The House of the Undying

[Megorova]

On 10/3/2018 at 1:07 AM, The First Bloodrider said:

The person who is exactly like Cersei are Catelyn and Sansa.  Daenerys is nothing like Cersei.  I don't think you and I are reading the same book.  Daenerys woke those dragons herself. 

Dany woke those dragons with guidance from Mirri Maz Duur and Shiera Seastar.

 

When Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Shiera Seastar was there with her and Mirri, and helped Dany to give birth, and stayed with her for hours after that, talking. She was smiling and whispering stars; she was Valyrian kings with eyes color of jades (blue and green), tourmalines (there are blue and green stones, and also bi-colored stones), amethysts (some amethysts have blue color as their secondary hue), and opals (bi-colored stones, mix of blue and green) - Shiera Seastar had bi-colored eyes, one blue and the other one green, and those swords of pale fire in hands of those kings was actually a glass candle in hands of Shiera Seastar; she was seen by Dany as Viserys, who was twisting her nipples (nipple stimulation is one of methods how to naturally induce labour) -

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/nipple-stimulation-to-induce-labor#what-the-research-says

Quote

Rubbing or rolling your nipples helps the body release oxytocin. Oxytocin plays a role in arousal, initiating labor, and bonding between mother and child. This hormone also makes the uterus contract after labor, helping it return to its prepregnancy size.

Stimulating the breasts may also help bring on full labor by making contractions stronger and longer. In fact, in traditional inductions, doctors often use the drug Pitocin, which is a synthetic form of oxytocin.

In the House of the Undying, in one of visions, Dany saw a dragon bursting out of Mirri's brow. On brow/forehead is located six chakra, which is also called chakra of wisdom, or third eye. Shiera Seastar is the Three-eyed Crow, and she was Mirri's teacher, together with maester Marwyn (who was not only teaching western medicine to Mirri, but also learning magic from Shiera, icluding how to use glass candles. So he was also there, with Mirri and Shiera, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego. Dany saw him as Jorah, he said to her, that Rhaegar was the last dragon.)

Shiera Seastar told Dany how to hatch those eggs. She knew what should be done, because she was in Summerhall, when Aegon V was trying to hatch dragon eggs. Most likely, it was Shiera, whom Aegon has sent to Asshai, to find out, how to hatch dragon eggs. So after burning of Summerhall, Shiera has returned to Asshai, and lived there for many years, under name Quaithe, that's when she met there Mirri and Marwyn, and made the two of them her disciples.

We are reading the same books, but I'm very good with solving puzzles, and reading between the lines, so I know things, that you will find out only in later books, when they will be revealed there in plain text <- Sorry, if it's rude, but that's how it is

On 10/3/2018 at 1:07 AM, The First Bloodrider said:

She earned her own khalasar.  She rescued the Unsullied from their tormentors on her own.  Those were not the work of the good 'ol boy network.  Those accomplishments are Daenerys Targaryen's and hers alone.   She is actually the most accomplished person in the novels.  

About a hundred of Dothraki stayed with Dany, because they were women, children, elderly, wounded, or were obliged to stay with her, because they were her protectors, her ko, and couldn't leave her. 

So she didn't earned her own khalasar. They just didn't had any other option, where to go, instead of staying with her. And then she has hatched those dragon eggs, and those Dothraki has acknowledges her as their Khal, because of what she did (with guidance of Mirri and Shiera). Though anyone with dragonblood, and who gave blood sacrifice to R'hllor, would have been able to hatch those eggs. Anyone.

Dany didn't rescued Unsullied, she bought them, because she needed an army, to get Queen's crown for her.

The only thing on which I agree with you, is that Dany is the most accomplished woman in the novels. Though not the most accomplished person.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I agree that it’s ominous, but I see pretty ominous things for most of the major characters. I think GRRM said TWOW would see characters be darker and I believe it as I see quite a bit of set up for this. The Rhoynar sections of TWOIAF have the imperialistic and enslaving Valyrians encroaching on the perfect hippie commune of the Rhoyne. Basically, the Valyrians are playing the part of the Others here and it’s water which saves them, but ruins them in the process. In this story, the roles are reversed. Imperialistic and enslaving ice/Others encroach, and it’s fire that saves. I’m guessing that Dany will be very controversial because that’s how characters seem to roll, but ultimately she may play a role akin to Garin and the dragons are her flood of fire. But I’m probably wrong. So many characters are on pivot points right now so I find them hard to predict for.

I guess whatever happens depends on whether you believe Dany is a defender or an invader of Westeros. I think she'll be a bit of both but end up siding more with the latter. 

The Targaryens play the "doomed dynasty" role of House Capet in the Accursed Kings which GRRM has cited as a major influence. Prince Garin is a Jacques de Molnay stand-in. As legend goes, he publicly cursed King Phillip of House Capet and his descendents for torturing him and attempting to steal the Templars' wealth. The curse has been blamed for why the Capetian line ended within 5 generations because no one could produce an heir. In asoiaf there is a similar invader/defender dynamic going on, where the curse could still stand no matter what the descendents do to avoid it, where Dany is the last of the "fire lords" to fall.

We're not sure if fire will save. Its only helped people in small amounts so far. Qhorin sees it as good/bad which is a balanced view. This balance is also present in dragonglass. Jojen also sees a mixture of elements as more positive than any "pure" element that stands by itself. Incest was used to make sure fire remained in its "pure, untainted" form, so thats clearly a negative. Jon is a "half-breed" which is closer to a balance. Val sees fire as fickle. The direwolves fear it. Fire and wood (earth magic) also appear oppositional. The destruction of the Dragonpit and Hardhome burned so hot they were called "False Dawns." Sallador warns that too much light can hurt the eyes. Doran wants to use it for vengeance. Melisandre and Selyse love it too much. If Dany is a savior then the crazy fire cult is correct, so I prefer to distance my theories from the R'hollorism. If fire defeats ice, the balance isnt necessarily restored, because a Great Summer could follow. A flood of fire depends on whom/what its directed towards. Even if Dany wishes to be a defender, the dragons might refuse to fight the Others out of fear of ice/cold. There is foreshadowing for them being picky about their conditions. This would push her back into her invader role, mostly in the South.

Azor Ahai as a "warrior of fire" could be directed toward people or zombies or both. Fire and Blood is Dany's slogan but its difficult to apply "blood" to a corpse animated by ice magic.

Azor Ahai could just be another iteration of Aegon the Conqueror, who is a woman. I dont think the zombie war is really the main focus of the story anyway. If it was, Dany would easily defeat them, save the day, and folks could go home, and the story could just be a cheap LOTR imitation. Since the story is about the choices people make under stress, GRRM seems to be spending a lot of time giving Dany multiple opportunities to make a choice different from her ancestors. Book 1- Dothraki life vs. Westeros. Book 2- Valar Tolerro vs. Westeros. Book 3 - Slavers Bay vs. Westeros. Book 5 - Meereen vs. Westeros. In each of these places she could have found "home" and settled. Dany has no roots so she uproots people wherever she goes, whether intentionally or not. She's chasing a deluded and idealized dream, one she'll never find because she has to conquer first. As she gets closer she gets further away from it, which is what happened in her dragon dream in Book 1. Typical tragic device.

The Others make it easy for her; they're a free pass to find her "home" without having to kill people for it. It may be taken up for a time but the author will give her another choice and she'll return back to her original dilemma, "but first she must conquer." Tyrion says we dance on the strings of our ancestors like puppets and GRRM as a history major would know that more often than not, history is repeated. 

Helping people fight during an apocalypse isnt really her role (she'll learn about the Others very late in the story), just like freeing slaves and being a queen of peace isnt what fits her either. Her sweet moments are the exceptions to her preferred disposition since Viserys died--which is being wronged and aggrieved about what was stolen from her. "Women do not forget. Women do not forgive." Dany's best literary comparison in my view would be Smaug. He also fulfilled a prophecy. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 10/2/2018 at 6:07 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

The person who is exactly like Cersei are Catelyn and Sansa.  Daenerys is nothing like Cersei.  I don't think you and I are reading the same book.  Daenerys woke those dragons herself.  She earned her own khalasar.  She rescued the Unsullied from their tormentors on her own.  Those were not the work of the good 'ol boy network.  Those accomplishments are Daenerys Targaryen's and hers alone.   She is actually the most accomplished person in the novels.  

 

 

Agreed.  Cersei and Sansa are the most alike. 

[Bowen 747]

On 10/3/2018 at 6:39 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

True and it gives her the justification to execute someone.  The execution is carried out to not only punish but to hatch dragons, bring death to her enemies, and to resurrect a person she loves like her son.  The fires are not to resurrect the husbands.  They are part of the offering to make the magic work.

I agree with the multi-purpose intent to the fires.  The traitor's death is a necessary ingredient for the miracle to work.  MMD was special in her own way.  We don't know her genetic background but maybe she has magic in her blood.  Tyrion doesn't really.  Mellisandre and Jon have magic in their blood.  They are good choices to fuel the fires.  I don't think the third fire will be lit until near the end of the story.  Burning Jon will help bring in the new spring.  Slaying the winter and melting ice.  The story will end right before the arrival of the spring.  

[Amris]

On 10/4/2018 at 3:37 PM, Megorova said:

Dany woke those dragons with guidance from Mirri Maz Duur and Shiera Seastar.

When Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Shiera Seastar was there with her and Mirri, and helped Dany to give birth, and stayed with her for hours after that, talking. She was smiling and whispering stars; she was Valyrian kings with eyes color of jades (blue and green), tourmalines (there are blue and green stones, and also bi-colored stones), amethysts (some amethysts have blue color as their secondary hue), and opals (bi-colored stones, mix of blue and green) - Shiera Seastar had bi-colored eyes, one blue and the other one green, and those swords of pale fire in hands of those kings was actually a glass candle in hands of Shiera Seastar; she was seen by Dany as Viserys, who was twisting her nipples (nipple stimulation is one of methods how to naturally induce labour)

In the House of the Undying, in one of visions, Dany saw a dragon bursting out of Mirri's brow. On brow/forehead is located six chakra, which is also called chakra of wisdom, or third eye. Shiera Seastar is the Three-eyed Crow, and she was Mirri's teacher, together with maester Marwyn (who was not only teaching western medicine to Mirri, but also learning magic from Shiera, icluding how to use glass candles. So he was also there, with Mirri and Shiera, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego. Dany saw him as Jorah, he said to her, that Rhaegar was the last dragon.)

[snip]

Do you have evidence that it was Shiera Seastar who guided Dany and did those things you claim she did? I am asking because you are sounding very sure.

It's not that I think it is a bad idea or impossible. I kinda like your ideas. But I don't recall any evidence for it.

The gem-stones you mention are just that: gem stones. They are not described as bi-colored. Aside from that - even if a bi-colored gem-stone had appeared in the HotU (which it didn't) calling that evidence for an involvement of Shiera Seastar would be a stretch. At best.

That a sword of pale fire could actually be a glass candle that got mistaken is a cool idea. But without evidence it is no more than that: an idea. One among many other possibilities. (We do know that pale swords really do play important roles in ASOIAF so it would make sense if Dany actually did have a vision of a pale sword. So is there evidence that it was not actually a sword but a glass candle?

That Dany sees Shiera as Viserys? Is there evidence that when Dany had a vision of Viserys it wasn't actually just that: a vision of Viserys? Dany has other visions of Viserys too after all.

There are other possibilities or people that could have influenced Dany's dreams. What makes you so sure it must have been Shiera Sheastar and not someone or anything else like say Bloodraven, Quaithe, Ashara, Rhaella, Mirri, the dragon babies communicating with Dany's own subconscious and Targaryen heritage - or simply fever coupled with a drug?

 

[Guest]

Red priests have crazy crack ideas for how to save the world. Azor Ahai didn't end the Long Night the first time. I think the AA legend about Nissa Nissa is just thrown in there to make Stannis think he has to kill Shireen. If it didnt work for Stannis, it won't work for other people.

I think GRRM would want people to have to use their brains/heads and actually outsmart the enemy.

Any idiot can "sacrifice" himself or kill his family member. 

At this rate, if all you have to do to save the world is kill a family member or a lover, Tyrion should be Azor Ahai twice over. 

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, Amris said:

There are other possibilities or people that could have influenced Dany's dreams. What makes you so sure it must have been Shiera Sheastar and not someone or anything else like say Bloodraven, Quaithe, Ashara, Rhaella, Mirri, the dragon babies communicating with Dany's own subconscious and Targaryen heritage - or simply fever coupled with a drug?

First of all - Quaithe IS Shiera Seastar. And the three-eyed crow.

Shiera Seastar is GRRM's parallel to water fairy, Nimue, from Arthurian legends, and Bloodraven is a parallel to wizard Merlin. Nimue was Merlin's lover, she lured him into a trap, and with usage of magic binded him to a tree in a cave, and left him there. So it could be, that Shiera binded Bloodraven to the Weirwood. They are also a parallel to GRRM's legend about Night's King, who was Lord Commander of Night's Watch, and his Corpse Queen.

19 hours ago, Amris said:

Do you have evidence that it was Shiera Seastar who guided Dany and did those things you claim she did?

I don't have access now to books text, so I can't post quotes, so just read Dany's chapter in AGOT, the one in which she was dreaming first half of the chapter, and in second half found out about what happened to her son and to Drogo. And read fragment from Dany's last chapter in ADWD, when she was dreaming.

Combined information from those chapters is the proof, that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that she was with Dany, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego.

In ADWD Dany hears whispering stars, that tell her what Quaithe earlier told her - that stuff about going east instead of west, etc. Dany recognized that voice, that it was Quaithe. She not only heard her, she also SAW her. Because she saw her and thought, that her mask is made of starlight. In the chapter from AGOT, there were also whispering stars. Whispering and smiling stars. Thus Dany not only heard those "stars", she also saw them, because how else did she knew, that those stars were smiling? Read carefully thru that chapter - first there were stars, and then they dissapeared, and next thing that Dany saw, was that vision, in which she saw Viserys. And then she saw kings with swords of pale fire, kings that had eyes colored like jades, opals, tourmalines and amethysts. And those kings were shouting to Dany as one "Faster, faster".

This is, what I think, was actually happening in that chapter (ENTIRELY BASED ON TEXT IN THE BOOK) - with usage of magic, Mirri has summoned other people into Drogo's tent (Jorah and Dany both saw there multiple shadows, thus Mirri wasn't there alone). Those people weren't actually there, they used either glass cadles, or some other magic to "teleport" there, or to "teleport" there not their physical bodies, but only their apparitions (how Quaithe appeared to Dany three times - on board of Balerion ship, on pyramide in Meereen, and in Dothraki grass sea in ADWD).

First Quaithe was in her mask, the one that is "made of starlight", that's why Dany saw stars. But then Quaithe has removed her mask and her cape, and Dany saw her green and blue eye, and her platinum-white hair, that in Shiera's youth was silver-gold (kings, that Dany saw, had silver, gold, and platinum white hair). The only Targaryen besides Dany, that she ever saw, was Viserys, so in Dany's feavered and half-unconsciousness state (which was probably caused by drugs, that Mirri gave her, prior summoning there her ex-teachers Quiathe and maester Marwyn), she saw Shiera as Viserys. Shiera was touching Dany's breasts, because in that way she was stimulating Dany's labour. And those kings were shouting as one, because it was ONE person, not many. Furthermore, Shiera was saying to Dany not faster, faster, but - push, push. And that final leap, after Dany flew above Dothraki sea, was when her baby was born. In that chapter Dany was alternately experiensing what her body felt, and what was feeling her unborn baby. It wasn't Dany, who was running from death, thru stone arches, leaving behind her bloody footprints, it was what her baby was experiensing, while he was going thru birth canal (stone arches, "red door" <- get it? "door" into life, and flying means being born). And when near the end of her dream, Dany supposedly saw Rhaegar in his helmet, and then she saw that the face within was her own, what actually happened, is that Dany thru eyes of Rhaego, saw her own face. Newborn Rhaego saw his mother's face, after he was born, and Mirri or Shiera/Quaithe lifted him up. At that moment Dany's soul was in her baby's body, so she saw her own body, but she saw herself as Rhaegar in armor.

Also in that dream Dany saw maester Marwyn as Jorah, and as Drogo. Drogo was the only man, that touched her there, so when maester Marwyn was checking progress of her labour, she saw him as Drogo. And later she saw him as Jorah, because, same as Jorah, Marwyn said, that Rhaegar was the last dragon. And, probably, also because both Jorah and Marwyn are men from Westeros. Prior that, Jorah was the only Westrosian, that Dany knew. So when she saw another Westerosian man, in her drugged mind, she assosiated him with Jorah.

Dany's feavered dream was based, on what actually happened to her, but in her dream she saw things differently, from how they actually happened. In her subconsciousness Shiera was replaced by stars (when she was in her mask), and by Viserys and Valyrian kings with blue and green eyes (when she took off her starlight mask), and maester Marwyn by Drogo and Jorah.

I don't have other evidences, but all of it is written there, in the book. My interpretation of that text could be wrong, but I doubt it.

So we'll have to wait until GRRM will write it in plain text, to get confirmation or disproof of my interpretation.

19 hours ago, Amris said:

The gem-stones you mention are just that: gem stones. They are not described as bi-colored. Aside from that - even if a bi-colored gem-stone had appeared in the HotU (which it didn't) calling that evidence for an involvement of Shiera Seastar would be a stretch. At best.

Not bi-colored. Not all four, just opals and tourmalines, are gemstones that could be both blue and green at the same time. Though there is green jade, and blue jade. And amethysts has color variations with blue as their secondary hue.

Prior I realised, what that dream was about, I was thinking about possible interpretations, of what that dream could mean, who could be those Kings. For example, one of forum members interpret, that those kings are previous incarnations of Azor Ahai, and Dany is also Azor Ahai, or something like that. I didn't knew what are colors of opals, tourmalines, etc, so I checked Wikipedia. And from there I found out about that blue and green coloring, and with combination of Dany's vision of Quaithe in ADWD (in which she had a mask made of starlight), and reading in the World book, that Shiera Seastar had one blue eye and one green, and that her favourite jewellery were two silver necklasses, one with star sapphires (blue), and the other with emeralds (green), I realised, that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that she was those whispering stars, not only in Dany's final chapter in ADWD, but also she was whispering stars in Dany's chapter in AGOT, because there were kings with blue and green eyes. And because of Quaithe mentioning glass candles, and because of what Sam saw at the Citadel, that glass candle was sort of making black hole in space, so, probably, glass candles could be used as "teleportation device" (that's how Quaithe got on Dany's ship, in Meereen's pyramide, in Dothraki grass sea, and in Drogo's tent, while Dany was there, giving birth to Rhaego.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade#Unusual_varieties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourmaline#Color

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amethyst#Hue_and_tone

19 hours ago, Amris said:

That a sword of pale fire could actually be a glass candle that got mistaken is a cool idea. But without evidence it is no more than that: an idea. One among many other possibilities. (We do know that pale swords really do play important roles in ASOIAF so it would make sense if Dany actually did have a vision of a pale sword. So is there evidence that it was not actually a sword but a glass candle?

In TWOW in Aeron's chapter, after drinking shade of evening, he had a vision:

Spoiler

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

This is also Quaithe with glass candle.

Her being there, doesn't mean, that she is on Euron's side, that's just how Aeron interpreted what he thought he had seen.

In description of glass candle from Citadel, it was written, that it was like a sword. Add together that description (1) to Dany's vision with those kings (2), and Aeron's vision of a shadow in a woman's form (3) - 1 + 2 + 3 = glass candle is a "teleportation" device, and when it is activated, from the side it looks similar to sword burning with pale white fire, and the person that is using this device, doesn't actually physically teleport in space, only his/her spirit/mind gets teleported in a shadow form. Like those shadows, that Mirri has summoned to Drogo's tent, like Quaithe appearing to Dany three times (other people didn't heard her, nor saw her, so it seems, that thru usage of glass candle, whoever is "teleporting" his/her soul/mind could be seen only by those people to whom they are "making a phone call" <- don't know how to explain it differently, English is my fourth language, so I'm not a very good explanator). Sam described glass candle as a sword.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

On 10/4/2018 at 7:49 AM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Dany's best literary comparison in my view would be Smaug.

I always thought Viserys was Smaug in another life. He believes he's a dragon so much and claims to be one with such conviction.

50 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I don't have access now to books text, so I can't post quotes,

There is always this site if you need to find text to support a theory. https://asearchoficeandfire.com

[Wolf's Bane]

5 hours ago, Amris said:

Do you have evidence that it was Shiera Seastar who guided Dany and did those things you claim she did? I am asking because you are sounding very sure.

It's not that I think it is a bad idea or impossible. I kinda like your ideas. But I don't recall any evidence for it.

The gem-stones you mention are just that: gem stones. They are not described as bi-colored. Aside from that - even if a bi-colored gem-stone had appeared in the HotU (which it didn't) calling that evidence for an involvement of Shiera Seastar would be a stretch. At best.

That a sword of pale fire could actually be a glass candle that got mistaken is a cool idea. But without evidence it is no more than that: an idea. One among many other possibilities. (We do know that pale swords really do play important roles in ASOIAF so it would make sense if Dany actually did have a vision of a pale sword. So is there evidence that it was not actually a sword but a glass candle?

That Dany sees Shiera as Viserys? Is there evidence that when Dany had a vision of Viserys it wasn't actually just that: a vision of Viserys? Dany has other visions of Viserys too after all.

There are other possibilities or people that could have influenced Dany's dreams. What makes you so sure it must have been Shiera Sheastar and not someone or anything else like say Bloodraven, Quaithe, Ashara, Rhaella, Mirri, the dragon babies communicating with Dany's own subconscious and Targaryen heritage - or simply fever coupled with a drug?

 

I don't think he has any evidence for it.  Just like he doesn't have credible evidence for Rhaego still being alive.  I don't hold that against him.  He's just another fan who leans towards an idea and tries to build a theory around it.  

I don't believe Shiera guided Dany on how to hatch those dragons.  Mirri Maz Duur provided the motivation and the justification for the needed trade.  A life for a life.  

The sword of pale fire is one of the ideas presented in a theory here.  

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150476-daenerys-is-azor-ahai/&tab=comments#comment-8137799

There is actually not any good evidence for Shiera Seastar to still be alive.  It is possible but the evidence is actually not any good.  Just because Bloodraven is still alive is not evidence for Shiera to still be alive.  The odds are against Shiera still kicking.  

So how did Dany know how to hatch her dragons?  That is a mystery.  It is alright to have mysteries.  If I had to guess it is probably because she is special.  It is possible, but I will admit the evidence is slim, that she has the talent for prophetic dreams like her great ancestor, Daenys the Dreamer.

[Megorova]

13 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

I don't think he has any evidence for it.  Just like he doesn't have credible evidence for Rhaego still being alive.  I don't hold that against him.  He's just another fan who leans towards an idea and tries to build a theory around it.  

I'm a she, not a he.

And the best evidence of Rhaego still being alive, is that there is no evidence of his death. There's no body, and no one, except Mirri, saw the baby. So Mirri could have lied, about what actually happened, and no one was able to refute her version of events, because others were not there, when the baby was born. Jorah has brought Dany into Drogo's tent, and then he left. Because Dany was in a process of childbirth, and Jorah is a man, and not even Dany's husband or lover. Furthermore, the blood ritual was still unfinished, so Mirri allowed Jorah to leave Dany there, but she didn't allowed Jorah to stay there too. Furthermore, he was seriously wounded. Dothraki arakh has cut him to the bone, so he lost lots of blood, he was in pain, and he's not a youngster anymore. So after that he went elsewhere, to get treatment for his wounds, and then he either lost consciousness, because of pain shock or blood loss, or fell asleep, because of medicine, that "doctors" gave him. It was Dany's first pregnancy, so the process of chilbirth lasted for many hours. So there's no way, that Jorah was there and keeping vigil, thru all those long hours. NOT IN HIS STATE! absolutely impossible! Furthermore, no one besides Jorah, didn't went inside that tent. At least until everything was over, and the baby was already born (and probably already kidnapped, maybe by Quaithe <- this is that treason for blood. Shiera Seastar betrayed Dany, by stealing her child, because she needed someone with blood of dragonlords. Though Rhaego is a halfbreed, half-Dothraki and half-dragonseed, so it's questionable whether he was kidnapped by his aunt Shiera, or by his Dothraki relatives, so he is either in Asshai, or in Vaes Dothrak). On the night of blood ritual, 30000 Dothraki left that camp, together with Khal Pono. So whatever during that night was happening inside Drogo's tent, other people in that camp had more imminent problems to deal with. And all Dothraki, including Dany's maids, were too afraid to go into Drogo's tent, so they didn't knew, what was happening there, and thus no one actually saw Rhago's birth (besides Mirri and her "shadow"-guests).

Besides, what Mirri said about Rhaego, there is no other evidences of his death. Though there are two evidences, that he may be still alive: 1. In the House of the Undying Dany saw grown up Rhaego, in a vision of the future, 2. The prophecy about the Stallion that will mount the world said that Rhaego will unite all Dothraki into one khalasar, and thousands years ago Vaes Dothrak was build for him and his people. All those dosh khaleen couldn't have been wrong for thousands of years. They predicted his birth, and they predicted, that Dany will give birth to the Stallion.

So 1+2 = Rhaego is alive, and he will grow up, and rule over all Dothraki, like it was said in the ancient prophecy.

So there's one evidence of Rhaego's death, only what Mirri said. But there's two evidences of him being alive - vision caused by shade of evening, and ancient Dothraki prophecy. Some things, that Dany saw under influence of that substance, proved to be correct. For example, Red Wedding, Rhaegar's death, Rhaegar naming his son Aegon, slaves calling Dany their mother, Stannis proclaiming himself Azor Ahai, etc. Thus it's likely, that the vision of grown up Rhaego, is a vision of the future, that will actually happen. And also, ancient prophecies usually tend to be correct. For example, prophecy about Second Long Night, that it will begin not long after Red Comet will pass near Planetos. The comet appeared in late 298, and shortly after that appeared the Others. 

14 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

There is actually not any good evidence for Shiera Seastar to still be alive.  It is possible but the evidence is actually not any good.  Just because Bloodraven is still alive is not evidence for Shiera to still be alive.  The odds are against Shiera still kicking.  

Shiera was a user of blood magic, she bathed in blood <- this is what Aegon V said about her. In The World book it is written, that she was a sorceress. Her mother, Serenei of Lys, was also a sorceress. And according to rumours, she (Serenei) looked much younger than her real age. So most likely, she also was a user of blood magic. Thanks to those blood sacrifices, both Serenei and Shiera stayed young. And Shiera was more powerfull than her mother. So the odds are, that Shiera is not only still kicking, but also that she looks much much younger than her real age (115+).

[Unacosamedarisa]

34 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And the best evidence of Rhaego still being alive, is that there is no evidence of his death. 

Jorah tells Dany that Rhaego never lived, and that "the women say" this. Not just Mirri, but likely Dany's handmaidens, or other Dothraki women. It's never contradicted, or hinted that there was something else going on. Rhaego has never appeared again, except as a vision... In the HotU. And, that vision is one of the 3 deaths that have made Dany who she is at that time... Rhaegar, Viserys, and Rhaego. 

Unless there's evidence, in the form of quotes from the text, that show this continent spanning conspiracy for Shiera to plant people in Dany's way to kidnap her baby, I'm not going to buy it. 

Just because something could be a lie, doesn't mean that it is a lie.

34 minutes ago, Megorova said:

But there's two evidences of him being alive - vision caused by shade of evening, and ancient Dothraki prophecy.

But look at that vision, in context. Here is the vision of (apparently) Rhaego, along with Viserys and Rhaegar... 

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death

 These are visions of Viserys, who is dead, Rhaegar, who is dead, and Rhaego, who is also dead. The vision is not proof that Rhaego is alive... it's there to show Dany where she has come from... she's the product, in a way, of all these dead relatives, and must take on all of their roles, all the destinies attached to them, are now attached to her... In place of Viserys she has to reconquer Westeros for the Targaryens and reclaim her families birthright. In place of Rhaegar she has to bring about the return of Dragons, find the other 2 heads, and lead them for whatever they're needed for. And, in place of Rhaego she has to unite the Khalasars together, and become the greatest Khal. 

Also, we should know by now that prophecy is never simple, rarely literal, not absolute, and can't be interpreted just like that. Maybe, the Dosh Khaleen were wrong or lying... the whole Stallion thing was just to curry favour with Drogo, one of the greatest Khals. Maybe, the prophecy was wrong all along, just like the PtwP got hung up on the gender and became Prince in place of Dragon (referring to a Targaryen of either gender), and it shouldn't be "the Stallion who mounts the world" but something without gender. Maybe they got it wrong, and it referred to Dany, not Rhaego. Or to Drogo, or to Drogo and Dany together. Whatever the case, just because the prophecy exists, doesn't mean Rhaego is protected by it in any way... Rhaegar also thought he was protected by prophecy, until Robert caved his ribs in on the Trident. 

34 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Shiera was a user of blood magic, she bathed in blood <- this is what Aegon V said about her.

And it's said that Bloodraven could turn into mist, or a one eyed dog, and that Wildlings are slavers and Giants eat people etc. Doesn't mean these things are true. Shiera Seastar has been mentioned once in the main novels, and that one time it's in relation to Bittersteel and Bloodraven's rivalry. She may be revealed later, or be revealed to be someone we've met already, but there really doesn't seem to be any of the usual clues and breadcrumbs for that identity. 

Also, I'm not 100% certain, but I don't think George had conceived of the Blackfyre situation until after writing ACoK (certainly after AGoT), so I do not think there's any intentional clues to Shiera's kidnap conspiracy in Dany's AGoT chapters. 

 

[Lollygag]

On 10/2/2018 at 9:10 AM, Megorova said:

His time was limited, the rose was withering, and he was supposed to die together with that rose <- in Disney's version and in the original fairytale. So the conditions to lift the curse was to find someone who will fall in love with the Beast prior his 18(?) birthday (in French version he was a prince, that was cursed by a witch or a fairy, when he was 12, if I remember it correctly ).

The ending is BAD. And in the middle of the series the MC was changed <- I don't like things like that in books or movies.

Dany didn't had to become the Breaker of Chains, etc., the only thing, that she did, out of what was predicted in the Prophecy, is that she will wake dragons from stone. Her trip to Slaver's Bay is not part of what Azor Ahai was supposed to do.

She didn't had to marry with Hizdahr, she did that only because he was offering to her a solution, how to deal with the Harpy and Yunkai. She was not smart or strong enough to deal with those troblemakers on her own, so she accepted Hizdahr's proposal, to marry him and to get help from him. It was her own decision, it was her own path, she's the one who chose to do so. All those predictions from the House of the Undying, they are not the same thing, as the prophecy about Azor Ahai and Long Night. The Undyings' predictions only told Dany about her own future path. She could have made different decisions, but she chose to do what she did. If with Drogo she had no choice, whether to marry with him, or not to marry, then with Hizdahr, it was her own decision. She could have left Meereen, and went elsewhere, but she wanted to be the Queen now, not to wait until she will finally become the Queen of 7K, and that's IF she will ever become Queen of 7K.

Dany does repeat Cersei's path, because, same as Cersei, Dany want to become Queen. Cersei marryed with Robert Baratheon, even though she loved Jaime and Rhaegar, but to become the Queen she loved more. There's a price tag on the Queen's crown, and that price is to marry with whomever will help her (Cersei, Dany, Margaery) to get to that crown. If they are not smart or strong enough to get that crown on their own conditions (like Robert did, like Aegon I did - thru conquest), then they have to pay the price. But it's not like they were forced to take that crown. 

Dany is exactly like Cersei - both has chosen to pay the price for the Queen's crown. But it's not like either of them were destined to become Queens. No? If Dany is Azor Ahai, then it wouldn't matter, whether she's a Queen or not a Queen. That's what she wants, not something that she has to be. She could have chosen different path, like, for example, when Illyrio has sent those three ships, to bring Dany and her dragons to Pentos, instead of going to Illyrio, she just took those ships, and went to Astapor. So she could have done something else with the Harpy and slavers problems, solved them differently, without choosing marriage with Hizdahr, as the easiest solution. GRRM makes Dany to repeat Cersei's path, because Dany isn't any different from Cersei. Both wanted to get the crown, more than anything, and both did it thru their men/thru bed. Maybe in later books Dany will become more independent, but so far she is stereotypical Disney princess - men solve her problems, and get for her what she wants.

Ah, ok. The Beast wouldn't be an exception then to my original point as the Beast was just cured of a curse, not set up to do remarkable things in the world.

I admit, I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here in regards to my point. If Dany was destined to marry Drago, then she gained nothing from that marriage in itself. It set her on a certain and very important path, but it wasn't Drago or the Dothraki who had anything to do with Bride of Fire or any sort of destiny. That was luck in getting the eggs, luck in coming across Mirri, and Dany did the rest. Marrying Drago put certain things into her path. We see the same with Hizzy. Will Slaver's Bay be important to her arc overall? Probably not in itself. But it does put certain things into her path which probably will be important. Like with Drago, I don't think Dany will see any real substantive benefits with Hizzy beyond the point that she's tied up in Meereen. It's a very different situation with Cersei who gains the entirety of her power from her marriage and her name.

So I still don't agree that Bride of Fire = Bride of a string of dudes that she has to marry. I still hold that hinging her destiny on who she will marry undermines her arc and contradicts points made in Cersei's arc. Basically, if she has to marry, then she's no Bride of Fire (yet), is she?

Again...

On 10/1/2018 at 3:06 PM, Lollygag said:

ACOK Tyrion V

Cersei sniffed. "I should have been born a man. I would have no need of any of you then. None of this would have been allowed to happen. How could Jaime let himself be captured by that boy? And Father, I trusted in him, fool that I am, but where is he now that he's wanted? What is he doing?"

 

[Lollygag]

On 10/4/2018 at 10:49 AM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I guess whatever happens depends on whether you believe Dany is a defender or an invader of Westeros. I think she'll be a bit of both but end up siding more with the latter.  

The Targaryens play the "doomed dynasty" role of House Capet in the Accursed Kings which GRRM has cited as a major influence. Prince Garin is a Jacques de Molnay stand-in. As legend goes, he publicly cursed King Phillip of House Capet and his descendents for torturing him and attempting to steal the Templars' wealth. The curse has been blamed for why the Capetian line ended within 5 generations because no one could produce an heir. In asoiaf there is a similar invader/defender dynamic going on, where the curse could still stand no matter what the descendents do to avoid it, where Dany is the last of the "fire lords" to fall.

I agree that Dany will be very controversial in this way. Dany swearing to remember the name of the little girl killed by Drogon and thinking of her often to only at the end of ADWD to forget her name is a heavy hint for me that she'll lean toward the latter.

ADWD Daenerys I

What he desired turned out to be gold. Dany had refused to compensate any of the Great Masters for the value of their slaves, but the Meereenese kept devising other ways to squeeze coin from her. The noble Grazdan had once owned a slave woman who was a very fine weaver, it seemed; the fruits of her loom were greatly valued, not only in Meereen, but in New Ghis and Astapor and Qarth. When this woman had grown old, Grazdan had purchased half a dozen young girls and commanded the crone to instruct them in the secrets of her craft. The old woman was dead now. The young ones, freed, had opened a shop by the harbor wall to sell their weavings. Grazdan zo Galare asked that he be granted a portion of their earnings. "They owe their skill to me," he insisted. "I plucked them from the auction bloc and gave them to the loom."

Dany listened quietly, her face still. When he was done, she said, "What was the name of the old weaver?"

"The slave?" Grazdan shifted his weight, frowning. "She was … Elza, it might have been. Or Ella. It was six years ago she died. I have owned so many slaves, Your Grace."

"Let us say Elza. Here is our ruling. From the girls, you shall have nothing. It was Elza who taught them weaving, not you. From you, the girls shall have a new loom, the finest coin can buy. That is for forgetting the name of the old woman."

 

ADWD Daenerys X

"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons."

 

On 10/4/2018 at 10:49 AM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

We're not sure if fire will save. Its only helped people in small amounts so far. Qhorin sees it as good/bad which is a balanced view. This balance is also present in dragonglass. Jojen also sees a mixture of elements as more positive than any "pure" element that stands by itself. Incest was used to make sure fire remained in its "pure, untainted" form, so thats clearly a negative. Jon is a "half-breed" which is closer to a balance. Val sees fire as fickle. The direwolves fear it. Fire and wood (earth magic) also appear oppositional. The destruction of the Dragonpit and Hardhome burned so hot they were called "False Dawns." Sallador warns that too much light can hurt the eyes. Doran wants to use it for vengeance. Melisandre and Selyse love it too much. If Dany is a savior then the crazy fire cult is correct, so I prefer to distance my theories from the R'hollorism. If fire defeats ice, the balance isnt necessarily restored, because a Great Summer could follow. A flood of fire depends on whom/what its directed towards. Even if Dany wishes to be a defender, the dragons might refuse to fight the Others out of fear of ice/cold. There is foreshadowing for them being picky about their conditions. This would push her back into her invader role, mostly in the South. 

Azor Ahai as a "warrior of fire" could be directed toward people or zombies or both. Fire and Blood is Dany's slogan but its difficult to apply "blood" to a corpse animated by ice magic.

 

 

In Garin's curse, water saves, but at a cost which destroys themselves in turn. It looks like fire is set up to work the same way as you point out above. Disaster comes when opposites are opposed rather than balanced. Another similarity between dragons and real world nuclear weapons.

On 10/4/2018 at 10:49 AM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Azor Ahai could just be another iteration of Aegon the Conqueror, who is a woman. I dont think the zombie war is really the main focus of the story anyway. If it was, Dany would easily defeat them, save the day, and folks could go home, and the story could just be a cheap LOTR imitation. Since the story is about the choices people make under stress, GRRM seems to be spending a lot of time giving Dany multiple opportunities to make a choice different from her ancestors. Book 1- Dothraki life vs. Westeros. Book 2- Valar Tolerro vs. Westeros. Book 3 - Slavers Bay vs. Westeros. Book 5 - Meereen vs. Westeros. In each of these places she could have found "home" and settled. Dany has no roots so she uproots people wherever she goes, whether intentionally or not. She's chasing a deluded and idealized dream, one she'll never find because she has to conquer first. As she gets closer she gets further away from it, which is what happened in her dragon dream in Book 1. Typical tragic device.

The Others make it easy for her; they're a free pass to find her "home" without having to kill people for it. It may be taken up for a time but the author will give her another choice and she'll return back to her original dilemma, "but first she must conquer." Tyrion says we dance on the strings of our ancestors like puppets and GRRM as a history major would know that more often than not, history is repeated. 

Helping people fight during an apocalypse isnt really her role (she'll learn about the Others very late in the story), just like freeing slaves and being a queen of peace isnt what fits her either. Her sweet moments are the exceptions to her preferred disposition since Viserys died--which is being wronged and aggrieved about what was stolen from her. "Women do not forget. Women do not forgive." Dany's best literary comparison in my view would be Smaug. He also fulfilled a prophecy.  

 

I do think the zombie war is a focus of the story but I think it's in a way which isn't what it looks like right now. As set up now, a good vs evil conflict where grey characters and grey situations are put into clean categories doesn't fit in at all with the story we've received to date which is why I think how we imagine this to go is very much off the mark. I'll wait and see. GRRM said that the Others are Ice and Dany is Fire, and the series title is ASOIAF, so there will be a run-in there, I'm sure. The Undying, Others, and Stonemen all have a lot of similarities when you really look so I do think that they are all aspects of the same thing. Wights, stonemen and the undying were all severely dehydrated and blue/gray which points to holding back water, or water magic. And the Undying sought to end Dany.

As for the rest, this would be an interesting turn in her story. Dany has a deep, deep hatred of slavers but she seems to lack understanding that it's very connected to her own feelings of Viserys' treatment of her and of being sold to Drago. Very negative and deeply buried feelings have a bad way of manifesting unintentionally. Also, Dany's Viserys hallucination also points to more issues which Dany is pushing down. Viserys says she hasn't grieved. There's a lot of buried guilt. I think these support your idea that Dany will in the future become very focused on what was taken from her in a negative way. This could be where Tyrion steps in, he who also has had things taken from him. I wonder if they'll try to work through things together or egg each other on?

 

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Jorah tells Dany that Rhaego never lived, and that "the women say" this. Not just Mirri, but likely Dany's handmaidens, or other Dothraki women. It's never contradicted, or hinted that there was something else going on.

<- That's also speculation.

This is who said what, and how was it said:

• "Her handmaid lowered her eyes. "The boy . . . he did not live, Khaleesi." Her voice was a frightened whisper."

The way in which Jhiqui said it, with lowered eyes, and in frightened whisper, could be a hint, that she was lying to Dany about what happened, and she was afraid, that Dany won't belive her.

• "She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet . . . she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been. "

Most likely, after Rhaego was born, and Shiera was staying with him, she told to Dany, that she will take her baby, because R'hllor wants him, so Rhaego will be taken to Asshai, where he will serve, for the sake of greater good.

• "After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars."
• "She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin."

Her son is a champion of R'hllor, one of three heads of the dragon, the living fire, Red Priest (that fire from his mouth and burning heart are attributes/symbols of Red Priests), Khal of khals (like Jesus was King of kings and Lord of lords <- Rhaego is a parallel to Jesus. Most likely, he will return to his mother on third year after his "death"). So Shiera/whispering stars said to Dany, that she will take her child away, but he's going to be fine, and there's no point to be sad, just because he is gone. Probably they used magic, or some medicine, to make her to forget, what actually happened that night, but on subconsciousness level, she knew, that her baby wasn't dead, and isn't there. Thus when she regained consciousness, she didn't asked to bring her baby. And even when she regained consciousness second time, she asked about him, but it was more like an afterthought, than something urgent or important. Because she was ordered by Shiera, to forget about her son. Because her mission was to become the Mother of dragons, she was supposed to hatch those dragon eggs, not to raise her baby. He was taken either by Shiera to Asshai, to serve to R'hllor, or was taken by Dothraki, to become the Stallion that will mount the world, or both of those things <- that's because in the HotU Dany saw Rhaego under banner with fiery stallion <- that's a combination of Fire God symbol and Dothraki symbol.

Quote

"Tell me how my child died."
"He never lived, my princess. The women say . . . " He faltered, and Dany saw how the flesh hung loose on him, and the way he limped when he moved.
"Tell me. Tell me what the women say."
He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. "They say the child was . . . "
She waited, but Ser Jorah could not say it. His face grew dark with shame. He looked half a corpse himself.
"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."
Darkness, Dany thought. The terrible darkness sweeping up behind to devour her. If she looked back she was lost. "My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."
"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Duur, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi."
"Only shadows," Ser Jorah husked, but Dany could hear the doubt in his voice. "I saw, maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows. "

Jorah himself saw nothing. And he didn't said, that he himself saw something. All he knows about Rhaego, is based entirely on what some unnamed women say. What women exactly? None of Dany's handmaids said, that they saw Dany's baby, or what happened with him. All they know about it, is also entirely based on what Mirri told them.

Mirri was in that tent, with Drogo. When Jorah brought Dany there, he saw there only shadows. Then he left Dany there, and went out. Dany was staying there alone with Mirri, and half-dead Drogo, and then came the shadows (Quaithe, Marwyn). Until the baby was born, and Mirri came out of Drogo's tent, to tell to Dothraki, about what supposedly happened to Dany's child, and Dany's handmaids were allowed to go there and tend to Dany, all that time they were staying outside. And based on Mirri's own words, when she pulled the baby out, his body immediately disintegrated. Thus, when she came out of that tent, to call Dany's handmaids, the baby was already gone (taken away).

Also Jorah being unable to say, what is possibly a lie about Rhaego's fate, and his face becoming dark with shame, could both be hints, that he himself saw nothing, but had to lie to Dany, to convince her, that her baby is gone. Maybe Rhaego was taken by Khal Pono, but Jorah was unable to prevent it. So he lied to Dany, about what really happened, to prevent her from trying to go after Pono, to take the baby back. Jorah and Mirri agreed beforehand, on what he will tell to Dany. But he was ashamed to lie to her, and in the end was unable to say it. So Mirri had to help him out, and told the lie herself.

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

And, that vision is one of the 3 deaths that have made Dany who she is at that time... Rhaegar, Viserys, and Rhaego. 

GROWN UP Rhaego.

Yes, he will die, though it will happen many years later. Third vision is about the future.

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Unless there's evidence, in the form of quotes from the text, that show this continent spanning conspiracy for Shiera to plant people in Dany's way to kidnap her baby, I'm not going to buy it. 

There was no need for Shiera to plant any people on Dany's path, it's just happened so that Shiera's ex-disciple, Mirri Maz Duur, was on the path of Dothraki horde, when they were conquering those lands for Dany. And when Mirri needed help, she summoned her ex-teacher. It was coinsidence (or fate), that Mirri's ex-teacher, shadowbinder Quaithe, turned out to be Dany's relative, and one of dragonseeds, Shiera Seastar.

Though Jorah was indeed planted amongst Dany's people, but it was done by Illyrio and Varys, not by Shiera. But if one of characters can plant his/her people where he/she wants them, then why others can't? They can.

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

But look at that vision, in context. Here is the vision of (apparently) Rhaego, along with Viserys and Rhaegar... 

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death

 These are visions of Viserys, who is dead, Rhaegar, who is dead, and Rhaego, who is also dead.

WILL be dead, YEARS later, when he will be an ADULT.

In those sets of visions, they are not in chronological order, but because some of those things already happened, it's a key to figure out the proper chronology.

So if we will place them in chronological order, not in order, in which Dany saw them, then this is how it happened/will happen:

1. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. - Robert's Rebellion, Rhaegar's death.
2. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. - Robert's Rebellion, Jon's birth.
3. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. - after Robert's Rebellion, Jon growing up at Winterfell.
4. Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. - Dany's wedding.
5. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. - months after Dany's wedding.
6. Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. - some time after Visery's death.
7. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. - didn't happened yet, will happen prior Dany will leave Essos.
8. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. - this will be, probably, shortly prior Dany's arrival to Westeros, fAegon proclaiming himself lost Targaryen prince.
9. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. - distant future, with grown up Rhaego.

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Whatever the case, just because the prophecy exists, doesn't mean Rhaego is protected by it in any way... Rhaegar also thought he was protected by prophecy, until Robert caved his ribs in on the Trident.  

By the time of Robert's Rebellion, Rhaegar already knew, that he is not the promised Prince, he thought, that it was his Aegon. His opinion, about Aegon being the one, was based on comet passing above King's Landing, on the night when Aegon was conceived. But he was wrong, because the prophecy was about bleeding stars - Red comet, not just any comet. Thus Aegon wasn't the promised Prince, same as Rhaegar himself.

And the prophecy on which Rhaegar's opinion was based, also included part about "three heads has the dragon", which means, that there are three people with dragon blood, and that all three of them together is the Dragon. That's like Biblical Holy Trinity, only GRRM is using the Mother, the Son, and the Holy Ghost instead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

And it's said that Bloodraven could turn into mist, or a one eyed dog, and that Wildlings are slavers and Giants eat people etc. Doesn't mean these things are true.

Those things were said by people, that were either Bloodraven's enemies, or didn't even knew him, while that, bathing in blood thing about Shiera, was said by someone, who knew her his entire life, and was even bloodrelated to her. Thus Egg's words are more credible, than what those other people said, and he knew the truth, and there was no reason for him to say, that Shiera is bathing in blood, if that wasn't so.

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Shiera Seastar has been mentioned once in the main novels, and that one time it's in relation to Bittersteel and Bloodraven's rivalry. She may be revealed later, or be revealed to be someone we've met already, but there really doesn't seem to be any of the usual clues and breadcrumbs for that identity. 

Also, I'm not 100% certain, but I don't think George had conceived of the Blackfyre situation until after writing ACoK (certainly after AGoT), so I do not think there's any intentional clues to Shiera's kidnap conspiracy in Dany's AGoT chapters. 

That's the root of the problem, why you don't understand -> the thing is, is that it isn't necessary for Bloodraven+Shiera to be a part of a Blackfyre plotline, they are an entirely self-sufficient plotline by themselves.

For example - Bloodraven loved Shiera, but she (according to the World book) many times refused to marry him (same as Nimue refused Merlin's advances). And later, when Bloodraven was sent to The Wall, Shiera went after him, and same as Corpse Queen, has lured him on the other side of The Wall, where later she binded him to the Weirwood network in that cave (same how Nimue has binded Merlin to the tree, in the cave, and left him there).

Then later, when Blackfyres were added into the plot, GRRM added that Bittersteel was one of Shiera's admirers, so him and Bloodraven frequently fought over her. Which doesn't influence in any way that previous plotline, in which Bloodraven and Shiera were without addition of Blackfyres.

How about this? -> Shiera and Bloodraven, as an independent plot, without Blackfyres (that were added into the series later).

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

As for the rest, this would be an interesting turn in her story. Dany has a deep, deep hatred of slavers but she seems to lack understanding that it's very connected to her own feelings of Viserys' treatment of her and of being sold to Drago. Very negative and deeply buried feelings have a bad way of manifesting unintentionally. Also, Dany's Viserys hallucination also points to more issues which Dany is pushing down. Viserys says she hasn't grieved. There's a lot of buried guilt. I think these support your idea that Dany will in the future become very focused on what was taken from her in a negative way. This could be where Tyrion steps in, he who also has had things taken from him. I wonder if they'll try to work through things together or egg each other on?

I agree, but I don't think she has a hatred of slavers right from the start, she just doesnt like brutality. Ironically, she responds in kind with more brutality. This paradox can be seen in her hatred of the fighting in the pits, while not really processing how Drogon created more violence than any tournament could. I don't really consider her an abolitionist or anything because her hatred of slavery only developed when she heard about the brutality toward Unsullied. If she leaves Essos then she's not really committed to the cause of ending slavery (if she was, she would stay and make it her life's work). She also uses "If I look back I'm lost" as a coping mechanism but it's also not a healthy one. So yes I think this is developing a lot of negative adaptive traits like Tyrion's where both feel like the world has stolen a possible life from them. While Tyrion is the realist and Dany is the idealist in the realm of politics, in terms of personal psychology they both have a lot in common.

[Victor Newman]

 

On 10/5/2018 at 7:25 PM, Wolf's Bane said:

I don't think he has any evidence for it.  Just like he doesn't have credible evidence for Rhaego still being alive.  I don't hold that against him.  He's just another fan who leans towards an idea and tries to build a theory around it.  

I don't believe Shiera guided Dany on how to hatch those dragons.  Mirri Maz Duur provided the motivation and the justification for the needed trade.  A life for a life.  

The sword of pale fire is one of the ideas presented in a theory here.  

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150476-daenerys-is-azor-ahai/&tab=comments#comment-8137799

There is actually not any good evidence for Shiera Seastar to still be alive.  It is possible but the evidence is actually not any good.  Just because Bloodraven is still alive is not evidence for Shiera to still be alive.  The odds are against Shiera still kicking.  

So how did Dany know how to hatch her dragons?  That is a mystery.  It is alright to have mysteries.  If I had to guess it is probably because she is special.  It is possible, but I will admit the evidence is slim, that she has the talent for prophetic dreams like her great ancestor, Daenys the Dreamer.

The idea came from Daenerys herself.  Mirri might have accidentally given a clue when she said "only death can pay for life" statement.  This one little clue was enough for a smart kid like Dany to put the complex puzzle together.  The dragons are her lightbringer.  

[Damon_Tor]

On 10/3/2018 at 8:52 PM, Lollygag said:

Drago didn't sire any children on Dany either.

Everyone seems so sure about that...

[Lollygag]

12 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Everyone seems so sure about that...

Ah, I thought you were one who thought Rhaego was alive but I wasn't sure I was recalling it correctly. I don't rule it out technically, but I don't see any point to it either. We'll see. But in the meantime, it's not canon. It would be sort of weird to set up a prophesy on something we've been told different about anyhow.

[Lollygag]

On 10/1/2018 at 12:34 AM, Lollygag said:

A blue(-eyed Jafer) Flower(s) grew (rose) from a chink in a wall of ice (ice cell), and filled the air with sweetness (death).

Here we have the wights directly linked to the blue-eyed dead who rose. A play on words of which GRRM is fond.

ADWD Jon XII

"Oh, I do." The grin melted away like snow in summer. "I am not the man I was at Ruddy Hall. Seen too much death, and worse things too. My sons …" Grief twisted Tormund's face. "Dormund was cut down in the battle for the Wall, and him still half a boy. One o' your king's knights did for him, some bastard all in grey steel with moths upon his shield. I saw the cut, but my boy was dead before I reached him. And Torwynd … it was the cold claimed him. Always sickly, that one. He just up and died one night. The worst o' it, before we ever knew he'd died he rose pale with them blue eyes. Had to see to him m'self. That was hard, Jon." Tears shone in his eyes. "He wasn't much of a man, truth be told, but he'd been me little boy once, and I loved him."

Dany isn't going to have a run-in with Jafer Flowers, but she's on track to have a run-in with the wights.

 

Did you ever notice that Jafer Flowers is mentioned with his full name or last name repeatedly but Othor is never given a last name. Flowers is only a bastard name. Not important. Other flower mentions come up like wounds blossoming, smelling like pansy flowers, etc.

The wights are repeatedly linked to blue.

“ ‘Othor,’ announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, ‘beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers.’ He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue blue eyes.  ‘They were Ben Stark’s men, both of them.’ My uncle’s men, Jon thought numbly. He remembered how he’d pleaded to ride with them. Gods, I was such a green boy. If he had taken me, it might be me lying here…”

Jafer was placed into a chink in a wall of ice.

“The dead men were carried to one of the storerooms along the base of the Wall, a dark cold cell chiseled from the ice and used to keep meat and grain and sometimes even beer.”

I just found this and it goes to a double meaning of rose the flower and rose the verb. GRRM was raised Catholic and it shows in places in the books.

https://classroom.synonym.com/flowers-associated-christ-meanings-5274.html

Quote

Rose

A rose has symbolic meanings in many religions, including Christianity and Catholicism. For Catholics, the rose serves as a symbol of the rosary, which Catholics use during prayer and also to commemorate several important events in Christ's life. In Christianity, the five petals of the rose symbolize all five of Christ’s wounds from the crucifixion. The color of a rose also holds symbolic meaning. Typically, a white rose represents Christ’s purity and a red rose represents Christ’s sacrificial blood. When a white and red rose are placed together, the arrangement represents Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.

A white rose represents Christ's resurrection, or that Christ *rose*. So this double meaning is used in Catholicism. Does the blue flower (Blue-eyed Jafer Flowers / rose) also have a double meaning in ASOIAF? Would the blue rose represent something being resurrected as well?

On 10/1/2018 at 12:34 AM, Lollygag said:

AGOT Eddard X

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

[Darth Sidious]

On 10/6/2018 at 10:40 AM, Unacosamedarisa said:

Jorah tells Dany that Rhaego never lived, and that "the women say" this. Not just Mirri, but likely Dany's handmaidens, or other Dothraki women. It's never contradicted, or hinted that there was something else going on. Rhaego has never appeared again, except as a vision... In the HotU. And, that vision is one of the 3 deaths that have made Dany who she is at that time... Rhaegar, Viserys, and Rhaego. 

Unless there's evidence, in the form of quotes from the text, that show this continent spanning conspiracy for Shiera to plant people in Dany's way to kidnap her baby, I'm not going to buy it. 

Just because something could be a lie, doesn't mean that it is a lie.

But look at that vision, in context. Here is the vision of (apparently) Rhaego, along with Viserys and Rhaegar... 

 These are visions of Viserys, who is dead, Rhaegar, who is dead, and Rhaego, who is also dead. The vision is not proof that Rhaego is alive... it's there to show Dany where she has come from... she's the product, in a way, of all these dead relatives, and must take on all of their roles, all the destinies attached to them, are now attached to her... In place of Viserys she has to reconquer Westeros for the Targaryens and reclaim her families birthright. In place of Rhaegar she has to bring about the return of Dragons, find the other 2 heads, and lead them for whatever they're needed for. And, in place of Rhaego she has to unite the Khalasars together, and become the greatest Khal. 

Also, we should know by now that prophecy is never simple, rarely literal, not absolute, and can't be interpreted just like that. Maybe, the Dosh Khaleen were wrong or lying... the whole Stallion thing was just to curry favour with Drogo, one of the greatest Khals. Maybe, the prophecy was wrong all along, just like the PtwP got hung up on the gender and became Prince in place of Dragon (referring to a Targaryen of either gender), and it shouldn't be "the Stallion who mounts the world" but something without gender. Maybe they got it wrong, and it referred to Dany, not Rhaego. Or to Drogo, or to Drogo and Dany together. Whatever the case, just because the prophecy exists, doesn't mean Rhaego is protected by it in any way... Rhaegar also thought he was protected by prophecy, until Robert caved his ribs in on the Trident. 

And it's said that Bloodraven could turn into mist, or a one eyed dog, and that Wildlings are slavers and Giants eat people etc. Doesn't mean these things are true. Shiera Seastar has been mentioned once in the main novels, and that one time it's in relation to Bittersteel and Bloodraven's rivalry. She may be revealed later, or be revealed to be someone we've met already, but there really doesn't seem to be any of the usual clues and breadcrumbs for that identity. 

Also, I'm not 100% certain, but I don't think George had conceived of the Blackfyre situation until after writing ACoK (certainly after AGoT), so I do not think there's any intentional clues to Shiera's kidnap conspiracy in Dany's AGoT chapters. 

 

Very good.  One thing that I might mention.  What is the point of the visions if they are all destined to happen?  Why does Quaithe go through the trouble of warning Daenerys if it will all happen anyway?  These possible events will only happen if some decisions are made.  They are not written in stone.  On the other hand, the prophecies were given to Daenerys in between the first and the second mounts, fires, and lies to lend credibility because the first already took place.  The prophecies are very reliable but they are also changeable.  At least that is my take on it.