FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The family tree reads 'Targaryen Lineage from Aegon's Conquest to the Ascension of Aegon III'.

That implies it covers all marriages and births up until the end of 136 AC, considering that Aegon III was born late in 120 AC, meaning his sixteenth nameday was also late in 136 AC.

I agree that it is the case that the tree shows the family up until late 136 AC, but technically that is not what the title implies. Aegon ascended the throne in 131 AC, after all.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Well, this is just wrong.  I think it's more than fair to say Dany has the most vivid dragon dreams of anyone in the text (which, well, shouldn't be surprising) - and at least one of which was after the "other dragons" have hatched.  See here.

Dany has vivid and important dreams, yes, but she simply doesn't dream about her three literal dragons the way the Stark children dream about their direwolves. That is just a fact.

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That's always been really interesting to me - especially since the World Book came out.  Ice and fire we know.  Earth and water, said the boy in green.  This is how I think of the Children.  As earth gods.  What better way to describe them?  Or their magic?  What'd we see in the World Book?  The Rhoyner combating the Valyrians with some type of water magic.  So, really, we have four magics here in the oath:  earth, water, ice, and fire.  Not exactly the four elements, but I guess water could be wind -- or more preferably in my book ICE.  Anyway, Captain Planet isn't far behind.  Or, as I'd prefer, Milla Jovovich.

Ice and fire are pretty important because of the very title of this series. And Yandel tells us this is the world of ice and fire. They are important 'magical elements' - but there is no reason that earth and water or iron and bronze are of equal importance. They are not part of the title.

And one expects that the Children were/are masters of pretty much any school of magic, anyway, considering that they did - or supposedly did - during the ages.

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So, Silverwing didn't like the wall because of the wind.  I really don't care where the wind was coming from logistically, btw, so spare me.  Also, I think it's notable the Wall was weeping because it was summer.  Why is the Wall always emphasized as weeping when the sun is on it?  Seems it's always mentioned that way right?  As if it rejects any form of fire?  So, those are my weird thoughts on it.

And I don't care that you don't care. I already mentioned that there is an ambiguity there. We don't need it explicitly mentioned that dragons don't like ice or water. That is self-evident, considering their natures as creatures of fire. This whole thing could just be a natural thing for a dragon. The whole 'I don't want to fly farther north' thing not so much.

The Wall weeps when it is hot. Because it melts. There is no mystery about that. And Alysanne apparently came north in summer, so this is no surprise.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I agree that it is the case that the tree shows the family up until late 136 AC, but technically that is not what the title implies. Aegon ascended the throne in 131 AC, after all.

Technically this is correct. I'd have most likely used 'to the end of the minority of Aegon III', if I had drawn up that family tree. However, we don't know whether Aegon III ever sat the Iron Throne during the days of the Regency (it is possible that they allowed him to sit there on occasion, but I'm not sure Tommen ever sat there up to this point), and it is very much implied the boy was little more than a puppet with no voice at all in his own government. In that sense he most likely only ascended the Iron Throne in a proper sense (i.e. taking power in his own hands) in 136 AC.

[Frey family reunion]

On 9/29/2018 at 8:16 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

I would say that the clues are there. I made the mistake of thinking Bael based on the legend mentioning K.R. and Lord Starks, but Bael is not what tipped me to Alysanne. Queen's Crown and the fact that crowning is a birthing term is what tipped me.

I do like this.  In addition, the Queenscrown tower can also be considered a Mural Crown.  The Mural Crown was a Roman military decoration given to the first soldier who climbed the wall of a besieged city or fortress and planted his flag within.  

The Mural Crown was also the symbol of the Goddess Cybele.  Cybele was a goddess of mountains and fertility, adopted by the Romans.  The fact that the Queen's Crown is located within the midst of the lands of the Mountain Clans makes me suspect that if Cybele did become pregnant she may have left the child (or children if twins) behind with one of the Mountain Clans around the area of the Queen's Crown.

Finally the Queenscrown tower being located in the middle of a lake calls to mind Loch Levens Castle, a Castle positioned on an island in the middle of Loch Leven.  Legend has it that Mary, Queen of Scots miscarried twin children she had conceived with her second husband James Hepburn, the Earl of Bothwell while staying at Loch Levens Castle.

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The tower stood upon an island, its twin reflected on the still blue waters.

 

 

[DMC]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany has vivid and important dreams, yes, but she simply doesn't dream about her three literal dragons the way the Stark children dream about their direwolves. That is just a fact.

Um, agreed.  That wasn't what I was saying.  Point was you said Dany "has no dreams about [Drogon} or the other dragons after they hatched."  And that's directly contradicted by the text.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ice and fire are pretty important because of the very title of this series.

This is irrelevant.  Of course, ice and fire are paramount because they're in the title and because that's been the anticipated conflict since I was in middle school.  That doesn't preclude other things from being important as well, or else this board should shut down.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And Yandel tells us this is the world of ice and fire. They are important 'magical elements'

He does?  Please cite.  Not trying to be an ass, I'm very interested when Yandel says ice and fire are the important 'magical elements.'  Don't recall that.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And one expects that the Children were/are masters of pretty much any school of magic, anyway, considering that they did - or supposedly did - during the ages.

Hm, the only example of them possibly being proficient in "fire magic" would be Hardhome, right?  Other than that there's no real examples, just conjecture.  They know how to use dragonglass (and "dragon steel") but if they were "masters" of fire magic or ice magic, one should expect the First Men would be dead.  Even if they created the Others, which I do think is a very compelling notion, it's plain they are not masters of such ice magic.  The breaking of the Arm and the failed Neck attempt I suppose could suggest they are masters of water magic like the Rhoynar depending on interpretation.  But in both cases they're breaking earth, not using the water.

Overall, I'd say the important thing is from all sources we know the Children could not defeat the Others on their own.  Which indicates their magic was insufficient.  It follows that, no, I would not say they were/are pretty much masters of any school of magic.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And I don't care that you don't care.

Well I don't care that you don't care that I don't care!  

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Wall weeps when it is hot. Because it melts. There is no mystery about that. And Alysanne apparently came north in summer, so this is no surprise.

Ah, forgive me for suggesting there's some literary interpretation to the repeated language used in a novel.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This whole thing could just be a natural thing for a dragon. The whole 'I don't want to fly farther north' thing not so much.

 Based on it's placement in that excerpt I strongly disagree.  The author wanted us to wonder about Alysanne's concern.

[White Ravens]

10 hours ago, DMC said:

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Though it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap.

 

So, Silverwing didn't like the wall because of the wind.  I really don't care where the wind was coming from logistically, btw, so spare me.  Also, I think it's notable the Wall was weeping because it was summer.  Why is the Wall always emphasized as weeping when the sun is on it?  Seems it's always mentioned that way right?  As if it rejects any form of fire?  So, those are my weird thoughts on it.

I realize I'm probably splitting hairs but my take is that Silverwing didn't like the wind because of the wall.  The wall is imbued with powerful wards and magics, which the dragon doesn't like, so whenever the winds stir Silverwing smells or senses those magics and complains.  As for the weeping of the wall I think that GRRM is illustrating that the warmth of the sun striking the surface of the ice causes it to melt and glisten.  I think it sounds more like the wall is sweating but weeping is more poetic. 

Edit:  The Brothers of the Night's Watch use the term to describe weather - if they can see that the wall is weeping then they know that the temperature is not very low. 

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A Game of Thrones - Prologue

"And how did you find the Wall?"

"Weeping," Will said, frowning. He saw it clear enough, now that the lordling had pointed it out. "They couldn't have froze. Not if the Wall was weeping. It wasn't cold enough."

Royce nodded. "Bright lad. We've had a few light frosts this past week, and a quick flurry of snow now and then, but surely no cold fierce enough to kill eight grown men. Men clad in fur and leather, let me remind you, with shelter near at hand, and the means of making fire." The knight's smile was cocksure. "Will, lead us there. I would see these dead men for myself."

 

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

I realize I'm probably splitting hairs but my take is that Silverwing didn't like the wind because of the wall.  The wall is imbued with powerful wards and magics, which the dragon doesn't like, so whenever the winds stir Silverwing smells or senses those magics and complains.  As for the weeping of the wall I think that GRRM is illustrating that the warmth of the sun striking the surface of the ice causes it to melt and glisten.  I think it sounds more like the wall is sweating but weeping is more poetic. 

The poetry has more of a kick now we've learned of the Tears of Lys, the women's weapon, and the Sorrowful Men. So the dragon hates the Wall, and the Wall 'hates' the dragon (and the sun as well, for sure).

It's seems a strange thing to build a magical ice object to block and nullify more ice magic. Maybe the Wall is not so much a barrier as a reservoir, or a sponge, mopping up the ice magic before it can flow south.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I realize I'm probably splitting hairs but my take is that Silverwing didn't like the wind because of the wall.  The wall is imbued with powerful wards and magics, which the dragon doesn't like, so whenever the winds stir Silverwing smells or senses those magics and complains.

So, wait, are you saying the winds that are bothering SW are emanating from the wall? Or at least it's imbuing the wind with these magics?  Interesting.

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

It's seems a strange thing to build a magical ice object to block and nullify more ice magic. Maybe the Wall is not so much a barrier as a reservoir, or a sponge, mopping up the ice magic before it can flow south.

Cool!

[White Ravens]

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

So, wait, are you saying the winds that are bothering SW are emanating from the wall? Or at least it's imbuing the wind with these magics?  Interesting.

 

Imbuing.

[RumHam]

29 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

It's seems a strange thing to build a magical ice object to block and nullify more ice magic. Maybe the Wall is not so much a barrier as a reservoir, or a sponge, mopping up the ice magic before it can flow south.

Just thinking out loud here, but It did always seem strange that the giant ice wall was built by the humans and not the ice monsters. I'm a firm believer that Dany's dragons are the modern Lightbringer. Maybe the original Lightbringer was actually a dragon also and the Wall was built by the others to keep dragons away from the heart of winter?

[Lady Barbrey]

25 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Just thinking out loud here, but It did always seem strange that the giant ice wall was built by the humans and not the ice monsters. I'm a firm believer that Dany's dragons are the modern Lightbringer. Maybe the original Lightbringer was actually a dragon also and the Wall was built by the others to keep dragons away from the heart of winter?

A few of us were going down the Wall-keeps-out-dragons route as well as keeps out wights, but Ran said that Silverwing sensed the magic beyond the Wall that the Wall was containing or keeping out of the South, and that's why the dragon shied away.  So not the Wall itself, but the Land of Always Winter.  Ran is the only authority on these boards so I'll accept that, and thank him for saving me from going the wrong direction with speculation.

But this means we didn't learn much from this snippet except that dragons can sense ice magic, the Wall is keeping ice magic out, and ice magic seems to be imbuing the whole territory North of the Wall.

[Lord Varys]

@Ran is also just speculating there. You can believe or think what you want.

But the really important thing here is the flight thing, not the 'the ice is unpleasant' thing. We already know that dragons are not of much use in rainy weather (both during the Last Storm and the Battle of the Great Fork) so the idea that Silverwing should feel comfortable around a wall of ice in an overall cold environment is not very likely - regardless whether there is magic in the Wall or not.

And if the Wall was blocking the Silverwing's flight, then why can Melisandre, wights, skinchangers (and their animals) pass through the Wall? They are magical too, and presumably 'less magical' than dragons. And if there is a magical 'barrier' even above the Wall, then why was the Wall raised so high? What was the point of that?

And if there was a magical barrier above the Wall, why not also left and right of the Wall, forming a magical around the entire globe?

They wouldn't need a Night's Watch if any of that were true.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The Wall doesn't block magic. (it might act as a filter.) The Wall blocks monsters.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

@Ran is also just speculating there. You can believe or think what you want.

But the really important thing here is the flight thing, not the 'the ice is unpleasant' thing. We already know that dragons are not of much use in rainy weather (both during the Last Storm and the Battle of the Great Fork) so the idea that Silverwing should feel comfortable around a wall of ice in an overall cold environment is not very likely - regardless whether there is magic in the Wall or not.

And if the Wall was blocking the Silverwing's flight, then why can Melisandre, wights, skinchangers (and their animals) pass through the Wall? They are magical too, and presumably 'less magical' than dragons. And if there is a magical 'barrier' even above the Wall, then why was the Wall raised so high? What was the point of that?

And if there was a magical barrier above the Wall, why not also left and right of the Wall, forming a magical around the entire globe?

They wouldn't need a Night's Watch if any of that were true.

A couple of points.

1. We know wards against wights exist. There is one protecting the Children’s cave. It seems highly logical then, that the greatest magical construct in the known world, built with the help of the Children to keep the Others out, will be able to do the same and more.

So it is highly likely that the Wall is indeed a magical barrier against Other magic and against wights. 

2. There is no evidence that this magical barrier stops at the Shadow Tower and Eastwatch. In fact, if it does not extend far into the sea, the Others and wights could just cross the pack ice that exists in the depths of a Long Night type Winter, thus completely nullifying the 700 foot Wall’s entire purpose for existing. That would seem rather stupid.

3. I don’t know that many people ever seriously considered the idea that defeating the Others would involve someone riding a Dragon into the Heart Of Winter Jeff Goldblum style in Independence Day. Bran doing something spiritual from his comfy seat in Winterfell or from the mysterious Isle of Faces seems a far more likely option, given what the Three Eyed Crow showed him way back in Book 1. With the dragons and warrior types fighting the physical battles all over Westeros to hold back the Others’ advance long enough for him to do whatever he is supposed to do.

[The Grey Wolf]

If there was a Farman-Lannister marriage during Jaehaerys I's reign the latter might have Targaryen blood indirectly. 

[Lady Barbrey]

41 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A couple of points.

1. We know wards against wights exist. There is one protecting the Children’s cave. It seems highly logical then, that the greatest magical construct in the known world, built with the help of the Children to keep the Others out, will be able to do the same and more.

So it is highly likely that the Wall is indeed a magical barrier against Other magic and against wights. 

2. There is no evidence that this magical barrier stops at the Shadow Tower and Eastwatch. In fact, if it does not extend far into the sea, the Others and wights could just cross the pack ice that exists in the depths of a Long Night type Winter, thus completely nullifying the 700 foot Wall’s entire purpose for existing. That would seem rather stupid.

3. I don’t know that many people ever seriously considered the idea that defeating the Others would involve someone riding a Dragon into the Heart Of Winter Jeff Goldblum style in Independence Day. Bran doing something spiritual from his comfy seat in Winterfell or from the mysterious Isle of Faces seems a far more likely option, given what the Three Eyed Crow showed him way back in Book 1. With the dragons and warrior types fighting the physical battles all over Westeros to hold back the Others’ advance long enough for him to do whatever he is supposed to do.

Agree with # 1.  Agree that #3 is very likely. 

#2 - I dunno.  Sometimes I wonder if George really thought the whole thing through about the Wall's mechanics, and will have to retrofit as he goes along.  Of course if a horn can bring it down or something, he might never have to revisit some of these vexed questions. 

Still, if we go by what Ran said, the Wall's purpose is to keep ice magic away from Westeros proper.  That's interesting to me because I've aĺways wondered why the Others couldn't find a way to sneak across, and just raise dead in the South.  There's a whole town named "Barrowton" not far from the Wall suggestive of an army waiting to be reborn, no?  But if the Wall keeps ice magic out of the land (and let's presume it dissipates on the wind over the oceans), then that's not an option.  The Wall not only stops or disrupts the Other's works, like the wights, but it would do the Others no good to get around the Wall because they would then be blocked from the source of their magic.

So this would actually make the Wall pretty effective.  Wights are blocked both physically and magically from crossing. They can get through, as we saw, and once through can still be controlled, but not in any numbers. Others themselves, OTOH, might not be blocked magically but why cross if you can't bring your magic with you? Why take those ice paths with your clumsy zombie army if once you reach Westeros proper you can't make any more zombies?

Upshot is that unless the Wall comes down, the Others currently can't bring an army across.  The flip side is that if the Wall comes down, they don't have to bring an army across, they can just make one out of graveyards in the South because their magic won't be contained in the North anymore.

Is this making sense?  Thinking it through as I write.

[AlaskanSandman]

12 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Is this making sense?  Thinking it through as I write.

I do this alot hahah

Question, what about the 79 sentinels?  They're in the wall, but above ground.

Edit-Do you think they could come into play?

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

1. We know wards against wights exist. There is one protecting the Children’s cave. It seems highly logical then, that the greatest magical construct in the known world, built with the help of the Children to keep the Others out, will be able to do the same and more.

The ward protects the entrance of a cave, not a line of open land a hundred leagues long. And the cave it protects is the last home of the Children of the Forest, a place beneath an intact weirwood grove where, presumably, an unbroken line of greenseers lived since the Dawn Age. This might be a place of much stronger magic - insofar as Children magic goes - as the Wall.

The Wall is just something for men. The Children don't need it. And they seem to care about it not all that much - only insofar as they care about men. Which isn't that much. One wonders whether they would give a fig about the Others and men and their squabbles if their last greenseer didn't happen to a man - and his apprentice, too.

But I never said the Wall wasn't a protection against wights and Others. I just find it somewhat far-fetched to assume that it is some sort of impenetrable defense system that covers places that are not the Wall.

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

2. There is no evidence that this magical barrier stops at the Shadow Tower and Eastwatch. In fact, if it does not extend far into the sea, the Others and wights could just cross the pack ice that exists in the depths of a Long Night type Winter, thus completely nullifying the 700 foot Wall’s entire purpose for existing. That would seem rather stupid.

Sorry, there is also no evidence that it extends to those places, nor is there an indication that it was designed as such. We only do know the Wall works where it is, not where it is not. It is a barrier, but it is quite clear it can be circumvented. I mean, who says that the Wall has to be an ultimate defense against the Others? Perhaps it was the only thing they could build. A pretty good thing but nothing perfect.

And we don't really know why the Others didn't do anything for this long. If they like dragons as much as Silverwing might like them that is good enough of an explanation for me.

It is also a given to me that the Others will (or are already) circumventing the Wall. Winter will freeze the oceans along the coastlines and the Bridge of Skulls and the Gorge are also a way to get across (although that's likely going to be tedious).

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

3. I don’t know that many people ever seriously considered the idea that defeating the Others would involve someone riding a Dragon into the Heart Of Winter Jeff Goldblum style in Independence Day. Bran doing something spiritual from his comfy seat in Winterfell or from the mysterious Isle of Faces seems a far more likely option, given what the Three Eyed Crow showed him way back in Book 1. With the dragons and warrior types fighting the physical battles all over Westeros to hold back the Others’ advance long enough for him to do whatever he is supposed to do.

The Heart of Winter is far to interesting a place to ignore it as a location. I don't think a dragon can necessarily destroy that - perhaps even Balerion could not. There it might be far too cold in winter. It is more that an actual human being showing up there might be able to, you know, talk with whoever or whatever is there. Make a connection. A walk to that place in winter would be a joke, so if that happens it has to happen via dragon.

[Lady Barbrey]

23 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I do this alot hahah

Question, what about the 79 sentinels?  They're in the wall, but above ground.

Edit-Do you think they could come into play?

Had to Google them.  Just seems like a sad story to me, and warning to the NW.  Can't see what they would add to the main story line even if they did come into play?

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, Lady Barbrey said:

Had to Google them.  Just seems like a sad story to me, and warning to the NW.  Can't see what they would add to the main story line even if they did come into play?

They all have horns. Just made me think about waking the sleepers and blowing of horns to bring the wall down and such

[honorable men]

please let one of them be House Royce