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Sansa really is Alayne

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14 minutes ago, zandru said:

Exactly. Also, since we're inside Catelyn's head when she meets Littlefinger in King's Landing, their hypothetical tryst would have undoubtedly come to her mind and we'd know. But that doesn't happen. Sansa as Baelish's get (or any other man but Ned's) just didn't happen.

Her bond with Lady was so weak because of her age (Sansa came right after Robb), her extreme self-centeredness, and the diminished time she spent with the pup. Not because she was a Baelish byblow. Or because she was a secret Targaryen. Everybody else in the book is a Secret Targaryen - except for Sansa. Everybody knows that.

I've seen no reason to think that Sansa's bond with Lady was worse than any of her siblings' at that point in time. There hadn't been enough time to develop a really strong bond before Lady's death.  I expect that, had Lady survived, they would have had a solid bond, like the others.

the likelihood that she isn't Ned's daughter is somewhere between zero and a negative number.  None whatever.  And I see Littlefinger's interest in her as her being his lover and eventually his wife.  He certainly considers her as his protege.

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10 hours ago, zandru said:

I don't see Cat as ever thinking of Petyr as more than a childhood friend. Also, I never saw any indication she had a wish to cuckold Ned. It's also unlike Petyr to place his own invaluable person in any risk of physical harm, which he would have just by traveling to the wild, uncivilized North, let alone placing himself in the hands of his sworn enemies, the Starks. Petyr isn't a brave man, just a sneaky one.

You said a lot of true things there, friend.  I mostly agree.  One minor thing, Petyr was brave enough to challenge Brandon.  He's braver than Samwell and Joffrey.

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The perfect opportunity for Catelyn to get laid happened while Ned was off to war.   Jon and Robb are the illegitimate children of Winterfell.  Jon is at least half Stark.  That would make Robb half Tully and something else.  

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52 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

You said a lot of true things there, friend.  I mostly agree.  One minor thing, Petyr was brave enough to challenge Brandon.  He's braver than Samwell and Joffrey.

So why didn’t Petyr take the Oberyn Martell approach to a duel, dodge everything, tire him out and then poke him full of holes?

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2 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Petyr was brave enough to challenge Brandon. 

My first impulse is to say no, Baelish wasn't brave, he was stupid, simultaneously overestimating his own abilities while probably dreaming that he would at least die in Catelyn's loving arms and she would weep over his bleeding body. How romantic! Catelyn would never for get him, and would always resent her hubby Brandon! Instead, Cat stopped the fight short of the "death" part, leaving Petyr both badly injured and humiliated, and he was promptly sent back to his humble home.

However, I find that I don't even understand what "brave" is supposed to mean. Sorry!

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So why didn’t Petyr take the Oberyn Martell approach to a duel,

Petyr was a mediocre fighter, plus just a kid, relatively speaking. At least, that's my read.

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I also feel like Sansa isn't Ned's daughter, but likely Littlefinger's. When Sansa pointed out Joffrey was nothing like his father, it made me think of how Sansa has no real Stark traits to her. I feel like her wolf was killed off so early to foreshadow she wasn't a real Stark, she is the only one who hasn't demonstrated a warging ability. While Robb, Bran, and Rickon resemble Catelyn, they still have Stark traits like; Robb being honor bound and sharing Ned's ideals on ruling (even though this is nurture over nature it seems to foreshadow), Bran's fearlessness and extreme warging abilities, and Rickon's "Wolf's Blood". I'm not sold on this idea, but it is in the back of my mind.

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12 hours ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Lady died, so we don't know if Sansa would ever be able to form bound with her direwolf, like Bran or Jon did. Maybe Lady was just her pet.

Rickon & Shaggy are both fierce; Arya & Nymeria are both independent; Bran & Summer are both intelligent; Jon & Ghost are both reserved; Sansa & Lady are both gentle. It's all in a pattern.

Rickon is the child who takes most from his wolf. Lady is the wolf who takes most from her child.

ETA

One thing Sansa does have which maybe her siblings do not, is the quality of 'shiny-ness'. 'Sansa would shine in the south.' and 'Sansa looked radiant beside the crown prince.', even "flowering hasn't made you any brighter"  (paraphrasing). And a metallic sheen to her hair (which surely her red-headed brothers also share). Anyway, Targs are super-shiny.

Edited by Springwatch

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On 9/22/2018 at 10:34 PM, Seams said:

You know how GRRM likes foreshadowing? And irony? That passage about Arya being a trueborn Stark, who does not look like Sansa, is in Sansa's first POV.

If Arya is trueborn, what if Sansa is the bastard?

Catelyn tells us that she was a virgin when she married Ned

 

We know that Robb was born in 283 AC at Riverrun while Ned was fighting in Robert's Rebellion. After Ned was done fighting, he returned to Winterfell with the baby Jon Snow who was identified as Ned's bastard son. Catelyn must have soon arrived at Winterfell with baby Robb. With the bastard child Jon Snow in full view, the marriage was off to a rocky start.

I'm thinking Littlefinger snuck up to Winterfell at some point during these difficult early years. Maybe he pretended to be part of the construction crew for the sept Ned had built for Catelyn's use. Baelish had a fling with his longtime love, now Lady Stark. Sansa, Catelyn's second child, born in 286 AC, would be the daughter of Petyr Baelish. Sansa doesn't look like a Stark because she isn't a Stark; she's different from the trueborn daughter because she is a bastard; she's a Baelish.

This theory could help to explain some of Petyr's motives. If he really was behind the catspaw with the dragonbone and Valyrian steel dagger, he might want Bran out of the way so Sansa would be closer to inheriting Winterfell. He might want to laugh behind Ned's back as Ned discovers the history of Baratheon hair color and the mismatch with Cersei's children. Can Ned not see the hair color and features of his own daughter? Littlefinger might want Joffrey out of the way because he was threatening Sansa even after the betrothal was ended and because Joffrey's death created an opportunity to get Sansa out of the Red Keep without anyone seeing Littlefinger in connection with her escape.

I have to admit, some of my clues for this Sansa = Alayne Baelish theory work only because I have a long-held suspicion that Littlefinger is a hidden Targaryen of some kind -- could be a Brightflame, Blackfyre or Velaryon descendant, but he is surrounded by Targaryen hints and clues. I think he has ambitions toward the Iron Throne but not for himself: he is trying to position Sansa to be the ruler of Westeros.

So at the same time this Baelish, sneaking into Winterfell and impregnating Lady Stark, resembles Bael the Bard, sneaking into Winterfell to seduce a Stark daughter, we are also seeing Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies in the Petyr / Catelyn love affair. Catelyn recalls role-playing where she was Jenny with flowers in her hair and Petyr was the Prince of Dragonflies. This is even more meaningful as a parallel if Littlefinger really is some kind of Targaryen with a claim to the throne.

A couple of aspects of Sansa's escape from the Red Keep also struck me as potentially meaningful. First, she is aided and accompanied by Ser Dontos, whose family sigil is three crowns. He is the closest surviving relative of the Darklyns, who were the most loyal members of the kingsguard over many generations of Targaryen rule. Does his return to knighthood as he helps Sansa escape mean that he becomes something of a kingsguard for her? The two of them run down the serpentine steps in the Red Keep on their way out of the castle. Many non-Targs go up or down these steps, but they are compared to the serpentine neck of Dany's dragon, on which she escapes from Daznak's Pit. GRRM may want us to compare Sansa on the steps with Dany climbing onto Drogon's back.

Second, during their "flight" from the Red Keep, Sansa and Dontos run through the long gallery, a room filled with suits of scaled armor, the scales being associated with dragon scales:

 

The imagery of the flame bringing the knights to life as dragons is definitely a Targaryen symbol: a dragon hatching. I couldn't figure out why this would be included in Sansa's story but it falls into place if she is a child of Petyr Baelish and he is a Targaryen.

A fundamental aspect of Petyr Baelish' character is his rise from a very minor lord to becoming the king's Master of Coin, Lord Paramount of the Trident, Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Protector of the Eyrie and the Vale of Arryn, all accomplished through masterful economic and political manipulation.  He is the quintessential self-made man.  I think it would be a shame for him to turn out to be (yet another) secret Targaryen. 

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44 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

A fundamental aspect of Petyr Baelish' character is his rise from a very minor lord to becoming the king's Master of Coin, Lord Paramount of the Trident, Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Protector of the Eyrie and the Vale of Arryn, all accomplished through masterful economic and political manipulation.  He is the quintessential self-made man.  I think it would be a shame for him to turn out to be (yet another) secret Targaryen. 

LF still achieves what he achieves on his own. He’s still self-made even if his origin is not what we think (unless we find out he has some patron or allies tied to his hidden background).

I get what you’re saying and I agree that this story really needs a true self-made man in all of this feudalism, but GRRM doesn’t seem interested in this. We know that merchants and the non-noble rich exist in this series, but they’re in the periphery. Even Davos rises not so much because of ability but because of Stannis.

But bastards and bastards wanting or are projected to want what their true-born counterparts have is a HUGE thing in this series. So I’m inclined to think that while a self-made and relatively low-born LF may be a better story for some including myself, I kind of doubt that this is what we’re getting based on what’s been written thus far.

 

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7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

LF still achieves what he achieves on his own. He’s still self-made even if his origin is not what we think (unless we find out he has some patron or allies tied to his hidden background).

I halfway agree with this but I believe, Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, and Lysa all had a hand in Littlefingers success.

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31 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

I halfway agree with this but I believe, Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, and Lysa all had a hand in Littlefingers success.

I agree. With Hoster, that was completely from his father. With Lysa and Jon though, I think LF deserves some credit for using those connections that he was lucky enough to come across to his advantage. Definitely debatable as to how far he'd get without these connections.

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I agree. With Hoster, that was completely from his father. With Lysa and Jon though, I think LF deserves some credit for using those connections that he was lucky enough to come across to his advantage. Definitely debatable as to how far he'd get without these connections.

Ya that's why I said I halfway agree, he manipulated Lysa, and in turn she manipulated Jon Arryn, so it was Littlefingers cunning and charm which allowed him to accomplish that. But if Hoster never agreed to foster him, he would've not developed a relationship with these people of political stature, that's not to say he couldn't of found another way of weaseling his way into the goodness of some other political entities. Littlefinger is one of my favorite characters and i do think he possess more cunning than anyone else.

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Guys, what the hell are we arguing here? Cat SAID on her POV she haven't seen Petyr for a long long time. After he was banned from riverrun by her dad. This is absolute nonsense. If Cat wasn't a POV character and we had any hint that Ned didn't have certainty of her legitimacy or anyone else for that matter, but no. We need to stop looking in every single detail on the book, not EVERY single aspect of GRRM is supposed to not get literally. We're reading too much between invisible lines and coming up with ridiculous conclusions, like this one.

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10 hours ago, kleevedge said:

Ya that's why I said I halfway agree, he manipulated Lysa, and in turn she manipulated Jon Arryn, so it was Littlefingers cunning and charm which allowed him to accomplish that. But if Hoster never agreed to foster him, he would've not developed a relationship with these people of political stature, that's not to say he couldn't of found another way of weaseling his way into the goodness of some other political entities. Littlefinger is one of my favorite characters and i do think he possess more cunning than anyone else.

Hoster was stupid to arrange a marriage for Lysa in the Vale, which put her in close proximity to Littlefinger.

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21 hours ago, kleevedge said:

I also feel like Sansa isn't Ned's daughter, but likely Littlefinger's. When Sansa pointed out Joffrey was nothing like his father, it made me think of how Sansa has no real Stark traits to her. I feel like her wolf was killed off so early to foreshadow she wasn't a real Stark, she is the only one who hasn't demonstrated a warging ability. While Robb, Bran, and Rickon resemble Catelyn, they still have Stark traits like; Robb being honor bound and sharing Ned's ideals on ruling (even though this is nurture over nature it seems to foreshadow), Bran's fearlessness and extreme warging abilities, and Rickon's "Wolf's Blood". I'm not sold on this idea, but it is in the back of my mind.

Martin said all Stark kids are skinchangers/wargs. 

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1 hour ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Guys, what the hell are we arguing here? Cat SAID on her POV she haven't seen Petyr for a long long time. After he was banned from riverrun by her dad. This is absolute nonsense. If Cat wasn't a POV character and we had any hint that Ned didn't have certainty of her legitimacy or anyone else for that matter, but no. We need to stop looking in every single detail on the book, not EVERY single aspect of GRRM is supposed to not get literally. We're reading too much between invisible lines and coming up with ridiculous conclusions, like this one.

I enjoy threads like these and most of the time, they add to my understanding and appreciation of the work that goes into the books whether the theory holds or not.

Mance =/= Rhaegar, but the people who hold to this theory are picking up on the fact that Mance and Rhaegar are very much parallels, though we have yet to see where this might be going.

Sansa looks like Cat, but her personality is much more like Ned’s (a certain blindness and fondness for the harsher realities of life to be softened) and Arya looks like Cat but her personality takes much from Cat. So I do think Sansa is Ned’s. But LF may have a Targ background somehow which feeds into his sense of entitlement. We'll see.

Regardless, the Targ associations are real and are there for a reason as they’re there for LF. I and others enjoy exploring those symbols even if people come to different conclusions as to their purpose.

 

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On 9/24/2018 at 12:55 AM, kleevedge said:

I also feel like Sansa isn't Ned's daughter, but likely Littlefinger's. When Sansa pointed out Joffrey was nothing like his father, it made me think of how Sansa has no real Stark traits to her. I feel like her wolf was killed off so early to foreshadow she wasn't a real Stark, she is the only one who hasn't demonstrated a warging ability. While Robb, Bran, and Rickon resemble Catelyn, they still have Stark traits like; Robb being honor bound and sharing Ned's ideals on ruling (even though this is nurture over nature it seems to foreshadow), Bran's fearlessness and extreme warging abilities, and Rickon's "Wolf's Blood". I'm not sold on this idea, but it is in the back of my mind.

What is a "stark trait?"  Sansa certainly has elements of being "honor bound", fearlessness, etc.  I think Robb basing his ideals on ruling on Ned is a perfect example of nurture as you said- having "honor" is not something I think can be described as a inherited Stark trait.  Same goes for fearlessness, warging, and "wolf's blood" which just seems to equate to passion.  The Starks don't have a monopoly on these traits and not every Stark inherits them. 

 I think Sansa would be a warg if she still had Lady- nevertheless I'd still think we may see Sansa warg birds in the future, perhaps subconsciously based on all the "little bird" and falcon language that has appeared in her chapters.  It's important to note that all the Stark children's warg powers awaken through their connections to their wolves, which Sansa lost very prematurely.  Secondly I'd note that perhaps Sansa was subconsciously warging Lady from the start in a similar way to Rickon/Shaggy Dog and Arya/Nymeria- Lady is described as taking on traits that are most assuredly "Sansa-like" just like those other two.    

Edited by Tagganaro

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On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 4:12 AM, Springwatch said:

Rickon is the child who takes most from his wolf. Lady is the wolf who takes most from her child.

I don't know about that. Perhaps when Lady was still alive, but watch what happens to Sansa after she dies: the shy, polite young girl becomes more wilfull, defiant ...

We know from Varamyr Sixskins and Orell that when the warg dies, he goes into his animal. We can surmise that both Robb and Jon passed into their wolves when they died, since their names were the last words they said, and even coma-Bran became restored when his wolf was near. So what if the reverse is true? That wolves pass into their wargs upon their deaths? Might there be a little bit of Lady in Sansa to this day, and might this account for her sometimes faulty memory? 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

So what if the reverse is true? That wolves pass into their wargs upon their deaths? Might there be a little bit of Lady in Sansa to this day, and might this account for her sometimes faulty memory?  

I like this.

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