Robert Arryn is LF's bastard, obviously. Some secrets you don't share even to close family.

[zandru]

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

mocking birds themselves are parasitised in cuckoo-fashion by the cow bird. By forum logic, that would mean Petyr himself has been taken advantage of - maybe Lysa hinted that SR was his?

Forum logic, indeed! Take an incorrect initial assertion and spin it out via dubious logic and voila! "Garbage in, garbage out", as they used to say.

That aside, when has Petyr displayed any sign of affection toward Robert Arryn? For that matter, when has Petyr Baelish ever been taken advantage of? Not yet, that we've seen!

People just refuse to accept the obvious fact that Robert Arryn is clearly Hoster Tully's son/grandson.

[Springwatch]

On 9/27/2018 at 8:49 PM, zandru said:

Forum logic, indeed! Take an incorrect initial assertion and spin it out via dubious logic and voila! "Garbage in, garbage out", as they used to say.

Good grief. When I said 'forum logic', it wasn't an invitation to start hurling rotten tomatoes.

What I think is that at least some of the time, discussion in this forum should try to follow the logic of the books, in other words, the logic of the author - who likes his literary games and has written a lot of weird and wacky things, it must be said.

Even so, it's not a stretch to suppose that grrm gave serious thought to Baelish's sigil, not a stretch that he looked up basic facts on mocking birds, not a stretch to think that some readers might do the same.

None of this is essential to the appreciation of the books. The key word was always 'fun', as I said from the start.

On 9/27/2018 at 8:49 PM, zandru said:

That aside, when has Petyr displayed any sign of affection toward Robert Arryn?

Well that's a problem for everyone who thinks that SR is LF's son (and there seem to be plenty of people who do).

From all appearances, LF has concluded SR is going to die, and is cheerfully thinking about the succession. Appearances can deceive, true. But by his actions, LF would be on the bottom rung of parental achievement, together with such beauties as Roose Bolton and Jaime Lannister.

On 9/27/2018 at 8:49 PM, zandru said:

For that matter, when has Petyr Baelish ever been taken advantage of? Not yet, that we've seen!

But we have hopes...

On 9/27/2018 at 8:49 PM, zandru said:

People just refuse to accept the obvious fact that Robert Arryn is clearly Hoster Tully's son/grandson.

[Walda]

On 9/28/2018 at 5:49 AM, zandru said:

when has Petyr displayed any sign of affection toward Robert Arryn?

Well, more generally. when has Petyr affected any sign of interest in anything he has turned out to actually care a lot about? For that matter, would you care to quote some, so we can all know what Petyr really does care a lot about?

Petyr's sang froid is evident in his every appearance. The only time he appears to lose his easy-going, detached temper is when Ser Lyn Corbray bared Lady Forlorn in his negotiations with the Lords Declarant, which Petyr very shortly after assures Sansa was a set up. Sansa is practically the only point of view character that has never been easy in Petyr's company, has distrusted him instinctively from the start. She picks up things that Catelyn and Eddard (and sometimes even Tyrion) gloss over or take for granted. By Feast Sansa has no shortage of proofs to back her instincts on him, and is trying to pretend that they are both on the same side.  But even through the eyes of those who are blind to Baelish's machinations, through the points of view like Eddard, Catelyn, and Cersei, we can see that every emotion he displays is affected, as is his apparent lack of interest when the subject turns to matters most central to his underhand concerns.

 For example

Quote

“Let some sellsword drunk on visions of lordship try to kill her. Likely he’ll make a botch of it, and afterward the Dothraki will be on their guard. If we’d sent a Faceless Man after her, she’d be as good as buried.”
Ned frowned. “You sit in council and talk of ugly women and steel kisses, and now you expect me to believe that you tried to protect the girl? How big a fool do you take me for?”
“Well, quite an enormous one, actually,” said Littlefinger, laughing.
“Do you always find murder so amusing, Lord Baelish?”

(AGoT, Ch.33 Eddard VIII) 'Yes, Ned, I do'. He didn't say.

Quote

“Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king’s baseborn children?”
The short man gave a sodden shrug. “He was the King’s Hand. Doubtless Robert asked him to see that they were provided for.”
Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. “It had to be more than that, or why kill him?”
Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed.

(AGoT, Ch.35 Eddard IX)

Quote

Littlefinger gave a shrug. “You’ll need someone to share your burdens. I assure you, my price would be modest.”
“Your price.” Ned’s voice was ice. “Lord Baelish, what you suggest is treason.”
“Only if we lose.”

(AGoT, Ch.47 Eddard XIII) Of course, Eddard would lose either way.

Quote

“You will miss the king’s wedding,” said Mace Tyrell.
Petyr Baelish gave a shrug. “Tides and brides wait on no man, my lord.

(ASoS, Ch.19 Tyrion III)

Quote

Petyr Baelish put a hand on the rail. “But first you’ll want your payment. Ten thousand dragons, was it?”
“Ten thousand.” Dontos rubbed his mouth with the back of his hand. “As you promised, my lord.”
“Ser Lothor, the reward.”

(ASoS, Ch.61 Sansa V) Just a matter of which tide and whose bride, is all.

Quote

Cersei paused atop the marble steps as the Warrior’s Sons formed up around her.
It came to her suddenly that she had stood in this very spot before, on the day Lord Eddard Stark had lost his head. That was not supposed to happen. Joff was supposed to spare his life and send him to the Wall. Stark’s eldest son would have followed him as Lord of Winterfell, but Sansa would have stayed at court, a hostage. Varys and Littlefinger had worked out the terms, and Ned Stark had swallowed his precious honor and confessed his treason to save his daughter’s empty little head. I would have made Sansa a good marriage. A Lannister marriage. Not Joff, of course, but Lancel might have suited, or one of his younger brothers. Petyr Baelish had offered to wed the girl himself, she recalled, but of course that was impossible; he was much too lowborn. If Joff had only done as he was told,

(ADwD, Ch.65 Cersei II) Or rather, if only Joff had done as she told. As it is, she lost a son, he gained a daughter.

Quote

Lord Petyr was seated on his window seat, languid and elegant in a plush plum-colored doublet and a yellow satin cape, one gloved hand resting on his knee. “The king is fighting hares with a crossbow,” he said. “The hares are winning. Come see.”

(ACoK, Ch.17 Tyrion IV)

Lord Petyr killed Jon Arryn, and Ned Stark, and King Joffrey.  He sent the wineseller to frame Ser Jorah (and Varys) for attempting to kill Daenarys. He is currently protecting Sansa and Robert Arryn. He protects Sansa as he protected her mother, by giving her a false identity that amuses him. It amused him to give Catelyn the identity of an anonymous whore in one of his brothels. It amuses him to give Sansa the identity of his bastard child, by a fallen septa. It amuses him to give SweetRobin the identity of Lord of the Eyrie, Defender of the Vale, True Warden of the East.

If Lord Petyr starts showing a solicitous interest in Robyn Arryn (let alone a paternal one) it would be a sign he was ready to bump the child off. As it is, Petyr Baelish would lose the Vale and put both his wards in fatal danger if anyone suspects SweetRobin is his bastard child, or Sansa isn't. He has everything to gain by treating SweetRobin with indifference and Sansa with creepy solicitous 'paternal' affection. Everything to lose if he took the converse route. 

Petyr Baelish behaves in the way that serves his hidden interests best, regardless of the truth. He despises forthright characters that act from their true feelings, like Catelyn, Eddard, and Cersei. For such as these, displays of affection do reveal something about their character.

Even for these, I don't think we could form any certain conclusions on the paternity of their children from the affection or lack of affection they display. I refer you to Tywin, Lord Frey, Stannis, Craster, Lord Rickard Stark, King Balon, Lord Manderly, Lord Bolton as well. 

But for Petyr Baelish especially, affect is no clue to his true feelings, let alone the truth. He is no point of view character, that we explicitly know the thinking and feelings of, still we see enough to know the key to understanding the feelings he displays is to identify his hidden interest (among the confusion of hidden interests he is currently juggling), and what he wants to get out of a given interaction with our point of view, what a display of affection or anger would deliver him.

Even when our point of view observes rather than interacts with him (as is sometimes the case with Sansa and Tyrion) we have to remember that Petyr Baelish is very mindful of bystanders, even the little people. He takes note of who sees and hears what, and often makes a point of setting up a witnesses frame of view, and ensuring they see and hear what suits him best. I don't think any point of view has caught Petyr off guard yet, although if anyone has, it would be Sansa rather than Tyrion, I think.

Petyr seems to have a genuine hatred of Tyrion, when we look at the way he sets up the Imp to other characters, there seems something more of malice than he normally bothers with - but perhaps it is just that he knows how sceptical and quick witted and adroit Tyrion is, how reluctant he is to serve the interest of Petyr Baelish.

Or perhaps because Petyr knows what a mouth Tyrion has on him.   How inclined he is to say puncturing things like "Littlefinger has never loved anyone but Littlefinger, and I promise you that it is not your hand that he boasts of". Or "That title may not be as empty as you think,Littlefinger does nothing without good reason." Nobody actually heeds these warnings, prescient as they seem to be, still, Baelish isn't going to love him for voicing them. The give-away that Baelish genuinely dislikes Tyrion quite as much as Tyrion does him is not in Tyrion's paranoid suspicions, nor Baelish's chummy and fawning behaviour towards him. It is in the number of times he brings Tyrion into the mix unnecessarily, when Tyrion is not around. Did he really need to claim the dagger was Tyrion's? Wouldn't it be more consistent and just as effective for him to claim the Queen had sent the catspaw?  Was it really useful to him to tell Sansa about Tysha's rape? Also in the understanding people had of the war by the time Tyrion was up and well enough to be saddled with the books, like Calonne after Necker or Bernanke after Greenspan.

Tyrion isn't the sole voice deprecating Petyr Baelish. Varys also points out that Littlefinger loves Littlefinger, but he speaks confidentially, after claiming to have ascertained he could trust his listener (Ned). Also, Varys takes care to serves Littlefinger's interests as if they were his own (as they well might be in fact).  Still, Varys pointedly claims as a point of difference that he acts 'for the realm' and Baelish for self interest.  It is equally impossible to tell what really motivates Baelish - is he as cold-blooded as he appears, and plotting to take the Iron Throne for himself? (and if not for himself, then whom?) - or is there a proud heart smouldering from grudges eighteen years in the making? - or is it just the money?

Perhaps his attacks on Tyrion are not motivated by dislike so much as Petyr seeing a future where Tywin dies and Tyrion is Lord of Casterley Rock and Warden of the West.  On the face of it, it wouldn't be too hard for the Lord Paramount of the Vale and Rivers to divide and conquer Dorne and Highgarden. But if there was a skilled diplomat like Tyrion holding a fortress like the Rock as Warden of the West, keeping them united, and instead sowing seeds of division in the quarrelsome rabble that are the Lords of the Vale and the Trident... I can see how an inheriting Tyrion could rain on King Petyr's parade that way.

Also, for at least as long as the Lannisters have real gold of the kind dug up from the ground, and real wealth in the form of land and serfs and bannerlords, and someone who Cersei can't get to in charge, they can afford  afford a ruinously expensive thing that Petyr Baelish can't  - their own army. That really does make a difference. I mean, money and diplomacy only get you so far in a war, and Petyr seems to have only about 20 guards to call his own.

On the other hand, he seems to give instruction and coin to a lot of hidden daggers. From my own reading of the books, it seems that Ser Mandon Moore was one of Petyr's hidden daggers, instructed to assassinate Tyrion on the bridge of ships after he had defended Tyrion valiantly as they repulsed the rammers of the gate.

To me it seems there are heaps of things Petyr is responsible for - killing Ned and all his household guard, hooking Renly up with Loras and hatching the plot to hook Margaery up with King Robert. The Tourney of the Hand seems to me to be designed primarily to give Petyr Baelish an opportunity to plot sedition with the puissant lords of Westeros, and to pocket plenty of the crown's money by way of his trade interests.

The famine of Kings Landing seems a way of consolidating Petyr's trade interests, after he had persuaded Eddard to give him the money to purchase the Goldcloaks. The whole riot of King's landing seems to have been stage managed by Baelish - he gave Joffrey the crossbow, then sent the woman with the baby Joffrey shot to the gates with the rumour that they were distributing food. He loaned money to the builders who were constructing the catapults  that threw the shit, and owned men in the goldcloaks that lined the way to the quay, as well as sell-swords in the crowd in front of them. It seems to me that Petyr Baelish wanted Aron Santagar dead (whose job was to keep the dagger he claimed was his, once it became the property of King Robert)  and Preston Greenfield, who happened to be the knight on guard at Maegor's when Joffrey killed the baby (thinking he had only hit the woman's arm), creating the distraction required for Sansa to meet Dontos in the Godswood.  Also,  Preston was a knight that owed him nothing, selected by King Robert, unlike the grateful Ser Balon Swann that took his place. The person or persons who murdered Preson had bladed weapons. They came to see Princess Myrcella and her large police detachment with bladed weapons in hand.  Apparently unlike the High Septon's attackers. Do you know how hard it is to physically tear a large body apart with bare hands? Even as a group effort, I don't buy it.  The High Septon had known of the arrangements to forgive Ned Stark and send him to the wall. And perhaps, in the fuss he made afterwards, had discovered that Janos Slynt had a friend who paid him well to put Lord Eddard's neck before King Joffrey, and made sure Payne was there with Ice in hand when he did. Likewise, Janos Slynt's cashed-up friend had him send Aller Deem to the brothel, and men out for the boy that Varys had 'prenticed to the blacksmith, with what looked exactly like a Royal warrant (but was never opened.)  We know for a fact that Petyr paid Janos to kill Ned's house-guard, and ensured Janos got his red-tipped sigil. There might have been as many as nine Goldcloaks that couldn't be bought, that were destined to die in the riots, and forty men Ser Jacelyn could trust that would retire wounded. Someone is putting in a good word for 'bluff and honest' Ser Janos. Someone had sparrow-seers educating the faithful on the deamon monkey and the Fat Septon's greed. It would be possible for someone knew  where there would be gaps in the defence, gaps where the crowd, seeded with sell-swords Cersei's and Tyrion's coin had paid for, but people like Petyr and Bronn had procured for them, came through and wrought such violence. Gaps formed by the deaths of goldcloaks that couldn't be corrupted, or remembered too much from the days of Slynt. The manse of a goldsmith was burnt down in the riots, and it seems to me  Sansa (who, no doubt was intended for abduction then, as Tyrek was) noted that these starvelings of tremendous strength were throwing eggs. Lollys was pregnant before she was 'raped half a hundred times' (Dontos pointed out to Sansa earlier that even if there were Antler men meetings held in her bedroom every full moon, nobody would think to ask Lollys what was up with that. But someone wanted Tanda good and scared, and Lollys unable to make a credible claim of her child's paternity. My guess is it is Bronn's, and Bronn and Chiggen were Petyr's men before they were Catelyn's or Tyrion's. And Shae may well have been a hidden dagger too, she was chosen for Tyrion by Bronn, the knight she was with being one of Clegane's crew if she told it true when she said at Tyrion's trial that he was on the van at the Green Fork and slain by Tyrion (perhaps the guy that told him to die?)  Bronn was pretty active after the riots, dispersing roving mobs and dousing fires. I'm guessing the roving mobs looted places that were not protected by guards selected by every Antlerman's favourite banker, those premises inhabited by the competition, before they dispersed. Guessing too that the places that burned down were not collateral for any loans Lord Baelish held. Unless the site was worth a lot due to it's valuable location and the loan not so much. I'm seeing the same granular level of planning that resulted in Joffrey's wedding, that also happened when Lord Baelish wasn't there.

So yes, a lot of stuff that is commonly attributed to Cersei, Janos, the Tyrells, Renly, Varys, and even Lord Tywin or Edmure or Jorah, that I slot home to Lord Baelish. I'm one of those people who think Baelish was behind practically everything. Fathering SweetRobin in his absence would be no sweat by comparison to some of his other shenanigans .

Even if you don't share my rather extreme view of the extent of Littlefinger's influence, and  even if you are quite a casual reader, you would have to have noticed that the one sure way of never finding out a thing about Petyr Baelish, is to take the emotions he displays as an indication of how he feels.

If he isn't conniving and contriving and displaying the exact opposite of what he feels, his feelings make no sense at all. He is happy and unconcerned when in obvious peril. He is turned on by Lysa. He loves dining with Lady Tanda and Lollys.  Nothing he likes better than entertaining enemies that threaten his life and grovelling to people that openly despise him and tell him to his face that they dislike him, or that he is too low a man to be favoured with any mark of distinction for his services, or imply that so great a mark of distinction as their notice (or Lollys' hand in marriage) should be more than sufficient for him.

Logically, when he toys absently with a pen, that is the time to wonder what papers he has just signed, or is just about to sign. When he loudly and publicly backs the Kingslayer, that is the time to look for clues that he rigged the match to favour the Hound, but as a bookie would win it all and more when the next match is thrown by a canny deal with the horse traders on the one hand, and an unfortunate but predictable choice on the other. (I also think Loras's red rose was meant to send a special message, but to Lord Baelish, not Sansa).

TL;DR Littlefinger's failure to display affection for SweetRobin is a better proof that he is SweetRobin's father than that he isn't. Although either way it's a weak proof.

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 4:07 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

It's not suspicious for Robert to have brown hair when his mother's father Hoster Tully had brown hair. It's not as though he came out with some out of left field hair color that none of his recent ancestors had. There is one generation between him and his brown haired grandfather. His brown haired grandfather that had a brother with auburn hair, and children with auburn hair. There's nothing unusual about that. And we are missing information about the hair color of Lysa's mother Minisa Whent, and Jon's father Jasper, and Jon's unknown mother. For that matter, the closest thing to a description of Jon's hair color is in a description of Harrold Hardyng, where it isn't explicitly clear that he shares the same hair color as Jon, and whose hair is described as "sandy blonde" anyways: "Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose."

That's not how hair color works though.  I know this isn't the real world but seeing as how GRRM used hair color to establish the parentage of Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella, I don't think we should ignore it.  Each parent has two genes for hair color.  When you have a recessive color hair such as blonde or Auburn, then both of your genes are for that color, and you cannot pass on the gene for another color, such as brown.  So neither Jon Aryn (blonde) or Lysa (Auburn) could have given Robert a brown gene, in the real world that is.

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 3:10 PM, zandru said:

This is another overwhelming "clue" that SURPRISE!!! Lysa and Jon Arryn's son IS their son! (Who would have thought?) Quibbling over the hair color - especially over shades of brown!! the most common Anglo hair color in the world! - is, in my opinion, a fool's errand. I can see distinguishing between black hair which dominates, generation after generation, regardless of who was crossbred, and generations of golden hair which don't always breed true, but splitting hairs over brown v auburn brown v reddish brown v mousy brown v ... well, you get the picture. It's a nearly meaningless "distinction."

Regarding a "secret affair":  if Lysa typically screams like one of Baelish's 'hos in bed, then if Lysa and Petyr had gotten it on (1) It would have been noticed in the Red Keep, and (2) Baelish probably wouldn't have done it more than once. But he's not stupid enough to set himself up to be potentially revealed by gabby, braggy Lysa, is he?

Gabby, braggy, and somewhat deranged Lysa, who would stop at nothing to shame her horrid father Hoster and to get her soft white hands on Petyr's dear body again. She didn't - not until they rendesvoused in the Baelish Castlette in the Fingers.

I think there are some quotes that can be fairly used, mainly the one when she is hysterical at the moon door, but when she is talking to someone else as in this quote, she isn't just going to tell them the truth about Robert.

[ravenous reader]

The clue is in the text. Pay attention to GRRM's wordplay:

Sweetrobin is a robin, not a falcon. Illegitimate species of bird has infiltrated the nest (Eyrie=falcon's nest). Someone was cuckolded...

[Lady Fevre Dream]

On 9/25/2018 at 8:38 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

Nope. Lysa is explicitly clear that she "would have given" Petyr a son, "but they murdered him."

"NO!" Lysa gave Sansa's head another wrench. Snow eddied around them, making their skirts snap noisily. "You can't want her. You can't. She's a stupid empty-headed little girl. She doesn't love you the way I have. I've always loved you. I've proved it, haven't I?" Tears ran down her aunt's puffy red face. "I gave you my maiden's gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn't me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me . . ." (ASOS: Sansa VII)

She wants to make a child with Petyr, but she has no living child with Petyr.

I have to ask, as I notice this all the time in these discussions, but:  I can't be the only one that thinks what was given to Lysa was MORE THAN regular moon tea, can I?  I always took the rest of the list of ingredients to mean that it was all put together somehow different than regular ole morning after or pre next menstrual cycle moon tea.  Hence all the other ingredients that Lysa lists.  I always kinda thought the wormwood and pennyroyal were the extra kick, for some reason. 

ETA:  I do think it odd that all the problematic things about Robert almost suggest that he could be Littlefinger's but it never seems to add up in story or dialogue. 

[Lollygag]

31 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I have to ask, as I notice this all the time in these discussions, but:  I can't be the only one that thinks what was given to Lysa was MORE THAN regular moon tea, can I?  I always took the rest of the list of ingredients to mean that it was all put together somehow different than regular ole morning after or pre next menstrual cycle moon tea.  Hence all the other ingredients that Lysa lists.  I always kinda thought the wormwood and pennyroyal were the extra kick, for some reason. 

ETA:  I do think it odd that all the problematic things about Robert almost suggest that he could be Littlefinger's but it never seems to add up in story or dialogue. 

Lysa ruling the Vale as regent or whatever the term is until Robert Arryn comes of age becomes like Cersei ruling as regent until Tommen comes of age if Robert, like Tommen, is fathered by another man. Both Cersei and Lysa are in a position which isn’t their’s and they’re there by deceit.

I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I think a good case could be made that Lysa is not being honest with herself about Robert’s father because of the implications and that a position which she enjoys is not actually hers. If so, then Lysa may be dissing LF because his son can't give her the position that Jon's son could, which should surely sting for LF. Not that I'm crying for him, but that might explain why that scene ended with LF killing her.

 

[Rufus Snow]

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

"NO!" Lysa gave Sansa's head another wrench. Snow eddied around them, making their skirts snap noisily. "You can't want her. You can't. She's a stupid empty-headed little girl. She doesn't love you the way I have. I've always loved you. I've proved it, haven't I?" Tears ran down her aunt's puffy red face. "I gave you my maiden's gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn't me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me . . ."

"That's past and done, Lysa. Lord Hoster's dead, and his old maester as well." Littlefinger moved closer. "Have you been at the wine again? You ought not to talk so much. We don't want Alayne to know more than she should, do we? Or Marillion?"

I know people have been citing this as 'evidence' against Robert being LF's son, but what Lysa actually said is in reference to that one single occasion.

It doesn't say anything else about what might have happened since that day - the sort of thing which LF didn't want her telling Sansa perhaps? It's clear from the ellipsis that Lysa was going to say more, give more proof of how much she loves LF, but LF interrupted her. What else might she have said? 'I waited for you all those years', or 'We made up for lost time at King's Landing' or 'but we finally made Robert together', perhaps. We can't KNOW she would be saying any of these things, but what she did manage to say does not rule any of this out either.

[zandru]

7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

...but what she did manage to say does not rule any of this out either.

Whatever.

Honestly, don't you think Lysa would have made mention of "their son Robert" had this been the case? Lysa was pretty gabby when she got off the boat at Sheepsh* Towers and had to be told to cool it. She was really gabby when she was trying to kill Sansa, figuring (like the stereotypical villain expounding on his master plan to rule the world to his soon-to-be-dead victim) that Sansa wouldn't be around long. Yet never once does Lysa say or imply that little "Sweetrobin" is Petyr's offspring. Indeed, were this the case, they both might have expressed concerned about Robert's right to called Jon Arryn's heir.

We may find out more in The Winds of Winter - but I think not, because it's a non-issue. Sweetrobin clearly did not spring from the sneaky loins of Littlefinger. It's what the available evidence shows.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Not that it appears to matter in the novels, (karma/Cursed, if LF successfully poisons him to death) however, I also believe that Sweet Robin is LF's kid. Genetically, he is small and wimp like LF was when he was younger, the hair etc. John Arryn was Blond when he was younger per the comparison made to him and Harold Hardying. 

[Rufus Snow]

7 hours ago, zandru said:

Whatever.

Honestly, don't you think Lysa would have made mention of "their son Robert" had this been the case? Lysa was pretty gabby when she got off the boat at Sheepsh* Towers and had to be told to cool it. She was really gabby when she was trying to kill Sansa, figuring (like the stereotypical villain expounding on his master plan to rule the world to his soon-to-be-dead victim) that Sansa wouldn't be around long. Yet never once does Lysa say or imply that little "Sweetrobin" is Petyr's offspring. Indeed, were this the case, they both might have expressed concerned about Robert's right to called Jon Arryn's heir.

We may find out more in The Winds of Winter - but I think not, because it's a non-issue. Sweetrobin clearly did not spring from the sneaky loins of Littlefinger. It's what the available evidence shows.

Whatever?

We never get a PoV of either Lysa or LF; LF is often shutting her down when she's speaking in front of others (ie us) - as in this instance; the available evidence shows what LF allows it to show.

[the trees have eyes]

5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Whatever?

We never get a PoV of either Lysa or LF; LF is often shutting her down when she's speaking in front of others (ie us) - as in this instance; the available evidence shows what LF allows it to show.

Not to quibble but Lysa clearly says far more in  front of Sansa than LF wants her to know.  That's why she ends up flying out The Moon Door.

What Sansa learns (though she blanks it out due to the stress of the situation) is that Lysa slept with LF and their child was aborted and that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn at Petyr's urging so they could be together.  If they were already having a longstanding affair (like Jaime and Cersei) and had replaced Jon's child with Petyr's (as Robert's children were replaced with Jaime's) this would not be necessary.  Plus the author gave us this story with the Jaime-Cersei-Robert menage-a-trois: I don't see the same story playing out with Petyr-Lysa-Jon.  Sure the same elements are there but I doubt we get exactly the same outcome right down to the planting of an illegitimate child under the husband's nose.

There is nothing conclusive in what Lysa says to prove that she only slept with Petyr the once (before their marriage) or that he only got her pregnant once but the way she speaks in the passages others have quoted from the Sansa POVs supports that conclusion,

[Peach King]

On 10/14/2018 at 2:43 PM, Walda said:

hooking Renly up with Loras and hatching the plot to hook Margaery up with King Robert.

Uh when did Littlefinger do that? Renly hooked up with Loras because they were together for many years, he was his squire at Storm's End. And there's no hints that he came up with the Margaery plan. If Margaery became queen, it would improve Renly's own standing in court since he has a personal connection to the royal couple, plus it gets rid of a hated enemy, and it benefits Mace too, he gets to have his grandchildren on the throne. Mace and Renly were behind the plot. 

[Springwatch]

SR is ugly and scrawny, just like a baby falcon. He's crazy to see people killed, to see them fly. He's wild. That's all the proof we'll ever get.

[Bael's Bastard]

The idea that Lysa had Robert with Littlefinger is no more than fan fiction.

Lysa explicitly states that Robert is Jon's seed:

Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, "Come to Mother, my sweet one." She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. "Isn't he beautiful? And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear. Jon knew. The seed is strong, he told me. His last words. He kept saying Robert's name, and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy my baby was going to be." (AGOT: Catelyn VI)

Lysa explicitly states that her child with Littlefinger was murdered:

"You may not." Her aunt's breath smelled of wine. "If you were anyone else, I would banish you. Send you down to Lord Nestor at the Gates of the Moon, or back to the Fingers. How would you like to spend your life on that bleak shore, surrounded by slatterns and sheep pellets? That was what my father meant for Petyr. Everyone thought it was because of that stupid duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn't so. Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for. I am telling you all this so you will understand how much we love each other, how long we have suffered and dreamed of one another. We made a baby together, a precious little baby." Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. "When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again. Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them . . . no more than I'll let you steal my Petyr Littlefinger. Do you hear me, Alayne or Sansa or whatever you call yourself? Do you hear what I am telling you?" (ASOS: Sansa VII)

"NO!" Lysa gave Sansa's head another wrench. Snow eddied around them, making their skirts snap noisily. "You can't want her. You can't. She's a stupid empty-headed little girl. She doesn't love you the way I have. I've always loved you. I've proved it, haven't I?" Tears ran down her aunt's puffy red face. "I gave you my maiden's gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn't me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me . . ." (ASOS: Sansa VII)

Lysa is completely hysterical at this point, and isn't concealing any secrets.

Just a few lines after Littlefinger tells her she shouldn't talk so much, as they don't want Alayne to know more than she should, or Marillion, what does Lysa do? She drops the bombshells that:

- Littlefinger told her to poison Jon's wine
- She poisoned Jon's wine, as Littlefinger told her to
- Littlefinger told her to write Catelyn and tell her the Lannisters killed Jon
- She wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters killed Jon, as Littlefinger told her to

Lysa clearly does not believe that Littlefinger fathered Robert, Lysa clearly believes that the child she did make with Littlefinger was murdered, and Lysa is clearly not concealing any secrets in her hysterical state at the end of ASOS, as she is admitting that she murdered Jon Arryn at Littlefinger's urging, and lied to Catelyn that the Lannisters were responsible at Littlefinger's urging.

Robert's brown hair is not at all an issue.

1. Robert's grandfather Hoster Tully had brown hair.

2. We don't know what shade of brown Robert's hair is.

3. We don't know what color Jon Arryn's hair was.

The only thing we have been told is that "men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold [Hardyng] had his look." Which comes after the following description of Harrold:

- clean-limbed
- handsome
- straight as a lance
- hard with muscle

And before the following description of Harrold

- a mop of sandy blond hair
- pale blue eyes
- an aquiline nose

In other words, it isn't explicitly clear that Jon's hair color was actually "sandy blond," and even if it were, it isn't clear what difference, if any, there is between the hair color of Robert and Jon.

So, as is so often the case on these forums, this is a theory based on absolutely no evidence, and, in fact, contrary to all evidence.

[Lollygag]

I'm on the fence personally about this, but to point out a few things...

20 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Lysa explicitly states that Robert is Jon's seed:

Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, "Come to Mother, my sweet one." She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. "Isn't he beautiful? And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear. Jon knew. The seed is strong, he told me. His last words. He kept saying Robert's name, and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy my baby was going to be." (AGOT: Catelyn VI)

Lysa is talking to Catelyn here. She's trying to sell Cat a story. GRRM often leaves clues when a character is lying and we have one here: "And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear" immediately precedes Lysa's swearing that Robert is strong. And the statement sounds a bit crazy. Whatever conclusion is made about this, I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

25 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Lysa explicitly states that her child with Littlefinger was murdered:

"You may not." Her aunt's breath smelled of wine. "If you were anyone else, I would banish you. Send you down to Lord Nestor at the Gates of the Moon, or back to the Fingers. How would you like to spend your life on that bleak shore, surrounded by slatterns and sheep pellets? That was what my father meant for Petyr. Everyone thought it was because of that stupid duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn't so. Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for. I am telling you all this so you will understand how much we love each other, how long we have suffered and dreamed of one another. We made a baby together, a precious little baby." Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. "When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again. Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them . . . no more than I'll let you steal my Petyr Littlefinger. Do you hear me, Alayne or Sansa or whatever you call yourself? Do you hear what I am telling you?" (ASOS: Sansa VII)

"NO!" Lysa gave Sansa's head another wrench. Snow eddied around them, making their skirts snap noisily. "You can't want her. You can't. She's a stupid empty-headed little girl. She doesn't love you the way I have. I've always loved you. I've proved it, haven't I?" Tears ran down her aunt's puffy red face. "I gave you my maiden's gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn't me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me . . ." (ASOS: Sansa VII)

Lysa is completely hysterical at this point, and isn't concealing any secrets.

Just a few lines after Littlefinger tells her she shouldn't talk so much, as they don't want Alayne to know more than she should, or Marillion, what does Lysa do? She drops the bombshells that:

- Littlefinger told her to poison Jon's wine
- She poisoned Jon's wine, as Littlefinger told her to
- Littlefinger told her to write Catelyn and tell her the Lannisters killed Jon
- She wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters killed Jon, as Littlefinger told her to

Lysa clearly does not believe that Littlefinger fathered Robert, Lysa clearly believes that the child she did make with Littlefinger was murdered, and Lysa is clearly not concealing any secrets in her hysterical state at the end of ASOS, as she is admitting that she murdered Jon Arryn at Littlefinger's urging, and lied to Catelyn that the Lannisters were responsible at Littlefinger's urging.

Again, I think that what Lysa believes needs to be taken with several grains of salt as she's clearly delusional and has apparently spent most of her life in delusion. What Lysa believes doesn't necessarily mean it may be true especially when it affects her so personally. While Lysa didn't enjoy being Jon's wife in the least, she clearly loves the trappings of being Lady Arryn. If she believes that Robert is LF's then she's no more than Cersei passing off another man's child as his own and thus isn't entitled at all to the trappings she enjoys. It makes sense to me that Lysa would delude herself as to Robert's father if it means she gets to believe herself entitled to ruling the Vale. I think this is inconclusive.

31 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Robert's brown hair is not at all an issue.

1. Robert's grandfather Hoster Tully had brown hair.

2. We don't know what shade of brown Robert's hair is.

3. We don't know what color Jon Arryn's hair was.

Agree. Lysa had reddish-brown hair, so based on Lysa alone, the brown may have been what carried.

34 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The only thing we have been told is that "men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold [Hardyng] had his look." Which comes after the following description of Harrold:

- clean-limbed
- handsome
- straight as a lance
- hard with muscle

And before the following description of Harrold

- a mop of sandy blond hair
- pale blue eyes
- an aquiline nose

In other words, it isn't explicitly clear that Jon's hair color was actually "sandy blond," and even if it were, it isn't clear what difference, if any, there is between the hair color of Robert and Jon.

Technically we don't know what Jon's hair color was, but for it to be anything other than sandy-blonde would be very skivvy writing and unusual for GRRM who uses hair color to mark similarities between characters. I've never seen anyone say that two people with the same eye color or nose type look alike in general based on just that. Ever. There has to be more. Pale blue eyes and aquiline noses are just too common to be standout features in their own right.

But hair color is often on it's own enough to say people look alike. They're usually wrong on this, but they do it all the same.

But it's entirely possible for Jon to be sandy-blonde, Lysa to be red-brown and Robert to have brown hair. It would come from Lysa.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

@Lollygag

Those are poor attempts to dismiss Lysa's statements, especially the ones made in private in front of Sansa, Marillion, and Littlefinger, as she is revealing other dark secrets.

The idea that she is capable at that point of concealing that Littlefinger fathered Robert when she is spilling the beans about murdering her husband and provoking her sister and the Starks against the Lannisters, or that she has deluded herself into believing Jon fathered Robert when he didn't, are not plausible explanations of these quotes, which are all consistent with each other, but not consistent with these theories. They are poor explanations for a baseless fan fiction.

Regarding the comparison between Harrold and a young Jon Arryn, there are a number of physical descriptions contained in the statement (clean-limbed, handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle, a mop of sandy blonde hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose), and they need not all be identical to Jon's for the statement to be accurate. Either way, we don't know the shade of brown of Robert's hair, and we have never been told the color or shade of Jon's hair. 
 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

@Lollygag

Those are poor attempts to dismiss Lysa's statements, especially the ones made in private in front of Sansa, Marillion, and Littlefinger, as she is revealing other dark secrets.

The idea that she is capable at that point of concealing that Littlefinger fathered Robert when she is spilling the beans about murdering her husband and provoking her sister and the Starks against the Lannisters, or that she has deluded herself into believing Jon fathered Robert when he didn't, are not plausible explanations of these quotes, which are all consistent with each other, but not consistent with these theories. They are poor explanations for a baseless fan fiction.

Regarding the comparison between Harrold and a young Jon Arryn, there are a number of physical descriptions contained in the statement (clean-limbed, handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle, a mop of sandy blonde hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose), and they need not all be identical to Jon's for the statement to be accurate. Either way, we don't know the shade of brown of Robert's hair, and we have never been told the color or shade of Jon's hair. 
 

They're not dismissals, they are cause for doubt. As I said repeatedly.

As for the bolded, possible self-delusion over Robert's paternity/her link to LF (or suspicions of Robert's paternity) and the Arryn/Lannister plot are not equivalents. Self-delusions can be so deep that breaking from the delusions can cause psychological breaks as we see when Lysa begins to realize that she's been deluding herself all along about LF's feelings for her. Lysa hasn't shown any conflict over killing Jon or lying to Cat. Can't disagree more.

If you have two clean-limbed, handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle, same eye color and same nose but one is black haired and one is blonde, people will not describe them as looking alike in general. GRRM has constructed his world based on families and their similarities based primarily on hair color with other traits being secondary. No, this isn't typical usage on GRRM's part or on the part of everyday people. Technically we don't know, but any other conclusion would be a significant anomaly from what's already been written.

If you want to take Lysa at face value, go ahead. But GRRM wouldn't give Robert these attributes if he didn't want readers to question this to whatever ends. He knew what questions would come up in readers' minds if he gave LF-esque qualities to Robert.

[Walda]

12 hours ago, Peach King said:

Uh when did Littlefinger do that? Renly hooked up with Loras because they were together for many years, he was his squire at Storm's End. And there's no hints that he came up with the Margaery plan. If Margaery became queen, it would improve Renly's own standing in court since he has a personal connection to the royal couple, plus it gets rid of a hated enemy, and it benefits Mace too, he gets to have his grandchildren on the throne. Mace and Renly were behind the plot.  

Littlefinger did that about seven years earlier, after he used his work as a wine factor in the Vale to build a strong trade alliance with the Redwynes, who are the naval might of the Tyrells, and family, in a family that values family. On his promotion to Master of Coin, he was the person they knew in King's Landing and had the power to influence the Baratheon lords, that Mace would see, as he did, the value of a closer relationship between the Tyrells and the Storm's End Baratheons, and would appreciate the services of the friend who suggested his youngest son when Renly turned sixteen and realised he needed a squire. 

The hint that Petyr Baelish came up with the Margaery plan is the exquisite rose-gold locket with the miniature painted in the vivid Myrish style.  I doubt Margaery at age twelve or thirteen had travelled to Myr to have her portrait taken, more likely an artist trained in Myr had come to Highgarden to paint the lovely Margaery. The portrait could then make its way, via her brother, Renly's former squire and by then a knight in King's Landing to joust at the tourney for Joffrey's name day , to the pocket of King Renly, who would keep it because the smiling doe eyes and the soft brown hair made her look so very like his one true love. Petyr has a thing for exquisite gifts from Myr - there is the Myrish glass that Maester Luwin uses for his shadow-maps, the repeating crossbow he gave Joffrey.

And who gave Renly the notion that Margaery looked anything like Lyanna? Renly clearly had not thought it politic to show the miniature to Robert, or Cersei, or Jaime. I'm guessing someone from Jon Arryn's household, someone who had only the vaguest recollection of her, or some habitual liar that wanted Renly to believe they were dead ringers. Lord Renly was not a simpleton- he checked when he could.

Of course Mace and Renly both gained from this plot. You will notice that both Jon and Lysa Arryn gained by Petyr Baelish's service in the Vale and both Lord Tywin and the Realm had prospered while he was Robert's master of coin, that Tyrion and Cersei did not lose the battle when they sent Lord Baelish to broker an alliance with the Tyrells. Petyr is very good at creating the impression that he is only brokering the deals that other people bid him to.

But he is also rather good at working out what people will want before they do, and having everything set up ready for them at the exact minute they work it out for themselves, giving everyone else the illusion of control and the responsibility for his decisions, and getting win-wins for everybody. Consider the dwarves he hired for Joffrey's wedding - exactly what Joffrey wanted, eventually. 

Also consider, Petyr didn't murder Jon, or Eddard, or Joffrey, or Barra, or the High Septon. Other people had motives and gave instructions, or took the matter into their own hands. Lysa is a bit of an anomaly - I am wondering if perhaps he had intended Sansa to throw her out the moon door, but the little ninny didn't take the chance. It's also odd that he didn't make sure Marillion was dead, when the Knights Declarant would be happy to provide that service for him. I'm not sure the person who delivered the confession to the knights was actually Marillion, but I'm pretty sure Marillion isn't dead, and is still in Petyr's pay, and have no idea what would make Marillion so valuable to Petyr that he would want him alive even after he had witnessed Lysa's death.

[Rufus Snow]

On 10/15/2018 at 5:54 PM, the trees have eyes said:

There is nothing conclusive in what Lysa says to prove that she only slept with Petyr the once (before their marriage) or that he only got her pregnant once but the way she speaks in the passages others have quoted from the Sansa POVs supports that conclusion,

I think this below makes it more likely than not that they were conducting an affair at KL:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"No." She stamped a foot. "I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they'll hear me in the Eyrie!"

The context there reads to me as though it's the screaming instead of whispering that is the change, not that the 'when you love me' is something new. So the door is open to a Baelish spillage into the Arryn genepool. For all the quotes that have passed back and forth, none are conclusive - there is scope for interpretation either way.

The case FOR Robert being a Baelish is essentially 'it's possible'; the case AGAINST is likewise 'Lysa hasn't said so'. And that can be explained by either deep concealment on her own part, or a genuine belief that it is not so. It is not PROOF or DISPROOF in either direction, so I'll continue sitting on the fence as I don't really see it ever being resolved 'in world' either. Or mattering either - even if LF said 'Robert's my son', who's likely to believe him