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wendelsnatch

Was the Long Night Other invasion mostly isolated to the North

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I am not finding much information that leads me to believe that the Long Night in so much as the invasion of the Others extended past the North.  Sure there was a prolonged winter with global implications.  There are tales of the Rhoyne freezing unusually far south in Essos, the winter being a generation long, and possibly prolonged periods of dark.  What I am not finding is any Southern legends about invasion by the others.  In TWOIAF, discussion about the Others is predominantly in the section on the North.  In the books, its the North who "remembers".  To me it seems likely that the North remembers due to the conclusion that they were the only ones dealing with the Others, while the rest of the world was dealing just with the cold.  Sure there are other legends from Essos about a great evil, or a time of darkness that was ended by a great hero, but these stories are extremely vague.  These stories from Essos don't allude to an army of the dead lead by white magical men, and seem more likely based on the weather event in a similar manner to most cultures having a "flood story" as a real world analogy.  The only piece of evidence that in any way indicates that the Other's invasion may have extended further south is that Southern Kingdoms send men to the Wall to serve in the Nights Watch. 

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If you believe that Azor Ahai = the Last Hero (a more or less popular theory), then it would seem that the Other invasion during the Long Night would have been a huge thing, since according to the World Book there are versions of Azor Ahai spread in all the known world (even in places as far as Yi Ti).

Another more or less common theory states that the Daynes are related to Azor Ahai/Last Hero, with the sword Dawn being synonymous of Lightbringer. If there anything to it, there's a strong possibility that the Other's invasion reached as south as the mountains of Dorne.

 

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13 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

If you believe that Azor Ahai = the Last Hero (a more or less popular theory), then it would seem that the Other invasion during the Long Night would have been a huge thing, since according to the World Book there are versions of Azor Ahai spread in all the known world (even in places as far as Yi Ti).

Another more or less common theory states that the Daynes are related to Azor Ahai/Last Hero, with the sword Dawn being synonymous of Lightbringer. If there anything to it, there's a strong possibility that the Other's invasion reached as south as the mountains of Dorne.

 

 

18 hours ago, wendelsnatch said:

I am not finding much information that leads me to believe that the Long Night in so much as the invasion of the Others extended past the North.  Sure there was a prolonged winter with global implications.  There are tales of the Rhoyne freezing unusually far south in Essos, the winter being a generation long, and possibly prolonged periods of dark.  What I am not finding is any Southern legends about invasion by the others.  In TWOIAF, discussion about the Others is predominantly in the section on the North.  In the books, its the North who "remembers".  To me it seems likely that the North remembers due to the conclusion that they were the only ones dealing with the Others, while the rest of the world was dealing just with the cold.  Sure there are other legends from Essos about a great evil, or a time of darkness that was ended by a great hero, but these stories are extremely vague.  These stories from Essos don't allude to an army of the dead lead by white magical men, and seem more likely based on the weather event in a similar manner to most cultures having a "flood story" as a real world analogy.  The only piece of evidence that in any way indicates that the Other's invasion may have extended further south is that Southern Kingdoms send men to the Wall to serve in the Nights Watch. 

There are so many theories about it, but its true there is not much evidence to find in the south. I think Winterfell got his name, because it was the place the whitewalkers were defeated. Doesnt mean that in other places in essos they went maybe more south or east. We dont even know if there was battle or just a pact.  Moat callin is stated to be a stronghold to defence from invasions from the south (not from the north) for ten thousand of years, so also in time of the long night. So i guess the walkers went never close to moat callin. Otherwis it would also protect the south from the walkers. If the walkers went more south than moat callin would have a big role in that battle.

Edited by Seaserpent

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51 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

If you believe that Azor Ahai = the Last Hero (a more or less popular theory), then it would seem that the Other invasion during the Long Night would have been a huge thing, since according to the World Book there are versions of Azor Ahai spread in all the known world (even in places as far as Yi Ti).

Another more or less common theory states that the Daynes are related to Azor Ahai/Last Hero, with the sword Dawn being synonymous of Lightbringer. If there anything to it, there's a strong possibility that the Other's invasion reached as south as the mountains of Dorne.

 

That the thing, these legends from other areas; Hyrkoon from Yi Ti, Azor Ahai in legend from Asshai, an un-named hero that unified the factions of the Rhoyne to bring back the day with song, all deal with a hero that fights off the dark (or cold or winter).  These legends are all vague.  The deal with dark vs light, summer and winter, or ambiguous "demons" which could be an analogy simply for darkness.  I will grant that the ambiguity could be caused by the Westeros centric view and that the Others were a more widespread phenomenon, but something as blatant as an army of the dead should have transitioned well from one culture to another easily.  There should be legends of the dead fighting the living from Asshai, from Yi Ti, From Old Ghis and Quarth.  The dead rising and fighting the living should be as easily recognizable as the prolonged cold and dark, but that does not seem to be the case.  Why do we only seem to have the universal legends of one but not the other?  The conclusion I am drawn to is that the Others were isolated to Westeros, and more specifically the North.

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On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 10:45 PM, wendelsnatch said:

I am not finding much information that leads me to believe that the Long Night in so much as the invasion of the Others extended past the North.  Sure there was a prolonged winter with global implications.  There are tales of the Rhoyne freezing unusually far south in Essos, the winter being a generation long, and possibly prolonged periods of dark.  What I am not finding is any Southern legends about invasion by the others.  In TWOIAF, discussion about the Others is predominantly in the section on the North.  In the books, its the North who "remembers".  To me it seems likely that the North remembers due to the conclusion that they were the only ones dealing with the Others, while the rest of the world was dealing just with the cold.  Sure there are other legends from Essos about a great evil, or a time of darkness that was ended by a great hero, but these stories are extremely vague.  These stories from Essos don't allude to an army of the dead lead by white magical men, and seem more likely based on the weather event in a similar manner to most cultures having a "flood story" as a real world analogy.  The only piece of evidence that in any way indicates that the Other's invasion may have extended further south is that Southern Kingdoms send men to the Wall to serve in the Nights Watch. 

Lot's of odd things about long nights and long winters.

Jeor Mormont tells Tyrion that winter is coming and that the days are getting shorter, which would imply that this is not just a weather event but an alteration of the orbital path of the planet. And yet nowhere but Westeros do we hear people talking about long summers and long winters.

Likewise, the northmen talk about 100-foot snows etc., and yet people like Davos and the other southron lords cannot imagine such a thing. Even the Freys are having a tough time dealing with it. So obviously there are gradations in the severity of the long winter based on latitude. And yet, if this were so, than this recent long summer would have been a difficult time for a place like Dorne, no? As in most temperate/tropical desert regions, winter is the time for rains when flowers bloom and the land rejuvenates for a while.

There is also the fact that we are apparently moving from a long summer to a long winter at a pretty quick pace. Fall lasted, what, barely a year? And while we saw a big storm come from the north and dump a lot of rain on the riverlands, plus some pretty bad squalls out to sea, there were apparently no big storms in the Stormlands, which are named so for the storms they are supposed to get in the fall. I would think that if such a transfer of global energy is happening this quickly, then the region known for hurricanes sweeping in from the warm Summer Sea would get at least one doozy, and that would most certainly have impacted King's Landing where we've had multiple POVs.

But we do have equivalent stories for the Long Night in Essos and farther east. The Rhoynar talk about the river freezing way to the south, while Yi-Ti has their Maiden-Made-of-Light turning her back on the world. And as mentioned above there is the Azor Ahai/PtwP stories.

So there are lots of peculiarities here, and I doubt we will get full answers to all of them by story's end.

 

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33 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:
Spoiler

 

Lot's of odd things about long nights and long winters.

Jeor Mormont tells Tyrion that winter is coming and that the days are getting shorter, which would imply that this is not just a weather event but an alteration of the orbital path of the planet. And yet nowhere but Westeros do we hear people talking about long summers and long winters.

Likewise, the northmen talk about 100-foot snows etc., and yet people like Davos and the other southron lords cannot imagine such a thing. Even the Freys are having a tough time dealing with it. So obviously there are gradations in the severity of the long winter based on latitude. And yet, if this were so, than this recent long summer would have been a difficult time for a place like Dorne, no? As in most temperate/tropical desert regions, winter is the time for rains when flowers bloom and the land rejuvenates for a while.

There is also the fact that we are apparently moving from a long summer to a long winter at a pretty quick pace. Fall lasted, what, barely a year? And while we saw a big storm come from the north and dump a lot of rain on the riverlands, plus some pretty bad squalls out to sea, there were apparently no big storms in the Stormlands, which are named so for the storms they are supposed to get in the fall. I would think that if such a transfer of global energy is happening this quickly, then the region known for hurricanes sweeping in from the warm Summer Sea would get at least one doozy, and that would most certainly have impacted King's Landing where we've had multiple POVs.

But we do have equivalent stories for the Long Night in Essos and farther east. The Rhoynar talk about the river freezing way to the south, while Yi-Ti has their Maiden-Made-of-Light turning her back on the world. And as mentioned above there is the Azor Ahai/PtwP stories.

So there are lots of peculiarities here, and I doubt we will get full answers to all of them by story's end.

 

 

Well, it doesn't have to be the orbital path, although that would have more significant impact on the planet as a whole.  The days get longer or shorter based on the axial tilt of the planet in relation to the sun, not the radii of the orbit.  So whatever is causing the Winter / Summer of Planetos, it seems to be adjusting the planetary tilt.  There's been some good posts about this elsewhere on the forum.

As far as I can tell, Essos and Westeros are both in the Northern hemisphere.  So they should both experience winters, but Essos isn't as far north so it won't get it as bad.  And they don't have a direct connection to the lands of always winter, so they probably not get directly invaded by the Others.  They might see a general raising of wights though, if the wall is broken and thats really what keeps the Others from long distance necromancy.

Edited by argonak

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I agree with your observation @wendelsnatch .  The Long Night affected the planet. The Others only arose in Westeros.  My theory is that the creation of the Others involved tapping into magic at the Heart of Winter, magic also involved in keeping the planet revolving consistently.  So the creation of the Others in Westeros brought the first Long Night, and that Long Night affected the world.

I have long wondered just how far south in Westeros the Others travelled.  If winter lasted a generation, you'd think they would have made it down through Dorne because even Dorne would be iced over.  I Don't know if we'll get satisfactory explanations for timelines, though, as George himself wrestles with times and distances, likely in ways now he never did when he first started writing the series.

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On 10/1/2018 at 6:42 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

I agree with your observation @wendelsnatch .  The Long Night affected the planet. The Others only arose in Westeros.  My theory is that the creation of the Others involved tapping into magic at the Heart of Winter, magic also involved in keeping the planet revolving consistently.  So the creation of the Others in Westeros brought the first Long Night, and that Long Night affected the world.

I have long wondered just how far south in Westeros the Others travelled.  If winter lasted a generation, you'd think they would have made it down through Dorne because even Dorne would be iced over.  I Don't know if we'll get satisfactory explanations for timelines, though, as George himself wrestles with times and distances, likely in ways now he never did when he first started writing the series.

I wonder how far South as well.  I am inclined to think that the Others did not travel further south than Moat Cailin, otherwise the South would remember more like the North.  Pure conjecture, but I think the South assisted the North during the Long Night with food and troops due to proof of the Others existence provided from the North.  Between the troops who went North, plus the recent memory of the Others, the tradition of membership to the Nights Watch from all kingdoms was borne.  It continues currently more from tradition and as a way to get rid of dregs of society.

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3 minutes ago, wendelsnatch said:

I wonder how far South as well.  I am inclined to think that the Others did not travel further south than Moat Cailin, otherwise the South would remember more like the North.  Pure conjecture, but I think the South assisted the North during the Long Night with food and troops due to proof of the Others existence provided from the North.  Between the troops who went North, plus the recent memory of the Others, the tradition of membership to the Nights Watch from all kingdoms was borne.  It continues currently more from tradition and as a way to get rid of dregs of society.

That seems a likely scenario.  I sometimes wonder if pre-Wall, the First Men ruled over vast reaches in the Far North as well, so many of the battles took place there and that's why they didn't reach southern areas sooner.  The Wall is an arbitrary division that keeps cold magic out; one wonders if the entire North was a bit warmer back then.

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9 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

That seems a likely scenario.  I sometimes wonder if pre-Wall, the First Men ruled over vast reaches in the Far North as well, so many of the battles took place there and that's why they didn't reach southern areas sooner.  The Wall is an arbitrary division that keeps cold magic out; one wonders if the entire North was a bit warmer back then.

I wouldn't say an arbitrary division.  It is the narrowest point north of the Neck and relatively flat.  Arguably, a wall could have been built between the Antler River and one of the Milkwater tributaries that would have included much of the Haunted Forrest into the North and the point Hardhome sits on.  It would depend on to what degree a river could hold off a Other and Wight invasion.  On the one hand there is an aversion to water for the Others, on the other the river could freeze.  Anyways, I think its likely that there were many petty Kingdoms north of the present day Wall that decided to stay North after the Wall went up and fell into "Dark Ages" where they regressed or stagnated technologically.  The Thenns may be the closest we have to an actual First Men society.

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57 minutes ago, wendelsnatch said:

I wouldn't say an arbitrary division.  It is the narrowest point north of the Neck and relatively flat.  Arguably, a wall could have been built between the Antler River and one of the Milkwater tributaries that would have included much of the Haunted Forrest into the North and the point Hardhome sits on.  It would depend on to what degree a river could hold off a Other and Wight invasion.  On the one hand there is an aversion to water for the Others, on the other the river could freeze.  Anyways, I think its likely that there were many petty Kingdoms north of the present day Wall that decided to stay North after the Wall went up and fell into "Dark Ages" where they regressed or stagnated technologically.  The Thenns may be the closest we have to an actual First Men society.

Sorry, just meant it isn't a river or mountain range but something chosen.  Like your idea about the petty kingdoms and the Thenns! 

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