The House of the Undying

[LadyOlenna]

@Lollygag

 Thank you for the quotes. I admit that you have a point, I hadn't thought about Othor and all the mentions of the word "sweet".

I had always associated only "blue eyes" with death, but maybe you're right.

Just to be clear, the only reason why I didn't quote your full posts is because it is against the rules of this forum, I wasn't trying to change the meaning of your words.

That said, I think our discussion was based on a misunderstanding, as I hadn't understood the alternative you were proposing. Now I do, and I think you could be right, even if I don't rule completely out that the "blue flower" could refer to Jon. I guess we'll see when Winds comes out. ☺

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Some reading on the symbolism of streams, rivers, etc. No spoilers. My interpretation is that this darkling stream (beginning of life) is connected to the sea of stars (the afterlife in Dothraki culture) thus Dany is crossing the boundary between life and death here...

This is really good, I like it.

It's kind of the point about mounts that they take you somewhere - the destination is more important than the mount itself - but it's a point that usually doesn't get a lot of discussion (we still seem very short of information basically).

But the silver mount taking Dany into the darkness - that seems very clear, and links beautifully into the sea of stars, and also the destination 'bed', which could be a final resting place, or a place to dream of the spirit world.

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Those blue roses are not just any flowers, they are called winter roses, so, most likely, they grow only in the north, north of Westeros, and Dany never visited Westeros, she lived her entire life in Essos, so it's likely, that she doesn't know about existence of blue roses. She saw a blue flower, but because she doesn't know about existence of winter roses, she didn't knew, that that blue flower was a rose.

So even though Dany didn't thought, that that blue flower on the wall of ice was a rose, it doesn't mean, that it wasn't a rose. No?

It doesn't mean it wasn't a rose, but it definitely isn't natural use of language which is a red flag. Roses are a specific structure, not just certain colors. Pansys look like pansys even if they're a color you've never seen. Same with tulips. If someone saw a plaid rose for the first time, most would think "WTF? A plaid rose?" Basically, the rose is identified by structure, not color.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Beauty and the Beast This is, probably, the most glaring example.

"Dune" movie and series of novels - main character had to marry with an Emperor's daughter, and to cast away his real wife, and mother of his two children, to bring peace to his planet and his people.

"The Matrix" movie, the prophecy said, that Trinity will fall in love with the Chosen One, so basically if Neo (the MC) failed to make Trinity to fall in love with him, then he would have died, and didn't became saviour of mankind.

This sort of reversed roles in fiction are rare, but not nonexistent.

P.S. Aerys had to marry with Rhaella, because that's what the prophecy required.

My memory of the details of Beauty and the Beast is rough beyond Disney’s version, but isn’t it just about how he must undo his curse? If I’m remembering right, there wasn’t anything in there about the Beast being or doing anything exceptional, so he didn’t need to marry to be or do a big prophesied thing. A woman being the solution to a man’s curse isn’t uncommon, and in certain genres is actually quite popular. The Sansan ship is based on a variation with the Hound being cured by Sansa.  But a curse and being a prophesied big deal who will do big deal things aren’t the same.

I’ve been meaning to read Dune but haven’t gotten to it yet. I’ll look out for that.

As for Matrix, I’ll keep an eye for this if I rewatch it. I’ve a great memory for books but for some reason it’s abysmal for movies.

Aerys and Rhaella wouldn’t count. Aerys was part of the prophesy, but it wasn’t about him personally. It was about someone else.

Basically I’m saying that Dany being and doing exceptional things, things which don’t come along for thousands of years, is undermined by making it required for her to marry to achieve these things. If that’s so, then she’s not that exceptional. This is all over Cersei’s arc so GRRM is aware of this.

ACOK Tyrion V

Cersei sniffed. "I should have been born a man. I would have no need of any of you then. None of this would have been allowed to happen. How could Jaime let himself be captured by that boy? And Father, I trusted in him, fool that I am, but where is he now that he's wanted? What is he doing?"

 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, LadyOlenna said:

@Lollygag

 Thank you for the quotes. I admit that you have a point, I hadn't thought about Othor and all the mentions of the word "sweet".

I had always associated only "blue eyes" with death, but maybe you're right.

Just to be clear, the only reason why I didn't quote your full posts is because it is against the rules of this forum, I wasn't trying to change the meaning of your words.

That said, I think our discussion was based on a misunderstanding, as I hadn't understood the alternative you were proposing. Now I do, and I think you could be right, even if I don't rule completely out that the "blue flower" could refer to Jon. I guess we'll see when Winds comes out. ☺

I agree, I think we've had our meanings crossed.

I actually don't rule out the blue flower being Jon ~somehow~, but there's not enough there to hang one's hat on and I do reject that it means Dany must marry him instead of being involved with him simply because she may want to. These things often have more than one meaning. If it is Jon, I suspect it may be more about Dany's wanting to be with family as it was brought up in her last ADWD chapter that she has some very unresolved feelings towards Viserys and has been missing the idea of family without really realizing it until now.

As for the bolded, I've not seen this rule and people do it all of the time. Can you point me to where you've seen this?

[LadyOlenna]

@Lollygag I agree that there could be more than one meaning!

As regards the rule about quoting, I read it here:

 

[Guest]

@Lollygag I really like your interpretations on the prophecy. You even picked up on the sweetness=negative which others caught back in 2013 but a lot of folks ignore for some reason.

Question on this:

On 9/24/2018 at 11:32 AM, Lollygag said:

Bride of Fire isn’t who she’ll marry. It’s what she’ll have to give up as Bride of Fire to achieve her destiny.

Do you see that as positive for her/positive for Westeros or negative for her/negative for Westeros?

Because I think the Bride of Fire phrase is ominous, personally.

Only focusing on that 3rd paragraph, I get the strong sense that it's referring to Drogo - Aegon - Jon. Not husbands necessarily, but martial opportunities that she lost or will lose, which cause her to "marry" "fire" in the end (i.e. using dragons to burn people who betrayed her, like Mirri). 

I think the dead man on the ship is Aegon. He stands on the prow of a poleboat in ADWD. His "bright eyes" suggest enthusiasm, eagerness, and hopefulness. "Smiling sadly" comes up 3 times in the books. Tyrion smiling sadly at Jon at the Wall, Jaime's mother smiling sadly in his dream, and Littlefinger smiling sadly at Sansa. It suggests pity or tragedy. His dead face means she'll kill him, likely because he's a fake. So he could be smiling at her, sadly, as a corpse, because she's made a very tragic mistake. She'll recognize him as the mummer's dragon from the prophecy. She'll take this as a sign that slaying this "lie" is what she's meant to do. 

But is it?

...if you think about it, he's her perfect prince. He was raised as a Targaryen. Whether he is legit or not, he would be willing to marry her because he was raised to accept incest as normal and wants to restore the Targaryen dynasty with her, which is why eagerness/enthusiasm imagery ("bright eyes") is used.

Jon is Aegon's foil. He would have no interest in helping her restore her family's legacy and was not raised to expect this life. Unlike Aegon, he would be uncomfortable with the Super Extra Deluxe™️ style of incest the Targaryens practice. He would be squicked out by his own accidental incest (if it happens) but also the expectation that his and Dany's children would marry each other. He would not want to live in King's Landing - he would choose to stay with his family in the North. He would fundamentally disagree with many Targaryen principles and practices. He would reject Rhaegar as his real father. The expectation that he has to go live in KL and rule with her would no doubt disturb him and if Dany puts any pressure on him to marry her, he would respond with antipathy. So he would likely refuse to marry her. Dany will feel betrayed.

If Dany kills Aegon, the narrative (from a Doylist standpoint) will not allow her to marry Jon. Dany will confront her own hypocrisy. She rejected Aegon but expected Jon to marry her. The narrative will not "reward" her for killing someone based on a prophecy or killing someone whose blood wasn't "pure" enough for her. 

Aegon will be her best opportunity for Targaryen restoration. She rejects it. Then she meets Jon, the "real deal," and expects him to fulfill this for her. Jon in turn rejects her. This would be deeply ironic and tragic.

So now we get to the bride of fire meaning - I think it's along these lines:

On 9/25/2018 at 3:14 AM, Springwatch said:

Dany is already the bride of fire: before she walks into the pyre, she looks at it and thinks, "This is a wedding too."

Dany's husband was taken from her and so she threw her own "wedding" - to fire. Her thoughts in this passage are a bit ~crazy~. Cersei has similar thoughts as she's burning the Tower of the Hand. So I agree that "fire" is not a person. It's the element itself that will be more loyal and appealing to her than any man. Embracing fire is how Dany wants to cope with problems. This is why I think "bride of fire" is ominous. Similar to Drogo/Mirri, its about a possible life that was stolen from her. She will feel that her opportunity for family and a true Targaryen husband was taken from her by Ned/Lyanna. If she has self-awareness she'll realize she screwed herself with prophecy. She will also be furious at Jon for political and personal reasons. If Jon is the heir, she will have lost the best tactic to neutralize his threat to her claim (marriage). She'll also realize that Jon's refusal to marry her, combined with Northern defiance to her rule, means she has no way to take the North other than by conquering it, through fire.

So I think she decides to throw a "wedding" of her own: burning down Winterfell, conquering the North, and punishing her lover who wronged her. What she'd really be doing is declaring war, but romantic metaphors are used for violence in the books, so in this case a "wedding" for Dany is quite terrifying. THIS is why the blue flower smelling sweet = negative. I do think the blue flower is a blue winter rose, and its symbolic of Jon choosing his Stark side of the family and not his Targaryen one, because it represents a Stark girl (Lyanna/Sansa/Arya) and Winterfell itself.

WF being attacked by a dragon also fits with Summer baring his teeth at a "great winged snake," and his observation that nothing was more dangerous than fire. If the wolves are howling at the comet in a negative way and the comet suggests "blood and fire and nothing sweet", then I think all of these clues might relate to each other.

[Megorova]

17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

My memory of the details of Beauty and the Beast is rough beyond Disney’s version, but isn’t it just about how he must undo his curse?

His time was limited, the rose was withering, and he was supposed to die together with that rose <- in Disney's version and in the original fairytale. So the conditions to lift the curse was to find someone who will fall in love with the Beast prior his 18(?) birthday (in French version he was a prince, that was cursed by a witch or a fairy, when he was 12, if I remember it correctly ).

17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I’ve been meaning to read Dune but haven’t gotten to it yet. I’ll look out for that.

The ending is BAD. And in the middle of the series the MC was changed <- I don't like things like that in books or movies.

17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Basically I’m saying that Dany being and doing exceptional things, things which don’t come along for thousands of years, is undermined by making it required for her to marry to achieve these things. If that’s so, then she’s not that exceptional. This is all over Cersei’s arc so GRRM is aware of this.

Dany didn't had to become the Breaker of Chains, etc., the only thing, that she did, out of what was predicted in the Prophecy, is that she will wake dragons from stone. Her trip to Slaver's Bay is not part of what Azor Ahai was supposed to do.

She didn't had to marry with Hizdahr, she did that only because he was offering to her a solution, how to deal with the Harpy and Yunkai. She was not smart or strong enough to deal with those troblemakers on her own, so she accepted Hizdahr's proposal, to marry him and to get help from him. It was her own decision, it was her own path, she's the one who chose to do so. All those predictions from the House of the Undying, they are not the same thing, as the prophecy about Azor Ahai and Long Night. The Undyings' predictions only told Dany about her own future path. She could have made different decisions, but she chose to do what she did. If with Drogo she had no choice, whether to marry with him, or not to marry, then with Hizdahr, it was her own decision. She could have left Meereen, and went elsewhere, but she wanted to be the Queen now, not to wait until she will finally become the Queen of 7K, and that's IF she will ever become Queen of 7K.

Dany does repeat Cersei's path, because, same as Cersei, Dany want to become Queen. Cersei marryed with Robert Baratheon, even though she loved Jaime and Rhaegar, but to become the Queen she loved more. There's a price tag on the Queen's crown, and that price is to marry with whomever will help her (Cersei, Dany, Margaery) to get to that crown. If they are not smart or strong enough to get that crown on their own conditions (like Robert did, like Aegon I did - thru conquest), then they have to pay the price. But it's not like they were forced to take that crown. 

Dany is exactly like Cersei - both has chosen to pay the price for the Queen's crown. But it's not like either of them were destined to become Queens. No? If Dany is Azor Ahai, then it wouldn't matter, whether she's a Queen or not a Queen. That's what she wants, not something that she has to be. She could have chosen different path, like, for example, when Illyrio has sent those three ships, to bring Dany and her dragons to Pentos, instead of going to Illyrio, she just took those ships, and went to Astapor. So she could have done something else with the Harpy and slavers problems, solved them differently, without choosing marriage with Hizdahr, as the easiest solution. GRRM makes Dany to repeat Cersei's path, because Dany isn't any different from Cersei. Both wanted to get the crown, more than anything, and both did it thru their men/thru bed. Maybe in later books Dany will become more independent, but so far she is stereotypical Disney princess - men solve her problems, and get for her what she wants.

[Springwatch]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

The ending is BAD. And in the middle of the series the MC was changed <- I don't like things like that in books or movies.

Dune - I started with Chapterhouse, and worked backwards (accidentally). So maybe not having my expectations set by the early books made a difference, but I loved reading the conflict between BG and Honored Matres. And I keep remembering the HM were called 'whores' by their enemies - it would be great if grrm gives them a tribute in the next books. I could really see that working.

 

[Jeeves]

The person who is exactly like Cersei are Catelyn and Sansa.  Daenerys is nothing like Cersei.  I don't think you and I are reading the same book.  Daenerys woke those dragons herself.  She earned her own khalasar.  She rescued the Unsullied from their tormentors on her own.  Those were not the work of the good 'ol boy network.  Those accomplishments are Daenerys Targaryen's and hers alone.   She is actually the most accomplished person in the novels.  

 

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

His time was limited, the rose was withering, and he was supposed to die together with that rose <- in Disney's version and in the original fairytale. So the conditions to lift the curse was to find someone who will fall in love with the Beast prior his 18(?) birthday (in French version he was a prince, that was cursed by a witch or a fairy, when he was 12, if I remember it correctly ).

The ending is BAD. And in the middle of the series the MC was changed <- I don't like things like that in books or movies.

Dany didn't had to become the Breaker of Chains, etc., the only thing, that she did, out of what was predicted in the Prophecy, is that she will wake dragons from stone. Her trip to Slaver's Bay is not part of what Azor Ahai was supposed to do.

She didn't had to marry with Hizdahr, she did that only because he was offering to her a solution, how to deal with the Harpy and Yunkai. She was not smart or strong enough to deal with those troblemakers on her own, so she accepted Hizdahr's proposal, to marry him and to get help from him. It was her own decision, it was her own path, she's the one who chose to do so. All those predictions from the House of the Undying, they are not the same thing, as the prophecy about Azor Ahai and Long Night. The Undyings' predictions only told Dany about her own future path. She could have made different decisions, but she chose to do what she did. If with Drogo she had no choice, whether to marry with him, or not to marry, then with Hizdahr, it was her own decision. She could have left Meereen, and went elsewhere, but she wanted to be the Queen now, not to wait until she will finally become the Queen of 7K, and that's IF she will ever become Queen of 7K.

Dany does repeat Cersei's path, because, same as Cersei, Dany want to become Queen. Cersei marryed with Robert Baratheon, even though she loved Jaime and Rhaegar, but to become the Queen she loved more. There's a price tag on the Queen's crown, and that price is to marry with whomever will help her (Cersei, Dany, Margaery) to get to that crown. If they are not smart or strong enough to get that crown on their own conditions (like Robert did, like Aegon I did - thru conquest), then they have to pay the price. But it's not like they were forced to take that crown. 

Dany is exactly like Cersei - both has chosen to pay the price for the Queen's crown. But it's not like either of them were destined to become Queens. No? If Dany is Azor Ahai, then it wouldn't matter, whether she's a Queen or not a Queen. That's what she wants, not something that she has to be. She could have chosen different path, like, for example, when Illyrio has sent those three ships, to bring Dany and her dragons to Pentos, instead of going to Illyrio, she just took those ships, and went to Astapor. So she could have done something else with the Harpy and slavers problems, solved them differently, without choosing marriage with Hizdahr, as the easiest solution. GRRM makes Dany to repeat Cersei's path, because Dany isn't any different from Cersei. Both wanted to get the crown, more than anything, and both did it thru their men/thru bed. Maybe in later books Dany will become more independent, but so far she is stereotypical Disney princess - men solve her problems, and get for her what she wants.

 

[Jeeves]

On 9/30/2018 at 8:41 PM, Annalee said:

The fires to light is an auto-da-fe for witches and warlocks.  It is a callback to the burning of sorcerers and witches except they are for real here.  This rules out Tyrion.  He doesn't possess any kind of unusual abilities to earn the label of warlock.  Mirri can clearly be labeled a witch.  Skinchangers and wargs can be labeled witches and wizards.  The trio who will earn a date with the flames are Mirri Maaz Dur, Moqorro, and Mellisandre.  

The mount is a gift from the husband.  Drogo gave the silver mare.  This is the gift of confidence.  Drogo provided the wings to lift Daenerys to great heights.  The wings to fly from her brother's nest and come into her own.  Victarion is not giving a kraken.  He's bringing an armada to the Dragon Queen.  This is the second mount.  A mount to ride the seas.  

The blue rose is the symbol of Bael the Bard.  It does not necessarily mean Jon Snow.  The blue rose on the Wall could easily point to Mance Rayder for stealing Jon Snow.  He took the son of a Stark and turned him into a wildling.  The blue rose is the symbol of Bael the Bard and not the Starks.   Mance stole fArya from Winterfell.  He was old enough to have stolen Lyanna from her bed.  

The husbands will come from savage cultures.  Drogo for the Dothraki.  Victarion for the Iron born.  The third people may be the wildlings and if that is the case the husband might be Jon.   There is also Mance Rayder to consider.  The three husbands will die and Daenerys will inherit his people.  

The three lies are all related to false identities.  False Azor Ahai, Targaryen, and dragon.  The first fire slew the lie of the blue eyed king because we know now who Azor Ahai is.  The lies are people standing in her way to the throne.  

Let's just say the mounts are useful tools.  Which is really also saying the three husbands are useful.  Dany had an end goal in mind when she lit Drogo's fire.  To hatch her dragon eggs.  No doubt she will have goals when she lights the second and the third fire.  The "for death" will be the goal of the second fire.  The third fire will be "to bring back someone to love."  Most probably Rhaego.   The Burnt Offerings for fire #2 and fire #3 will be Tyrion Lannister and Jon Snow.  Like MMD, they will be guilty of treason.  

Hizdahr doesn't count because he and Dany are in a loveless marriage.  The death of an unloved husband is not a big deal.  The death of the husband has to mean something for Dany to burn the damned traitors to death.  

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

11 hours ago, The First Bloodrider said:

Let's just say the mounts are useful tools.  Which is really also saying the three husbands are useful.  Dany had an end goal in mind when she lit Drogo's fire.  To hatch her dragon eggs.  No doubt she will have goals when she lights the second and the third fire.  The "for death" will be the goal of the second fire.  The third fire will be "to bring back someone to love."  Most probably Rhaego.   The Burnt Offerings for fire #2 and fire #3 will be Tyrion Lannister and Jon Snow.  Like MMD, they will be guilty of treason.  

Hizdahr doesn't count because he and Dany are in a loveless marriage.  The death of an unloved husband is not a big deal.  The death of the husband has to mean something for Dany to burn the damned traitors to death.  

 

True and it gives her the justification to execute someone.  The execution is carried out to not only punish but to hatch dragons, bring death to her enemies, and to resurrect a person she loves like her son.  The fires are not to resurrect the husbands.  They are part of the offering to make the magic work.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

True and it gives her the justification to execute someone.  The execution is carried out to not only punish but to hatch dragons, bring death to her enemies, and to resurrect a person she loves like her son.  The fires are not to resurrect the husbands.  They are part of the offering to make the magic work.

I'm all for Dany going fire crazed in the end to conquer, but if she tries to burn Jon and Tyrion to hatch more dragons she will have become her father. Is this what you're saying will happen?

[alostsister]

On 10/1/2018 at 5:42 AM, The hairy bear said:

A very old thread from the previous incarnation of this forum, posted not long after the publication of ACOK, reached the conclusion that the "groups of three" could be grouped, and referred to the three big climaxes in Dany's live would have. All three would include a fire, a marriage and a treason.

• ...three fires must you light...one (1) for life and one (2) for death and one (3) to love...
• ...three mounts must you ride...one (1) to bed and one (2) to dread and one (3) to love...
• ...three treasons will you know...once (1) for blood and once (2) for gold and once (3) for love...

 

• The (1) group referred to Dany's time with the Dothrakis. The fire for live was Drogo's pyre, that brought the dragons to live. The mount to bed represented Drogo, that was Dany's first sexual encounter. And the treason for blood was Mirri Maz Duur use of blood magic.
• The group (2) was suggested to include Dany's marriage to some Greyjoy. Bear in mind that this theory was made before the publication of Feast and Dance. It was based on the "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly" quote. Both the ship, and the "grey lips smiling" suggested Greyjoy. And Dany would need ships to attempt an invasion of Westeros. That marriage would have ended badly, with the Greyjoy being abusive to Dany (one to dread), and betraying her for money (one for gold). Dany's dragon's would end burning the Greyjoy fleet in revenge (one fire for Death).
• The "love" group (3) would be related to his marriage to Jon Snow.  She would marry him for love. The fire for love would be burning the wight invasion with her dragons. And the betrayal for love would be Tyrion's (it was assumed that Tyrion would fall in love with Dany, and when he saw that she loved Jon instead, he would betray them badly).

I still think it's valid (perhaps with some minor tweaks), and if anything, the developments in the past books seem to confirm it.

Your #2 bulletpoint is terrifying, though in the books Euron and his horn and with the show, Euron and the NK  might battle, branching into the 3rd bullet point.....Simple and concise, yet ultimately complicated.

[Damon_Tor]

On 9/24/2018 at 10:55 AM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

One thing I notice in the OP and throughout the thread is something missing in the hubby count regardless of prophecy and theorizing:  Dany has a husband #2 named Hizdahr, or The Hiz, for short.  He's not mentioned, so far, in any of the posts that are counting up husbands and possible husbands, live or dead.  Since The Hiz is her husband at the present time, and still living, he should be considered and counted in the prophecy scenarios.   

The men listed are the ones who sire children on her. Hizdahr did not, and will not.

Quote

I also cannot imagine a scenario in which Dany marries Victarion, minus mind control, LOL  I don't care how many ships, how many horns, and how many Dusky Women Vic has up his burnt sleeve, I cannot see Dany marrying him, much less ever becoming pregnant by him, much less ever willingly having sex with him.

I don't get why people are so against by this. Daenerys very clearly has "a type". She likes large, strong, violent men. This is entirely consistent throughout the series. When she meets Quentyn she instead eyeballs his large brutish companion and thinks to herself "now, if only he looked more like this guy."

Victarion isn't a good guy. Neither was Drogo. Neither is Daario. They're all aggressive, murderous brutes, and that's exactly what gets Daenerys going. And Victarion is about to show up as the answer to her prayers, with a ton of ships to get her forces over the sea, covered in  the blood of her enemies. Frankly, I can't imagine a scenario where she DOESN'T fall for him.

EDIT: Now, it's entirely possible that Victarion is where she learns better; Drogo and Daario have love to give beneath their barbaric exteriors, and treated her well enough, but at his core Victarion is filled with self-loathing and seems to think very little of women. And I'm reasonably certain that Euron maintains a psychic link with Victarion via the dusky woman and will extend that link to Daenerys when Victarion and she begin have sex. To what end, I'm not entirely sure, and I don't think Daenerys or Victarion will really understand what's happening to them (neither will most readers, for that matter) but having evil magic float around every time you have sex probably isn't good for a relationship.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 9/26/2018 at 11:56 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

The choice to use treason instead of betrayal limit the possibilities.  You can only commit treason against a legitimate figure of authority.  Cheating on your husband is betrayal but it's not treason.  Mirri Maz Duur is guilty of treason because she assassinated a khal.  The Tyrells are guilty as well for killing Joffrey. 

 

On 9/26/2018 at 12:11 PM, Starkz said:

Mirri was a slave tho.. not really treason if you’re a slave.

It is treason because she agreed to help a king and then murdered his son.  Khal = king in Dothraki.  Oh by the way, under the laws of Westeros, little Rhaego was the Prince of Dragonstone.  He was one of the heirs to the Targaryen kingdom of Westeros.  The line of succession goes from King Viserys, third of his name, followed by his sister, the Princess Daenerys.  Prince Rhaego would be the third in the line if he had lived.  

[Lollygag]

On 10/1/2018 at 6:06 PM, LadyOlenna said:

@Lollygag I agree that there could be more than one meaning!

As regards the rule about quoting, I read it here:

 

Thanks !

If you're concerned about being strict within any rules, I'd double check with a mod as this is left to personal preference as far as I can tell.

This type of quoting is often not used on the forum for various reasons like it pulls words out of context which leads to misunderstandings, it's sometimes used to create strawman arguments, it's just really hard to follow sometimes, it's used by some on the forum to engage in topic drift especially among those who enjoy debate-style discussion, and it leads to people just repeating themselves because their points keep disappearing unaddressed.

But there usually isn't a need to requote when the text is quoted and there are other times too when it's best to edit to a specific point. Basically, common sense I guess?

[Lollygag]

On 10/1/2018 at 3:00 PM, Springwatch said:

This is really good, I like it.

It's kind of the point about mounts that they take you somewhere - the destination is more important than the mount itself - but it's a point that usually doesn't get a lot of discussion (we still seem very short of information basically).

But the silver mount taking Dany into the darkness - that seems very clear, and links beautifully into the sea of stars, and also the destination 'bed', which could be a final resting place, or a place to dream of the spirit world.

I agree and I think the circumstances surrounding the mount are important too. Dany starts out as extremely timid and inhibited, but her mounting Drago was a huge turn in her development - she became more Bride of Fire-ish. Likewise she undergoes further development away from timid Dany when she mounts Drogon. For these mounts, Dany is the driver and I suspect the third (assuming Drago and Drogon were #1 and #2) will also come with a big Bride of Fire-ish development in her personality which builds on her development which came with her mounting of Drago and Drogon.

[Lollygag]

5 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

The men listed are the ones who sire children on her. Hizdahr did not, and will not.

Drago didn't sire any children on Dany either. He just got her pregnant with someone who could have never lived. I don't think it's a list of dudes who will knock Dany up. And some believe Dany miscarried in ADWD so that would count if Rhaego counts. She's not married to Daario (yet?).

These sorts of things are hard to figure, but they don't feel right when explanations require lawyer-esque fine-print. If you believe it's a list of her husbands (I don't), then it's a list of her husbands period without a list of head-scratcher exceptions on the side.

Just looks like trying to force square pegs into round holes to me.

[Lollygag]

On 10/1/2018 at 11:27 PM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

@Lollygag I really like your interpretations on the prophecy. You even picked up on the sweetness=negative which others caught back in 2013 but a lot of folks ignore for some reason.

Question on this:

Do you see that as positive for her/positive for Westeros or negative for her/negative for Westeros?

Because I think the Bride of Fire phrase is ominous, personally.

 

Apologies if I'm scatter-brained. Tired. Lots of things to chew on here.

I agree that it’s ominous, but I see pretty ominous things for most of the major characters. I think GRRM said TWOW would see characters be darker and I believe it as I see quite a bit of set up for this. The Rhoynar sections of TWOIAF have the imperialistic and enslaving Valyrians encroaching on the perfect hippie commune of the Rhoyne. Basically, the Valyrians are playing the part of the Others here and it’s water which saves them, but ruins them in the process. In this story, the roles are reversed. Imperialistic and enslaving ice/Others encroach, and it’s fire that saves. I’m guessing that Dany will be very controversial because that’s how characters seem to roll, but ultimately she may play a role akin to Garin and the dragons are her flood of fire. But I’m probably wrong. So many characters are on pivot points right now so I find them hard to predict for.

I’m not sure yet about how much Dany will bind herself to Targ ways in regards to replicating their traditions and ruling in the fashion that they have been. Thus far, she hasn’t really cared about these things but her Viserys hallucination where she clearly has unresolved guilt over Viserys and also seems to be feeling loneliness might point in her changing course and doing just those things. I don’t know.

On 10/1/2018 at 11:27 PM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Only focusing on that 3rd paragraph, I get the strong sense that it's referring to Drogo - Aegon - Jon. Not husbands necessarily, but martial opportunities that she lost or will lose, which cause her to "marry" "fire" in the end (i.e. using dragons to burn people who betrayed her, like Mirri). 

On 10/1/2018 at 11:27 PM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Dany's husband was taken from her and so she threw her own "wedding" - to fire. Her thoughts in this passage are a bit ~crazy~. Cersei has similar thoughts as she's burning the Tower of the Hand. So I agree that "fire" is not a person. It's the element itself that will be more loyal and appealing to her than any man. Embracing fire is how Dany wants to cope with problems. This is why I think "bride of fire" is ominous. Similar to Drogo/Mirri, its about a possible life that was stolen from her.

I noticed that these themes are quite prominent in ADWD and she really struggles so I think you’re spot on with this. I’m open to multiple meanings for these things (for example, I suspect that the valonqar will be Tyrion, Jaime, the “little brother” Reynes, and Tywin’s little brother Illyrio/Gerion Lannister and it will debatable as to which is the ”true” valonquar), so I'll suggest one possibility below which is along the same lines as what you suggest. I think her last two chapters in ADWD need to be read along with this as there's a lot about home and queening here, but I'm not going to get around to breaking them out anytime soon so here it is incomplete. 

So maybe these are things which Dany will value greatly and want (house with the red door), but will have to give up Azor Ahai-style in order to be married to her destiny as Bride of Fire. What I hadn't considered until your post was that she might really revolt against this idea. It would make sense as she really struggles to let go of these things but I do see Bride of Fire as more of a process again Azor Ahai-style rather than something instantly achieved especially as she starts out so timid.  Maybe they are aspects of herself which must die before she can succeed at her destiny? Dany’s version of Kill the Boy, Let the Man be Born?

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.  A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.  A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.  Mother of dragons, bride of fire.”

Here, we see Dany still seeking to be comforted from her last loss, Drago. Her hair is tousled, she’s wearing skimpy things, she wears Drago’s lion pelt which reminds me of a child's blanky tbh to feel close to him. She’s soft and seeking comfort and home, just like Stalwart Shield. At the end of this passage, we see her shed the lion’s pelt (Drago’s cloak/the blanky) and say “the blood of the dragon does not weep”. She must get beyond her need for comfort, warmth, peace, companionship, her need to heal and rest. This particular Stalwart Shield failed in his purpose and died. The soft, feminine Dany at the beginning of this passage will not serve Dany in her destiny, will not protect her. This Dany is no Bride of Fire.

This passage has a corpse pulled from a ship. His cheeks are cut ear to ear (smiling). Much is made of his open blue eyes. He is bright from the light of a torch. He was alone, without his pair, and was paying prostitutes to hold him, which sounds rather sad to me.

ADWD Daenerys I:

She could hear the dead man coming up the steps. The slow, measured sound of footsteps went before him, echoing amongst the purple pillars of her hall. Daenerys Targaryen awaited him upon the ebon bench that she had made her throne. Her eyes were soft with sleep, her silver-gold hair all tousled.

"Your Grace," said Ser Barristan Selmy, the lord commander of her Queensguard, "there is no need for you to see this."

"He died for me." Dany clutched her lion pelt to her chest. Underneath, a sheer white linen tunic covered her to midthigh. She had been dreaming of a house with a red door when Missandei woke her. There had been no time to dress.

"Khaleesi," whispered Irri, "you must not touch the dead man. It is bad luck to touch the dead."

"Unless you killed them yourself." Jhiqui was bigger-boned than Irri, with wide hips and heavy breasts. "That is known."

"It is known," Irri agreed.

Dothraki were wise where horses were concerned, but could be utter fools about much else. They are only girls, besides. Her handmaids were of an age with her—women grown to look at them, with their black hair, copper skin, and almond-shaped eyes, but girls all the same. They had been given to her when she wed Khal Drogo. It was Drogo who had given her the pelt she wore, the head and hide of a hrakkar, the white lion of the Dothraki sea. It was too big for her and had a musty smell, but it made her feel as if her sun-and-stars was still near her.

Grey Worm appeared atop the steps first, a torch in hand. His bronze cap was crested with three spikes. Behind him followed four of his Unsullied, bearing the dead man on their shoulders. Their caps had only one spike each, and their faces showed so little they might have been cast of bronze as well. They laid the corpse down at her feet. Ser Barristan pulled back the bloodstained shroud. Grey Worm lowered the torch, so she might see.

The dead man's face was smooth and hairless, though his cheeks had been slashed open ear to ear. He had been a tall man, blue-eyed and fair of face. Some child of Lys or Old Volantis, snatched off a ship by corsairs and sold into bondage in red Astapor. Though his eyes were open, it was his wounds that wept. There were more wounds than she could count.

"Your Grace," Ser Barristan said, "there was a harpy drawn on the bricks in the alley where he was found …"

"… drawn in blood." Daenerys knew the way of it by now. The Sons of the Harpy did their butchery by night, and over each kill they left their mark. "Grey Worm, why was this man alone? Had he no partner?" By her command, when the Unsullied walked the streets of Meereen by night they always walked in pairs.

"My queen," replied the captain, "your servant Stalwart Shield had no duty last night. He had gone to a … a certain place … to drink, and have companionship."

"A certain place? What do you mean?"

"A house of pleasure, Your Grace."

A brothel. Half of her freedmen were from Yunkai, where the Wise Masters had been famed for training bedslaves. The way of the seven sighs. Brothels had sprouted up like mushrooms all over Meereen. It is all they know. They need to survive. Food was more costly every day, whilst the price of flesh grew cheaper. In the poorer districts between the stepped pyramids of Meereen's slaver nobility, there were brothels catering to every conceivable erotic taste, she knew. Even so … "What could a eunuch hope to find in a brothel?"

"Even those who lack a man's parts may still have a man's heart, Your Grace," said Grey Worm. "This one has been told that your servant Stalwart Shield sometimes gave coin to the women of the brothels to lie with him and hold him."

The blood of the dragon does not weep. "Stalwart Shield," she said, dry-eyed. "That was his name?"

"If it please Your Grace."

"It is a fine name." The Good Masters of Astapor had not allowed their slave soldiers even names. Some of her Unsullied reclaimed their birth names after she had freed them; others chose new names for themselves. "Is it known how many attackers fell upon Stalwart Shield?"

"Six or more," said Ser Barristan. "From the look of his wounds, they swarmed him from all sides. He was found with an empty scabbard. It may be that he wounded some of his attackers."

Dany said a silent prayer that somewhere one of the Harpy's Sons was dying even now, clutching at his belly and writhing in pain. "Why did they cut open his cheeks like that?"

"Gracious queen," said Grey Worm, "his killers had forced the genitals of a goat down the throat of your servant Stalwart Shield. This one removed them before bringing him here."

They could not feed him his own genitals. The Astapori left him neither root nor stem. "The Sons grow bolder," Dany observed. Until now, they had limited their attacks to unarmed freedmen, cutting them down in the streets or breaking into their homes under the cover of darkness to murder them in their beds. "This is the first of my soldiers they have slain."

"The first," Ser Barristan warned, "but not the last." 

I am still at war, Dany realized, only now I am fighting shadows. She had hoped for a respite from the killing, for some time to build and heal.

Shrugging off the lion pelt, she knelt beside the corpse and closed the dead man's eyes, ignoring Jhiqui's gasp. "Stalwart Shield shall not be forgotten. Have him washed and dressed for battle and bury him with cap and shield and spears."

 

 

ADWD Daenerys VII

"So we pray. I want to plant my olive trees and see them fruit." Does it matter that Hizdahr's kisses do not please me? Peace will please me. Am I a queen or just a woman?

Dragons do not build, nor do they plant trees. Peace and respite from killing is about the opposite of fire and blood. I think Bride of Fire is a process and Dany's closer but not there yet.

[Starkz]

14 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

 

It is treason because she agreed to help a king and then murdered his son.  Khal = king in Dothraki.  Oh by the way, under the laws of Westeros, little Rhaego was the Prince of Dragonstone.  He was one of the heirs to the Targaryen kingdom of Westeros.  The line of succession goes from King Viserys, third of his name, followed by his sister, the Princess Daenerys.  Prince Rhaego would be the third in the line if he had lived.  

She didn’t “murder her son”. Her son was a stillborn among other things. Mirri told Dany there would be a price to pay and she didn’t cause Drogo to rip off his poultice and replace it with mud. Why does it matter about the laws of succession in this context? Mirri was a slave, she swore no allegiance to Drogo or Dany and that’s the reality of the situation. To many Mirri was probably a martyr.