Tender side of Tywin, Roose, And Walder.

[cpg2016]

17 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Walder also chooses to house, feed and support all his children, grandchildren and their bastards even after they are grown adults. He could very easily send them away or kick them out, so there's that. 

He does this because it reflects well on him.  Walder Frey is doing obvious and unquestionable damage to his House by continuing to marry and have kids.  The number of extant Freys is impoverishing and dangerous, as we can clearly see throughout the series.  Walder does it because it strokes his ego and masculine pride that he can"field an army from his breeches".  We get absolutely no sense that he is tender or loving towards his wives, but sees them mainly as incubators for more children.  And given his attitude towards his kids and grandkids, which is entirely devoid of paternal instinct, we can imagine he's pretty self-absorbed and not a great patriarch.

Likewise, while Tywin may have "loved" Joanna, I think it's safe to assume it wasn't a healthy relationship.  He hates his son, views his other two kids as extensions of his own power and prestige, is a filthy, sexually repressed hypocrite, and pretty much borderline sociopath in every other way.  Given all that, I'm not sure why everyone is so predisposed to put a positive spin on his relationship with Joanna.  Every other piece of information we have regarding Tywin's personality indicates that while he may have listened to her opinion and valued her as a companion, she was also merely an appurtenance for him.

Roose is the most obvious case of the lot; he's a rapist, probably a serial rapist.  His attitude towards the murder of his son, and the murderer, is almost complete apathy.  He doesn't give a shit about Fat Walda, and he makes it entirely clear he has no compassion for her or their children, all of whom will be murdered by Ramsay.  He's the ultimate avatar of apathy; he's going to die, and once he's gone, he doesn't give a shit.  I don't think we're given a single example of decency from him

[The hairy bear]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'd disagree with that, Robert's the only one we know who has hit his wife (1), the only one we know who tried to rape his wife (2), the only one who beat his 4/6 year old son that witnesses thought he was dead (3), he seems far more uncaring/indifferent to his children than Walder (4) and the most openly promiscuous when it came to cheating (5).  

(1) Very fair point. I honestly can see both Roose and young Walder Frey physically abusing their wives, or at least making them live in fear of being hit. But it's a really valid point.

(2) I don't remember a reference of Robert raping Cersei. Can you point me to the quote? I've only been able to find: "I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber." I don't thing that qualifies.

(3) Again, I can't find the source of that. Cersei says: "He would have beat him if I'd allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I'd kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did." So, Robert beat Joffrey only once in his live, no one thought he had killed him, it was to punish a really horrendous act, and all that in a world where disciplining children in such a way is common enough.

(4) Robert has distanced himself from Cersei's children because she didn't allow him to. We have hints that with his baseborn children he is more caring. We know that he visited Mya daily even when he lost interest in her mother, and tried to bring her to court. We also hear of him visiting and playing with his baby children, and taking care of them financially. It's more that what Roose did with Ramsay, for instance. And we see how Walder is constantly and publicly insulting his sons. And we see how he makes no effort at all to save Jinglebell's life ("But that’s a grandson ... and he never was much use.")

(5) Being promiscuous is perfectly accepted in this society (for a man). Those are not love marriages. For instance, Catelyn thinks about Ned having a bastard: "He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs."

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 they were both as bad as each other the only difference is that Cersei beat Robert in the race to who would murder the other first.  

I strongly disagree here. Robert never intended, planned or thought of killing Cersei. And the things that he did to her pale in comparison to what she did to him.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

(1) Very fair point. I honestly can see both Roose and young Walder Frey physically abusing their wives, or at least making them live in fear of being hit. 

Based on what, them being 'villains'? 

There is as much evidence for Walder being physically abusive as there is Ned or Robb, which is to say there is none. 

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

(2) I don't remember a reference of Robert raping Cersei. Can you point me to the quote? I've only been able to find: "I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber." I don't thing that qualifies.

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. "You hurt me," she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. "It was not me, my lady," he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. "It was the wine. I drink too much wine." To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth. Years later at a feast, she heard him telling a serving wench how he'd cracked the tooth in a mêlée. Well, our marriage was a mêlée, she reflected, so he did not lie.

The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights.What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.

 

By our standards that is rape, the middle age is a little muddier but no potential wife would choose a husband like that. Robert is a gregarious likable character so people choose to ignore the awful aspects of his character because they can't link the two (much like you [and you are likely in the majority here] assuming Walder would threaten or actually beat his wives to keep them in line because of other negative aspects about his character) so will assume they are not true.  Happens in real life all the time, people refusing to accept that people they liked could commit heinous crimes. 

Robert is both one of the worst husbands and fathers in the series, not only that but he visits a specialist whore house for very young women

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert flushed. "Barra," he grumbled. "Is that supposed to please me? Damn the girl. I thought she had more sense."

"She cannot be more than fifteen, and a whore, and you thought she had sense?" Ned said, incredulous. His leg was beginning to pain him sorely. It was hard to keep his temper. "The fool child is in love with you, Robert."

 

We are talking about her being 13/14 when he got her pregnant. 

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

(3) Again, I can't find the source of that. Cersei says: "He would have beat him if I'd allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I'd kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did." So, Robert beat Joffrey only once in his live, no one thought he had killed him,

Stannis did. 

One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he'd killed him

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

 

it was to punish a really horrendous act, and all that in a world where disciplining children in such a way is common enough.

Myrcella was not yet born when Robert beat his 4 year old son for doing something (hunting and skinning animals) that Robert spent most of his time doing. There is no real excuse for a father treating a child like that. 

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

(4) Robert has distanced himself from Cersei's children because she didn't allow him to.

I'm sorry, but that is a weak excuse. He's the king, he can do as he pleases, he has proven to be a shit father to all his children. 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

 

We have hints that with his baseborn children he is more caring.

No we don't. Mya herds goats for a living

 And Petyr says he's loyal. He trusts him as much as he trusts anyone. Brune would be a good match for a bastard girl like Mya Stone, she thought. It might be different if her father had acknowledged her, but he never did. And Maddy says that she's no maid either.

Another works as a whore in the Riverlands, poor baby Barra is still living in a whore house after Robert hears of her birth, going hunting is more important than sending a steward to give some funds to help out his newborn bastard. 

He's an awful father but because he's Ned's friend people want to excuse him. 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

 

We know that he visited Mya daily even when he lost interest in her mother,

And then stopped. Robert, like Ned or Walder or many other better fathers, could have acknowledged her, had one of his vassals raise her as a Lady. He instead quickly lost interest. 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

 

and tried to bring her to court.

 

And then gave up.

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

 

 

We also hear of him visiting and playing with his baby children, and taking care of them financially.

No, you are mistaken. Apart from Edric there is zero mention of him looking after them financially. All actual evidence contradicts this. 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

 

It's more that what Roose did with Ramsay, for instance. And we see how Walder is constantly and publicly insulting his sons. And we see how he makes no effort at all to save Jinglebell's life ("But that’s a grandson ... and he never was much use.")

Walder is a far superior father to Robert, both to his legitimate children aqn

He could not possibly last much longer, all his sons agreed. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood.

 

Walder has acknowledged his bastards, raised them, educated them at great expense ( Lord Sunderland was bitching how expensive it was for sons to become knights) or even arranged marriages for some of them. 

 

In a typical fantasy series you'd be correct, Ned's best friend, the jovial Robert, would be a decent father and husband, the Tully's adversary, the proud Walder, would be a vile husband and father, GRRM's world is more realistic. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

(5) Being promiscuous is perfectly accepted in this society (for a man). Those are not love marriages. For instance, Catelyn thinks about Ned having a bastard: "He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs."

He was fucking women a few doors down from his wife, he was not being discreet. No wife wants their husbands cheating rubbed in their faces. 

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I strongly disagree here. Robert never intended, planned or thought of killing Cersei.

He's not a POV, we have no idea what he thought, planned or intended. 

Once he found out that his wife dared to cheat on him and have bastards he would have killed her, Cersei beat him to it. 

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

And the things that he did to her pale in comparison to what she did to him.

No, they don't. They were pretty much equally shit. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

21 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Walder has acknowledged his bastards, raised them, educated them at great expense ( Lord Sunderland was bitching how expensive it was for sons to become knights) or even arranged marriages for some of them. 

 

In a typical fantasy series you'd be correct, Ned's best friend, the jovial Robert, would be a decent father and husband, the Tully's adversary, the proud Walder, would be a vile husband and father, GRRM's world is more realistic. 

This is true. Walder has likely been a better father for all his bastards than a lot of noblemen who spread their seed upon peasant stock.. Unless the bastard sired upon a favored mistress(and a noblewoman), there’d be a fair chance the nobleman in question simply would have not taken the steps Walder did for his bastards.  If Walder wanted to he could have made it so that the bastards he helped upon peasant women, were treated as a peasant, even have it they(his peasant-born bastards), were literal servants around the castle. Such a situation I don’t imagine is unprecedented in Westeros in Westeros. Instead makes sure they all never worry about their next meal, their cloths are as good as their true born cousins/siblings, they are brought being treated by him generally as equals. It does seem he lives by the lessons he tried to impart on Stevron-blood is blood. The only really morally good thing shown about him-like Slynt(who is a scumbag, but it’s made clear he does care about his family when he begins to shake when Tyrion seemed to have plans for them). 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Another interesting case about Walder Frey is his grandson Jinglebell. The fact that he keeps him around and doesn't send him away seems unusually excepting. One would think a powerful and prideful lord would not want to showcase that he has a grandson that is simple, let alone keep him close and give him a purpose and not be embarrassed by it. I can't imagine other lords having a simple son/grandson and keep them as the fool of their castle. I'd imagine some would send them to the Wall or off to the woods to die,

[Dofs]

On 9/27/2018 at 2:15 AM, Bernie Mac said:

I'd disagree with that, Robert's the only one we know who has hit his wife

Robert hit Cersei twice and the first time he did it, it was for something he should have let Ilyn Payne 'hit' her. The second time he was an asshole but I have a hard time believing that neither Roose or Walder never hit their wives even once.

On 9/27/2018 at 2:15 AM, Bernie Mac said:

the only one we know who tried to rape his wife,

Come one, Roose is a serial rapist who goes around his lands and rapes peasant women. You think his wife would somehow be more sacred for him. And what about Walder? Think that all of his wives were giving consent to sleep with the old creepy geezer?

Quote

the only one who beat his 4/6 year old son that witnesses thought he was dead, he seems far more uncaring/indifferent to his children than Walder

This is not really about being a husband though. 

On 9/27/2018 at 2:15 AM, Bernie Mac said:

and the most openly promiscuous when it came to cheating. 

Roose was forcing women to 'cheat' with him. Yeah.

Robert was an absolutely awful husband but out of the three given, he was not worse than Roose or Walder, at most on their level. He is, of course, worse than Tywin but by all accounts, as a husband, Tywin would give a run for their money to even many decent men, the likes of Robert or Walder are not even in his league.

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Robert hit Cersei twice and the first time he did it,

So it only being twice should not count? Good to know where you stand on the subject, you are only a bad husband if it is more than twice. 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

 

and the first time he did it it was for something he should have let Ilyn Payne 'hit' her.

lol what? Since when is it okay that Queens get beat by guards for saying something mean?

The argument is about the built like a tank Robert being a bad husband, he was. Better husbands would find better ways to deal with 'mouthy' wives by resorting to violence. And to make it clear, Cersei is no better. 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

 

The second time he was an asshole but I have a hard time believing that neither Roose or Walder never hit their wives even once.

Robert definitely hit his wife, there is zero evidence that Walder, Roose, Ned, Robb or Jon Arryn hit their wives. As it stands Robert is the worst husband. 

Though can you give the evidence you have for either Roose or Walder being physically abusive?  

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Come one, Roose is a serial rapist who goes around his lands and rapes peasant women. You think his wife would somehow be more sacred for him.

Possible serial, but discreet. His wives are unlikely to know, certainly the sister, father and brothers of his first wife are on good terms with him (one of them even being named after him) and nothing Lady Dustin has said about him implies he was beating or threatening her sister. 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

 

You think his wife would somehow be more sacred for him. And what about Walder? Think that all of his wives were giving consent to sleep with the old creepy geezer?

All his wives did not marry a creepy old geezer.  I imagine the latter two, maybe three, will have almost certainly rather have married a younger man of a similar rank but for whatever reasons their guardians wanted them to marry Walder, and will have paid a dowry for it, and the women will have accepted the marriage. There is zero evidence that he will have physically forced them and ignored their protestations when they said 'no' like what happened to Cersei. 

We know that Robert has forced Cersei to have sex with him, assaulting her in the process. That makes him worse. 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

This is not really about being a husband though. 

Actually it is. Women do care about their future children and what kind of fathers their husbands will be. Don't take my word for it, ask some of the women in your life how important a quality it is when picking a spouse. 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Robert was an absolutely awful husband but out of the three given, he was not worse than Roose or Walder,

 

Yeah he was, he was absolutely a worse husband. As human beings you may have a point, but not as husbands. 

 

[Van Gogh]

23 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Another interesting case about Walder Frey is his grandson Jinglebell. The fact that he keeps him around and doesn't send him away seems unusually excepting. One would think a powerful and prideful lord would not want to showcase that he has a grandson that is simple, let alone keep him close and give him a purpose and not be embarrassed by it. I can't imagine other lords having a simple son/grandson and keep them as the fool of their castle. I'd imagine some would send them to the Wall or off to the woods to die,

Most of the opinion we got of Walder came from a Tully.  Cat was not objective.  She inherited some of that opinion from her father.  The text itself shows a man who takes care of his family.  Walder is a good family patriarch.  He's also a good businessman who manages his income producing assets very well. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Quote

Come one, Roose is a serial rapist who goes around his lands and rapes peasant women. You think his wife would somehow be more sacred for him.

Possible serial, but discreet. His wives are unlikely to know, certainly the sister, father and brothers of his first wife are on good terms with him (one of them even being named after him) and nothing Lady Dustin has said about him implies he was beating or threatening her sister. 

I don't see Roose ever losing his temper and hitting his wife or child if they randomly slighted or upset him like Robert. It pretty much goes against everything we know of Roose's disposition. He's always calm and calculating and doesn't seem to have much of a temper. Unlike Bob who was often a loose cannon and made very emotional decisions.  Almost the opposite of Roose and his code he lives by for being a lord/ruler. 

[Dofs]

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So it only being twice should not count? Good to know where you stand on the subject, you are only a bad husband if it is more than twice. 

Do you read and reply by sentences? You should read the whole post before replying to it, or at least edit your previous responses after you went through the whole post.

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol what? Since when is it okay that Queens get beat by guards for saying something mean?

Do you know who Ilyn Payne is?

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The argument is about the built like a tank Robert being a bad husband, he was. Better husbands would find better ways to deal with 'mouthy' wives by resorting to violence. And to make it clear, Cersei is no better. 

Clearly obvious that this was written before you read my post till the end.

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robert definitely hit his wife, there is zero evidence that Walder, Roose, Ned, Robb or Jon Arryn hit their wives. As it stands Robert is the worst husband. 

Though can you give the evidence you have for either Roose or Walder being physically abusive?  

As I've said, I have a hard time believing that they didn't. There are no instances shown where they beat their wives but there is nothing that shows that they don't do it. And the way these characters are, I believe they absolutely do it.

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Possible serial, but discreet. His wives are unlikely to know, certainly the sister, father and brothers of his first wife are on good terms with him (one of them even being named after him) and nothing Lady Dustin has said about him implies he was beating or threatening her sister. 

Lady Dustin didn't live with them to know what happened between Roose and his wive. And if you think that if Roose had beaten her a few times, then the wife and her family should have hated Roose, then no, it's not how it works.

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

All his wives did not marry a creepy old geezer.  I imagine the latter two, maybe three, will have almost certainly rather have married a younger man of a similar rank but for whatever reasons their guardians wanted them to marry Walder, and will have paid a dowry for it, and the women will have accepted the marriage. There is zero evidence that he will have physically forced them and ignored their protestations when they said 'no' like what happened to Cersei. 

First of all, how exactly the fact that not everyone married Walder when he was old somehow makes it any better? Do you just find any arguments for Robert to look as bad as possible or what? And flat out assuming that those women would be fine with sleeping with him just because their parents basically sold them to him? You are really scratching the barrel here.

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Actually it is. Women do care about their future children and what kind of fathers their husbands will be. Don't take my word for it, ask some of the women in your life how important a quality it is when picking a spouse. 

This is called being a father, not a husband. Of course women would like their husbands to be good fathers but father =/ husband.

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah he was, he was absolutely a worse husband. As human beings you may have a point, but not as husbands. 

We weren't shown their relationship with their wives so neither you or me can in fact judge whether Robert was worse than them or not. But wile I simply extrapolate from their characters, you base your conclusions on the fact that just because they are shitty assholes and flat out monsters to others, we weren't shown them being bad with their wives (or being good, or being anything ,really), hence the must have been fine husbands.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Do you read and reply by sentences?

Depends on the post. 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

 

You should read the whole post before replying to it, or at least edit your previous responses after you went through the whole post.

What needed editing?  Your post was suggesting that 6'6 Robert should get a pass for only beating his wife twice. You might want to reread your post and edit it if that was not your intention. 

 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Do you know who Ilyn Payne is?

Yes, do you?  I don't recall his duties including beating mouthy wives. 

 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Clearly obvious that this was written before you read my post till the end.

No, you made a point and I responded to it.  Out of the three he was the worst husband, most people would share my opinion that husbands (or wives) don't get a pass on the first few times they beat their partner.

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

As I've said, I have a hard time believing that they didn't.

Based on what? 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

 

There are no instances shown where they beat their wives but there is nothing that shows that they don't do it.

Going by that logic every spouse in the series is an abusive partner.  

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

And the way these characters are, I believe they absolutely do it.

 

Awful people can be good spouses, can treat people they care about well. Good people, by the same token, can be awful spouses, treating the people they care about awfully. 

Walder breaking guest rights in his 90's does not mean he has been a physically abusive husband, its a fucking leap and one of the reasons why there are so many miscarriages of justice towards people who have been in the system as their guilt is often assumed even if the crime they are being accused of has nothing to do with their past. 

 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Lady Dustin didn't live with them to know what happened between Roose and his wive.

and? You have invented an imaginary crime that no one in the books has suggested happened. The fact that her family are in the dark about this fanfiction you have came up with means it was unlikely to have happened.

The onus on to provide evidence for this is on you and her family being so close to Roose speaks against it, not for it. 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

And if you think that if Roose had beaten her a few times, then the wife and her family should have hated Roose, then no, it's not how it works.

It kind of is. Most families will hate violent inlaws, that is exactly how it works. 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

First of all, how exactly the fact that not everyone married Walder when he was old somehow makes it any better?

You claimed all his wives married an old man, I was simply pointing out they didn't. 

 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

 

Do you just find any arguments for Robert to look as bad as possible or what?

lol no. Robert is the greatest military commander we have seen alive in the series, he was shown to be an incredibly generous brother and a great friend to Jon and Ned. He was incredibly gregarious and his popularity as king was well earned. But he was an awful husband and father. 

Robert, like many characters was flawed. Roberts flaws, for example, are incredibly less severe than Tywin who has ordered the death of infants and the rape of a teenage peasant. The flaws of Robert and Tywin does not stop me appreciating the good aspects of these men given that they are fictional and exist in a world that shares little in common with our own. 

 

I care little about making fictional characters look good or bad, I'm sorry if that is what you think I'm doing, but from the source material he is a shitty husband and father, something that is often overlooked for two reasons, Ned loved him and Cersei is a (deserved) figure of hate among the fandom. 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

And flat out assuming that those women would be fine with sleeping with him just because their parents basically sold them to him? You are really scratching the barrel here.

Actually they would be paying Walder a dowry, it was his hand in marriage that was being bought.

You are the one coming up with baseless accusations, bit rich for you to be claiming others are scratching the barrel. 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

This is called being a father, not a husband. Of course women would like their husbands to be good fathers but father =/ husband.

Which is what I originally said. At no point did I claim one was the other but an important quality for women picking a husband, as would not wanting a man who would rape his wife when he wanted sex or beat her for being mouthy. 

 

Quote

We weren't shown their relationship with their wives so neither you or me can in fact judge whether Robert was worse than them or not.

We can say that with all available evidence he was. More evidence may come to light later and if so I will happily write about it but as it stands now he is the worst husband out of the men mentioned. 

 

Quote

 

But wile I simply extrapolate from their characters,

lol no, you don't. You let your own personal bias make your decision for you and are not even self aware enough to realize it. 

 

[Dofs]

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

What needed editing?  Your post was suggesting that 6'6 Robert should get a pass for only beating his wife twice. You might want to reread your post and edit it if that was not your intention. 

I only gave him the pass on the first time, not on the second time. Because as I've already said, for the first time he should have let Ilyn Payne 'hit' her.

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, do you?  I don't recall his duties including beating mouthy wives. 

Exactly, he has another duty and it would be extremely obvious to everyone that this is what I was implying. You know, by saying that the royal executioner should have (in brackets) 'hit' her.

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, you made a point and I responded to it.  Out of the three he was the worst husband, most people would share my opinion that husbands (or wives) don't get a pass on the first few times they beat their partner.

No, you argued as if I didn't consider that Robert is bad husband, even though I clearly indicated at the end of the post that he is. Meaning you didn't get to the end of the post before writing your reply. 

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Based on what? 

Same here, I explain what I base my opinion on at the end of my post and you clearly wrote this before reading it.

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Going by that logic every spouse in the series is an abusive partner.  

Or no one is. I guess. Except for the only bad husband in Westeros, Robert, that is. 

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It kind of is. Most families will hate violent inlaws, that is exactly how it works. 

Only in your bubble where you live. Not where I live.

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You claimed all his wives married an old man, I was simply pointing out they didn't. 

I did not claim it. I meant the later ones because I assumed it would be obvious for you that I wouldn't believe that Walder was old forever. But considering you even missed what I meant with Ilyn Payne, I guess I should have been more specific.

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol no. Robert is the greatest military commander we have seen alive in the series, he was shown to be an incredibly generous brother and a great friend to Jon and Ned. He was incredibly gregarious and his popularity as king was well earned. But he was an awful husband and father. 

Robert, like many characters was flawed. Roberts flaws, for example, are incredibly less severe than Tywin who has ordered the death of infants and the rape of a teenage peasant. The flaws of Robert and Tywin does not stop me appreciating the good aspects of these men given that they are fictional and exist in a world that shares little in common with our own. 

 

I care little about making fictional characters look good or bad, I'm sorry if that is what you think I'm doing, but from the source material he is a shitty husband and father, something that is often overlooked for two reasons, Ned loved him and Cersei is a (deserved) figure of hate among the fandom. 

I don't think we disagree here that Robert was a bad husband.

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Actually they would be paying Walder a dowry, it was his hand in marriage that was being bought.

So you decide to go into semantics here? Seriously? Why are you so desperately try to claim that those wives were fine with marrying Walder?

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which is what I originally said. At no point did I claim one was the other but an important quality for women picking a husband, as would not wanting a man who would rape his wife when he wanted sex or beat her for being mouthy. 

No, you did exactly claim that it refers to other and I am saying that no, it doesn't. Imagine if a woman is completely fine her husband treating her children badly. And also imagine that that woman is treating by her husband really well. Is he still a shitty husband or is he just a shitty father?

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We can say that with all available evidence he was. More evidence may come to light later and if so I will happily write about it but as it stands now he is the worst husband out of the men mentioned. 

Well, you can believe in whatever you want really, this is not a factual argument anyway.

 

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol no, you don't. You let your own personal bias make your decision for you and are not even self aware enough to realize it. 

The irony.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

32 minutes ago, Dofs said:

he should have let Ilyn Payne 'hit' her.

Is it really the royal executioner's job to "discipline" the royal family on the king's orders? We know that Joff and Tommen have a whipping boy, Pate. So when Cersei decides that Joff or Tommen are being naughty the whipping boy comes in and takes a flogging in place of Joff or Tommen while they watch. I'm not even sure if Ilyn Payne is the one who inflicts the flogging on said whipping boy. The one time we see Pate get a whipping Cersei orders Tommen to do it himself, though I'm not sure if that is the norm or not.

Ilyn Payne is also a Lannister man so I doubt Robert would want him to be the one to flog Cersei, he'd be better off asking Stannis or any other Baratheon man. 

 

 

[Dofs]

4 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Is it really the royal executioner's job to "discipline" the royal family on the king's orders? We know that Joff and Tommen have a whipping boy, Pate. So when Cersei decides that Joff or Tommen are being naughty the whipping boy comes in and takes a flogging in place of Joff or Tommen while they watch. I'm not even sure if Ilyn Payne is the one who inflicts the flogging on said whipping boy. The one time we see Pate get a whipping Cersei orders Tommen to do it himself, though I'm not sure if that is the norm or not.

Ilyn Payne is also a Lannister man so I doubt Robert would want him to be the one to flog Cersei, he'd be better off asking Stannis or any other Baratheon man. 

 

 

Omg, I was simply referring to the severity of what Cersei did that made Robert hit her. That she deserved execution for that. 

[Sea Dragon]

lol. There is no tender side to these men. They are villains and I think some readers here are taking George too literally when he says that he doesn't write simple black and white characters. Some of these men are funny but they don't have chapters of their own I can guess because George never planned for them to be anything dimensional. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

44 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Omg, I was simply referring to the severity of what Cersei did that made Robert hit her. That she deserved execution for that. 

Really? Off with her head just like that? Execute his queen, mother of his children and daughter of one of his most powerful lords without so much as a trial? For what was not even a clear threat about a girl he had not even acknowledged as his bastard? All for Cersei saying the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.  I don't see that going over well with Tywin or any other lords of Westeros. 

[Bernie Mac]

26 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Omg, I was simply referring to the severity of what Cersei did that made Robert hit her. That she deserved execution for that. 

She was being mouthy to her husband, it is not only bizarre that you don't have a problem with Robert beating her for it but you think he should have others beat her for him. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

H

[Dofs]

9 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Really? Off with her head just like that? Execute his queen, mother of his children and daughter of one of his most powerful lords without so much as a trail? For what was not even a clear threat about a girl he had not even acknowledged as his bastard? All for Cersei saying the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.  I don't see that going over well with Tywin or any other lords of Westeros. 

Hmm, I've checked the quote and it seems to me I confused something. I was under impression he hit her for something else. Then yeah, I retract my previous statement about the first hit.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

I only gave him the pass on the first time,

lol much better. Husbands are entitled to one free beating of their wife. 

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not on the second time. Because as I've already said, for the first time he should have let Ilyn Payne 'hit' her.

Dude, that is really not better at all. Now you might be okay with wives getting beat up by their husbands or their guards but the majority of wives would not be on board with that, that is why he's an awful husband (and father). 

 

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Exactly, he has another duty

Nowhere in the book is it claimed that the King's Justice's duties involve beating the king's wife when he does not like what she says. You have invented that, don't try to pass this shit off as canon. 

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and it would be extremely obvious to everyone that this is what I was implying. You know, by saying that the royal executioner should have (in brackets) 'hit' her.

Where are your sources for this? 

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No, you argued as if I didn't consider that Robert is bad husband,

Mate don't try to tell others what they said, I have been very clear with you, Robert, from what we have read, is a worse husband than the men OP mentioned. I have been quite clear with you on this.,. 

 

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Or no one is. I guess. Except for the only bad husband in Westeros, Robert, that is. 

Don't be petulant, no one has claimed Robert is the only bad husband, I've actually not even argued that the other three were good husbands but out of the four mentioned Robert has been the worst from what we have seen. 

I didn't bring Robert up in this conversation. 

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Only in your bubble where you live. Not where I live.

Bullshit, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters of people married to partners who physically abuse them, more often than not,  tend to dislike them. 

I urge you to read back on what you have said as you are going to some odd extremes to justify a man built like a tank being allowed to beat his wife.  I have a feeling, more of a hope, that you don't really believe this shit and are just saying this shit to defend Robert. 

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I did not claim it. I meant the later ones because I assumed it would be obvious for you that I wouldn't believe that Walder was old forever.

Don't get pissy with me for the mistakes you made in your points. 

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But considering you even missed what I meant with Ilyn Payne, I guess I should have been more specific.

I didn't miss what you said with Payne, you were more than clear. You have repeatedly advocated that Robert should have been able to have men in his employee beat his wife for being mouthy. 

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I don't think we disagree here that Robert was a bad husband.

Well we do given you have tried to defend every point and have declared that two men, who have not been shown to beat or rape their wives, while being, certainly in Walder's case, better fathers, are somehow worse husbands than Robert. 

 

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So you decide to go into semantics here?

It is not semantics, you made a claim that Walder bought those wives, not only was it not true but actually the opposite is true, their families would have paid for the marriage. 

 

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Why are you so desperately try to claim that those wives were fine with marrying Walder?

Because there is zero evidence that they were forced into it.  Obviously I doubt Walder was their ideal choice but there is a huge difference between accepting a marriage and being forced into it. 

Women in our own society frequently marry much older, marriage is not just about sex, love and companionship but often security and for some women in Westerosi status driven society they may not have been able to have  found better matches

By all means provide evidence that these women were forced into marrying Walder, but we both know there is none. Desperately speculating about others to try and make Robert's rape and beating of his wife more understandable is not a good look.  

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No, you did exactly claim that it refers to other and I am saying that no, it doesn't. Imagine if a woman is completely fine her husband treating her children badly. And also imagine that that woman is treating by her husband really well. Is he still a shitty husband or is he just a shitty father?

Read the whole thread. I was more clear, many women list being a good father when picking a husband, it is an important quality to have. Again, don't take my word for it, ask some of the women in your life.