Tender side of Tywin, Roose, And Walder.

[Dofs]

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Nowhere in the book is it claimed that the King's Justice's duties involve beating the king's wife when he does not like what she says. You have invented that, don't try to pass this shit off as canon. 

Look, I've already explained to you what I meant by bringing up Ilyn Payne. Literally. And you still completely misunderstand what I meant by that. Go back and read my previous posts again. And I've already retracted my point about the first hit, since I confused over what Robert hit Cersei the first time around. Thought it was over something else.

About everything else, it's either pure speculation based on nothing, or just you repeating yourself. I don't want to either continue to argue about whose nonfactual opinion is more true or to repeat my arguments and go in circles.

[Dofs]

double

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Look, I've already explained to you what I meant by bringing up Ilyn Payne.

I pointed out that Robert beating his wife makes him a bad husband and not only did you want to give him a pass for that but was offering brownie points for the fact that he did not have someone else beat his wife for him. 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

 

Literally. And you still completely misunderstand what I meant by that.

I understood just fine, you repeatedly in this topic have said that Robert should have had another man beat his wife. 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

 

Go back and read my previous posts again. And I've already retracted my point about the first hit, since I confused over what Robert hit Cersei the first time around. Thought it was over something else.

Finally, so you can now admit that hitting or having someone else hit a spouse because you are angry of what they said is a bad thing? 

 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

About everything else, it's either pure speculation based on nothing, or just you repeating yourself.

I have not speculated about anything

• 6'6 Robert has, on multiple occasions, physically hurt his wife
• He has sexually assaulted her when she refused him sex
• Tank like Robert has beaten his 4-6 year old son so bad that Stannis thought he killed him
• Robert was a father who played a pretty much nonexistent role in the raising of his children, both those he thought as legitimate and those who were bastards

Nothing I have said is speculation, you on the other hand...

 

[Clegane'sPup]

On 9/25/2018 at 2:42 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Do you think there was love in Walder's marriages?

I have no idea.

On 9/25/2018 at 2:42 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Roose is a man of legendary cruelty but did this carry over into his private life with Domeric's mom? 

Domeric's mom, how did she die?

On 9/25/2018 at 2:42 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jorah's second marriage basically had him worshipping Lynese?  The marriage had love going one way.  She didn't love him back.

I dunna know. It is said she left him.

On 9/25/2018 at 2:42 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Is that the way with Walder and his later wives? 

I dunna know.

On 9/25/2018 at 2:42 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Can you see Walder so starved for the love of his young wife to the extent of him spending great sums of money?

Nope.

On 9/25/2018 at 2:42 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

And Tywin.  How do you see Tywin keeping Joanna happy?

Supposedly Tyrion loved his Joanna.

 

As an aside I would suggest perhaps therapy for some folks considering the turn in this thread.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I pointed out that Robert beating his wife makes him a bad husband and not only did you want to give him a pass for that but was offering brownie points for the fact that he did not have someone else beat his wife for him.

You are getting into hurtful material. I don't know martin and did not live his life. BUT if you would do a tiny bit of research you would know that a husband beating his wife was common.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I understood just fine, you repeatedly in this topic have said that Robert should have had another man beat his wife. 

A King did not need a whipping wife.  A King did what the King wanted whether he was drunk or sober.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Finally, so you can now admit that hitting or having someone else hit a spouse because you are angry of what they said is a bad thing? 

Of course it is. Evidently you were fortunate in that you did not witness your father smack/slap or beat your mother.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I have not speculated about anything

• 6'6 Robert has, on multiple occasions, physically hurt his wife
• He has sexually assaulted her when she refused him sex
• Tank like Robert has beaten his 4-6 year old son so bad that Stannis thought he killed him
• Robert was a father who played a pretty much nonexistent role in the raising of his children, both those he thought as legitimate and those who were bastards

Nothing I have said is speculation, you on the other hand...

 

You may not have speculated about anything. You fed it though.

 

[Bernie Mac]

28 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You are getting into hurtful material. I don't know martin and did not live his life.

What on earth are you on about? 

A lot of you are making some odd leaps to try and justify nice guy Robert beating his wife. 

28 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

BUT if you would do a tiny bit of research you would know that a husband beating his wife was common.

Among the nobility it actually was not but I am more than happy for you to reveal all this research you have done on how common it was of kings beating their wives. 

 

28 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A King did not need a whipping wife.  A King did what the King wanted whether he was drunk or sober.

wow, so there are actually two of you now advocating Robert's rights to have others beat his wife for being sarcastic. 

28 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Of course it is.

My reply was to another poster over a remark he made. Unless that is an alt account of yours why are you answering for him. 

28 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

 

Evidently you were fortunate in that you did not witness your father smack/slap or beat your mother

I have zero idea what point you are trying to make here. None of us need to have seen our parents physically abuse eachother to know that what Robert (and Cersei) did was bad. 

28 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You may not have speculated about anything. You fed it though.

 

I have no idea what this means, can you clarify?

[Clegane'sPup]

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

What on earth are you on about? 

It's a short thread. I read it. I took issue with your debate with another poster and decided to engage.

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I have no idea what this means, can you clarify?

Of course you don't. AND no I won't.

[Bernie Mac]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

It's a short thread. I read it. I took issue with your debate with another poster and decided to engage.

What exactly did you take offense with?

All I said that Robert, who physically beat his wife and very young son and sexually assaulted his wife when she refused him sex, was a bad husband. Why does this offend you?

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

Of course you don't. AND no I won't.

There's a shocker. Make a unsubstantiated claim and when challenged on it refuse to back it up. 

[Clegane'sPup]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

All I said that Robert, who physically beat his wife and very young son and sexually assaulted his wife when she refused him sex, was a bad husband. Why does this offend you?

Robert used physical force against his wife.

In story that is a norm.

By today's standards it is not a norm.

My issue was how you interacted with a fellow poster.

11 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There's a shocker. Make a unsubstantiated claim and when challenged on it refuse to back it up. 

  

24 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

wow, so there are actually two of you now advocating Robert's rights to have others beat his wife for being sarcastic. 

Provide the quote that Robert had a wife beater in employment. Wife beater as in someone Robert summoned to beat his wife.

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Robert used physical force against his wife.

He beat her and also sexually assaulted her. 

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

In story that is a norm.

It is actually not, Name all the other husbands who we know have beat and sexually assaulted their wives?

Robert may not be the only one but it is not the norm. 

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

 

Provide the quote that Robert had a wife beater in employment.

At no point in this thread have I claimed he did. You are getting offended over comments not even made, that's healthy. 

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

Wife beater as in someone Robert summoned to beat his wife.

Yeah you may actually want to read the thread. It was DOFS who was claiming that Robert could have had Payne beat his wife. I was more than clear that was not in his job role. 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He beat her and also sexually assaulted her. 

I guess this is where you and I get into the specifics.  Provide the quote.

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is actually not, Name all the other husbands who we know have beat and sexually assaulted their wives?

Can't do it as you well know.

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robert may not be the only one but it is not the norm. 

Actually with the threats of beating and fucking of females is a norm in story. Especially whenya got ya blood lust up.

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

At no point in this thread have I claimed he did. You are getting offended over comments not even made, that's healthy

Ummmmmmmm, not sure how to take that. It can be a pos or neg.

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah you may actually want to read the thread. It was

I read the thread.

[Bernie Mac]

5 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I guess this is where you and I get into the specifics.  Provide the quote.

The sexual assaults

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. "You hurt me," she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. "It was not me, my lady," he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. "It was the wine. I drink too much wine." To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth. Years later at a feast, she heard him telling a serving wench how he'd cracked the tooth in a mêlée. Well, our marriage was a mêlée, she reflected, so he did not lie.

The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights.What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.

 

One of the physical assaults

Purple with rage, the king lashed out, a vicious backhand blow to the side of the head. She stumbled against the table and fell hard, yet Cersei Lannister did not cry out. Her slender fingers brushed her cheek, where the pale smooth skin was already reddening. On the morrow the bruise would cover half her face. "I shall wear this as a badge of honor," she announced.

"Wear it in silence, or I'll honor you again," Robert vowed. 

Quote

Can't do it as you well know.

So why make a bogus claim in the first place knowing it was false? 

Quote

Actually with all the threats beating and fucking females is a norm in story. Especially whenya got ya blood lust up.

The topic is about husbands and you claimed husbands beating wives is the norm in this series, it clearly is not. 

Quote

Ummmmmmmm, not sure how to take that. It can be a pos or neg.

It was a statement of fact, you can take it however you want. 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. "You hurt me," she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. "It was not me, my lady," he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. "It was the wine. I drink too much wine."

Yep ole King Bob denied. Like sitting at the breakfast table and daddy says twasn't my fault twas the drink.

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

So why make a bogus claim in the first place knowing it was false? 

Dearie, sometimes shyte needs to be revealed.

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The topic is about husbands and you claimed husbands beating wives is the norm in this series, it clearly is not. 

Men fucking, beating and using women in this story is the norm.

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It was a statement of fact, you can take it however you want. 

 

Okay, thanks.

[Bernie Mac]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

Yep ole King Bob denied. Like sitting at the breakfast table and daddy says twasn't my fault twas the drink.

eh? You are coming off a little bizarre now. 

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

Dearie, sometimes shyte needs to be revealed.

Are you okay? You make a claim, 5 minutes later admit it was not true and now are telling people that you had to reveal it?

No offense but you are coming across a little inebriated. 

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

Men fucking, beating and using women in this story is the norm.

Beating and raping wives is not though. 

You are seriously going to some odd lengths to excuse Roberts treatment of his wife. 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? You are coming off a little bizarre now. 

Are you okay? You make a claim, 5 minutes later admit it was not true and now are telling people that you had to reveal it?

No offense but you are coming across a little inebriated. 

Beating and raping wives is not though. 

You are seriously going to some odd lengths to excuse Roberts treatment of his wife. 

 

You are boring me now. At least you are are not yammering at the other poster. Night night.

[Dofs]

On 10/1/2018 at 9:01 PM, Bernie Mac said:

I understood just fine, you repeatedly in this topic have said that Robert should have had another man beat his wife. 

I guess I'll repeat once more since you are so slow to understand. No, I did not said that Robert should have another man beat his wife. What I actually said, I explained, and you quoted and replied to said explanation. Seriously, how slow one can be?

On 10/1/2018 at 9:01 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Finally, so you can now admit that hitting or having someone else hit a spouse because you are angry of what they said is a bad thing? 

I never denied that.

On 10/1/2018 at 9:01 PM, Bernie Mac said:

I have not speculated about anything

• 6'6 Robert has, on multiple occasions, physically hurt his wife
• He has sexually assaulted her when she refused him sex
• Tank like Robert has beaten his 4-6 year old son so bad that Stannis thought he killed him
• Robert was a father who played a pretty much nonexistent role in the raising of his children, both those he thought as legitimate and those who were bastards

Nothing I have said is speculation, you on the other hand...

Oh, so what you wrote about Roose and Walder and their relationship with their wives is not speculation? Or you forgot about that already?

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

I guess I'll repeat once more since you are so slow to understand.

wow, getting personal now, very grown up. 

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

 

No, I did not said that Robert should have another man beat his wife.

Yes you actually did. In your own words

"Robert hit Cersei twice and the first time he did it, it was for something he should have let Ilyn Payne 'hit' her."

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

 

What I actually said, I explained, and you quoted and replied to said explanation. Seriously, how slow one can be?

You repeatedly said that Robert should have had another man beat his wife. In a discussion about Robert as a husband you acted like Robert beating Cersei instead of allowing another man to do so was a positive. 

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

I never denied that.

So why did you bring up Payne? Why did you try and give Robert a pass for beating his wife?

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

Oh, so what you wrote about Roose and Walder and their relationship with their wives is not speculation?

You claimed that Walder and Roose had done the same as Robert, I pointed out that there is zero evidence in the books for this. 

There is evidence on Roberts treatment of his wife, there is not the same for Walder or Roose. Pointing out that there is zero evidence for the claims you made is not speculation. 

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

Or you forgot about that already?

By all means quote them. 

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

wow, getting personal now, very grown up. 

Yes you actually did. In your own words

"Robert hit Cersei twice and the first time he did it, it was for something he should have let Ilyn Payne 'hit' her."

You repeatedly said that Robert should have had another man beat his wife. In a discussion about Robert as a husband you acted like Robert beating Cersei instead of allowing another man to do so was a positive. 

So why did you bring up Payne? Why did you try and give Robert a pass for beating his wife?

You claimed that Walder and Roose had done the same as Robert, I pointed out that there is zero evidence in the books for this. 

There is evidence on Roberts treatment of his wife, there is not the same for Walder or Roose. Pointing out that there is zero evidence for the claims you made is not speculation. 

By all means quote them. 

Bernie Mac,

What they meant by getting Ilyn Payne to 'hit' Cersei was that Robert would call on him to cut her head off - as Ser Ilyn was the king's executioner. Really, a bit extreme as a punishment for a veiled threat to a child that Robert hadn't been bothered about for years by the time he suggested bringing her to KL.

 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Bernie Mac,

What they meant by getting Ilyn Payne to 'hit' Cersei was that Robert would call on him to cut her head off - as Ser Ilyn was the king's executioner. Really, a bit extreme as a punishment for a veiled threat to a child that Robert hadn't been bothered about for years by the time he suggested bringing her to KL.

 

yeah, I got that. In the context of his point about Robert being a better husband than Walder, Roose or Tywin how does Robert hitting Cersei (what actually happened), having Payne hit her (which is what DOFS actually said) or having Payne chop her head off make him a better husband than any of the three. 

Perhaps you can answer why?

and since you are now speaking for him are you also agreeing with him when he says he gave Robert a pass for the first time he beat her?

 

Is crazy to me how many of you seem to be supporting Robert's right to beat his wife and arguing that he is a better husband than three men who have shown no such actions towards their wives. 

 

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

yeah, I got that. In the context of his point about Robert being a better husband than Walder, Roose or Tywin how does Robert hitting Cersei (what actually happened), having Payne hit her (which is what DOFS actually said) or having Payne chop her head off make him a better husband than any of the three. 

Perhaps you can answer why?

and since you are now speaking for him are you also agreeing with him when he says he gave Robert a pass for the first time he beat her?

 

Is crazy to me how many of you seem to be supporting Robert's right to beat his wife and arguing that he is a better husband than three men who have shown no such actions towards their wives. 

 

My apologies, I wasn't meaning to talk for anyone. I thought that DOFS was being a bit snarky with you rather than explaining his or her point.

I completely agree with you that Robert was an abusive husband who doesn't deserve any kind of pass for beating or raping his wife. If it was normal behaviour in Westeros, he wouldn't have had to blame the wine when Cersei complains about him hurting her in bed and he wouldn't have been so embarrassed when Ned saw him hitting Cersei.

I also agree that we don't have enough info to make a full judgement on Walder or Roose as husbands. Roose seems to get on quite well with Fat Walda but, being a psychopath, doesn't seem to care too much if Ramsay ends up killing her and any children she has (so not really my idea of a model husband). 

I know you have a soft spot for old Walder but based on his appearance in Dunk and Egg, he seems to have always been a rather unpleasant person and he hasn't really improved with age. There is something deeply creepy about a 90 year old husband with a 16 year old wife. I mean I am nearly 60 and Walder is still more that 30 years older than me.

Again, apologies for any unattended offence.