FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

So does this all make sense if we put skinchanged animals and dragons in one group, and shadowbabies and wights in another? I mean there's no really active magic involved with those animal bonds, it's an innate supernatural quality to the skinchanger or Dragon rider.

It is all magical if you ask me.

22 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

@Lord Varys

I have never seen GRRM do an exact replica of any character.  Have you? Why do you think this should be an exception? He has chosen a few things for Alysanne from another Queen Eleanor of England, Eleanor of Castile, as well (who did have the long happy marriage, myriad kids, was known as Good Queen Eleanor, but had a uniquely bad habit for a queen of appropriating other people's lands - hello New Gift!), and probably other historical figures too. That does not mean Eleanor of Aquitaine did not inspire his character of Alysanne, and in fact George tells us she did, and when, after that remark, he gives Alysanne a unique Court of Women when Eleanor is uniquely remembered for her Court of Love,  the reason for drawing the comparison should be self-evident.

I don't deny that Eleanor played a role there, but I actually think the way she is portrayed is likely going to reflect other historical women more than Eleanor.

If you ask me, I'd say that the main connection to Eleanor is just the portrayal of the character is certain movies, and the fact that she was queen for a pretty long time.

Augustus and Livia and Justinian and Theodora might turn out to be much better templates/comparisons to Jaehaerys/Alysanne, considering the fact that they are pretty much 'the Father/Mother of Westeros' as we know it, and @Ran mentioned that Procopius' 'Secret History' was actually a significant inspiration for TWoIaF (and thus also FaB). Unless my memory is faulty on this one.

Of course not in the, well, sinister versions of I, Claudius, but rather in them being a couple sharing in power and ensuring that their will be done.

Henry II and Eleanor weren't exactly working all that well as a power couple.

@Seams

Alaric seems to more like the old Kings in the North, while there are some similarities between him and Ned, Ned most definitely didn't have Alaric's reputation with his bannermen. There is no indication that Ned doesn't laugh, that he is seen as niggardly, etc. Nor is Ned as, well, disinterested in the outside world as Alaric seems to be. 

The women's fight at White Harbor is a public spectacle, not something the men do approve of outside the, well, circus-like circumstances it happens.

[AlaskanSandman]

19 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Well, I'm certainly not likely the only one who has thought of that,but I did do a write up on Melisandre and the Night's Queen being fire and ice sorceress counterparts, one giving birth to black shadows, the other giving birth to white shadows (the Others are called white shadows in the books). The parallels and even some of the phrasing are almost uncanny when you look at them, the Red Eyed Witch and the Blue Eyed Witch.  Even their eye colour reflects their magic. One seduces Stannis, the other the Lord Commander and the phrasing of taking his seed was almost identical.  I made the point then that the difference is fire consumes, ice preserves, so the black shadows/Shadow babies are consumed in their own magic while the white shadows/Others are preserved in ice magic.

Unfortunately a number of my topic posts seem to have completely disappeared or I'd link you in.  It was called Melisandre and the Night's Queen.  Do you recall it? I haven't really posted on Westeros for 2 or 3 years so it would be at least that long ago. What am I saying, of course you don't recall it lol with the myriad posts you've likely read!  It's just sad and my own fault because I remember being told to back up posts before they did something to the site, and I just didn't bother.

Just googled and Durran Durrandon did a post called One God, Two Gods, Red God, Blue God that has almost the exact same premise.  You should be able to find it on this forum.  Cheers!  It's an excellent read.  He's the same guy who came up with the Amethyst Empress theory.

Dont know for sure if i've seen yours but i do recall the one god two god post you mentioned. There was a lot of good old threads i can't find any more or forgot the names of unfortunately. That's why even when i present an idea like Alysanne cheating at Queen'scrown, i can't be sure who else may have thought that too haha i did  a post too called a cold sheath for a hot sword about Mels birthing but mine was a lil different. Its just tough keeping every thing in scope. Especially every one else's ideas, and there are some great ones, even from people i dont enjoy talking to at all hahah 

[Lady Barbrey]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is all magical if you ask me.

I don't deny that Eleanor played a role there, but I actually think the way she is portrayed is likely going to reflect other historical women more than Eleanor.

If you ask me, I'd say that the main connection to Eleanor is just the portrayal of the character is certain movies, and the fact that she was queen for a pretty long time.

Augustus and Livia and Justinian and Theodora might turn out to be much better templates/comparisons to Jaehaerys/Alysanne, considering the fact that they are pretty much 'the Father/Mother of Westeros' as we know it, and @Ran mentioned that Procopius' 'Secret History' was actually a significant inspiration for TWoIaF (and thus also FaB). Unless my memory is faulty on this one.

Of course not in the, well, sinister versions of I, Claudius, but rather in them being a couple sharing in power and ensuring that their will be done.

Henry II and Eleanor weren't exactly working all that well as a power couple.

@Seams

Alaric seems to more like the old Kings in the North, while there are some similarities between him and Ned, Ned most definitely didn't have Alaric's reputation with his bannermen. There is no indication that Ned doesn't laugh, that he is seen as niggardly, etc. Nor is Ned as, well, disinterested in the outside world as Alaric seems to be. 

The women's fight at White Harbor is a public spectacle, not something the men do approve of outside the, well, circus-like circumstances it happens.

I watched and loved I, Claudius!  When I first started reading forums there were a number of very convincing essays comparing Tyrion to Claudius so when Dance was published, I perked right up at that dish of mushrooms Illyrio gives Tyrion, and Tyrion seemed suspicious about for some reason.  Claudius died from a dish of poisoned mushrooms.  Did you catch that?  I think George was giving a little nod to those theorists.

I will check out this 'Secret History' as I'm in the mood for a little non-fiction.  I do know a bit about the couples you mention and thought them both singularly unpleasant so maybe I've been reading the wrong books. Thanks for the recommendation.

As for the Wall, I'm a bit stymied for a theory that takes in all the bits we've been given re the various magical creatures, Storms End etc. I thought I was getting there re the Wall contains the magic in the North, which actually helped make sense of a number of things, such as why it was erected and how it actually helps, but it doesn't explain why Jon can't sense Ghost when he's North of the Wall. Could a different type of obfuscation happen in the North independent of the Wall,I wonder.

Edit to add after reading Secret History: I need a bath!  Procopius is Mushroom, I'm convinced.  That was history porn, no? You and Ran recommended porn?  Lol.Theodora was a bestiality-practicing prostitute, and Justinian a murderous genocidal Machiavellian psychopath. Jaehaerys and Alysanne are based on them..? I disavow, as a friend on another thread would say.

But it was a damned good, salacious read even if I can't find a single similarity other than the power couple thing. Perhaps there will be more in F and B.

[Damon_Tor]

On 10/3/2018 at 4:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

Then it is really strange that skinchangers, greenseers, and Melisandre can pass through the Wall.

The Wall was designed for a very specific purpose, it seems to me, unlike Storm's End which really seems to be warded against all magical attacks (although not dragons). 

Skinchangers, Greenseers and Shadowbinders are people. People aren't inherently magic: they don't need magic to survive. There are things which suggest that the wall does interfere with Skinchanging: Jon loses contact with Ghost while the wall separates them.

And to be frank, we don't have any evidence that the Wall stops Others at all. They were able to control Wights in castle black, after all. Odd that the wall seems to block skinchanging but not corpsehandling. If the wall was meant to stop the Others, allowing them to control the dead through the wall seems like a somewhat glaring weakness.

[Ran]

I think the wights weren't actively controlled. They were "programmed" and dropped off to be taken over to the other side by the Watch (as they couldn't do it under their own power) and once night fell they woke and did as they were told. That's my guess.

But it's true that people who are skinchangers and greenseers are not "creatures of magic" and the Wall should have no effect. Melisandre is the one curiousity, in that she is a mortal woman whom we have cause to believe is using magic both to sustain or prolong her life, and who may well have a glamour active. The Wall does not appear to disrupt her magic, neither when she's touching it nor when she passes through it, and she remarks nothing about feeling any weakness in her magic (quite the opposite -- she can sense the vast magic in the ice, and her own magic is amplified).

[Lady Barbrey]

2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Skinchangers, Greenseers and Shadowbinders are people. People aren't inherently magic: they don't need magic to survive. There are things which suggest that the wall does interfere with Skinchanging: Jon loses contact with Ghost while the wall separates them.

And to be frank, we don't have any evidence that the Wall stops Others at all. They were able to control Wights in castle black, after all. Odd that the wall seems to block skinchanging but not corpsehandling. If the wall was meant to stop the Others, allowing them to control the dead through the wall seems like a somewhat glaring weakness.

Yes it is odd, and I also am beginning to believe the Others can cross, just not their magic nor, unless brought across, their wights.

[Lady Barbrey]

10 hours ago, Ran said:

I think the wights weren't actively controlled. They were "programmed" and dropped off to be taken over to the other side by the Watch (as they couldn't do it under their own power) and once night fell they woke and did as they were told. That's my guess.

But it's true that people who are skinchangers and greenseers are not "creatures of magic" and the Wall should have no effect. Melisandre is the one curiousity, in that she is a mortal woman whom we have cause to believe is using magic both to sustain or prolong her life, and who may well have a glamour active. The Wall does not appear to disrupt her magic, neither when she's touching it nor when she passes through it, and she remarks nothing about feeling any weakness in her magic (quite the opposite -- she can sense the vast magic in the ice, and her own magic is amplified).

Curiouser and curiouser.  If programmed, they seem capable of some independent thought, or the programmer knew the layout inside well enough to program them on details. They were rangers, perhaps some shreds of intelligence remain, so they knew where to find Mormont; or perhaps the Others have gathered intelligence in the wighting process from those familiar with the Wall; or perhaps they're being programmed by an Other familiar with the layout- looking at you, Benjen Stark!

Mel did feel some restrictions at Storm's End though I'm going to look at that bit again. Are you suggesting that she's somehow unique and doesn't have to abide by the same rules as everyone else at the Wall? 

A simple explanation is what we were positing earlier: Storm's End guards against all spells including those derived from fire magic - built perhaps at a different time than the Wall, a time when fire magic was a thing - whereas the Wall was erected when fire magic wasn't a thing, or erected by fire magic users!, so it therefore disrupts only ice and earth magic.

Seems doubtful, but it would be kind of fun and interesting if those thousands of years of ice at the Wall are covering fused black stone like at Oldtown instead of the granite I'd expect.

And the Five Forts, which seem to be the Essos version of the Wall.

Oh, of course.

Funny because I've been arguing for a common ancestry for Starks and Valyrians and Daynes since forever.

Bran the Builder (descended from the Last Hero, who was changed to bond with dragons) was a proto-Valyrian Stark and built the Wall using dragons to fuse the stone, and fire magic in the spells to contain ice magic to the North. The Wall is in effect, fire magic, in a shell of ice magic to preserve, like a huge slab of obsidian, or like Jon's dream image of himself, fire for offense in the sword, cloaked in black ice armour to preserve. Cool.

I hope that's it anyway.  I always imagined oily black stone was a form of petrified wood or hardened carbon when even wood structures at Asshai and elsewhere, as a last resort, had the life leached out of them from magic over use.  Related to grayscale, life being sucked out of humans with the great Rhoynar magic, almost petrifying them, to feed the magic. And it's still leeching life as a disease.  Life pays for magic.

I always knew fused black stone was likely proto-Valyrians but I forgot my own post showing how the east of Essos mirrors Westeros, so if the 5 Forts without ice are fused black stone, then the Wall should be too. And maybe the oldest parts of Winterfell?  The crypts that are unusually cold - is something confining ice magic to the crypts?  

 

[Faera]

As always I am late to the party and typing up on something less practical than a computer (I hope you are proud, @Curled Finger! ). So, now that I have finished thinking too much about this except I decided to shared some thoughts.

Firstly, Alysanne's "rainbow tour" of the North:

Spoiler

 

1. The juxtaposition of the Manderlys greeting of the Queen vs the more restrained and frugal Starks. Although I have never doubted that the the former is loyal to the latter I really do find it interesting how much the wealth and southern culture of White Habour is played up here, complete with mini journeys and massive greetings at the port town. The Manderlys do appreciate showing their power and I feel that the Starks willingness to let them just go about their business, accepting favours of the Queen, as well as the practical side of keeping their faith of the seven as opposed to the old gods shows the double-edged sword. It helped me understand further why the Manderlys are so gosh darn loyal because they have so much and perceive it all as a gift from the Starks. In the other hand, it makes me question the situation we have in the books currently and the suspicion that Wyman getting hold of Rickon might not be a good things simply because allowing the Manderlys that much clout would put the other principle house's noses out of joint, at least for the Eastern principle houses.
2. It shows this remarkable "Stark mystique" that even the most different, supposedly tight-fisted Starks succeed in maintaining the northern stability. Everyone agrees Alaric is a stick in the mud who does not stand in ceremony but he's a very suitable leader in the sense that he's all about the practicalities of resources and stores ahead of the clearly incoming winter season.
3. Weirdly liked the confirmation of a Mormont Lady of Winterfell who is as much of a (literal) battleaxe as the current Lady of Bear Island Maege and her daughters. It has me thinking about the types of wives the different Lords of Winterfell tend to pick. For the most part they do seem to be daughters of the principle houses though I wonder if the occasional breaks in tradition where a Royce, Blackwood or even Manderly bridge have been picked due to the Starks at the time being more inclined to engage with southern politics (unlike Alaric here who seems suspicious of taking marriages outside those that keep the old gods - it'll be interesting to know whether his kids agreed to Alysanne playing matchmaker). 

 

Secondly, Silverwing...

Spoiler

 

...Noping right out of going beyond the Wall.

[The] queen herself noted that Silverwing “does not like this Wall.” Though it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap. “Thrice I flew Silverwing high above Castle Black, and thrice I tried to take her north beyond the Wall,” Alysanne wrote to Jaehaerys, “but every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where I wished to go. I laughed about it when I came down again, so the black brothers would not realize anything was amiss, but it troubled me then and it troubles me still.”

...I really got a "beginning of AGoT" fibe from this detail, which makes me wonder if that is why it was chosen as the pre-release peak at the book. They are in the last days of summer, it seems. The Wall is weeping yet as Alaric says, "Winter is coming." ...and with them comes the Others?

I know a few people have suggested that it was more about protecting Alysanne than any sixth sense but, while I definitely think that's one of the reasons she did it, my first instinct was that she instinctively knows that she shouldn't be there. It was my first instinct that there might be something more intuitive about Silverwing's refusal to go beyond Castle Black. Ergo, Siverwing knows that the Others are nearby and she refused point blank to go much further than Castle Black because she can sense them and knows not to knows not to trespass into the Others' realm.

 

 

[Curled Finger]

15 minutes ago, Faera said:

As always I am late to the party and typing up on something less practical than a computer (I hope you are proud, @Curled Finger! ). So, now that I have finished thinking too much about this except I decided to shared some thoughts.

Firstly, Alysanne's "rainbow tour" of the North:

  Hide contents

 

1. The juxtaposition of the Manderlys greeting of the Queen vs the more restrained and frugal Starks. Although I have never doubted that the the former is loyal to the latter I really do find it interesting how much the wealth and southern culture of White Habour is played up here, complete with mini journeys and massive greetings at the port town. The Manderlys do appreciate showing their power and I feel that the Starks willingness to let them just go about their business, accepting favours of the Queen, as well as the practical side of keeping their faith of the seven as opposed to the old gods shows the double-edged sword. It helped me understand further why the Manderlys are so gosh darn loyal because they have so much and perceive it all as a gift from the Starks. In the other hand, it makes me question the situation we have in the books currently and the suspicion that Wyman getting hold of Rickon might not be a good things simply because allowing the Manderlys that much clout would put the other principle house's noses out of joint, at least for the Eastern principle houses.
2. It shows this remarkable "Stark mystique" that even the most different, supposedly tight-fisted Starks succeed in maintaining the northern stability. Everyone agrees Alaric is a stick in the mud who does not stand in ceremony but he's a very suitable leader in the sense that he's all about the practicalities of resources and stores ahead of the clearly incoming winter season.
3. Weirdly liked the confirmation of a Mormont Lady of Winterfell who is as much of a (literal) battleaxe as the current Lady of Bear Island Maege and her daughters. It has me thinking about the types of wives the different Lords of Winterfell tend to pick. For the most part they do seem to be daughters of the principle houses though I wonder if the occasional breaks in tradition where a Royce, Blackwood or even Manderly bridge have been picked due to the Starks at the time being more inclined to engage with southern politics (unlike Alaric here who seems suspicious of taking marriages outside those that keep the old gods - it'll be interesting to know whether his kids agreed to Alysanne playing matchmaker). 

 

Secondly, Silverwing...

  Hide contents

 

...Noping right out of going beyond the Wall.

[The] queen herself noted that Silverwing “does not like this Wall.” Though it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap. “Thrice I flew Silverwing high above Castle Black, and thrice I tried to take her north beyond the Wall,” Alysanne wrote to Jaehaerys, “but every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where I wished to go. I laughed about it when I came down again, so the black brothers would not realize anything was amiss, but it troubled me then and it troubles me still.”

...I really got a "beginning of AGoT" fibe from this detail, which makes me wonder if that is why it was chosen as the pre-release peak at the book. They are in the last days of summer, it seems. The Wall is weeping yet as Alaric says, "Winter is coming." ...and with them comes the Others?

I know a few people have suggested that it was more about protecting Alysanne than any sixth sense but, while I definitely think that's one of the reasons she did it, my first instinct was that she instinctively knows that she shouldn't be there. It was my first instinct that there might be something more intuitive about Silverwing's refusal to go beyond Castle Black. Ergo, Siverwing knows that the Others are nearby and she refused point blank to go much further than Castle Black because she can sense them and knows not to knows not to trespass into the Others' realm.

 

 

You are such a professional, Faera.  Good on you for posting your always interesting thought provoking and often untouched upon subject matter.   Sure have me considering mermen among wolves and Blackwoods in the South.  In that these exiles happened long ago, I wonder if some sort of North/South balance had to be maintained in these families making their homes so far from where they began.   While I understand the Blackwood settlement to an extent--Gads! It's got to be warmer in the Riverlands if nothing else.  (I'm thinking that giant dead weirwood might have played some part in the settlement in the Riverlands.) But of all the places the Manderleys could have gone, why the frigid North.   Much is made of the Starks accepting them and so on, but I think it's only now sinking in that this family was really unpopular in rock star proportions.   Personally, I would have tried Dorne out, but really anywhere except the North had to be a better alternative than the North--unless there were no alternatives.   Still the Manderlys have done just fine and in fact flourished.   They seem to have allies--how easy can it possibly be to work with those crazy Umbers over hundreds of miles?  Good stuff to ponder, Faera.   

[Seams]

On 10/7/2018 at 2:03 PM, Faera said:

The juxtaposition of the Manderlys greeting of the Queen vs the more restrained and frugal Starks. Although I have never doubted that the the former is loyal to the latter I really do find it interesting how much the wealth and southern culture of White Habour is played up here, complete with mini journeys and massive greetings at the port town. The Manderlys do appreciate showing their power and I feel that the Starks willingness to let them just go about their business, accepting favours of the Queen, as well as the practical side of keeping their faith of the seven as opposed to the old gods shows the double-edged sword. It helped me understand further why the Manderlys are so gosh darn loyal because they have so much and perceive it all as a gift from the Starks. In the other hand, it makes me question the situation we have in the books currently and the suspicion that Wyman getting hold of Rickon might not be a good things simply because allowing the Manderlys that much clout would put the other principle house's noses out of joint, at least for the Eastern principle houses.

Secondly, Silverwing...

...Noping right out of going beyond the Wall.

...

I know a few people have suggested that it was more about protecting Alysanne than any sixth sense but, while I definitely think that's one of the reasons she did it, my first instinct was that she instinctively knows that she shouldn't be there. It was my first instinct that there might be something more intuitive about Silverwing's refusal to go beyond Castle Black. Ergo, Silverwing knows that the Others are nearby and she refused point blank to go much further than Castle Black because she can sense them and knows not to knows not to trespass into the Others' realm.

There is a lot of meaning in the ASOIAF series and in literature in general in crossing a river - the ancient Greeks had the River Styx, for instance, forming the boundary between the underworld and the world of the living. In The Sworn Sword, Ser Eustace Osgrey can't cross the stream he calls the Chequey Water until Dunk kills Ser Lucas Inchfield in the river. Another obvious example is Robb Stark getting permission to cross at The Twins but being assassinated next time he returns to the Trident River. The Manderly family is named after the River Mander. I think we are seeing Queen Alysanne figuratively crossing a river when she arrives in the North and goes through the Manderlys to get to the Starks. Her crossing is glorious - it seems the river likes her.

If the North is a type of Underworld (or, at least, an Otherworld) it's interesting that the Starks chose to settle the Manderlys at the mouth of the harbor - perhaps they wanted gatekeepers who would be more welcoming to people arriving from the south. Close the Stark-operated Wolf's Den and instead install a merry old merman at the mouth of the river.

Later we see Davos Seaworth having to "cross" the Manderlys to get to the far north. The three Frey emissaries don't survive the crossing, although they do arrive in the North, in a manner of speaking.

It might explain why Lord Manderly was written as a character who can't ride a horse. It would be absurd for a river to ride a horse. On the other hand, we have a Mountain that Rides and a Stallion that Mounts the World. Maybe we will eventually see a river that rides.

Understanding the gatekeeping function of the House Manderly might also help us to better understand House Reed and the meaning of crossing the Neck. White Harbor and The Neck are the two primary entrances to the north, I believe. Until Theon and the other ships sent by Euron enter from the west coast, right? But approaching from that coast is somewhat unusual, as I understand it. Oh and the Three Sisters - another rarely-used way of approaching The North.

What other gatekeepers do we see? The junior branch of House Royce at the Gates of the Moon. The Freys appear to be the gatekeepers for people coming from the North into the Riverlands, although they must also collect tolls from people heading north.

But some places don't have gatekeepers per se. Storm's End is impregnable, we are told, except when Davos Seaworth finds a way in. Davos is one of the people who is able to cross these borders and barriers. His presence is the reason that Melisandre is able to get past the magic ward on the fortress. She attributes the subsequent strengthening of her power to proximity to the Wall, but I wonder whether she is mistaken: her powers are magnified because Davos took her across a barrier. As I mentioned earlier, we see Ser Jorah similarly gain strength when he crosses a wall (at Pyke) with Thoros of Myr, and Ser Gregor take on some new superpowers (ability to behead a horse and to live without his own head) after scaling a wall at the Red Keep with Amory Lorch.

I agree that the Silverwing incident has a vibe that compares with an early scene in AGoT: Robb finds the litter of direwolf pups near a bridge, and everyone remarks that direwolves have not been seen below the Wall in anyone's lifetime. We don't know what it is, but something special and unique allowed the mother direwolf to cross. I think we are seeing a set-up with Silverwing that will help us to recognize when something special and unique occurs again, allowing a different dragon to make the crossing. Maybe it will be a connection with the right guide character, maybe it will be an event, such as relocating a friendly river to an entrance point. I'm thinking, too, about Nimble Dick, who took Brienne and Pod to Crackclaw point - with a dragon (coin). But maybe a living dragon will finally cross the Wall because of the destruction of the Wall itself.

As I was re-reading the passage you cited, I was thinking of the opening lines from Mending Wall, a poem by Robert Frost:

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,

That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,

And spills the upper boulders in the sun; . . .

 

Frost also wrote the poem Fire and Ice that, I believe, GRRM has mentioned as an inspiration for the series title.

 

P.S. I think this gatekeeper idea might help to make sense of Bowen Marsh. He is a gatekeeper because Jon Snow puts him in charge of collecting tolls from the wildlings as they make their way below the Wall. Coincidentally, he is also a bannerman of House Reed, I believe. Bowen Marsh also leads an (apparently successful?) attack on The Weeper, the creepy wildling who cuts the eyes out of Night's Watch men when he kills them. The skirmish takes place at the Bridge of Skulls, a seldom-used gate that is west even of the Shadow Tower. Like Davos, I think Bowen Marsh is a gatekeeper with a unique set of skills. It's possible that the Weeper is a symbolic personification of the Wall itself, which is often described as weeping. (And I know no one wants to hear the explanation again about ice and eyes being related through wordplay. But think about "the Wall" as taking the eyes from people who are supposed to be watching - the Night's Watch. Bowen Marsh slays that eye-taker, presumably ensuring that the remaining Night's Watch brothers will get to keep their eyes; better yet, maybe he is symbolically "restoring vision" to people who have been blinded. For the Watch.) In other words, I think these gatekeepers get to reveal information or deliver people to places they otherwise could not reach.

[LynnS]

On 9/30/2018 at 2:45 AM, Ran said:

Different magic, different rules for them. They don't have the blue eyes and black hands, either.

Mel couldn't pass the magic barrier at Storm's End.  Davos had to transport her while she carried Stannis's shadowbaby.  This seems to be a similar condition to bringing Othor and Jafr across the Wall.  What's the connection?  Mel doesn't have a problem with Wall's magic otherwise.  It seems she can use it in some fashion to strenghten her own magic.  I think we see this when she overextends herself and nearly combusts at Rattleshirt's burning.  She's also glamoring a sword and the great horn.  The description of the Wall as seen by Jon is interesting:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

 

Mel's ruby pulses with light:

Quote

 

  A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"The Horn of Joramun?" Melisandre said. "No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen! The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn." She swept a hand toward Stannis, and the great ruby at her throat pulsed with light.

 

I'm starting to think the the magic sword is the Wall itself and Lightbringer is the one who can use it's power.

[Ran]

LynnS,

 

Right. Melisandre's shadow baby couldn't pass the barrier, which is why she needed to be transported within then walls. So, still, a creature or creation of magic thing somehow.

[Seams]

One more thought about this "crossing river" theory: the Torrhen Stark encounter with Aegon the Conqueror was on the banks of the Trident. When Stark saw that he couldn't win, and when his scouts reported on the state of Harrenhal (as mentioned again by Alaric Stark in this new excerpt), Torrhen used his half-brother to negotiate terms and then HE crossed the river TO Aegon; he didn't invite Aegon into the North. 

I bet there is some kind of parable in this Torrhen / Aegon deal that repeats with Alaric's greeting of Alysanne. Maybe one of Torrhen's conditions for bending the knee was that dragons would never enter the walls of Winterfell and/or not be allowed beyond the Wall. I'm not sure how Aegon would magically enforce that condition - with the help of sorceress Visenya, maybe? - but maybe that's why Silverwing couldn't cross. 

Alysanne is pretty savvy, though, as we see her negotiating marriage alliances and helping the Night's Watch with resources. Maybe this bastard child (or two) that I strongly suspect she had in the North was, at least in part, a strategic decision. Alysanne may have known that a Stark - Targ hybrid was necessary to move freely across the Wall, rivers, etc.

We don't know much about Torrhen's bastard brother, Brandon Snow, but he crossed the river before Torrhen did and helped negotiate the terms (with three maesters). Maybe there is something about bastard blood that has special magic for crossing or breaking barriers. 

[Jussi]

Photos of the UK edition of Fire and Blood:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81rsA0%2BTHtL.jpg

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91vQcijgtML.jpg

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71fsM%2BYc%2BIL.jpg

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71GgqvZwHmL.jpg

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81vzhV8hIqL.jpg

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81G1p54l7gL.jpg

[zionius]

The opened page gives us a glimpse of the time of Jaehaerys I.

During childhood, Prince Baelon (4th son) was attached to his older brother Aemon (3rd son), and Maegelle (6th daughter) to her sister Alyssa (5th daughter).

It seems Prince Aemon and his wife-to-be Jocelyn Baratheon got along well as "young people". Sometime later, Maegelle was born. So maybe Maegelle is 10+ years younger than Aemon.

The newly-added Dany(2nd daughter) wasn't mentioned. She's probably dead by the time Maegelle was born.

Jaehaerys I planned to build roads after Maegelle's birth, so her birth is before the 58 AC visit to the North.

It seems Aemon is a few years older than Baelon, and Alyssa a few years older than Maegelle. Give Daella (8th daughter) was born no later than 66 AC, and the North visit in 58 AC, I'd assume the first eight children of Jaehaerys I were born around 51, 52, 53, 56, 60, 63, 64, 65 AC, respectively.

The page header says "GRRM", which is a little out-of-world. I'd rather it be Jaehaerys I/Gyldayn.

 

[zionius]

The First Quarrel lasted 1~2 years. If it already happened by the time of Maegelle's birth, there're 2 likely candidates, choosing among the gaps of the birth years of their children.

1. Around 54 AC, a few years after Dany's birth. I guess GRRM has some reason to change Aeryn to her, and it's probably related to her female identity.

2. Around 59 AC, after the visit to the North. ASOS says Alysanne and Jaehaerys visited Winterfell together. GRRM changed that setting in the preview. He might have some reason. (They could come together in a second Winterfell visit, though.) An affair between Alysanne and Alaric Stark could be the cause of the First Quarrel.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, zionius said:

It seems Prince Aemon and his wife-to-be Jocelyn Baratheon got along well as "young people". Sometime later, Maegelle was born. So maybe Maegelle is 10+ years younger than Aemon.

Difficult to say while we don't know how how old either Aemon or Jocelyn were. But the whole thing indicates Jocelyn and Aemon were indeed a love match, not an arranged thing - or if it was arranged then their love was arranged, too ;-).

6 hours ago, zionius said:

The newly-added Dany(2nd daughter) wasn't mentioned. She's probably dead by the time Maegelle was born.

Could be. But there is no list of all the children there. Alyssa and Baelon are mentioned because Maegelle behaves the same way Alyssa and Baelon when they were young.

6 hours ago, zionius said:

Jaehaerys I planned to build roads after Maegelle's birth, so her birth is before the 58 AC visit to the North.

On what do you base this idea? Are any roads (especially the Kingsroad) mentioned in the excerpt about Alysanne's journey in the North? I'd be flabbergasted if George tried to sell us the idea that the Kingsroad was already finished before 58 AC. That would be ridiculous. Not to mention the other roads.

6 hours ago, zionius said:

It seems Aemon is a few years older than Baelon, and Alyssa a few years older than Maegelle. Give Daella (8th daughter) was born no later than 66 AC, and the North visit in 58 AC, I'd assume the first eight children of Jaehaerys I were born around 51, 52, 53, 56, 60, 63, 64, 65 AC, respectively.

That is a rather daring speculation given the information we have at this point.

1 hour ago, zionius said:

The First Quarrel lasted 1~2 years. If it already happened by the time of Maegelle's birth, there're 2 likely candidates, choosing among the gaps of the birth years of their children.

I don't think we have any reason at this point to assume the First Quarrel was this early. Even if it were, I don't see them having so many children this early you lay out there above if a rather severe issue separated them for a considerable time. They were separated during the Northern progress, too, for months at that. It is not unlikely that they were living separate like this more often, with Alysanne managing affairs at home while Jaehaerys traveled the Realm (or vice versa).

[zionius]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But there is no list of all the children there.

It "happens" only the first two children who died before adulthood arenot mentioned.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

On what do you base this idea? Are any roads (especially the Kingsroad) mentioned in the excerpt about Alysanne's journey in the North? I'd be flabbergasted if George tried to sell us the idea that the Kingsroad was already finished before 58 AC. That would be ridiculous. Not to mention the other roads.

A typo Should be "after" 58 AC. I estimated her birth at ~63 AC.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a rather daring speculation given the information we have at this point

If the birth year of Daella remains unchanged (she died in 82 AC, so was born before 66 AC), it's just a matter of choosing 8 figures from a span of 16 years (51-66 AC). The estimation won't be far from fact.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, zionius said:

It "happens" only the first two children who died before adulthood arenot mentioned.

We don't know that Daenerys died before adulthood. Aeryn apparently did, but Aeryn isn't Daenerys, no? The context is that children liking/hanging out with each other, not a complete list of the born ones. It might be a hint that Aegon and Daenerys were already dead - or not.

Keep in mind that there would have been no sister around for Aemon to marry, explaining the Jocelyn match, if Aegon and Daenerys had still been around and were betrothed to each other.

12 minutes ago, zionius said:

A typo Should be "after" 58 AC. I estimated her birth at ~63 AC.

Yeah, that makes sense, especially since the page indicates that the king's first grand projects that had already been mentioned by Gyldayn had something to do with KL - I can make out 'cobblestones' there, and I think one of the blurred words there might be 'fountains'. That would indicate that a considerable portion of the 50s had to do with rebuilding KL, at least in part, and adding those innovations we know from TWoIaF.

And I really want to know whether they still exist or not. Hopefully some character mentions or points them out in TWoW.

12 minutes ago, zionius said:

If the birth year of Daella remains unchanged (she died in 82 AC, so was born before 66 AC), it's just a matter of choosing 8 figures from a span of 16 years (51-66 AC). The estimation won't be far from fact.

Oh, I just find it very daring to assume they had three children in the first three years of their marriage. That sounds a lot for girl who only turned fourteen in 50 AC.

[zionius]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know that Daenerys died before adulthood. Aeryn apparently did, but Aeryn isn't Daenerys, no?

IIRC, Ran said GRRM changed his mind on the children who died before adulthood, but the stories of other children remained pretty much the same.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I can make out 'cobblestones' there, and I think one of the blurred words there might be 'fountains'.

We have a full transcription here.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I just find it very daring to assume they had three children in the first three years of their marriage.

Just a rough estimate, every figure could well have an error of 1~3 years.