The House of the Undying

[Springwatch]

Dany is already the bride of fire: before she walks into the pyre, she looks at it and thinks, "This is a wedding too."

I'm not bothered if the prophecy contains a list of husbands, though. Weddings get a lot of prominence generally; probably if a prophecy focused on Jon, his marriage partner would appear in it too. Not to mention the symbolic potential of weddings, e.g. Rhaegar + Lyanna == Fire + Ice.

And if the husbands are identified as mounts... That's not Dany as a victim, or Dany as romantic airhead. (It's not even fair to Dany, because she has always wanted mutual respect with her husbands.)

[LadyOlenna]

17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not sure where this idea comes from that if the Undying interpretation doesn't equate to Jon, that somehow means Dany/Jon will never, never happen.

Hmmmm, I never said that, I'm not sure what you mean here. I have absolutely no doubt that the blue flower growing in a wall of ice is Jon.

As regards the interpretation of "bride of fire" I'm still a bit confused. That sentence follows three visions. While the first refers to Drogo and the last to Jon, the one in the middle is confusing. It would make more sense if the one in the middle were Hizdahr, but it doesn't look plausible.

17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

No, the Undying aren't handing out random predictions like a carnival fortune teller and the books aren't being written so carelessly

Again, that's not what I said. The visions are very specific and full of significance. What I meant is that I see no indication that she's obliged to marry to attain what she wants.

[Lollygag]

41 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not sure where this idea comes from that if the Undying interpretation doesn't equate to Jon, that somehow means Dany/Jon will never, never happen.

 

41 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

Hmmmm, I never said that, I'm not sure what you mean here. I have absolutely no doubt that the blue flower growing in a wall of ice is Jon.

As regards the interpretation of "bride of fire" I'm still a bit confused. That sentence follows three visions. While the first refers to Drogo and the last to Jon, the one in the middle is confusing. It would make more sense if the one in the middle were Hizdahr, but it doesn't look plausible.

You never said that literally, but it's the only conclusion you've left me in a plain 2 + 2 sort of way. If you have "absolutely no doubt", that's fine. But unless you can back that up with some sort of reasoning, you can't expect others to buy in on that.

You cut out the part of my post where I explain why it makes no sense and haven't bothered to address these. As was stated upthread, the fandom adheres to this interpretation despite it not making sense, despite arbitrarily throwing out Hizzy, despite how GRRM soooo often uses the word "sweet" for things which deceive, are poisoned, or just death, and it almost always centers around using it Jon/Dany foreshadowing which you've brought up repeatedly.

Ygitte/Jon and Jaime/Brienne weren't foreshadowed until they were in each other's arcs already that I've seen, so this not being Jon/Dany foreshadowing doesn't mean it won't happen. If I had to guess, Jon/Dany will happen in some way, but I don't see this as evidence.

 

59 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

  18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

No, the Undying aren't handing out random predictions like a carnival fortune teller and the books aren't being written so carelessly 

 

1 hour ago, LadyOlenna said:

Again, that's not what I said. The visions are very specific and full of significance. What I meant is that I see no indication that she's obliged to marry to attain what she wants.

You said they were "purely as a prediction of the future" which isn't the same thing as "the visions are very specific and full of significance. What I meant is that I see no indication that she's obliged to marry to attain what she wants." The Undying handing out predictions which aren't tied to her destiny 'cause teenage girls like those things sound like a carnival act to me and bad, sexist writing on top of it.

So which is it? How does it make sense to have the Undying tell her a list of her husbands if it's not relevant to her destiny?

19 hours ago, LadyOlenna said:

I don't really see it as sexist. In the HOTU Dany receives one prophecy (three mounts, three fires, three treason), all the rest are visions of what happened, what is yet to come, and what could have happened if things went differently (es.: Rhaego).

I don't see the visions related to her marriages as something that is telling her she has to marry, but purely as a prediction of the future.

We know that Daenerys, unlike Cersei, doesn't let prophecies guide her life. She was sold to Drogo (well before the prophecy), but then it was her who chose to marry Hizdahr, and I'm pretty sure she'll marry Jon for love.

I agree. Three treason will you know, the prophecy says. It could well be that she'll commit one treason or more.

 

[LadyOlenna]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

You never said that literally, but it's the only conclusion you've left me in a plain 2 + 2 sort of way. If you have "absolutely no doubt", that's fine. But unless you can back that up with some sort of reasoning, you can't expect others to buy in on that.

Blue flowers are mentioned a few times throughout the novels, always associated with certain characters: in primis, Lyanna Stark. We know from Ned's memories that she loved blue winter roses. A crown of the same flowers is given to Lyanna by Rhaegar when he proclaims her queen of love and beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Finally, blue roses are central to the story of Bael the Bard, who "kidnapped" a Stark maiden leaving only a blue rose in her bed. The parallels between Rhaegar/Lyanna and Bael/Stark maiden are obvious. I don't think I'm reaching out saying that the blue flower growing in a wall of ice is Jon, since the flower is strictly associated with his mother and the Wall is the location where he is at.

But that is not the only vision in the HOTU that relates to Jon. Dany sees Rhaegar twice. Once, with his newborn son, where he talks about the Prince that was promised, whose is the song of ice and fire (ice=Stark + fire= Targaryen), and then she sees him dying, uttering a woman's name (Lyanna).

(Please read the spoiler... no spoiler in it, I just made a mess)

 

plus [\Spoiler]

Spoiler

 

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

6 hours ago, LadyOlenna said:

I'm not sure where this idea comes from that if the Undying interpretation doesn't equate to Jon, that somehow means Dany/Jon will never, never happen.

 

I absolutely don't think that. In fact, I said that the triad of visions preceding the "bride of fire" is a bit odd, because it doesn't seem to include the marriage to Hizdhar, but that happened all the same, and I don't see Dany marrying Victarion or Euron at this point.

The only part I consider a real prophecy is the one regarding the three fires-mounts-treasons. The rest are visions of the past, the future, and some of things that will never happen (Rhaego growing up to be the stallion that mounts the world).

Anyway, the only thing I objected to you is that I don't see as sexist  visions of the future (if they are indeed visions of the future). You basically said they are sexist because Jon, in the same situation, wouldn't have seen visions of his future lovers. But we don't know that, because it didn't happen, so it is your opinion (which of course, you're entitled to), but it is in no way supported by the text.

 

[alostsister]

While Jon is possibly the "blue rose on wall" in Dany's vision, and we're discussing Dany's experience, Jon and Dany have similarities. Jon was also betrayed by the Night's Watch- does that count as a treason or multiple treasons?  Also, couldn't Dany  disbelieve the visions and not bring about the rest of the expected tragedy? 

If referencing the show, then Un-Viserion ridden by the NK will surely be traumatic for her.

[Moiraine Sedai]

17 minutes ago, alostsister said:

While Jon is possibly the "blue rose on wall" in Dany's vision, and we're discussing Dany's experience, Jon and Dany have similarities. Jon was also betrayed by the Night's Watch- does that count as a treason or multiple treasons?  Also, couldn't Dany  disbelieve the visions and not bring about the rest of the expected tragedy? 

If referencing the show, then Un-Viserion ridden by the NK will surely be traumatic for her.

The choice to use treason instead of betrayal limit the possibilities.  You can only commit treason against a legitimate figure of authority.  Cheating on your husband is betrayal but it's not treason.  Mirri Maz Duur is guilty of treason because she assassinated a khal.  The Tyrells are guilty as well for killing Joffrey. 

[Starkz]

14 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The choice to use treason instead of betrayal limit the possibilities.  You can only commit treason against a legitimate figure of authority.  Cheating on your husband is betrayal but it's not treason.  Mirri Maz Duur is guilty of treason because she assassinated a khal.  The Tyrells are guilty as well for killing Joffrey. 

Mirri was a slave tho.. not really treason if you’re a slave.

[ShaggydogVOK]

On 9/22/2018 at 9:15 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

The House of the Undying

The Undying Ones are trying to impress Daenerys.  Maybe they know of the Azor Ahai prophecy.  

 

Mother of Dragons is self-explanatory.  Child of Three means she is the descendant of the three founders of House Targaryen:  Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys.  The subtle meaning is the importance of this number to Daenerys.  Three heads has the dragon emphasizes her Targaryen heritage.  The heads were Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys.  The Targaryen banner is a three-headed dragon.  Child of Storm means she is Daenerys Stormborn, born on Dragonstone during the fierce storm.  We can be 100% sure of Daenerys Targaryen’s identity.  She is indeed Princess Daenerys of House Targaryen, daughter of King Aerys II and Queen Rhaella. 

 

I disagree with a number of things you wrote, but this most of all. 

The Undying are trying to imprison her and drain her of her essence/magic capacity so they can continue to "live" as it were. There are a lot of takes on the prophecy, but this is just a recital of known aliases. Or is it?

Child of Three - She has a vision of Rhaegar as she moves through the House of the Undying. Rhaegar had two children already. She could be the third child of Rhaegar, completing the "three" that he was going for. This also explains the need to go for Lyanna as Elia was incapable of bearing another child for Rhaegar. So she's the third head of the dragon. 

Child of Storm is a nickname they invented, likely on the basis of the lies her Vis told. Stormborn likely refers to her being bastard born. We have no evidence she was born on Dragonstone. In fact, it is very likely she was born at the Tower Joy as Queen Rhaella had a great number of stillbirths, miscarriages, and children dying in infancy between Rhaegar and Vis. 

The name Stormborn makes more sense if Vis later legitimized her and made up the lies about her birth. It also explains why he looks down on her as he knows she isn't a true born child. 

Recall that in the Dunk and Egg story, The Sworn Sword Egg has some really negative opinions of bastards, when conversation about Bloodraven comes up. Egg declares that his father should have been the Hand, not some bastard-born sorcerer. Dunk reminds him that Bloodraven was washed clean of bastardy by his father King Aegon the Unworthy, but Egg retorts that all bastards are born to betrayal. This attitude was given to him by the High Septon who told Egg that true children are made in a marriage bed with love, while bastards are made out of lust and thus are prone to more base actions than higher ideas. 

This explains Vis crap behavior towards her, as well as the lies we know he has told her about her past. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 9/22/2018 at 9:15 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Fire has three meanings:  Funeral, execution, and rebirth. (Only death can pay for life.  Necromancy at work)

Mount has three meanings:  Ride, husband, and child.

Treason has three meanings:  Betrayal, death of husband, and death of child.

1.       The Three Mounts

A.      Silver-Drogo-Rhaego

B.       Drogon-Victarion-Child (Vic will get her pregnant.  His gift of the horn will allow her to bond all three dragons to her.  In a sense, he will give her the wind)

C.       ? - ? - ?

2.       The Treasons

A.      For blood.  Blood means for revenge.  Mirri Maz Duur murdered Drogo and Rhaego.

B.       For Gold. Gold means for greed.  For wealth.  The dusky woman will murder Vic and their child.  Perhaps the DW is a faceless woman who got paid to murder Victarion. 

C.       For Love.  This usually means jealousy.  Somebody will murder husband #3 out of jealousy.

3.       The Three Fires

A.      Drogo’s funeral.  MMD’s execution.  Rebirth of the dragons.  Rebirth of Azor Ahai.  This is the first fulfillment of her role as the Slayer of Lies.  She is Azor Ahai.  She walks out of the flames.  Stannis, the false Azor Ahai, is revealed.  Melisandre is the liar.

B.       Vic’s funeral.  Probably at sea.  Dusky woman’s execution.  Rebirth of House Targaryen.  She will rain dragonfire on Euron’s Iron Fleet, thus proving she is a Targaryen.  This is how her ancestors took care of the Ironborn.  They burned Black Harren.  This also slays the second lie, that of the Mummer’s dragon.  Aegon, the false Targaryen, is revealed.  Varys is the liar. 

C.       Funeral of third husband.  Execution of the third betrayer.  Rebirth of somebody that Daenerys will come to love.  Perhaps the rebirth of the third husband.  The third lie will be uncovered.  Somebody will try to present a false dragon.  Melisandre and Varys will be exposed in A and B.  I don’t know who the third liar will be.  There are two possibilities for the false dragon.  Darkstar and Jon Snow.  If you can think of another, please let me know. 

Three fires, three mounts, and three treasons, the last of each for love. That's nine fires, mounts, and treasons. The fire Daenerys must light for life was surely Drogo's funeral pyre. The fire Daenerys must light for death will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar so that they will ride with her to the ends of the earth. The fire Daenerys must light to love will be her funeral pyre after she dies in childbirth. 

The mount Daenerys must ride to bed was her silver, which she rode to her bedding by the darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. The mount Daenerys must ride to dread is her dragon, Drogo, the Black Dread, Balerion, come again. The mount Daenerys must ride to love will be the smoky stallion Daenerys will ride to join her sun-and-stars in the Night Lands. 

The treason for blood Daenerys will know will be committed by Illyrio, who will betray her for the blood of the Blackfyre. The treason for gold Daenerys will know will be committed by Tyrion, who will betray her for all the gold of Casterly Rock. The treason for love Daenerys will know will be committed by Aegon, who will betray her for love of Arianne. 

[The Commentator]

On 9/22/2018 at 9:15 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

The House of the Undying

The Undying Ones are trying to impress Daenerys.  Maybe they know of the Azor Ahai prophecy.  

 

Mother of Dragons is self-explanatory.  Child of Three means she is the descendant of the three founders of House Targaryen:  Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys.  The subtle meaning is the importance of this number to Daenerys.  Three heads has the dragon emphasizes her Targaryen heritage.  The heads were Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys.  The Targaryen banner is a three-headed dragon.  Child of Storm means she is Daenerys Stormborn, born on Dragonstone during the fierce storm.  We can be 100% sure of Daenerys Targaryen’s identity.  She is indeed Princess Daenerys of House Targaryen, daughter of King Aerys II and Queen Rhaella. 

 

Fire has three meanings:  Funeral, execution, and rebirth. (Only death can pay for life.  Necromancy at work)

 

 

Mount has three meanings:  Ride, husband, and child.

 

Treason has three meanings:  Betrayal, death of husband, and death of child.

 

 

She is the “daughter of death” because it took the deaths of these men to open the doors for her to inherit the right to rule.  Their deaths helped shaped who she is.  The deaths of Viserys and Rhaegar gave her The Seven Kingdoms.  The death of Rhaego made room for her to eventually become the dragon who will mount the world.  This is possibly related to her becoming Mhysa.  

 

 

1.       The Three Mounts

 

A.      Silver-Drogo-Rhaego

B.       Drogon-Victarion-Child (Vic will get her pregnant.  His gift of the horn will allow her to bond all three dragons to her.  In a sense, he will give her the wind)

C.       ? - ? - ?

 

2.       The Treasons

 

 

A.      For blood.  Blood means for revenge.  Mirri Maz Duur murdered Drogo and Rhaego.

B.       For Gold. Gold means for greed.  For wealth.  The dusky woman will murder Vic and their child.  Perhaps the DW is a faceless woman who got paid to murder Victarion. 

C.       For Love.  This usually means jealousy.  Somebody will murder husband #3 out of jealousy.

 

3.       The Three Fires

 

 

A.      Drogo’s funeral.  MMD’s execution.  Rebirth of the dragons.  Rebirth of Azor Ahai.  This is the first fulfillment of her role as the Slayer of Lies.  She is Azor Ahai.  She walks out of the flames.  Stannis, the false Azor Ahai, is revealed.  Melisandre is the liar.

B.       Vic’s funeral.  Probably at sea.  Dusky woman’s execution.  Rebirth of House Targaryen.  She will rain dragonfire on Euron’s Iron Fleet, thus proving she is a Targaryen.  This is how her ancestors took care of the Ironborn.  They burned Black Harren.  This also slays the second lie, that of the Mummer’s dragon.  Aegon, the false Targaryen, is revealed.  Varys is the liar. 

C.       Funeral of third husband.  Execution of the third betrayer.  Rebirth of somebody that Daenerys will come to love.  Perhaps the rebirth of the third husband.  The third lie will be uncovered.  Somebody will try to present a false dragon.  Melisandre and Varys will be exposed in A and B.  I don’t know who the third liar will be.  There are two possibilities for the false dragon.  Darkstar and Jon Snow.  If you can think of another, please let me know. 

 

 

 

 

I like the pattern.  3 husbands die, 3 traitors get executed, followed by a resurrection.  The husbands and the traitors must die.  I believe the remaining traitors are Tyrion and Jon.  Both will burn at the stake.  

[Megorova]

Each trinity of predictions are connected to one of Dany's husbands <- this is based on example of what happened with Drogo. First mount is either Drogo himself, or that horse, that was one of Dany's wedding presents from her husband. First treason, the one for blood, happened while Dany was married with Drogo. Majority of readers think, that this treason is Mirri Maz Duur's betrayal of Khal Drogo, but to me it doesn't make sense. As other posters mentioned above - Mirri was just a slave, she wasn't loyal to Drogo or Dothraki or Dany, she wasn't obliged to serve to them, and they didn't trusted her, so what she did, if she ever did something to either Dany or Drogo, it was not a treason. Furthermore for whose blood did Mirri supposedly betrayed Dany? It all doesn't make any sense. So, in my opinion, first treason wasn't done by Mirri, Dany was betrayed by Dothraki, and the reason of their betrayal is blood of their blood, son of their Khal, Rhaego. The betrayal is not what happened to Drogo, it's Rhaego's kidnapping by his Dothraki relatives. Rhaego isn't dead, he was kidnapped by Khal Jhago or Khal Pono, and was brought back to Vaes Dothrak, because according to Dothraki prophecies, that city was build specifically for the Stallion that will mount the world, and in that city he will unite all Dothraki into one khalasar, so those kidnappers has brought Rhaego there, to be raised by dosh khaleen. First fire, the one for life, was Drogo's funeral pyre, and it gave life for three of Dany's dragons. Three deaths payed for three lives - Drogo, Mirri, and the stallion on the bottom of funeral pyre.

So if we will use the same "formula" for other two predictions, then second treason and second fire are connected to second husband, and third to third. So treason for gold is connected to Hizdahr, same as fire for death. First fire, the one for life, gave to Dany lives of her baby-dragons. So this second fire, for death, will give death to someone who is also connected to Dany. My guess is that it's either burning of Dothraki in Vaes Dothrak, as revenge from Dany for kidnapping her baby, or it's burning of Dany's other babies - burning of her slaves. They are infected with pale mare, and there's no way to stop that epidemy from spreading, aside from burning everyone who is outside of Meereen, those that are already dead, those that are dying, and those that could have became infected. So burning all of them, lighting that fire for death, is the only way for Dany to save those of her people, that are inside the city, and not infected yet.

The same with third husband, Jon - the fire for love and treason for love, are both about him.

On 9/26/2018 at 6:41 AM, LadyOlenna said:

But that is not the only vision in the HOTU that relates to Jon.

In daughter of death, first vision is about Rhaegar's death, then in slayer of lies, there's a vision about winged beast flying away from smoking tower, and then in the bride of fire, blue flower on the wall of ice - all three vision are related to Jon - death of his father, his birth at the Tower of Joy (the smoke screen, that Ned Stark created to hide the last Targaryen dragon, is the cover story, that Jon is supposedly Ned's bastard), Jon at The Wall.  

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 9/27/2018 at 3:41 PM, Megorova said:

In daughter of death, first vision is about Rhaegar's death, then in slayer of lies, there's a vision about winged beast flying away from smoking tower, and then in the bride of fire, blue flower on the wall of ice - all three vision are related to Jon - death of his father, his birth at the Tower of Joy (the smoke screen, that Ned Stark created to hide the last Targaryen dragon, is the cover story, that Jon is supposedly Ned's bastard), Jon at The Wall.  

I don't think so.  I believe Jon will be presented as a dragon and Daenerys will prove him a false dragon.  Shadow fire is the lie.  It's not real fire.  The choice to use the word "beast" was deliberate because he is not a dragon.  He is the beast, the false dragon.  The skinchanger who will be the false dragon that Daenersy will slay.  

[Annalee]

The fires to light is an auto-da-fe for witches and warlocks.  It is a callback to the burning of sorcerers and witches except they are for real here.  This rules out Tyrion.  He doesn't possess any kind of unusual abilities to earn the label of warlock.  Mirri can clearly be labeled a witch.  Skinchangers and wargs can be labeled witches and wizards.  The trio who will earn a date with the flames are Mirri Maaz Dur, Moqorro, and Mellisandre.  

The mount is a gift from the husband.  Drogo gave the silver mare.  This is the gift of confidence.  Drogo provided the wings to lift Daenerys to great heights.  The wings to fly from her brother's nest and come into her own.  Victarion is not giving a kraken.  He's bringing an armada to the Dragon Queen.  This is the second mount.  A mount to ride the seas.  

The blue rose is the symbol of Bael the Bard.  It does not necessarily mean Jon Snow.  The blue rose on the Wall could easily point to Mance Rayder for stealing Jon Snow.  He took the son of a Stark and turned him into a wildling.  The blue rose is the symbol of Bael the Bard and not the Starks.   Mance stole fArya from Winterfell.  He was old enough to have stolen Lyanna from her bed.  

The husbands will come from savage cultures.  Drogo for the Dothraki.  Victarion for the Iron born.  The third people may be the wildlings and if that is the case the husband might be Jon.   There is also Mance Rayder to consider.  The three husbands will die and Daenerys will inherit his people.  

The three lies are all related to false identities.  False Azor Ahai, Targaryen, and dragon.  The first fire slew the lie of the blue eyed king because we know now who Azor Ahai is.  The lies are people standing in her way to the throne.  

[Starkz]

Why is everyone forgetting that Dany is married to Hizadhar? Victarion or Euron can’t be her second husband, they would be her third. 

[Lollygag]

On 9/25/2018 at 11:41 PM, LadyOlenna said:

Blue flowers are mentioned a few times throughout the novels, always associated with certain characters: in primis, Lyanna Stark. We know from Ned's memories that she loved blue winter roses. A crown of the same flowers is given to Lyanna by Rhaegar when he proclaims her queen of love and beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Finally, blue roses are central to the story of Bael the Bard, who "kidnapped" a Stark maiden leaving only a blue rose in her bed. The parallels between Rhaegar/Lyanna and Bael/Stark maiden are obvious. I don't think I'm reaching out saying that the blue flower growing in a wall of ice is Jon, since the flower is strictly associated with his mother and the Wall is the location where he is at.

But that is not the only vision in the HOTU that relates to Jon. Dany sees Rhaegar twice. Once, with his newborn son, where he talks about the Prince that was promised, whose is the song of ice and fire (ice=Stark + fire= Targaryen), and then she sees him dying, uttering a woman's name (Lyanna).

(Please read the spoiler... no spoiler in it, I just made a mess)

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I absolutely don't think that. In fact, I said that the triad of visions preceding the "bride of fire" is a bit odd, because it doesn't seem to include the marriage to Hizdhar, but that happened all the same, and I don't see Dany marrying Victarion or Euron at this point.

The only part I consider a real prophecy is the one regarding the three fires-mounts-treasons. The rest are visions of the past, the future, and some of things that will never happen (Rhaego growing up to be the stallion that mounts the world).

Anyway, the only thing I objected to you is that I don't see as sexist  visions of the future (if they are indeed visions of the future). You basically said they are sexist because Jon, in the same situation, wouldn't have seen visions of his future lovers. But we don't know that, because it didn't happen, so it is your opinion (which of course, you're entitled to), but it is in no way supported by the text.

 

No worries about the quote feature. It gives me fits still and I don't engage in conversations which are too piece-meal because something always gets messed up. I can't get the bullet feature to work right, so I used smiley faces and the tabs instead.

I'll take you at your word that you don't think that, but I hope that you're aware that you've undermined your point about going on ever further about Jon/Dany.

I said it’d be weird for a male character to get this treatment and used Jon only as an example for how weird it would be, not that he wouldn't have received them because I can't claim to know what's not been written. I’ve yet to come up with a single example of a male character in fantasy, comics, whatever where it was stated that he had to f*** or marry a certain woman to fulfill his destiny. I'm repeating myself as you keep editing out these points in your replies without response, but this this goes against themes brought up in Cersei's arc and it doesn't make sense for any character, male or female, to be a prophesied Big. Deal. yet have them be dependent on having to f*** or marry someone to fulfill their destiny.

I don’t believe that any of the HOTU is just random wouldn’t-it-be-neat-to-know predictions. I don’t agree that the books are being written like that. You're still not addressing my points here in your responses which severely edit my posts, just restating your views.

------------------------------------

About the blue flowers...

I think it’s confirmed that it’s Rhaegar and Elia that Dany sees, thus she’s seeing Aegon, not Jon.

We don’t know the name of the woman. This is assumed. GRRM leads readers to make assumptions throughout the series. I’d be careful here. He's compared the mystery around Rhaegar and Lyanna to Jefferson and Sally Hemings which is a truly loaded statement.

Blue roses are linked to death, Bael the Bard, Lyanna, Winterfell, but curiously, I've yet to find one link to Jon himself. If you wish to make that link personally, ok, but please be aware that this isn't in the books.

Dany says blue flowers, not blue roses. The readers assume it’s a rose. People tend to call flowers by the their proper name if we know what they are. The word “flowers” is used when we are discussing multiple types of flowers and we don’t care to list them all or when the type of flower(s) is unspecified or just unknown. Dany knows what roses are so it's more than odd that she doesn't call it a rose. Most people call a rose a rose, not a flower. It’s weird and looks like intentional misleading. And blue flowers are mentioned elsewhere in the series.

AGOT Eddard VII (Loras is the Knight of Flowers and sometimes wears blue armor. The Tyrells are linked to roses, so Loras is sometimes a blue rose.)

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa's fervent whisper, "Oh, he's so beautiful." Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy's shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

ASOS Sansa I

She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose.

AGOT Catelyn VII (Lysa and the Eyrie)

Lysa's apartments opened over a small garden, a circle of dirt and grass planted with blue flowers and ringed on all sides by tall white towers.

ACOK Tyrion III (random prostitute in KL)

From behind an ornate Myrish screen carved with flowers and fancies and dreaming maidens, they peered unseen into a common room where an old man was playing a cheerful air on the pipes. In a cushioned alcove, a drunken Tyroshi with a purple beard dandled a buxom young wench on his knee. He'd unlaced her bodice and was tilting his cup to pour a thin trickle of wine over her breasts so he might lap it off. Two other girls sat playing at tiles before a leaded glass window. The freckled one wore a chain of blue flowers in her honeyed hair.

ACOK Daenerys IV (HOTU vision)

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

All of Dany's bride of fire items are linked to death. The first refers to a darkling stream beneath a field of stars. Streams and rivers are seen as passages or ways to connect life, either stages or the course of life, or as a connection between life and death. In Greek myth, Charon guides the dead across the river Styx. The Riverlands in the series are given this same treatment, a place between life and death. The Tullys send their dead down a river. I don't think it's any coincidence that this is where Stoneheart, Beric and Arya dwell. The stars are linked to the dead and afterlife among the Dothraki. Dany's first big deal Bride of Fire moment came when hatching the dragons which is linked to crossing the veil between life and death, and in Dany's words, it was also like a wedding. The second involves a corpse. As for the third...

The HOTU chapter and AGOT Jon VII and VIII where Jon kills Othor are companion chapters (I've found others but they're not relevant right now). Loads of parallels. We find clues to interpretations in companion chapters.

 

AGOT Eddard X

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

....

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

A blue(-eyed Jafer) Flower(s) grew (rose) from a chink in a wall of ice (ice cell), and filled the air with sweetness (death).

Here we have the wights directly linked to the blue-eyed dead who rose. A play on words of which GRRM is fond.

ADWD Jon XII

"Oh, I do." The grin melted away like snow in summer. "I am not the man I was at Ruddy Hall. Seen too much death, and worse things too. My sons …" Grief twisted Tormund's face. "Dormund was cut down in the battle for the Wall, and him still half a boy. One o' your king's knights did for him, some bastard all in grey steel with moths upon his shield. I saw the cut, but my boy was dead before I reached him. And Torwynd … it was the cold claimed him. Always sickly, that one. He just up and died one night. The worst o' it, before we ever knew he'd died he rose pale with them blue eyes. Had to see to him m'self. That was hard, Jon." Tears shone in his eyes. "He wasn't much of a man, truth be told, but he'd been me little boy once, and I loved him."

Dany isn't going to have a run-in with Jafer Flowers, but she's on track to have a run-in with the wights.

 

Did you ever notice that Jafer Flowers is mentioned with his full name or last name repeatedly but Othor is never given a last name. Flowers is only a bastard name. Not important. Other flower mentions come up like wounds blossoming, smelling like pansy flowers, etc.

The wights are repeatedly linked to blue.

“ ‘Othor,’ announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, ‘beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers.’ He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue blue eyes.  ‘They were Ben Stark’s men, both of them.’ My uncle’s men, Jon thought numbly. He remembered how he’d pleaded to ride with them. Gods, I was such a green boy. If he had taken me, it might be me lying here…”

Jafer was placed into a chink in a wall of ice.

“The dead men were carried to one of the storerooms along the base of the Wall, a dark cold cell chiseled from the ice and used to keep meat and grain and sometimes even beer.”

Dany's vision notes the smell of the "blue flower". Dywen compares their smell to not being like pansy flowers, and Jon notes Othor's curious smell as well.

"If they’d been dead much longer than a day, they’d be ripe by now, boy. They don’t even smell.’ Dywen, the gnarled old forester who liked to boast that he could smell snow coming on, sidled closer to the corpes and took a whiff. ‘Well, they’re no pansy flowers, but...m’lord has the truth of it. There’s no corpse stink.’” The smell that engulfed him was so queer and cold he almost gagged.

And beware when GRRM calls anything sweet. 

The Lannisters regularly call each other "sweet sister" and "sweet brother". Viserys uses “sweet sister”. It's used with dripping sarcasm.

AGOT Daenerys I

He (Willem Darry) never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor.

Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio.

AGOT Tyrion I

His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother," he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on."

Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

AGOT Eddard IV about Varys

His hand left powder stains on Ned's sleeve, and he smelled as foul and sweet as flowers on a grave.

AGOT Eddard V

Ned took another swallow of milk, trying not to gag on the sweetness of it.

AGOT Catelyn VI

"My brother is undoubtedly arrogant," Tyrion Lannister replied. "My father is the soul of avarice, and my sweet sister Cersei lusts for power with every waking breath. I, however, am innocent as a little lamb. Shall I bleat for you?" He grinned.

AGOT Daenerys VIII

A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound, so thick it almost choked her. The leaves were crusted with blood and pus, Drogo's breast black and glistening with corruption.

ACOK Prologue

Stannis nodded. "The Starks seek to steal half my kingdom, even as the Lannisters have stolen my throne and my own sweet brother the swords and service and strongholds that are mine by rights. They are all usurpers, and they are all my enemies."

ACOK Tyrion IV

"So. Blood for his pride, a chair for his ambition. Gold and land, that goes without saying. A sweet offer . . . yet sweets can be poisoned. 

ACOK Daenerys II

"Sweet smells are sometimes used to cover foul ones."

ACOK Sansa IV

"I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."

ACOK Sansa VI

Sansa lifted the cup to her lips and took a sip. The wine was cloyingly sweet, but very strong.

"You can do better than that," Cersei said. "Drain the cup, Sansa. Your queen commands you."

It almost gagged her, but Sansa emptied the cup, gulping down the thick sweet wine until her head was swimming.

ACOK Daenerys V

"From Meereen I am sold to Qohor, and then to Pentos and the fat man with sweet stink in his hair.

ASOS Catelyn I

There was a smell of death about that room; a heavy smell, sweet and foul, clinging.

ASOS Arya XII

She paddled after the sharp red whisper of cold blood, the sweet cloying stench of death.

 

 

So here's a non-sexist alternative interpretation which doesn't demean her character and reduce her destiny to who she'll f***.

 

Also, I won't respond further if my posts are edited in reply. It's too much of a pain with this sort of discussion.

 

 

[Lollygag]

I've noticed that somehow "her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars" gets abridged to just "Drago". The context gets lost or is ignored. While Drago gave Dany the silver, I don't follow how they actually become equivalents.

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.  A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.  A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.  Mother of dragons, bride of fire.”

 

Rather than who she'll have to marry and sleep with, a more fitting interpretation for Bride of Fire are obstacles she'll have to overcome to become this. We see this in the Azor Ahai myth. It's more fitting to view this as Dany's version of kill the boy and let the man be born.

Dany starts out extremely shy, fearful and full of doubt and this surely a problem for a Bride of Fire. Dany learns through her silver to stop fearing, perhaps for the first time ever. It’s this newly acquired lack of fear which leads her to walk into Drago’s pyre where only death can pay for life. She learns this bravery and initiative gradually as she rides her silver through the grass, or as they pass through the Dothraki sea. Streams and rivers symbolically are a reference to the course of life and sometime into afterlife. In Greek myth, Charon guides the newly dead to their afterlife across the river Styx. The Riverlands in ASOIAF are also symbolically a place between life and death. In Dothraki culture, a sea of stars is linked to the afterlife. So a darkling stream as opposed to a regular stream seems to indicate something to do with life and death, perhaps something unnatural. And we get this when Mirri says only death can pay for life with Drago, and it’s death which pays for the lives of the dragons.

Learning to stop fearing leads Dany to her first steps to becoming Bride of Fire. While in the pyre, she says it’s like a wedding.

AGOT Daenerys

She was a young filly, spirited and splendid. Dany knew just enough about horses to know that this was no ordinary animal. There was something about her that took the breath away. She was grey as the winter sea, with a mane like silver smoke.

Hesitantly she reached out and stroked the horse's neck, ran her fingers through the silver of her mane. Khal Drogo said something in Dothraki and Magister Illyrio translated. "Silver for the silver of your hair, the khal says."

"She's beautiful," Dany murmured.

"She is the pride of the khalasar," Illyrio said. "Custom decrees that the khaleesi must ride a mount worthy of her place by the side of the khal."

Drogo stepped forward and put his hands on her waist. He lifted her up as easily as if she were a child and set her on the thin Dothraki saddle, so much smaller than the ones she was used to. Dany sat there uncertain for a moment. No one had told her about this part. "What should I do?" she asked Illyrio.

It was Ser Jorah Mormont who answered. "Take the reins and ride. You need not go far."

Nervously Dany gathered the reins in her hands and slid her feet into the short stirrups. She was only a fair rider; she had spent far more time traveling by ship and wagon and palanquin than by horseback. Praying that she would not fall off and disgrace herself, she gave the filly the lightest and most timid touch with her knees.

And for the first time in hours, she forgot to be afraid. Or perhaps it was for the first time ever.

The silver-grey filly moved with a smooth and silken gait, and the crowd parted for her, every eye upon them. Dany found herself moving faster than she had intended, yet somehow it was exciting rather than terrifying. The horse broke into a trot, and she smiled. Dothraki scrambled to clear a path. The slightest pressure with her legs, the lightest touch on the reins, and the filly responded. She sent it into a gallop, and now the Dothraki were hooting and laughing and shouting at her as they jumped out of her way. As she turned to ride back, a firepit loomed ahead, directly in her path. They were hemmed in on either side, with no room to stop. A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head.

The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.

When she pulled up before Magister Illyrio, she said, "Tell Khal Drogo that he has given me the wind." The fat Pentoshi stroked his yellow beard as he repeated her words in Dothraki, and Dany saw her new husband smile for the first time.

 

 

AGOT Daenerys X

When a horselord dies, his horse is slain with him, so he might ride proud into the night lands. The bodies are burned beneath the open sky, and the khal rises on his fiery steed to take his place among the stars. The more fiercely the man burned in life, the brighter his star will shine in the darkness.

Jhogo spied it first. "There," he said in a hushed voice. Dany looked and saw it, low in the east. The first star was a comet, burning red. Bloodred; fire red; the dragon's tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign.

Dany took the torch from Aggo's hand and thrust it between the logs. The oil took the fire at once, the brush and dried grass a heartbeat later. Tiny flames went darting up the wood like swift red mice, skating over the oil and leaping from bark to branch to leaf. A rising heat puffed at her face, soft and sudden as a lover's breath, but in seconds it had grown too hot to bear. Dany stepped backward. The wood crackled, louder and louder. Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. The flames whirled and writhed, racing each other up the platform. The dusk shimmered as the air itself seemed to liquefy from the heat. Dany heard logs spit and crack. The fires swept over Mirri Maz Duur. Her song grew louder, shriller … then she gasped, again and again, and her song became a shuddering wail, thin and high and full of agony.

And now the flames reached her Drogo, and now they were all around him. His clothing took fire, and for an instant the khal was clad in wisps of floating orange silk and tendrils of curling smoke, grey and greasy. Dany's lips parted and she found herself holding her breath. Part of her wanted to go to him as Ser Jorah had feared, to rush into the flames to beg for his forgiveness and take him inside her one last time, the fire melting the flesh from their bones until they were as one, forever.

She could smell the odor of burning flesh, no different than horseflesh roasting in a firepit. The pyre roared in the deepening dusk like some great beast, drowning out the fainter sound of Mirri Maz Duur's screaming and sending up long tongues of flame to lick at the belly of the night. As the smoke grew thicker, the Dothraki backed away, coughing. Huge orange gouts of fire unfurled their banners in that hellish wind, the logs hissing and cracking, glowing cinders rising on the smoke to float away into the dark like so many newborn fireflies. The heat beat at the air with great red wings, driving the Dothraki back, driving off even Mormont, but Dany stood her ground. She was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her.

She had sensed the truth of it long ago, Dany thought as she took a step closer to the conflagration, but the brazier had not been hot enough. The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. This is a wedding, too, she thought. Mirri Maz Duur had fallen silent. The godswife thought her a child, but children grow, and children learn.

Another step, and Dany could feel the heat of the sand on the soles of her feet, even through her sandals. Sweat ran down her thighs and between her breasts and in rivulets over her cheeks, where tears had once run. Ser Jorah was shouting behind her, but he did not matter anymore, only the fire mattered. The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame. Yes, my love, my sun-and-stars, yes, mount now, ride now.

Her vest had begun to smolder, so Dany shrugged it off and let it fall to the ground. The painted leather burst into sudden flame as she skipped closer to the fire, her breasts bare to the blaze, streams of milk flowing from her red and swollen nipples. Now, she thought, now, and for an instant she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his smoky stallion, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled, and the whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing.

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

Only death can pay for life.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away … yet she was unhurt.

The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin. When it saw Jorah, it raised its head and looked at him with eyes as red as coals.

Wordless, the knight fell to his knees. The men of her khas came up behind him. Jhogo was the first to lay his arakh at her feet. "Blood of my blood," he murmured, pushing his face to the smoking earth. "Blood of my blood," she heard Aggo echo. "Blood of my blood," Rakharo shouted.

And after them came her handmaids, and then the others, all the Dothraki, men and women and children, and Dany had only to look at their eyes to know that they were hers now, today and tomorrow and forever, hers as they had never been Drogo's.

As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons.

 

 

Some reading on the symbolism of streams, rivers, etc. No spoilers. My interpretation is that this darkling stream (beginning of life) is connected to the sea of stars (the afterlife in Dothraki culture) thus Dany is crossing the boundary between life and death here which we see with Mirri, Drago, Mirri's death and the dragons hatching. We see her child about to be born but never to be die in exchange for dragons also fitting river/stream symbolism. Lots to chew on here.

Spoiler

https://www.reference.com/world-view/river-symbolize-5252b82a553f5775#

The river is typically used to symbolize the power of nature. A river is also often used as a symbol of fertility, as it fills the soil surrounding it with moisture. The river is also used as a symbol of the passage of time.

The symbolism of the river is centered around its nature as a moving body of water. Moving water is able to find its way through nearly any kind of physical impediment until it merges with the ocean. A river's movement has also led it to being used as a symbol of life. In literature as in life, cities and towns often spring up on riverbanks, seemingly brought to life by the river's movement. The source of the river, typically small mountain streams, depicts the beginnings of life and its meeting with the ocean symbolizes the end of life.

In literature, the river is also used both as a sign of boundaries and of roadways. As a boundary, the river is sometimes used to show the difference between civilization and those outside of it. The river, in particular the Amazon or the Congo River, has also been used as a symbolic passageway into the heart of the jungle and as a descent into the primitive nature of humanity.

 

http://www.symbolism.org/writing/books/sp/2/page6.html

River symbolism has played an important part in many story genres. This symbolism, though, is somewhat ambivalent. J.E. Cirlot notes that river symbolism "corresponds to the creative power of nature and time. On the one hand it signifies fertility and the progressive irrigation of the soil; and on the other hand it stands for the irreversible passage of time and, in consequence, for a sense of loss and oblivion."

If ocean symbolism is based primarily around water in a relatively unmoving form, river symbolism is based around water in movement. In the book Jung And The Story Of Our Time, Laurens van der Post notes that a river is the image of "water already in movement, finding its own way through great ravines, carrying all over cataract and rapid through conditions of external danger, to emerge intact and triumphant for union with the sea out of which it rose as vapour at the beginning." He says that it succeeds in doing so:

"...only because it finds its own way without short cuts, straight lines, or disregard of any physical impediments but in full acknowledgement of the reality of all that surrounds it, implying that the longest way round is the shortest and only safe way to the sea ... The Rhine is one of the great mythological rivers of the world, a dark and angry stream, as dark and in as strange a rage and passion to get to the sea as the Congo issuing straight out of the darkest center of Africa."

It is the great movement of rivers which have given rise to labeling them with them with personalities and seeing in them symbols for the progression of life itself from small bubbling mountain streams to raging youth to death at their conjunction with the seas and oceans.

Rivers have played an important part in stories. They were important boundary markers in western films and crossing the Rio Grande had a symbolic significance beyond the relatively quick and simple act of moving across a body of water. Besides symbolizing boundaries they also symbolize roadways into the heart of continents and civilizations or away from the heart of continents and civilization.

The Amazon River provides a passageway into the heart of the jungle ecosystem as does the Congo River. In narratives using trips up great rivers the symbolic significance of this setting has to do with a return to the primitive heart of mankind. By going up a river the character must push against the natural flow of the river's current and this presents a significant struggle to overcome. One of the most famous stories of the twentieth century, Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness, demonstrates one of the most effective uses of combining the symbolic background setting with the main idea of the story. This is done by Kurtz's trip up the river into the "heart of darkness."

In addition to providing a passageway into the heart of a continent and a nation, a river can also provide a way of escaping from the culture of the nation. The stories of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn utilize the Mississippi River as something to flow down, with the current, and away from civilization.

Significantly, cities on rivers take on a symbolic importance in stories. There are cities like St. Louis at the intersections where smaller rivers flow into the great rivers. There are cities like Memphis and Cincinnati which are along great rivers. There are cities like New Orleans and London which are at the mouth of great rivers.

For the smaller towns on the rivers, the river brought life to the town. Mark Twain in his Life On The Mississippi talks about this symbolism:

"Once a day a cheap, gaudy packet arrived upward from St. Louis, and another downward from Keokuk. Before these events, the day was glorious with expectancy; after them, the day was a dead and empty thing. Not only the boys, but the whole village felt this... the white town drowsing in the sunshine of a summer's morning; the streets empty, or pretty nearly so; one or two clerks sitting in front of the Water Street stores ... the great Mississippi, the majestic, the magnificent Mississippi, rolling its mile-wide tide along, shining in the sun; the dense forest away on the other side ... bounding the river-glimpse and turning it into a sort of sea ...Presently a film of dark smoke appears above one of those remote 'points' ... The town drunkard stirs, the clerks wake up ... and all in a twinkling the dead town is alive and moving."

It is the river which brings life to the "drowsy" little towns along its banks and so much defines the characters which live in these towns.

Apart from providing life along their banks, rivers also possess their own life. This symbolic life has also served as symbols in much literature. Few rivers provide as great of a symbol as the great Colorado River.

One of America's greatest nature writers, John C.Van Dyke, catches this life cycle of the Colorado in his book The Desert. "The career of the Colorado," he notes, "from its rise in the Wind River Mountains of Wyoming to its final disappearance in the Gulf of California, seems almost tragic in its swift transitions." He tells the life story of the Colorado River from its "birth" high in the Wyoming mountains to its "death" in the Gulf of California. The passage might describe the life of a person, from the person's youth:

"It starts out so cheerily upon its course; it is so clear and pure, so sparkling with sunshine and spirit. It dashes down mountain valleys, gurgles under boulders, swirls over waterfalls, flashes through ravines and gorges. With its sweep and glide and its silvery laugh it seems to lead a merry life."

And then after youth the period of struggle of adult life:

"But too soon it plunges into precipitous canyons and enters upon its fierce struggle with the encompassing rock. Now it boils and foams, leaps and strikes, thunders and shatters. For hundreds of miles it wears and worries and undermines the rock to its destruction. During the long centuries it has cut down into the crust of the earth five thousand feet. But ever the stout walls keep casting it back, keep churning it into bubbles, beating it into froth."

Then the period of old age:

"At last, its canyon courses run, exhausted and helpless, it is pushed through the escarpments, thrust out upon the desert, to find its way to the sea as best it can. Its spirit is broken, its vivacity is extinguished, its color is deepened to a dark red - the trail of blood that leads up to the death."

And finally, it meets its "obliteration" or death by flowing into the Californian Gulf:

"Wearily now it drifts across the desert without a ripple, without a moan. Like a wounded snake it drags its length far down the long wastes of sand to where the blue waves are flashing on the Californian Gulf. And there it meets - obliteration."

And the waters of the Colorado, remain a mystery to those who try to understand it:

"The Silent River moves on carrying desolation with it; and at every step the waters grow darker, darker with the stain of red - red the hue of decay...there is only one red river and that is the Colorado...there is more than a veneer about the color. It has a depth that seems luminous and yet is sadly deceptive. You do not see below the surface no matter how long you gaze into it. As we try to see through a stratum of porphyry as through that water to the bottom of the river."

Van Dykes says that to "call it a river of blood would be an exaggeration." And yet, he concludes, "the truth lies in exaggeration."

 

 

[The hairy bear]

A very old thread from the previous incarnation of this forum, posted not long after the publication of ACOK, reached the conclusion that the "groups of three" could be grouped, and referred to the three big climaxes in Dany's live would have. All three would include a fire, a marriage and a treason.

• ...three fires must you light...one (1) for life and one (2) for death and one (3) to love...
• ...three mounts must you ride...one (1) to bed and one (2) to dread and one (3) to love...
• ...three treasons will you know...once (1) for blood and once (2) for gold and once (3) for love...

 

• The (1) group referred to Dany's time with the Dothrakis. The fire for live was Drogo's pyre, that brought the dragons to live. The mount to bed represented Drogo, that was Dany's first sexual encounter. And the treason for blood was Mirri Maz Duur use of blood magic.
• The group (2) was suggested to include Dany's marriage to some Greyjoy. Bear in mind that this theory was made before the publication of Feast and Dance. It was based on the "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly" quote. Both the ship, and the "grey lips smiling" suggested Greyjoy. And Dany would need ships to attempt an invasion of Westeros. That marriage would have ended badly, with the Greyjoy being abusive to Dany (one to dread), and betraying her for money (one for gold). Dany's dragon's would end burning the Greyjoy fleet in revenge (one fire for Death).
• The "love" group (3) would be related to his marriage to Jon Snow.  She would marry him for love. The fire for love would be burning the wight invasion with her dragons. And the betrayal for love would be Tyrion's (it was assumed that Tyrion would fall in love with Dany, and when he saw that she loved Jon instead, he would betray them badly).

I still think it's valid (perhaps with some minor tweaks), and if anything, the developments in the past books seem to confirm it.

[asongofheresy]

“Three mounts must you ride.  One to bed, one to dread, and one to love.”

“Three treasons will you know.  One for blood, one for gold, and one for love.”

“Three fires must you light.  One for life, one for death, and one to love.”

First ride is Silver, ride to bed Khal Drogo and first fire is funeral pyre of Drogo after she was betrayed by Mirri for revenge, she was avenging her people thus we can say a treason for blood. 

Second ride is Drogon, Balerion the Black Dread come again, I think after freeing herself from Dothraki she will return to Mereen? But I don't know who will her betrayer will be. Maybe an execution by fire?

Third ride is to love, her ride to Westeros imo, a fire for love could be a marriage? Remember Alys and Sigorn marriage they leap from a fire. And a betrayal for love... Well Daenerys doesn't want to share her man maybe her husband will cheat on her? 

[Megorova]

23 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

I don't think so.  I believe Jon will be presented as a dragon and Daenerys will prove him a false dragon.  Shadow fire is the lie.  It's not real fire.  The choice to use the word "beast" was deliberate because he is not a dragon.  He is the beast, the false dragon.  The skinchanger who will be the false dragon that Daenersy will slay.  

The three lies are - 1. King without shadow - Stannis is new Azor Ahai (He isn't, because Jon is); 2. Mummer's dragon - fAegon is lost Targaryen prince (He isn't, because Jon is): 3. Winged beast - Jon is Ned Stark's bastard (He isn't, not a bastard, not a Stark, most likely, not even Jon, probably he will be Aegon VII Targaryen).

The part about winged beast - Jon is half-Stark and half-Targaryen, half-direwolf and half-dragon, the mix of two Houses and two species, half-First Men and half-Valyrian, Ice and Fire. That sort of mixed beings in legends are called chimeras. Jon is a chimera - a winged beast, half-wolf half-dragon. So the shadow fire is not a false fire, it's a secret fire. The winged beast flew from smoking tower breathing shadow flame - meaning of this is that after Jon's birth, he was living false life, hiden in shadows and secrets, concealed by Ned's lie, that Jon is his bastard. This is the lie, that Dany will slay. She will reveal Jon's true identity, that he is son of Rhaegar Targaryen, the promised Prince and the last dragon.

Let's return to this discussion, when (or if ) my theory will be confirmed by GRRM himself, when he will write "the big reveal about Jon" in the next book (or in ADOS).

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The word “flowers” is used when we are discussing multiple types of flowers and we don’t care to list them all or when the type of flower(s) is unspecified or just unknown. Dany knows what roses are so it's more than odd that she doesn't call it a rose. Most people call a rose a rose, not a flower. It’s weird and looks like intentional misleading.

Those blue roses are not just any flowers, they are called winter roses, so, most likely, they grow only in the north, north of Westeros, and Dany never visited Westeros, she lived her entire life in Essos, so it's likely, that she doesn't know about existence of blue roses. She saw a blue flower, but because she doesn't know about existence of winter roses, she didn't knew, that that blue flower was a rose.

So even though Dany didn't thought, that that blue flower on the wall of ice was a rose, it doesn't mean, that it wasn't a rose. No?

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Third ride is to love, her ride to Westeros imo, a fire for love could be a marriage?

Majority of readers tend to miss that small part about last fire

If with three mounts and three treasons it was all the same - TO (to bed, to dread, to love - what to do with them - to bed Drogo, to dread Hizdahr, to love Jon); and FOR (for blood, for gold, for love - it's about what they, the betrayers, did what they did, for what did they betrayed Dany, what did they got from this betrayal - treason for blood was kidnapping of Rhaego by his Dothraki relatives, treason for gold was someone from Dany's side selling her to get gold from her enemies (either betrayal of Brown Ben Plumm, or Hizdahr selling Dany to Yunkai); then with three fires, there is a difference between first two and the third one - "Three fires must you light. One for life, one for death, and one to love." First fire gave life to Dany's dragon-babies. Second fire will probably give death to Dany's slave-babies (because they are infected with pale mare, so the only way to stop that epidemy from spreading, is to burn them all, those that are dead, and those that are still alive, but infected. Or maybe it's burning of Dothraki Khals at Vaes Dothrak for stealing Dany's child, and making her to believe for three years, that her son was dead. That's why this fire will be for death - revenge for Rhaego's (fake) death). Though the last, third fire, Dany will light TO LOVE. And further on, the prophecy says - bride of fire. Jon is the last dragon, son of Rhaegar Targaryen, the promised Prince, and new Azor Ahai, champion of R'hllor, and thus he is the living fire (like dragons are fire made flesh).

Dany is BRIDE OF FIRE, because Jon is that third fire, that Dany will light to love.

[Megorova]

10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I’ve yet to come up with a single example of a male character in fantasy, comics, whatever where it was stated that he had to f*** or marry a certain woman to fulfill his destiny.

Beauty and the Beast This is, probably, the most glaring example.

"Dune" movie and series of novels - main character had to marry with an Emperor's daughter, and to cast away his real wife, and mother of his two children, to bring peace to his planet and his people.

"The Matrix" movie, the prophecy said, that Trinity will fall in love with the Chosen One, so basically if Neo (the MC) failed to make Trinity to fall in love with him, then he would have died, and didn't became saviour of mankind.

This sort of reversed roles in fiction are rare, but not nonexistent.

P.S. Aerys had to marry with Rhaella, because that's what the prophecy required.