wiser.

But I wonder, had Jon been unlucky enough to of been born with any of the features from his father's side (if not all of them) that would have made him a dead ringer for a Targaryen, what would Ned have done? I doubt he could have kept his promise to Lyanna in taking care of him as his purple eyes, silver hair and fair milky skin would have marked him for death if anyone especially Robert takes a good look at him. Furthermore even if Ned managed to safely take Jon to Winterfell with him, there's no way he can claim he's Jon's father as Valyrian looks are an extreme rarity in Westeros. Plus having a Targaryen looking kid growing up in Winterfell would put Ned's family in jeopardy if word of it ever gets back to Robert.

I suppose the sensible thing to do in this scenario would have been to leave Jon with the Daynes after delivering the Sword of the Morning to them. They could easily pass him off as one of their own if they were willing to oblige. Then again with Jon being on the other side of the continent, Ned will have very few ways to check up on him and make sure his nephew is ok and growing up well, therefore he wouldn't be able to keep his promise to his sister in taking care of him. Its a terrible dilemma.

This story is not George R. R. Martin's "A Song Of Ice And Fire."  It would be Kaibaman's "Story of Jon Snow." 

 

[Bullrout]

What would Ned have done if Jon had white hair and purple eyes?

Call him grandpa Stark and give him a cane. 

Oh my grandpa, what purple eyes you have. 

 

[lrresistable]

I'm just saying, if Cersei could pass off all her bastards as Robert's in court at Kings Landing for 13 years, i'm sure Eddard could've kept purple eyed, snow haired Jon under wraps all the way up North in Winterfell as a pseudo Dayne.

 

It's very likely that Maegor son of Aerion Brightflame grew up in Starfall & may have inter-married with the Daynes, so it's possible to fob off this purple eyed version of Jon as a Dayne with such recent Targaryen ancestry being in the family

 

There's definitely something between the Dayne's & the Stark's, a concealed romance, according to Edric. He did also give them back the sword Dawn, which has to be immeasurably precious, more so than even than a Valyrian Steel blade. Seeing as Tywin couldn't even get a noble House to part with one of their swords. I don't get why the Stark's didn't smelt down their VS greatsword Ice and make it into two long-swords, for utilitarian purposes. 

 

@Curled Finger, the seige was at Storm's End, Stark came down to end it and Mace dipped his banners and swore fealty to Robert. I'm sure he would've moved on the Dornish Marches to negotiate a armistice to stop the war

 

As to why the North would rally for Ned, their Lord Rickard & his heir were just burnt alive and Northmen don't just let that go without retribution. 

I do think Aegon & Rhaenys died in KL. most people subscribe to the 'Aegon' we have in our storyline as being a feigned Valyrian one, with possible Blackfyre heritage. I don't even think Ashara had a child, we can only have so much of people pretending to be who they are not, or masquerading as someone else, which happens an ungodly amount in ASoIaF.

 

anyway, even if Robert did suspect Jon of having Targaryen blood, what was there to do really? Arryn, went to war over killing children. Eddard would protect Jon. Robert himself didn't want to get his hands dirty killing the royal children of Rhaegar. Long story short, Robert doesn't have proof, he can't go to Starfall because Dorne hates him and would probably have him killed if he went there, and the kid is a bastard being vouched for by a High Lord.

 

[Ylath's Snout]

52 minutes ago, lrresistable said:

I don't get why the Stark's didn't smelt down their VS greatsword Ice and make it into two long-swords, for utilitarian purposes. 

The Stark bois don't Sword and Board like a coward. Go big, go Guts!

[Free Northman Reborn]

Start a rumor that Ashara Dayne was the mother of his bastard, maybe...Hang on...Looks like that insurance policy was indeed taken out, in case Jon did start showing Targ features as he grew older.

[Moiraine Sedai]

12 hours ago, Bullrout said:

What would Ned have done if Jon had white hair and purple eyes?

Call him grandpa Stark and give him a cane. 

Oh my grandpa, what purple eyes you have. 

 

Oh grandpa.  What long chin you have.

[The hairy bear]

I don't think, as many of you do, that Ned would have been able to pass Jon as a half-Dayne.

Ned was able to protect Jon's true parentage by keeping the identity of the mother unclear. This prevented anyone to delve to much into the issue, since there was no indication of which investigation thread was the right one. Robert thinks it's Wylla, Catelyn believes it's Ashara, Cersei speculates that it's a peasant or a whore, etc.

If Ned had said that Ashara Dayne was the mother, this could have been discredited by virtually anyone who had seen Ashara in the immediate months before Jon's birth, including all the inhabitants or visitors of Starfall. The same is valid for any other Dayne woman that Ned tried to identify as the mother.

On 9/22/2018 at 8:35 PM, Ylath's Snout said:

The "Targ-look" isn't exclusive to member of House Targaryen. Robert didn't perform ethnic cleansing on all Westerosi people of Valyrian stock after he became king after all.

While it is true that there are other Valyrian looking people in Westeros, they are extremely rare. Also, Eddard had to restrict the timing of the conception during his time in Dorne. As far as we know, The Daynes are the only Valyrian looking family there, and that reduces the options a lot.

On 9/24/2018 at 1:54 AM, lrresistable said:

Lord Stark spent in Dorne. Supposedly enough to have a baby with Ashara Dayne, or so Catelyn thought, which is like a solid 9 months for that alone?

Martin said: " Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. "

It's thing that's worth noting is that Eddard's war buddies surely assume that Ned conceived his kid when he went down to pacify Dorne. It's the only time he had the opportunity, because Robert, Jon Arryn and most of the rebel lords would have been with him from the time he married Catelyn and until the Trident. If Eddard had had a lover during that time, it would have been very weird that no one, including his closer friends, had noticed her. For this reason, everyone assumes the mother was some Dornish woman.

But we actually know that the boy was conceived before the Trident. Everyone who had seen infant boy at Winterfell and knew the first thing about babies would see that Jon was about age with Robb, and not half a year younger. Catelyn, for instance, could not be fooled about that. She had to assume that Ashara Dayne and Eddard had seen each other soon after her marriage to Ned.

This is another example of why keeping the mother's identity as blurry as possible allows to preserve the secret. If Catelyn and Robert had ever discussed about Jon's age, they would have found that something was odd. If Catelyn had heard that the official story was that the mother was some Dornish peasant, she would have wondered how a commoner would had had the means to travel half a continent during wartime. If Robert had heard that Jon was conceived before the Trident, he would have wondered how it was possible that he didn't know Wylla.

[Ylath's Snout]

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Also, Eddard had to restrict the timing of the conception during his time in Dorne.

I got to disagree, Jon is alleged to have been born in Dorne but that doesn't mean his mother was from Dorne. I just don't see all that post Robert's Rebellion shenanigans taking more than 9 months.

Having the pregnant mother of his bastard tag along tag along to Dorne might be a bit weird but not unbelievable. There was a lot of highly dubious characters roaming around in the post-war confusion, keeping the woman safe by having her follow along his grumpy crew of Northern is a good-ish excuse the birth in Dorne.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

While it is true that there are other Valyrian looking people in Westeros, they are extremely rare... ... As far as we know, The Daynes are the only Valyrian looking family there, and that reduces the options a lot.

Maybe but to be crass, I don't think Robert would have any trouble swallowing the idea that Ned found a Targ-ish looking campfollower and kept her around to figuratively "fuck the Targs". While also hiding her out of shame/not wanting her to get lynched.

 

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, lrresistable said:

I'm just saying, if Cersei could pass off all her bastards as Robert's in court at Kings Landing for 13 years, i'm sure Eddard could've kept purple eyed, snow haired Jon under wraps all the way up North in Winterfell as a pseudo Dayne.

 

It's very likely that Maegor son of Aerion Brightflame grew up in Starfall & may have inter-married with the Daynes, so it's possible to fob off this purple eyed version of Jon as a Dayne with such recent Targaryen ancestry being in the family

 

There's definitely something between the Dayne's & the Stark's, a concealed romance, according to Edric. He did also give them back the sword Dawn, which has to be immeasurably precious, more so than even than a Valyrian Steel blade. Seeing as Tywin couldn't even get a noble House to part with one of their swords. I don't get why the Stark's didn't smelt down their VS greatsword Ice and make it into two long-swords, for utilitarian purposes. 

 

@Curled Finger, the seige was at Storm's End, Stark came down to end it and Mace dipped his banners and swore fealty to Robert. I'm sure he would've moved on the Dornish Marches to negotiate a armistice to stop the war

 

As to why the North would rally for Ned, their Lord Rickard & his heir were just burnt alive and Northmen don't just let that go without retribution. 

I do think Aegon & Rhaenys died in KL. most people subscribe to the 'Aegon' we have in our storyline as being a feigned Valyrian one, with possible Blackfyre heritage. I don't even think Ashara had a child, we can only have so much of people pretending to be who they are not, or masquerading as someone else, which happens an ungodly amount in ASoIaF.

 

anyway, even if Robert did suspect Jon of having Targaryen blood, what was there to do really? Arryn, went to war over killing children. Eddard would protect Jon. Robert himself didn't want to get his hands dirty killing the royal children of Rhaegar. Long story short, Robert doesn't have proof, he can't go to Starfall because Dorne hates him and would probably have him killed if he went there, and the kid is a bastard being vouched for by a High Lord.

 

Excellent, now we have the correct location and I do appreciate that.   The more important matter in my consideration is when the siege began and how long it lasted.  Not that Storm's End isn't a very valuable addition to the conversation.   A good correction offered with good cheer is always welcome.  I'm trying to establish a quasi time line of Ned's movements in hopes of getting a handle on the when of it all.   Not particularly germane to the conversation, but it is distracting to me at least.  At the risk of not enjoying total recall without revisiting the past comments, I only want to be sure I understand your comment at the end of this paragraph to mean that Ned's movements were Kings Landing, TOJ, Starfall, Storm's End, Winterfell?  As you know I believe the siege lasted a year or so.   If I understand your "movements" in concert with this say 8 to 12 months siege, (Stannis bitterly remembers Ned only arrived at the end of the siege and got all the glory while Stannis was the one who held the family home). There is a hole here somewhere.  Some quick research indicates that Robert's Rebellion pretty much lasted as long as the siege of SE, roughly a year (late 282 to late 283).  By the way things are listed in the Wiki, the siege ends then Ned heads for TOJ.  Hrm, seems like a lot of backtracking.   According to this here cool time line a small group of fit riders on fit horses can travel at about 20 MPH with time lost for rest.  Tower of Joy clocks 645 miles to Storm's End.  (All in this timeline so beg pardon if incorrect--AND there is no distance from Storm's End to Tower of Joy, it's only listed in 1 direction).   I give this journey 40 days in optimum conditions with rest periods.   OK, so that's late 283/early 284?  Tower of Joy is listed as a battle.   Who knew?   

I don't mean to bore you Irresistible.   Your correction on the location of the siege already saved me considerable time.   I'm just not at all sure things actually happened in the manner we are told.  Victors write the histories right?   I'll check back if I find anything that doesn't just drive me further bananas.  

[The hairy bear]

On 9/26/2018 at 10:52 PM, Ylath's Snout said:

I got to disagree, Jon is alleged to have been born in Dorne but that doesn't mean his mother was from Dorne. I just don't see all that post Robert's Rebellion shenanigans taking more than 9 months.

The "official" story told in House Dayne, as Edric tells Arya, is that the mother is Wylla, a servant of House Dayne. When Cersei confronts Eddard about it, she also assumes that the mother was Dornish: "Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara?".

If all the women that have been put forward as potential mothers of Jon were Dornish, we should admit that Eddard's stay in Dorne was long enough to, at least, make it plausible.

As I said, the reason why I think people just assumed it is that, before the Trident, Eddard just didn't spend time alone. He was living in a war camp, surrounded by his friends and bannermen, and he just wasn't the type to smuggle out at night. I don't think he could have had the oportunity to be anywhere close to any potential female lover.

On 9/26/2018 at 10:52 PM, Ylath's Snout said:

Maybe but to be crass, I don't think Robert would have any trouble swallowing the idea that Ned found a Targ-ish looking campfollower and kept her around to figuratively "fuck the Targs". While also hiding her out of shame/not wanting her to get lynched.

Valyrian-looking girls would act as luxury prostitutes in the most prestigious brothels, not as camp followers. That would be the lowest of the low in the whoring profession.

I'm convinced that if there had been a Targ-ish looking camp follower in the rebel army, she would ahve been widely known. And of all people, Robert, would surely know about her. 

[dmfn]

I don't understand why people are saying that Jon must have been conceived in Dorne. 

The boatman's daughter at the Sisters is one suspect of Jon's mom, and that was at the beginning of the rebellion. 

Ashara Dayne "was not nailed to the floor" also excludes Dorne. 

And any "Wylla" could be from any place. 

[TheHodorThatWasPromised]

Why do people assume that anyone put so much thinking into who the mother was ? 

They had just finished a big war and now had to figure out how to rule a whole continent. Investigating the mother of a bastard was probably the last thing on peoples mind. Ned never told who the mother was and most people would have accepted that and quickly forgotten about Jon. Outside of Winterfell and a few Dornish people no one would even have known what he looked like.  

The only person who might have had a reason to look into it was Catelyn and she quickly realised that it was not something she should ever ask again.

Everyone else had no reason to care about the mother of yet another bastard boy. 

[Kaibaman]

4 minutes ago, TheHodorThatWasPromised said:

Everyone else had no reason to care about the mother of yet another bastard boy. 

Normally they wouldn't but if said bastard looked nothing like his father and is suspiciously the spitting image of the deceased crown prince from the former dynasty. That is something that would spark people's interests.

[Ylath's Snout]

30 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

Normally they wouldn't but if said bastard looked nothing like his father and is suspiciously the spitting image of the deceased crown prince from the former dynasty

Well Jon does have the Stark-look when it comes to the shape of his face and the like. Also what would people assume based on those look that Rhaegar got Ned pregnant somehow or what?

[The Commentator]

On 9/25/2018 at 11:20 PM, Bullrout said:

What would Ned have done if Jon had white hair and purple eyes?

Call him grandpa Stark and give him a cane. 

Oh my grandpa, what purple eyes you have. 

 

And Ray-Bans.  Seriously, Jon doesn't have any Targaryen blood.  He would have had to get those traits from another source.  

[Ylath's Snout]

18 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Seriously, Jon doesn't have any Targaryen blood.  He would have had to get those traits from another source.

Who do you think Jon's ma and pa is if not R+J?

[Bawn]

He would went to House Dayne, explained the situation and asked for their help.  House Dayne could hypothetically suggest that Ashara fake her own death so she could go across the narrow sea (or somewhere else (the neck?) and look after the child for Ned.  However, Jon does not have silver hair and purple eyes.

[Kaibaman]

10 hours ago, Bawn said:

He would went to House Dayne, explained the situation and asked for their help.  House Dayne could hypothetically suggest that Ashara fake her own death so she could go across the narrow sea (or somewhere else (the neck?) and look after the child for Ned.  However, Jon does not have silver hair and purple eyes.

Ashara had purple eyes but she also had black hair not the silver/white variety. And why would she need to fake a suicide for this plan to work? Couldn't they just send her away with the baby to start a new life maybe somewhere in the North so Ned could be closeby with Ned paying for her and his nephew's expenses? Plus why would the Daynes go to all that trouble for Ned in the first place?

[asongofheresy]

Young Griff is a Targeyen baby with purple eyes and silver hair and he was sent to Essos to be rised in secret. I wonder why everyone thinks R/L baby must be identical to Ned?? Even Ned's own children didn't look like him except for Arya, other four of his children looked like Tully's. And even after marrying Martell, Dayne and Blackwood women Targaryen features were prominent.