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Sansa really is Alayne

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Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

(AGoT, Sansa I, Chapter 15)

You know how GRRM likes foreshadowing? And irony? That passage about Arya being a trueborn Stark, who does not look like Sansa, is in Sansa's first POV.

If Arya is trueborn, what if Sansa is the bastard?

Catelyn tells us that she was a virgin when she married Ned

And when Brandon was murdered and father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

(ACoK, Catelyn VI, Chapter 45)

We know that Robb was born in 283 AC at Riverrun while Ned was fighting in Robert's Rebellion. After Ned was done fighting, he returned to Winterfell with the baby Jon Snow who was identified as Ned's bastard son. Catelyn must have soon arrived at Winterfell with baby Robb. With the bastard child Jon Snow in full view, the marriage was off to a rocky start.

I'm thinking Littlefinger snuck up to Winterfell at some point during these difficult early years. Maybe he pretended to be part of the construction crew for the sept Ned had built for Catelyn's use. Baelish had a fling with his longtime love, now Lady Stark. Sansa, Catelyn's second child, born in 286 AC, would be the daughter of Petyr Baelish. Sansa doesn't look like a Stark because she isn't a Stark; she's different from the trueborn daughter because she is a bastard; she's a Baelish.

This theory could help to explain some of Petyr's motives. If he really was behind the catspaw with the dragonbone and Valyrian steel dagger, he might want Bran out of the way so Sansa would be closer to inheriting Winterfell. He might want to laugh behind Ned's back as Ned discovers the history of Baratheon hair color and the mismatch with Cersei's children. Can Ned not see the hair color and features of his own daughter? Littlefinger might want Joffrey out of the way because he was threatening Sansa even after the betrothal was ended and because Joffrey's death created an opportunity to get Sansa out of the Red Keep without anyone seeing Littlefinger in connection with her escape.

I have to admit, some of my clues for this Sansa = Alayne Baelish theory work only because I have a long-held suspicion that Littlefinger is a hidden Targaryen of some kind -- could be a Brightflame, Blackfyre or Velaryon descendant, but he is surrounded by Targaryen hints and clues. I think he has ambitions toward the Iron Throne but not for himself: he is trying to position Sansa to be the ruler of Westeros.

So at the same time this Baelish, sneaking into Winterfell and impregnating Lady Stark, resembles Bael the Bard, sneaking into Winterfell to seduce a Stark daughter, we are also seeing Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies in the Petyr / Catelyn love affair. Catelyn recalls role-playing where she was Jenny with flowers in her hair and Petyr was the Prince of Dragonflies. This is even more meaningful as a parallel if Littlefinger really is some kind of Targaryen with a claim to the throne.

A couple of aspects of Sansa's escape from the Red Keep also struck me as potentially meaningful. First, she is aided and accompanied by Ser Dontos, whose family sigil is three crowns. He is the closest surviving relative of the Darklyns, who were the most loyal members of the kingsguard over many generations of Targaryen rule. Does his return to knighthood as he helps Sansa escape mean that he becomes something of a kingsguard for her? The two of them run down the serpentine steps in the Red Keep on their way out of the castle. Many non-Targs go up or down these steps, but they are compared to the serpentine neck of Dany's dragon, on which she escapes from Daznak's Pit. GRRM may want us to compare Sansa on the steps with Dany climbing onto Drogon's back.

Second, during their "flight" from the Red Keep, Sansa and Dontos run through the long gallery, a room filled with suits of scaled armor, the scales being associated with dragon scales:

They continued down the serpentine and across a small sunken courtyard. Ser Dontos shoved open a heavy door and lit a taper. They were inside a long gallery. Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down their backs. As they hurried past, the taper's light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, she thought.
One more stair took them to an oaken door banded with iron. "Be strong now, my Jonquil, you are almost there." When Dontos lifted the bar and pulled open the door, Sansa felt a cold breeze on her face. She passed through twelve feet of wall, and then she was outside the castle, standing at the top of the cliff. Below was the river, above the sky, and one was as black as the other.
ASoS, Sansa V
The imagery of the flame bringing the knights to life as dragons is definitely a Targaryen symbol: a dragon hatching. I couldn't figure out why this would be included in Sansa's story but it falls into place if she is a child of Petyr Baelish and he is a Targaryen.

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Almost forgot - I also think the name Alayne is a variation on Alysanne, which was the name of a beloved Targaryen queen.

Although Alayne could also be a variation on Elenei, the daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind, from the Storm's End legend.

It could also be a near anagram of Lyanna, which would be relevant to the hidden-Targaryen theory if Lyanna was seduced by Rhaegar, leading to another Targaryen baby growing up incognito at Winterfell.

I suspect that Septa Mordane might have been Petyr's eyes and ears at Winterfell, keeping track of Sansa and reporting on her growth and development. She is still on my list as a possible Ashara Dayne in disguise, but that would be a topic for another thread. If Sansa is a secret Targ and a possible contender for the throne, it might explain why Septa Mordane is one of the first people who is described as having a noticeable, rustling skirt. Other references to skirts often involve a woman hiding a young king behind her skirt - people taunt Catelyn for hiding Robb and Cersei for hiding Joffrey behind skirts. I thought Septa Mordane might be hiding Jon Snow, but she doesn't interact with him at all, as far as I can recall. She is much more closely connected to Sansa and she introduces Sansa to Baelish at the Hand's Tourney.

There are a couple significant scenes where Petyr wears a plum doublet. The plum color I associate with Targaryens because of their violet eyes, but it is also associated with pregnancy because of lump / plum wordplay -- as a small child, Varamyr Sixskins was known as Lump because of the shape of his mother's belly before he was born. So Petyr's doublet might make more sense if we know he impregnated someone. Maybe the symbolism also implies that Petyr is something of a skin changer; a Targaryen disguised as something else.

Edited by Seams

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I see the Targ imagery as beginning here. Despite being innocent, Tyrion and Sansa will be blamed for Joff’s death. Joff can be considered a usurper of both Targaryen and Baratheon, but it’s Targ symbolism that we have here.  Sansa wears purple and silver with stones from Asshai and Tyrion wears black and crimson. Right in between their clothing descriptions, we get mention of the pie that Joff will soon choke on. 

If Tyrion is a Targ, or a chimera of both Aerys’ and Tywin’s child, then Sansa is married to a Targ bastard and Aerys' son. Tyrion goes on from here to turn Aegon to KL and soon to aid Dany I assume giving new strength to the Targs against the Lannisters.

Regardless, I see this as a sort of call-out to karma as the symbolic or literal Targs as you will get their revenge (sorta). Live by the sword, die by the sword. Usurp and be usurped. The pendulum begins to swing the other way.

 

ASOS Tyrion VIII

"My lord?" Pod was at his side. "Will you be changing? I laid out the doublet. On your bed. For the feast."

"Feast?" said Tyrion sourly. "What feast?"

"The wedding feast." Pod missed the sarcasm, of course. "King Joffrey and Lady Margaery. Queen Margaery, I mean."

Tyrion resolved to get very, very drunk tonight. "Very well, young Podrick, let us go make me festive."

Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears. Sansa wore a gown of silvery satin trimmed in vair, with dagged sleeves that almost touched the floor, lined in soft purple felt. Shae had arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones. Tyrion had never seen her look more lovely, yet she wore sorrow on those long satin sleeves. "Lady Sansa," he told her, "you shall be the most beautiful woman in the hall tonight."

"My lord is too kind."

"My lady," said Shae wistfully. "Couldn't I come serve at table? I so want to see the pigeons fly out of the pie."

Sansa looked at her uncertainly. "The queen has chosen all the servers."

"And the hall will be too crowded." Tyrion had to bite back his annoyance. "There will be musicians strolling all through the castle, though, and tables in the outer ward with food and drink for all." He inspected his new doublet, crimson velvet with padded shoulders and puffed sleeves slashed to show the black satin underlining. A handsome garment. All it wants is a handsome man to wear it. "Come, Pod, help me into this."

 

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6 hours ago, shameeka said:

How come Sansa was able to tame Lady then? No direwolf would be raised by a Baelish.

This is a challenging question and I can only speculate. In one of the novellas that GRRM issued along with TWOIAF, he explains that non-Targaryens can become dragon riders and that these people are assumed to be "dragonseeds," illegitimate children of Targaryens who slept around. But the assumption is sort of circular: if you are able to ride a dragon, you must be a Targaryen descendant. It doesn't allow for the possibility that the Targaryens may have been deceiving people for generations, claiming that they were the only family that could hatch dragons and become dragon riders.

There may be something similar at work with the Starks. In this case, we have only one data point: no one in living memory has even seen a direwolf south of the Wall, much less tamed and trained one. So we don't know if a direwolf would respond only to a Stark because we haven't seen others try and fail. We know that some direwolves dislike some characters, but that's about all we can use to extrapolate.

If Sansa has Targ heritage, she might also have special skinchanger skills that come to dragon riders. Maybe those skills were applicable in training the direwolf Lady, even though the wolf and dragons are not the same.

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I see the Targ imagery as beginning here. Despite being innocent, Tyrion and Sansa will be blamed for Joff’s death. Joff can be considered a usurper of both Targaryen and Baratheon, but it’s Targ symbolism that we have here.  Sansa wears purple and silver with stones from Asshai and Tyrion wears black and crimson. Right in between their clothing descriptions, we get mention of the pie that Joff will soon choke on. 

If Tyrion is a Targ, or a chimera of both Aerys’ and Tywin’s child, then Sansa is married to a Targ bastard and Aerys' son. Tyrion goes on from here to turn Aegon to KL and soon to aid Dany I assume giving new strength to the Targs against the Lannisters.

 

Regardless, I see this as a sort of call-out to karma as the symbolic or literal Targs as you will get their revenge (sorta). Live by the sword, die by the sword. Usurp and be usurped. The pendulum begins to swing the other way.

Yes! Isn't this marvelous? I see tons of Targ imagery around Tyrion, so I do believe the chimera story or that he is somehow a son of Aerys. If the Sansa part is true, the Targaryen incest tradition lives on in the Sansa / Tyrion marriage.

I love the passage you cite. Not only does it put Sansa and Tyrion in Targ color combinations, bookending the pigeon pie death of the usurper, but it makes a super interesting juxtaposition of Sansa and Shae - Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears.

This is like the masks of comedy and tragedy. More importantly, though, Tyrion uses the word "joy" and that is a signal to the readers that there is Tower of Joy imagery here. In another current thread in this forum there is a discussion of whether Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna or Ashara or both, or whether Ashara was a loyal handmaid who hid the "real" baby Aegon as a service to Rhaegar and Elia. in the passage you cite, we see Shae as a handmaid to Sansa, but wanting to be in on the scene at the wedding feast - in retrospect, it appears that she may even know more about what is going to happen there than Sansa and Tyrion know.

Why is Shae described as embodying joy? On the literal level, she is more cheerful than Sansa. But I think there are hidden depths to Shae's character that the reader has not yet seen. If she is a hidden Targ, too, that scene would be a terrific example of the dragon having three heads.

P.S. Another piece of symbolism / wordplay clicks into place if Sansa is a hidden Targaryen: Maelys the Monstrous = Amethyst sour lemons. I never could figure out why GRRM would create a name anagram that worked so perfectly with his fruit / gem theme but didn't seem to relate to current events in a clear way. Sansa's hairnet apparently contained the fake amethyst that killed Joffrey. Sansa loves lemon tarts. We were told that Maelys the Monstrous was the last of the Blackfyre line. Maybe Littlefinger was somehow also from that line, and Sansa is now the last of that line. (With the second, tiny head as her partner? Although Tyrion is always described as having a massive head.)

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I don't see Cat as ever thinking of Petyr as more than a childhood friend. Also, I never saw any indication she had a wish to cuckold Ned. It's also unlike Petyr to place his own invaluable person in any risk of physical harm, which he would have just by traveling to the wild, uncivilized North, let alone placing himself in the hands of his sworn enemies, the Starks. Petyr isn't a brave man, just a sneaky one.

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8 hours ago, Seams said:

They continued down the serpentine and across a small sunken courtyard. Ser Dontos shoved open a heavy door and lit a taper. They were inside a long gallery. Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down their backs. As they hurried past, the taper's light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, she thought.

Hmmm, an interesting topic... what struck me with the bit quoted here is that if there are any 'hollow knights' in that scene, surely Dontos is one of them? I just read it initially as Dontos finding his courage, now you make me wonder...

I think @shameeka's point about Lady is a good one, though, but as you say, the whole warging/dragonriding thing may be more closely related than people think.

I don't want to believe Catelyn had a fling with Petyr, but all I can find in her PoVs is her telling Ser Rodrick that she hadn't seen Littlefinger since Hoster packed him off from Riverrun... the nearest is her thoughts saying she had married Ned and 'always done her duty' - which would include not sleeping with Petyr, but it's slim evidence I grant.

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9 hours ago, Seams said:
They continued down the serpentine and across a small sunken courtyard. Ser Dontos shoved open a heavy door and lit a taper. They were inside a long gallery. Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down their backs. As they hurried past, the taper's light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, she thought.

I think we're meant to establish a parallel between Sansa's escape, using the same path that Ned used when he was taken to the brothel by Littlefinger back in Eddard IV, AGoT 20 and the different motivations that were driving him. Littlefinger led two people down that path and in the same place, they saw different things. So it's all about perception.

Hesitantly, Ned followed. Littlefinger led him into a tower, down a stair, across a small sunken courtyard, and along a deserted corridor where empty suits of armor stood sentinel along the walls. They were relics of the Targaryens, black steel with dragon scales cresting their helms, now dusty and forgotten. (Eddard IV, AGOT 20)

For me, this has always been part of the symbolism in ASOS about the Targaryens resurgence and becoming players in the game. The armors in Ned's POV are the way they are because the Targs are still very much in the shadows. Dany had not yet hatched her dragons, we don't know yet about Young Griff (I think he's the real deal), Jon identity is still very much hidden.

By the time Joffrey is dead though, there are rumors arriving in Westeros about dragons. If we go with the three heads of the dragons, that's one dragon that's emerging from out of the shadows. 

There's also a clear message that the Red Keep is still very much a Targaryen place, just as Dragonstone is when we have Davos's thoughts on it.

I personally don't think that Littlefinger is more than the backstory we are given for him. As far as last names go, his ancestor could have chosen that name for himself. I think there's a motivation for choosing a name like that, especially coming from someone who is from Braavos, a place that Littlefinger still has ties to.

And I always thought that turning Sansa into a bastard was meant to be a lesson in humility for her, which I think I'm wrong about after reading her sample chapter.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Not a chance.

Catelyn was past delicacy. "He was my father's ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were … more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." She lifted her face to the spray, as if the brisk wind could blow the memories away. "He wrote to me at Riverrun after Brandon was killed, but I burned the letter unread. By then I knew that Ned would marry me in his brother's place." (AGOT: Catelyn IV)

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

This is a challenging question and I can only speculate. In one of the novellas that GRRM issued along with TWOIAF, he explains that non-Targaryens can become dragon riders and that these people are assumed to be "dragonseeds," illegitimate children of Targaryens who slept around. But the assumption is sort of circular: if you are able to ride a dragon, you must be a Targaryen descendant. It doesn't allow for the possibility that the Targaryens may have been deceiving people for generations, claiming that they were the only family that could hatch dragons and become dragon riders.

There may be something similar at work with the Starks. In this case, we have only one data point: no one in living memory has even seen a direwolf south of the Wall, much less tamed and trained one. So we don't know if a direwolf would respond only to a Stark because we haven't seen others try and fail. We know that some direwolves dislike some characters, but that's about all we can use to extrapolate.

If Sansa has Targ heritage, she might also have special skinchanger skills that come to dragon riders. Maybe those skills were applicable in training the direwolf Lady, even though the wolf and dragons are not the same.

Yes! Isn't this marvelous? I see tons of Targ imagery around Tyrion, so I do believe the chimera story or that he is somehow a son of Aerys. If the Sansa part is true, the Targaryen incest tradition lives on in the Sansa / Tyrion marriage.

I love the passage you cite. Not only does it put Sansa and Tyrion in Targ color combinations, bookending the pigeon pie death of the usurper, but it makes a super interesting juxtaposition of Sansa and Shae - Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears.

This is like the masks of comedy and tragedy. More importantly, though, Tyrion uses the word "joy" and that is a signal to the readers that there is Tower of Joy imagery here. In another current thread in this forum there is a discussion of whether Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna or Ashara or both, or whether Ashara was a loyal handmaid who hid the "real" baby Aegon as a service to Rhaegar and Elia. in the passage you cite, we see Shae as a handmaid to Sansa, but wanting to be in on the scene at the wedding feast - in retrospect, it appears that she may even know more about what is going to happen there than Sansa and Tyrion know.

Why is Shae described as embodying joy? On the literal level, she is more cheerful than Sansa. But I think there are hidden depths to Shae's character that the reader has not yet seen. If she is a hidden Targ, too, that scene would be a terrific example of the dragon having three heads.

P.S. Another piece of symbolism / wordplay clicks into place if Sansa is a hidden Targaryen: Maelys the Monstrous = Amethyst sour lemons. I never could figure out why GRRM would create a name anagram that worked so perfectly with his fruit / gem theme but didn't seem to relate to current events in a clear way. Sansa's hairnet apparently contained the fake amethyst that killed Joffrey. Sansa loves lemon tarts. We were told that Maelys the Monstrous was the last of the Blackfyre line. Maybe Littlefinger was somehow also from that line, and Sansa is now the last of that line. (With the second, tiny head as her partner? Although Tyrion is always described as having a massive head.) 

Hmmm. I’m in way over my head here speculating on Targ history but I’ll jump in.  Joy and grief, laughter and tears are both part of the Lannister two-faced thing rather like the playhouse masks where one laughs and one cries.  Tytos’ joys turn to sorrow. Tywin scowls to Joanna’s smiles. Jaime smiles while Cersei scowls. And Tyrion has two faces in himself. Maelys also has two faces, quite literally and I notice quite a number of parallels between Maelys and Tyrion. Maelys also has a number of Lannister qualities in the ambition which rises to the level of kinslaying especially for ambition. They're tied to the Golden Company so I wonder where exactly that name came from? I notice that Maelys link to the Targs is unspecified. Was he part Lannister?

A big hint as to this might be that Maelys is often discussed through Lannisters. Jaime is fascinated by him, the Tyrion/Maelys parallels, and then we have Tyrion and Illyrio bringing him up and you know who I think Illyrio is :P. LF also has this two-faced quality.

AFFC Sansa I

He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too . . . and sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle . . . but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

I’ve noticed the Targ imagery around LF as you mentioned but I’ve been confused by the Lannister, Braavosi and CotF/grey-green imagery too. At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more that I’ve not noticed at this point. But if Maelys/Damon are part of the two-faced Lannisters and LF is related through this line, then that starts to tie together. Even the faces start to bring in the CotF thing about LF though I can’t say how right now.

Ugh. my brain hurts now.

 

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11 hours ago, Seams said:

If Arya is trueborn, what if Sansa is the bastard?

It would be make a good story, but I'd have trouble separating Sansa from the rest of her family. I see the contrast between 'good girl' Sansa and the younger Starks: Arya, Bran and Rickon have a mix of honour and wildness that makes them very alike. But what about Robb? He seems dutiful like Sansa; he also controls the wildness of his wolf.

I don't think it matters that Alayne is fake - it's one of those overriding narratives, in the same way that it doesn't matter that Tyrion and Sansa didn't really poison Joffrey. The narrative says they did, and that what counts. Same way, Alayne exists, and she's Petyr's daughter.

3 hours ago, Seams said:

P.S. Another piece of symbolism / wordplay clicks into place if Sansa is a hidden Targaryen: Maelys the Monstrous = Amethyst sour lemons. I never could figure out why GRRM would create a name anagram that worked so perfectly with his fruit / gem theme but didn't seem to relate to current events in a clear way. Sansa's hairnet apparently contained the fake amethyst that killed Joffrey. Sansa loves lemon tarts. We were told that Maelys the Monstrous was the last of the Blackfyre line. Maybe Littlefinger was somehow also from that line, and Sansa is now the last of that line. (With the second, tiny head as her partner? Although Tyrion is always described as having a massive head.) 

I didn't know this!... But I've been reading the chapter in Yezzan's grotesquerie, trying to fit major characters to the faces, looking for a bit of foreshadowing. Sweets would be great for Dany; the goat-legged boy might be Bran. I wondered if the two-headed girl could be the Stark sisters: Arya would have the sharpened teeth, of course, which leaves the tiny head like an orange for Sansa. :wacko:  Well, at least it's citrus.

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3 hours ago, zandru said:

I don't see Cat as ever thinking of Petyr as more than a childhood friend. Also, I never saw any indication she had a wish to cuckold Ned. It's also unlike Petyr to place his own invaluable person in any risk of physical harm, which he would have just by traveling to the wild, uncivilized North, let alone placing himself in the hands of his sworn enemies, the Starks. Petyr isn't a brave man, just a sneaky one.

This. I would doubt, once Catelyn was married to Ned, would open her legs to a creepy nutcase like Littlefinger and would Catelyn allow Littlefinger to rape her? And I doubt Ned would be as oblivious as Robert as to the true nature of his offspring. 

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13 hours ago, Seams said:

If Arya is trueborn, what if Sansa is the bastard?

8 years between book releases will make people come up with all sorts of crazy non-sensical  plot ideas that make no sense and will never be written

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3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

8 years between book releases will make people come up with all sorts of crazy non-sensical  plot ideas that make no sense and will never be written

I say that GRRM’s way of throwing off the audience by subverting their expectations (i.e. Ned’s execution, the Red Wedding) and the large gaps between books has allowed fan speculation to ferment.

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19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I say that GRRM’s way of throwing off the audience by subverting their expectations (i.e. Ned’s execution, the Red Wedding) and the large gaps between books has allowed fan speculation to ferment.

Fermented, just like Jenkem 

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13 hours ago, shameeka said:

How come Sansa was able to tame Lady then? No direwolf would be raised by a Baelish.

Lady died, so we don't know if Sansa would ever be able to form bound with her direwolf, like Bran or Jon did. Maybe Lady was just her pet.

 

14 hours ago, Seams said:

He might want to laugh behind Ned's back as Ned discovers the history of Baratheon hair color and the mismatch with Cersei's children. Can Ned not see the hair color and features of his own daughter?

Bran, Rickon and Robb had the same hair color. Btw it's strange that four children took after Catelyn. 4/5 - that's against the odds.

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14 hours ago, Seams said:

You know how GRRM likes foreshadowing? And irony? That passage about Arya being a trueborn Stark, who does not look like Sansa, is in Sansa's first POV.

If Arya is trueborn, what if Sansa is the bastard?

I would actually love it if this were the case.

14 hours ago, Seams said:

The imagery of the flame bringing the knights to life as dragons is definitely a Targaryen symbol: a dragon hatching. I couldn't figure out why this would be included in Sansa's story but it falls into place if she is a child of Petyr Baelish and he is a Targaryen.

I'm liking the Baelish imagery of a Targ. And the spelling of his name feels like a potential marker. And he's clearly interested in conquering like a Targ.

So, I would rather like this to be true--a few issues: 

As mentioned above, Cat seems romantically uninterested in Baelish. Sneaking up to Winterfell only works if Cat goes along with it. Seems unlikely.

And as mentioned above--the direwolf. Not only does Sansa affect Lady, but Lady affects Sansa: Mordane notes that Sansa is more willful now that she has Lady. And one of the things that "more willful Sansa" does in that conversation? Lie/cover for Arya--the sister that annoys her. I've wondered if it's not a sign of Sansa and Arya potentially getting closer through their wolves.

It's undone when Sansa lies about the fight with Joff- and Lady is killed.

6 hours ago, Seams said:

There may be something similar at work with the Starks. In this case, we have only one data point: no one in living memory has even seen a direwolf south of the Wall, much less tamed and trained one. So we don't know if a direwolf would respond only to a Stark because we haven't seen others try and fail. We know that some direwolves dislike some characters, but that's about all we can use to extrapolate.

If Sansa has Targ heritage, she might also have special skinchanger skills that come to dragon riders. Maybe those skills were applicable in training the direwolf Lady, even though the wolf and dragons are not the same.

We may have more than this--Varamyr and Haggon. Both really powerful skin changers, but neither skin changes a direwolf. The books aren't done and a lot is still possible, but so far, only Starks skinchange those direwolves in these books. 

And the wolves seem like a specific gift for the Stark kids--even the bastard Stark. 

One way or another, really looks like Sansa has to be a least part Stark.

But your symbolism absolutely holds in reading her character--I need to dig into it more thoroughly and come back in a bit--lots of potential implications (I think).

And I'd love it if I'm wrong on my protests that Sansa has to be part Stark.

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7 hours ago, Seams said:

This is a challenging question and I can only speculate.

For arguments sake Val seems somewhat able to control Ghost, although she didn't raise him. This could be because Jon is fond of Val, although Robb was fond of his Westerling wife but his wolf didn't like her. 

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

... open her legs to a creepy nutcase like Littlefinger ...

Exactly. Also, since we're inside Catelyn's head when she meets Littlefinger in King's Landing, their hypothetical tryst would have undoubtedly come to her mind and we'd know. But that doesn't happen. Sansa as Baelish's get (or any other man but Ned's) just didn't happen.

Her bond with Lady was so weak because of her age (Sansa came right after Robb), her extreme self-centeredness, and the diminished time she spent with the pup. Not because she was a Baelish byblow. Or because she was a secret Targaryen. Everybody else in the book is a Secret Targaryen - except for Sansa. Everybody knows that.

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