FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

[AlaskanSandman]

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I still say Alysanne herself is just the granddaughter of some mummer.

I suspect this Mummer or "Bard", of being of the North.

"Hey bro, i've got three arrows, let me go put them through three dragons"

"Have you seen his sister? I've got a better plan of where to put your arrow"

[Curled Finger]

I knew you would all be on this when I got home.   Just read through the comments and share many of your "ah" moments.   I read the short passage twice today and though a great deal eludes me without a proper reading and the support of this fine community, there were a few things that jumped out at me.  

Jaehaerys really wasn't there at all.   I always thought he was hanging out at Winterfell when Alysanne went to see The Wall.  

Alysanne stopped over at last Hearth before reaching The Wall.   When was the First Night abolished?   Seems a strange place to er hang out since Roose says the Umbers still practice.

Silverwing didn't want to fly over The Wall.  I missed the larger meaning of over The Wall, being instantly reminded of Melisandre's "hinge of the world" deal with simply The Wall, not beyond.   Then that inhospitable discourtesy of not allowing Silverwing to reside within the walls of Winterfell?   Really?  Hrm.  

Jonquil.  Finally the name outside songs and tales.   Interesting that. 

A Wildling foster?  When did that start?  Surely this is a first?   

All this stuff I thought was credited to the team of J + A was really just A.  From this visit to the North came the closing of the Nightfort and a new castle Alysanne sold her own jewels to build.   They were not the tag team I believed.   She was quite a mover and shaker entirely on her own.   

All in all a really nice little appetizer.  I give up.   Looks like I will shell out for Fire and Blood.   

[Gendarrion]

Now i wonder how will the dragon's fare against the others, this makes me believe they might not be as useful to them as we think.

[Ckram]

Why did Alysanne chose to visit Castle Black of all 19 castles? Why didn't she headed straight to Nightfort? By that time there's no kingsroad and Nightfort was NW headquarters.

[AlaskanSandman]

17 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Why did Alysanne chose to visit Castle Black of all 19 castles? Why didn't she headed straight to Nightfort? By that time there's no kingsroad and Nightfort was NW headquarters.

Was it? The Night Fort and Snow Gate went to war 600 years ago and eventually teamed up to kill the L.C.

Imagine if he was at the Night Fort, he would have ended it before it begun.

Bael also skipped down the K.R. before the Targaryens. Meaning the K.R. is a Northern thing that was already there, even if not as nice. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

10 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

 

Is it odd that wildling girls found by rangers are given to foster?

Mande Rayder was raised by the men of the Night's Watch, but that would not have been possible for a young girl. So if the NW wanted to ensure the young child's survival by taking her south of the Wall but with themselves unable to take her in as they would later do with Mance, they had to find someone else willing to raise her.

[Ckram]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Was it?

Yeah, you're right. "Greatest and oldest", not headquarters. Another misconception of mine. Thanks anyway.

Ok, Castle Black it is.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Bael also skipped down the K.R. before the Targaryens. Meaning the K.R. is a Northern thing that was already there, even if not as nice. 

Here you are taking Ygritte's story as accurate. We shouldn't. The "Bael down the kingsroad" thing should even demonstrate how quite inaccurate it is, not the opposite.

However I think if had you just said "I think the road from Winterfell to Castle Black predates the Conquest" I'd be "ok". The road from North's main seat (where judgements were supposedly held) to the Wall must be very old.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Ckram said:

Yeah, you're right. "Greatest and oldest", not headquarters. Another misconception of mine. Thanks anyway.

Ok, Castle Black it is.

Here you are taking Ygritte's story as accurate. We shouldn't. The "Bael down the kingsroad" thing should even demonstrate how quite inaccurate it is, not the opposite.

However I think if had you just said "I think the road from Winterfell to Castle Black predates the Conquest" I'd be "ok". The road from North's main seat (where judgements were supposedly held) to the Wall must be very old.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"Wildlings have invaded the realm before." Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. "Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather's grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard."

"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

"Aye," said Ygritte. "Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o' free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them."

 

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.

The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, 



So aside from Jon and Qorhin discussing it, we have the Maesters confirming the order for us, while providing a date for the Horned Lord.

 

We know Mance is in 300Ac  and we know that Raymund Red Beard was in 226Ac.

 

So thus we can determine the list as such.

 

Mance Rayder                   - 300Ac

 

Raymund Red Beard         - 226 Ac

 

Bael the Bard                     - Some time after Andals but before Targaryens? 13-1400BC or 500-400Bc?

 

And Long before them.

 

The Horned Lord               - 1700Bc or 700 Bc (only centuries before Bael)

 

Gendle and Gorne           - 2700Bc

 

And In Ancient Days.

 

Joramun                            - Unknown.

 

Or Bael did exist (Has a Valyrian name), and is around the time of Hardhome being burned down, and Valyria taking dragonstone. 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Even before the coming of the Andals, the Wolf's Den had been raised by King Jon Stark, built to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders and slavers from across the narrow sea (some scholars suggest these were early Andal incursions, whilst others argue they were the forebears of the men of Ib, or even slavers out of Valyria and Volantis).

 

And Valyria have been visiting for a while to feed their slave trade.

 

Ygritte wasn't wrong. She just got her vernacular wrong when saying Lord instead of King. 

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

Centuries ago, House Bolton rose up against the King in the North, and Harlon Stark laid siege to the Dreadfort. It took him two years to starve them out.

Hmmm, wonder if Harlon was responding to the Bolton's flaying the Stark King before him?

 

 

 

Edit- Might be why i said earlier in the thread something about Alysanne hooking up with a Stark/Mormont

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Ckram said:

Yeah, you're right. "Greatest and oldest", not headquarters. Another misconception of mine. Thanks anyway.

Ok, Castle Black it is.

Here you are taking Ygritte's story as accurate. We shouldn't. The "Bael down the kingsroad" thing should even demonstrate how quite inaccurate it is, not the opposite.

However I think if had you just said "I think the road from Winterfell to Castle Black predates the Conquest" I'd be "ok". The road from North's main seat (where judgements were supposedly held) to the Wall must be very old.

Its interesting that Tormund and Ygritte are "kissed by fire".

Its also interesting that Tormund, Mance's good friend. Is sleeping with the daughter of Maege Mormont, (a House that pops up around the time of Hardhome) Alysane. Named for Alysanne?

Really interesting that Alysane's second kid was born in 298Ac when Mance paid a visit to Winterfell. 

I could go on about Qhorin and his odd interest in Jon, and getting him to Mance and such, but you already think im crazy with the K.R.   

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Alysanne stopped over at last Hearth before reaching The Wall.   When was the First Night abolished?   Seems a strange place to er hang out since Roose says the Umbers still practice.

The Last Hearth, Queen's Crown. I almost wanna bet that Lord Alaric's son is fostered at the Last Hearth

[AlaskanSandman]

14 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

 

Is it odd that wildling girls found by rangers are given to foster?

I keep trying to figure out how to take that given my feelings on the Wildlings and Valyrians

[Regular John Umber]

 While the tidbit about Silverwing not wanting to fly over the wall is interesting, it doesn't quite rule out flying around  the wall...

[chrisdaw]

The Silverwing and the wall thing is the punchline to this excerpt. For why he would want that info out there my first guess would be he wants to show there will be no Dany on dragon back rescue mission on the other side of the wall in the books.

[Big P]

Maybe the wall was meant to keep ice and fire separate.  An ancient pact perhaps.  An agreement sealed by magic.  It's interesting.  It might also mean ice cannot pass through.  That is, as long as the men of the NW remain true.  Does the barrier still work after the treason and trouble caused by Jon in the last book.?  I guess we shall find out when Winds comes out.   

[Bloodraven's Spider]

Incredible excerpt. Can’t wait FaB. Any new George is good George. The fact silverwing wouldn’t cross the wall is very interesting. It would truly change the direction of ASOIAF if Dany and her dragons can’t cross the wall. Can’t wait for the full story and winds (one can dream right?)

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, dhpike said:

There're two possible conditions I can think of regarding the Stark family tree:

1. Lord Ellard is the elder brother/cousin of Lord Benjen. Since Lord Alaric has two strong sons, it's possible that Ellard is the son of the first one while Benjen is the son of the second.

2. Lord Ellard is the younger son of Lord Alaric while Benjen is the son of Ellard. Suppose Ellard is only 10/11 in 58 AC, that will make him 20/21 in 68 AC and 53/54 in 101 AC, which is a perfect candidate to father Benjen.

We have to keep in mind the fact that two sons of Alaric may mean two continuous cadet branches of House Stark who both end up holding Winterfell at one point, but at this point we cannot make sense of how Ellard and Benjen fit in all of this, nor do we know if those birth years from the MUSH are actually canonical.

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The others were not that far south at that point.

We don't know that, do we?

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Alysanne stopped over at last Hearth before reaching The Wall.   When was the First Night abolished?   Seems a strange place to er hang out since Roose says the Umbers still practice.

One would assume it happened afterwards. Keep in mind that this is the first royal progress of Jaehaerys and Alysanne into the North. If the First Night was very prominently practiced in the North then Alysanne and Jaehaerys would have found out of that while they were there.

And one can be sure that after the First Night was abolished the Umbers and Boltons did not practice the First Night while the Targaryens were there - and perhaps not even while they were looking and still had dragons. They may even have been forced to do it clandestinely later on, assuming the Starks were upholding the king's laws. And it seems Roose is of the opinion that they did. He was afraid of Rickard Stark.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

A Wildling foster?  When did that start?  Surely this is a first?   

No reason to believe that. One could imagine it happened by means of a Manderly serving in the Watch arranging a young wildling captive to be fostered at White Harbor. Or a man from the family who took the girl in.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

All this stuff I thought was credited to the team of J + A was really just A.  From this visit to the North came the closing of the Nightfort and a new castle Alysanne sold her own jewels to build.   They were not the tag team I believed.   She was quite a mover and shaker entirely on her own.

Alysanne Targaryen was the greatest queen of Westeros. What did you expect? The way she appears here she may have been even a better monarch than Jaehaerys had she ruled the Seven Kingdoms in her own right rather than sharing in Jaehaerys' power as queen consort.

9 hours ago, Ckram said:

Why did Alysanne chose to visit Castle Black of all 19 castles? Why didn't she headed straight to Nightfort? By that time there's no kingsroad and Nightfort was NW headquarters.

The fact that Castle Black is no longer the seat of the Lord Commander at this point makes it even more interesting to find out when and why this was done.

2 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 While the tidbit about Silverwing not wanting to fly over the wall is interesting, it doesn't quite rule out flying around  the wall...

If it was just that, it would be less ominous than if it had something to do with the Others.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Really enjoyed the excerpt. Nice to get a reminder of the size of White Harbor.

Regarding Silverwing, it’s pretty obvious the spells in the Wall repelled her in some way. I see three primary possibilities.

1. The spells in the Wall break the Dragon’s bond with its rider just like it breaks the skinchanger’s bond with his animal, and the Others’ undead greenseer bond with their animated wights. This terrifies the dragon who veers away from the source of the threat.

This would also suggest that ancient greenseers could indeed disrupt the dragonbond, which explains the Valyrians avoidance of Westeros.

2. The spells in the Wall do not allow unnatural creatures to pass, and both the Others and dragons are unnatural creatures.

3. Something to do with Ice vs Fire magic, although I see this as least likely, given that the magic that underlies the Wall is not Ice magic so much as Blood magic.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

1. The spells in the Wall break the Dragon’s bond with its rider just like it breaks the skinchanger’s bond with his animal, and the Others’ undead greenseer bond with their animated wights. This terrifies the dragon who veers away from the source of the threat.

There is no indication that the Others' have an 'undead greenseer bond' with the wights - and if they did, the Wall does obviously not break it, or else the wights the Watch brought south of the Wall wouldn't have worked as well as they did. There is no indication that the Wall affected the magic in the wights in any way, shape, or form.

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This would also suggest that ancient greenseers could indeed disrupt the dragonbond, which explains the Valyrians avoidance of Westeros.

Skinchangers could try to control dragons, of course, but Alysanne doesn't control Silverwing in a way connected to that kind of magic. She just rides her. She doesn't feel her emotions or looks through her eyes.

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

2. The spells in the Wall do not allow unnatural creatures to pass, and both the Others and dragons are unnatural creatures.

Then it is odd that it allows people like Melisandre to pass through the Wall, no?

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

3. Something to do with Ice vs Fire magic, although I see this as least likely, given that the magic that underlies the Wall is not Ice magic so much as Blood magic.

How could you possibly know that? The fact that it is a Wall made of ice indicates that 'ice magic' may very well be a part of that, no? We have no indication how or what magic went into the Wall.

[Bael's Bastard]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As to George's video:

Who do expect to be 'mad' or 'bad' among the FaB Targaryens?

For the most part, I wouldn't expect a bunch of new "mad" or "bad" Targaryens that we don't already know about. But if he is gonna throw in another "mad" or "bad" apple or two, Jaehaerys I's children would seem to be a good place, since we seem to know so little about them and that second half of the first Targaryen century. 

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

For the most part, I wouldn't expect a bunch of new "mad" or "bad" Targaryens that we don't already know about. But if he is gonna throw in another "mad" or "bad" apple or two, Jaehaerys I's children would seem to be a good place, since we seem to know so little about them and that second half of the first Targaryen century. 

That is a good guess. And we certainly also have Aerea and Rhaella to deal with, and other shadowy figures like Baela and Rhaena (about whose personalities we know either nothing or only very little). Rhaena's later life with Androw Farman and any children that might come from that union are also completely unclear at this point.

Aside from Maegor and to a lesser degree Daemon/Aemond and Aegon II we don't really have any *bad* Targaryens in this era.